Afghanistan

[Wilber]

Do you believe that Reagan should have stayed in Lebanon? That Nixon should have stayed in Vietnam? That Clinton should have stayed in Somalia? Or were the right decisions to get out made?

Neither Lebanon, Vietnam or Somalia attacked the US on its own soil. The people being fought in Afghanistan did and will do again if they get a chance. That is one reason this is a NATO operation. An attack on one member is an attack on all. Maybe some members are not willing to keep that commitment but I am glad Canada is.

[jdobbin]

Neither Lebanon, Vietnam or Somalia attacked the US on its own soil. The people being fought in Afghanistan did and will do again if they get a chance. That is one reason this is a NATO operation. An attack on one member is an attack on all. Maybe some members are not willing to keep that commitment but I am glad Canada is.

Which Taliban attacked the U.S. on its own soil?

And isn't Pakistan based al Qaeda responsible for the latest attacks and attempted attacks?

[jdobbin]

Here's what Eric Margolis has to say on the issue.

http://www.ericmargolis.com/

August 21 article.

[Wilber]

Neither Lebanon, Vietnam or Somalia attacked the US on its own soil. The people being fought in Afghanistan did and will do again if they get a chance. That is one reason this is a NATO operation. An attack on one member is an attack on all. Maybe some members are not willing to keep that commitment but I am glad Canada is.

Which Taliban attacked the U.S. on its own soil?

And isn't Pakistan based al Qaeda responsible for the latest attacks and attempted attacks?

Al Qaeda aided abetted by the Taliban, operating out of bases in an Afghanistan ruled by a Taliban government. Are you naive enough to believe that the same situation wouldn't exist if the Taliban were to rule Afghanistan again? The situation in Pakistan is not a good one but at least the government is giving some help. What do you think the chances are of a Taliban government in Afghanistan giving the same kind of assistance as the Pakistani government in uncovering the recent UK plot?

[jbg]

What do you think the chances are of a Taliban government in Afghanistan giving the same kind of assistance as the Pakistani government in uncovering the recent UK plot?

I agree with your thrust, but you can be sure that Pakistan's "cooperation" was overlayed with some kind of tribal intrigue.

[Wilber]

What do you think the chances are of a Taliban government in Afghanistan giving the same kind of assistance as the Pakistani government in uncovering the recent UK plot?

I agree with your thrust, but you can be sure that Pakistan's "cooperation" was overlayed with some kind of tribal intrigue.

Does it matter? The point is, if it had been a Taliban government, we would have found out about it when the bombs went off.

[daddyhominum]

The threat to Afghanistan and Iraq are not simply internal threats on security. The insurgents are well financed, broadly supported by an ideology that calls for establishment of rigid theocracies in all Muslim lands first and in the balance of the world as it becomes practical with out regard to cost in life or treasure.

The situation in Iraq is quickly becoming like a civil war. There's no business being there if the country begins fighting with itself. At the moment, 100 people a day are being killed. It is starting to become sectarian violence.

Afghanistan still might have a hope but there is no way that any country can afford to fight a 20 or 30 of 40 year war there.

I suppose it is a civil war to the extent that most of the fighters are Afghan nationals. But it also has elements of a defensive war against an invading force because fighters have entered the country to fight for the Taliban and the NATO forces are there to support the current government.

The reason is that there are two political ideologies competing for the support of the population because the radical form of Islam is also a strict political ideology where rule is the privelege of the religious leaders as it is in Iran today.

So this is just another war of competing ideologies where one says that people need to be ruled over by an elite and the rest of us say that people need to be able to select their leaders and make their laws by vote.

It is not a lot different from the war between the Fascists and the democracies or the Cold War between the democracies and the 'dictatorship of the proletariat'.

It is a civil war locally but there is an ideological war between the polical goals of radical Islamists and the democratic interests in human rights, rule of secular law, and governance by the people.

[Army Guy]

jdobbin:

Non-Canadian casualties are often not reported in Canadian newspapers. There is generally an out of sight out of mind attitude about the situation over there. Overall casualties like the deaths of 10 Afghan policemen never make it into most newspapers. My point of posting the casualties is that when the U.S. starts talking about how the situation is improving, it sounds like they are talking out of their hats. More than a year ago, Afghanistan had barely seen the likes of suicide bombers. Now it is de riguer. Roadside bombs were unusual whereas more than a year ago it was mines. The fight has changed, is changing and could change some more before we see the last of it.

For the most part coverage in Canadian media has been very good, reporting the cas numbers of all involved in the conflict, as you seen in the CBC coverage.

The US are not the only ones quoting the situation is improving, so is the Canadians, so our our soldiers, Things are getting better, across most of the country, everything you hear in the news is about the south, as NATO has opened up new bases thier right in the heart of Taliban territory, but one must keep track of the whole country, opening of schools and hospitals in the north or kabul, do not sell many papers,

Yes thier tactics are changing and so is ours, thats the nature of war, what works today may not work tommorow.

We forget that the Taliban use to have an army , and airforce, in fact at the start of this conflict they flew over 20 mig-21 a/c commanded hundards of tanks, apc's with helicopter support. and today are back to the mountains with donkeys and sandals. they used to number 100,000 plus, todays est is well under 1000 i'd personally put that number at 10 times that but i have no proof. So is there progress being made you tell me ?

Please cites your source that most of the revenue for the insurgency is not coming from opium. That is now what the NATO briefing said last month. They said that the insurgency was able to pay fighters $400 a month because of opium sales.

I think you'll be surprise at who is actually giving funding to the Taliban.

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The Taliban do not have the manpower base to control Afgans opuim trade, yes they are making money off it, but they are into alot of black market themes.

Most of the opuim trade is now controled by independant war lords, which are not tied to the taliban but rather in it for thier own profit.

I supported the mission to Afghanistan to remove al Qaeda as a threat. We stayed to get elections off the ground and have a democratically elected government put in place and train the military. The mission started to change then to an offensive against the Taliban for the Canadians and for NATO. This looked like it could present long term problems because it meant that we would be doing the majority of the fighting in what is looking like a civil war.

Elections did happen but the south was controled by the taliban, in such numbers that the Afgan army and police could not combat by themselfs hence why NATO has more presence in the south now, taking the fight directly to taliban controled areas.

That being said we are not doing a majority of the fighting ,most of the fighting is being done by the afgan army with NATO in a supporting role. such as with the last attack. We are making a difference every day we get stronger and they get weaker.

Do you believe that Reagan should have stayed in Lebanon? That Nixon should have stayed in Vietnam? That Clinton should have stayed in Somalia? Or were the right decisions to get out made?

Lets just take a look at these countries today shall we, lebanon most of the south is in rubble, do you think that would have happened if the US had stuck with keeping the peace what would it have looked like today, would we have had the Hezbullah..I think those examples you cite are examples of what happens when the west does not stay the course and abandons the mission after it gets to tough. solving these problems takes dacades and we do not have the will to stay the course.

None of these countries are better off in fact they are worse.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear jdobbin,

Please cites your source that most of the revenue for the insurgency is not coming from opium. That is now what the NATO briefing said last month. They said that the insurgency was able to pay fighters $400 a month because of opium sales.

The Taliban (pre invasion) had virtually stopped opium production in Afghanistan. The claim that they were 'druglords', or funded by drug money, was simply a ploy by the media and gov't to make them look as bad as possible, even if certain 'facts' were not true.

from...

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/newsletter_2001..._1_page002.html

Farmers in Afghanistan, the world's number one producer of opium poppy, did not plant the illegal crop this year. Following a ban on poppy cultivation issued by the head of the Taliban in July 2000, UNDCP was able to verify thousands of hectares of poppy-free land in February 2001.

Hardly the actions of those who want to make money from it.

[Charles Anthony]

Please cites your source that most of the revenue for the insurgency is not coming from opium. That is now what the NATO briefing said last month. They said that the insurgency was able to pay fighters $400 a month because of opium sales.

Several Muslim faiths fighting is the definition of sectarian violence. The Taliban are sectarian in their beliefs and destroy all other sects of their faith through violence. Afghanis ultimately will have to fight that battle, not us.

I believe you hit on a foreign motivation that people are afraid to consider: non-Afghanis may want a piece of the opium action.

I think you'll be surprise at who is actually giving funding to the Taliban.

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The Taliban do not have the manpower base to control Afgans opuim trade, yes they are making money off it, but they are into alot of black market themes.

Most of the opuim trade is now controled by independant war lords, which are not tied to the taliban but rather in it for thier own profit.

I read all three of those articles and they come down to two things: opium and source-of-terrorism. Those are the only things they say are traded out of Afghanistan.

The Taliban (pre invasion) had virtually stopped opium production in Afghanistan. The claim that they were 'druglords', or funded by drug money, was simply a ploy by the media and gov't to make them look as bad as possible, even if certain 'facts' were not true.

OK. Answer this: why are so many foreigners interested in Afghanistan???

What national resource does Afghanistan possess that is so commercially interesting???

Are the lands of Afghanistan sooooooooo fertile that all other countries want to breed and cultivate terrorists there?

from...

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/newsletter_2001..._1_page002.htmlHardly the actions of those who want to make money from it.

I read that old article too and it also states:

Since 1999, Afghanistan has produced approximately 75 per cent of the world's opium cultivated on 91,000 hectares in 1999 and 82,000 hectares in 2000. A survey team led by the UNDCP regional office in Islamabad visited 80 per cent of the known poppy growing areas in the 51 districts known to have produced 86 per cent of last year's crop. The team found less than 30 hectares of poppy which were later eradicated. This signals the potential reduction of opium poppy cultivation in Afghanistan by at least 70,000 hectares this year.

If that is true, I would expect foreign interests to collide. It really sounds like a great reason to start an other great world war.

[Army Guy]

believe you hit on a foreign motivation that people are afraid to consider: non-Afghanis may want a piece of the opium action.

Is that why where over there for, a piece of the drug trade. Give me a break...

read all three of those articles and they come down to two things: opium and source-of-terrorism. Those are the only things they say are traded out of Afghanistan.

from the first link:

Much of the funding came through a black-market banking system called hawala, which is common throughout the Middle East and South Asia. But Mr. Hamidullah says that Pakistan generally sent its money by hand, using ISI officers. "During Taliban times, Pakistani colonels would bring money to support Taliban soldiers," he says.

Today's Taliban continues to receive funding, he adds, some of it from rich Arab donors, but much of it from the intelligence agencies of Russia, Iran, and Pakistan. "There are some countries that are against the polices of the US and the United Nations, and they support the guerrillas. The most important role belongs to Russia, Iran, and Pakistan."

The second link:

does not mention the drug trade at all in fact it suggests that the russians are not happy with the US being in that region, nothing about opium...

The third link :

again explains how the black market system works nothing about opium.

So how do you come up with the only 2 things traded out of Afgan is opium and terror. Am i missing something ?

[jdobbin]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...ery=Eugene+Lang

Opinion piece on Afghanistan in the Globe and Mail Tuesday.

[jdobbin]

Al Qaeda aided abetted by the Taliban, operating out of bases in an Afghanistan ruled by a Taliban government. Are you naive enough to believe that the same situation wouldn't exist if the Taliban were to rule Afghanistan again? The situation in Pakistan is not a good one but at least the government is giving some help. What do you think the chances are of a Taliban government in Afghanistan giving the same kind of assistance as the Pakistani government in uncovering the recent UK plot?

No, I'm not naive to think the Taliban might let them set up bases again if they were the government. But I'm also not naive enough to think that we might win a civil war there either.

[jdobbin]

I think you'll be surprise at who is actually giving funding to the Taliban.

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These links are three years out of date. I am talking about the fuinding that was described on CTV. It said that a huge crop of opium *this* year had contributed to the Taliban's war and that they are able to pay $400 a month to fighter over the summer. This is the first sumemr they have ever fought a war in.

Check out the Globe article on the summer fight.

[Wilber]

Al Qaeda aided abetted by the Taliban, operating out of bases in an Afghanistan ruled by a Taliban government. Are you naive enough to believe that the same situation wouldn't exist if the Taliban were to rule Afghanistan again? The situation in Pakistan is not a good one but at least the government is giving some help. What do you think the chances are of a Taliban government in Afghanistan giving the same kind of assistance as the Pakistani government in uncovering the recent UK plot?

No, I'm not naive to think the Taliban might let them set up bases again if they were the government. But I'm also not naive enough to think that we might win a civil war there either.

We can't win a civil war there by ourselves but we would be stupid not to support the side that is most likely to act in our best interests, rather than leave the place at the mercy of those we know will try to attack us. That alone is a reason to be there, never mind trying to protect the average Afghani from these people and helping them to rebuild their country.

[Charles Anthony]

So how do you come up with the only 2 things traded out of Afgan is opium and terror. Am i missing something ?

Yes. You are missing something. What you are missing is any other production being traded out of Afghanistan. Give me a third one. Give me a reason for why those nations are interested in black market trade. Saying "black market" is foolish and means that you did not understand what you read.

We have an underground economy in Canada but it is not a product or a service. A black market is a means of exchange. I get my roof fixed and the roofer says: "If you pay me cash, I will reduce the price." I say: "No, thanks. I want to claim it as a business expense. Please give me a receipt." but the underlying production is the roofing job. Black market does produce anything in and of itself.

I ask you this: what underlying interest do countries like Russia, Iran, Pakistan and China have in Afghanistan??????

Those articles say that the only thing in Afghanistan is opium, terrorism and ..... what??

Come to think of it, maybe you have identified precisely what foreign nations want: they want to be brokers in all sorts of black market trade.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Army Guy,

Is that why where over there for, a piece of the drug trade. Give me a break...

Certainly not, nor in Vietnam...a really good read is "The Politics Of Heroin".

http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/bookstore/poh.cfm

Maintaining a global perspective, this groundbreaking study details the mechanics of drug trafficking in Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and South and Central America. New chapters detail U.S. involvement in the narcotics trade in Afghanistan and Pakistan before and after the fall of the Taliban,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_..._Southeast_Asia

I read the original book years ago, very interesting. A few good photos too.

Another link regarding Pepsi's involvement in the Heroin trade...

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/npoi3.html

also...

http://infocollective.org/mccoyabstract.html

The black market was used as a political weapon between rivals in Vietnam. Accusations of involvement with the black market ousted one political faction while another faction, with US support took control of the Government and the black market. (p.249)

The air force bought heroin directly from labs in Laos’ Vientiane region, managed by the Chinese entrepreneur Huu Tim-Heng. Heng, the son of Thai Prime Minister Souvanna Phuoma, and 2 other financiers used a partially constructed Pepsi-Cola plant on the outskirts of Vientiane, funded in part by USAID, to cover large financial transactions and purchase chemicals needed for heroin labs. Heng was also responsible for connecting Gen. Ouane Rattikone, Laos’ largest opium merchant, to the Nguyen Cao Ky’s air force. (p.227)

Another interesting bit from the book...

http://www.drugtext.org/library/books/McCoy/book/40.htm

Now, would you want your enemies to control a billion+ dollar a year cash industry, or would you rather control it yourself...?

[Army Guy]

jdobbin:

These links are three years out of date. I am talking about the fuinding that was described on CTV. It said that a huge crop of opium *this* year had contributed to the Taliban's war and that they are able to pay $400 a month to fighter over the summer. This is the first sumemr they have ever fought a war in.

Check out the Globe article on the summer fight.

Yes they are 3 years old, but that does not make them any less valid, Like i said already, the taliban does use drug money , but it is not the majority of it's funding. Most of thier money comes from outside groups,indiv, and nations.

There are for all intensive purposes 4 groups of combat forces in afgan, Afgan Army/police, NATO forces, drug lords, and taliban /insurgent forces. The last two are not linked, with the drug warlords in afgan for themselfs, not supporting the taliban.

NATO has been dealing with mostly Taliban forces, but for the most part has not bother with the opium fields for serveral reasons ,Not enough troops on the ground , and for the farmers it is the product of chioce because it pays the bills which feeds thier families. and for most it is a choice, grow it, or join the taliban because they pay the bills.

Trust me when i say that most Taliban forces we've captured are not getting payed anything like you've mentioned 400.00 dollars is more likely a yearly payout..And we've been combating the Taliban for years now, not just this summer, we've just moved into the south this year, but we as a nation been fighting these guys for years.

[jdobbin]

jdobbin:

These links are three years out of date. I am talking about the fuinding that was described on CTV. It said that a huge crop of opium *this* year had contributed to the Taliban's war and that they are able to pay $400 a month to fighter over the summer. This is the first sumemr they have ever fought a war in.

Check out the Globe article on the summer fight.

Yes they are 3 years old, but that does not make them any less valid, Like i said already, the taliban does use drug money , but it is not the majority of it's funding. Most of thier money comes from outside groups,indiv, and nations.

There are for all intensive purposes 4 groups of combat forces in afgan, Afgan Army/police, NATO forces, drug lords, and taliban /insurgent forces. The last two are not linked, with the drug warlords in afgan for themselfs, not supporting the taliban.

NATO has been dealing with mostly Taliban forces, but for the most part has not bother with the opium fields for serveral reasons ,Not enough troops on the ground , and for the farmers it is the product of chioce because it pays the bills which feeds thier families. and for most it is a choice, grow it, or join the taliban because they pay the bills.

Not bothering with the poppy fields? Looks at this.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1220617.ece

That article was written just yesterday by a well respected newspaper. So are the lying?

And the figure that Taliban are paying local fighters that amount of money was reported on CTV just last week.

The article, however, says that a fighter will receive $1000 for the head of a NATO soldier. They do mention Pakistani money which I have mentioned elsewhere in this but NATO itself said this year has been a year where money has exploded due to poppy money.

[Army Guy]

Charles:

Yes. You are missing something. What you are missing is any other production being traded out of Afghanistan. Give me a third one. Give me a reason for why those nations are interested in black market trade. Saying "black market" is foolish and means that you did not understand what you read.

Yes, there is a third, actually thier are plenty, but what kinf of econemy were you expecting from a nation that has been at war for more than 30 years.

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Why are nations interested in our econemy, it fills a supply and demand and thier is a dolaar to be had.

Actually Black market is a term they used in the link i provided, what would you call it.

We have an underground economy in Canada but it is not a product or a service. A black market is a means of exchange. I get my roof fixed and the roofer says: "If you pay me cash, I will reduce the price." I say: "No, thanks. I want to claim it as a business expense. Please give me a receipt." but the underlying production is the roofing job. Black market does produce anything in and of itself.

In other words you get a product and service at a reduced cost, "if you had accepted" and the roofer gets to cheat on taxes owed.

I ask you this: what underlying interest do countries like Russia, Iran, Pakistan and China have in Afghanistan??????

I'm sure they don't want a major American or NATO presence in the area, one that could threaten they're own goals for the area. or have them in a postion to influence other interests.

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But then again are you saying that all these nations just want thier piece of the drug trade. Id like to see a link on that.

Come to think of it, maybe you have identified precisely what foreign nations want: they want to be brokers in all sorts of black market trade.

You must be right, thats why Canadian troops are sacraficing themselfs for , to ensure Canada gets it share of the pie. are you really that jaded, or can you prove any of this.

[fellowtraveller]

I'm not sure if we should be there fighting. First, why are we really there for?? To drive the Taliban out. Why? They were good enough for Cheney and Bush to hold talks with, against the UN rules, about a pipeline and oil! All of a sudden, the Taliban want to change the "legal tender" to Euros and BAM! US is invading! I'm for helping the people of any country but when the President of the country, was replaced by the US and that person worked for US oil company, it starts you thinking. I think Canada may regret going into this war, which is plainly the US's for their own purposes.

Could we set the record straight?

There is basically no oil in Afghanistan. None. Nobody cares what the Taliban want in relation to currency, since their only real source of money, outside of that provided off the books by Iran and Saudi Arabia, is from the sale of narcotics.

Aside from oil, Afghainstan basically has no significant resources of any kind.

And that is the most serious long term issue.

Note also that some 30 countries have been or are involved miliatarily in Afghanistan, not just the USA.

[jdobbin]

The Taliban (pre invasion) had virtually stopped opium production in Afghanistan. The claim that they were 'druglords', or funded by drug money, was simply a ploy by the media and gov't to make them look as bad as possible, even if certain 'facts' were not true.

from...

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/newsletter_2001..._1_page002.html

Hardly the actions of those who want to make money from it.

In 2006, the rules have changed.

Even al Jaezeera reports that drug money is being by fighters.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/936...51800A7AD4D.htm

[Army Guy]

jdobbin:

That article was written just yesterday by a well respected newspaper. So are the lying?

Let me ask you this, do you believe everything you read, I've completed 2 tours in Afgan already and will be starting my 3 rd in just under a week. I've only been on one operation that burned a poppy field or a set of fields. there was some operations by the british but they to have since stopped, for the reasons i quoted, we can't fight the taliban and the drug lords at the same time.

So have they lied, not exactly, but they have not told the whole truth. Besides in the last 6 months just when would the Canadian army had the time to burn fields they have been on one operation after another. Hence why i said for the most part we have left them alone.

Hey you don't have top take my word for it. vist the DND web site, and E-mail or write a soldier over there right now. or go to the PPCLI web site and ask them..ask them how many poppy fields we burned.

And the figure that Taliban are paying local fighters that amount of money was reported on CTV just last week.

Again because it is written makes it true. 400.00 dollars a month is alot of money to them, those we have captured had thier life savings on them about a few dollars. it's not like they go to the bank or have direct deposit.

I'm not saying they are not being payed with drug money, just that is not where they are getting the majority of thier money from..

The article, however, says that a fighter will receive $1000 for the head of a NATO soldier. They do mention Pakistani money which I have mentioned elsewhere in this but NATO itself said this year has been a year where money has exploded due to poppy money.

yes there is alot of drug money out there but most of it belongs to the drug lords not the taliban. and you'll find it's not just NATO soldiers but all infidels have a price some more than others.

[jdobbin]

For the most part coverage in Canadian media has been very good, reporting the cas numbers of all involved in the conflict, as you seen in the CBC coverage.

The US are not the only ones quoting the situation is improving, so is the Canadians, so our our soldiers, Things are getting better, across most of the country, everything you hear in the news is about the south, as NATO has opened up new bases thier right in the heart of Taliban territory, but one must keep track of the whole country, opening of schools and hospitals in the north or kabul, do not sell many papers,

The Taliban do not have the manpower base to control Afgans opuim trade, yes they are making money off it, but they are into alot of black market themes.

Most of the opuim trade is now controled by independant war lords, which are not tied to the taliban but rather in it for thier own profit.

Elections did happen but the south was controled by the taliban, in such numbers that the Afgan army and police could not combat by themselfs hence why NATO has more presence in the south now, taking the fight directly to taliban controled areas.

That being said we are not doing a majority of the fighting ,most of the fighting is being done by the afgan army with NATO in a supporting role. such as with the last attack. We are making a difference every day we get stronger and they get weaker.

None of these countries are better off in fact they are worse.

You say the situation has gotten better but people in Kandahar have not had consistent electricity since the U.S. left. The Independent newspaper article I gave you from yesterday had been from the city say the situation is worse. This is the first time the Taliban have ever fought a summer conflict.

I was referring to Canada's part in stabilizing Kabul for elections.

So you are saying Reagan was wrong to leave Lebanon? I don't see being involved more deeply there would have helped.

And Vietnam is doing just fine now.

Somalia continues to be a failed state. I don't know that any 10 year occupation would have helped fix that.

The major point here is that Martin committed troops to the south with a firm deadline so that our people would be back home later this year so that they could train new soldiers for some other major role in 2007. Eugene Lang's article in yesterday's Globe and Mail says that the extension now commit's Canada to 2010. There will be no other mission that Canada can commit to in the next 5 years as demonstrated by Harper telling the U.S. and U.N. that there were no troops to spare for Lebanon.

[jdobbin]

Is that the best you offer? Don't believe everything you read?

I don't believe everything I read. That is why I am having a hard time believing that things are improving when the Taliban fight in summer, a time they've never fought previously in.

And you said that Canada is not involved in taking down the poppy fields. I keep hearing we are.

And I hope you'll be okay in Afghanistan. Some of the soldiers in my own area still have high morale but are saying the situation is worse than when they arrived.