Afghanistan

[KrustyKidd]

To me that is not good news. To hear NATO saying that in 4 months they will be able to determine if they can maintain control of Afghanistan. The Taleban could be back in power within a year.

From what I understood from the article they were talking about defeating the Taliban, not erroding them over years. And, in four months they would know if they were beating them over the short term. It said nothing of losing against the Taliban or pulling out.

The new chief of NATO forces in Afghanistan says he'll know within four months if plans to beat the Taliban are working, as he urged Canada not to waver in the battle.

He estimated it would take three to five years to significantly improve the lives of Afghans, but noted that ordinary Afghans are already grumbling about a lack of security.

[jbg]

Read up on the history of your country from 1763 to 1867 (and by some measures 1982). I'm a bit ignorant about Canada myself. Maybe you could teach me.

I mean applied in modern times.

It wouldn't necessarily be all that different. If we strip away the phony political correctness and "constraints" imposed by the United Nations, it could work pretty much the same way; local control (called "responsible government" historically in your country) and foreign control over military matters and foreign affairs. These countries have been unable and/or unwilling to fulfill their responsibilities as fully independent countries.

[jdobbin]

It wouldn't necessarily be all that different. If we strip away the phony political correctness and "constraints" imposed by the United Nations, it could work pretty much the same way; local control (called "responsible government" historically in your country) and foreign control over military matters and foreign affairs. These countries have been unable and/or unwilling to fulfill their responsibilities as fully independent countries.

I think that would require a far larger military committment than NATO would be willing to make. Afghanistan has asked repeatedly for a force in the hundreds of thousands to fight off the Taliban and al Qaeda.

The whole strategy thus far has been to get the Afghan forces up to the task of doing the job.

[jbg]

I think that would require a far larger military committment than NATO would be willing to make. Afghanistan has asked repeatedly for a force in the hundreds of thousands to fight off the Taliban and al Qaeda.

The whole strategy thus far has been to get the Afghan forces up to the task of doing the job.

May be the strategy, but since any Afgan forces will represent largely their tribe, it's a course not without practical difficulties.

[jdobbin]

May be the strategy, but since any Afgan forces will represent largely their tribe, it's a course not without practical difficulties.

Earlier on in this thread or somewhere else, I suggested was that the forces could be withdrawn in favour of a rapid deployment force based nearby. Ultimately Afghans would take of Afghan affairs but if training camps for al Qaeda were set up.... BOOM! Fast strike and back out again.

The British general said he gave 4 months to see how this move to stabilize the country would work. At that time, it will be interesting to see a new evaluation of what is going on.

[NL_Separatist]

WOW , Thank God we have the Liberail Party of Canada to protect us ,Hey BlackDog ,or maybe when your friends ,(the ones that your governemnt hasnt been treating to well )will come and liberate your section of the country .But, what I find so funny about thease Liberail harpys ,is the fact that "THEY" cant find nothing in thier lives to stand Up for .They feel by standing Up to the "MAN" in Ottawa, that they are doing some great justice for the Poor Uneducated Arab in the Middle east . (How about joining the Peace core ,If you love them so Much)

All I can say is this ,when the time comes ,and it is coming .When your country needs you BlackDog ,I hope that your friends stick a stamp on your forhead ,so I know that you wont be on my side of the fence .If you want someone to blame for this shit ,why dont you Blame the Liberail party of Canada .They are the ones that stuck our Armed Forces in Afganistan.They are the ones for years that have down graded our Military.They are the ones that let our Plains fall from the sky.(So a single Mother could get more Welfare)

But ,when the shit hits the fan ,and the world community calls on Canada do our part ,to protect the freedom that you enjoy,you sit and call those 3000 people a "drop in the bucket".

No ,dont stand beside your Allies .The Ones that have suffered to give you the rights you so enjoy,"NO" condem them that have given you your freedom .And, we wonder why the the country has gone the way of the "Shit Bucket"

Is the end near,"GOD ,I hope so .Cause all this Liberail Propaganda is smothering the shit Outta me "

[Yaro]

WOW , Thank God we have the Liberail Party of Canada to protect us ,Hey BlackDog ,or maybe when your friends ,(the ones that your governemnt hasnt been treating to well )will come and liberate your section of the country .But, what I find so funny about thease Liberail harpys ,is the fact that "THEY" cant find nothing in thier lives to stand Up for .They feel by standing Up to the "MAN" in Ottawa, that they are doing some great justice for the Poor Uneducated Arab in the Middle east . (How about joining the Peace core ,If you love them so Much)

All I can say is this ,when the time comes ,and it is coming .When your country needs you BlackDog ,I hope that your friends stick a stamp on your forhead ,so I know that you wont be on my side of the fence .If you want someone to blame for this shit ,why dont you Blame the Liberail party of Canada .They are the ones that stuck our Armed Forces in Afganistan.They are the ones for years that have down graded our Military.They are the ones that let our Plains fall from the sky.(So a single Mother could get more Welfare)

But ,when the shit hits the fan ,and the world community calls on Canada do our part ,to protect the freedom that you enjoy,you sit and call those 3000 people a "drop in the bucket".

No ,dont stand beside your Allies .The Ones that have suffered to give you the rights you so enjoy,"NO" condem them that have given you your freedom .And, we wonder why the the country has gone the way of the "Shit Bucket"

Is the end near,"GOD ,I hope so .Cause all this Liberail Propaganda is smothering the shit Outta me "

Did trying to read that give anyone else a headache?

[jbg]

Earlier on in this thread or somewhere else, I suggested was that the forces could be withdrawn in favour of a rapid deployment force based nearby. Ultimately Afghans would take of Afghan affairs but if training camps for al Qaeda were set up.... BOOM! Fast strike and back out again.

The British general said he gave 4 months to see how this move to stabilize the country would work. At that time, it will be interesting to see a new evaluation of what is going on.

Trouble with that approach is that putting the RDF in action would be a difficult decision, politically. If independence were offically abridged it would be much easier. Also, this and many countries should be taken out of the UN since in no economic or real sense are they independent.

[jdobbin]

Trouble with that approach is that putting the RDF in action would be a difficult decision, politically. If independence were offically abridged it would be much easier. Also, this and many countries should be taken out of the UN since in no economic or real sense are they independent.

I don't think you get the any nation to agree to become dependent. I don't have any idea how it would work or if it could work.

[jbg]

Trouble with that approach is that putting the RDF in action would be a difficult decision, politically. If independence were offically abridged it would be much easier. Also, this and many countries should be taken out of the UN since in no economic or real sense are they independent.

I don't think you get the any nation to agree to become dependent. I don't have any idea how it would work or if it could work.

How about a nice, clean, aid cutoff as an incentive? Not very much fun governing a nation without a source of baksheesh.

[jdobbin]

How about a nice, clean, aid cutoff as an incentive? Not very much fun governing a nation without a source of baksheesh.

In Afghanistan's case, they might just rely on opium.

[jbg]

How about a nice, clean, aid cutoff as an incentive? Not very much fun governing a nation without a source of baksheesh.

In Afghanistan's case, they might just rely on opium.

Good point, actually. I'll have to give that one some thought.

However, that works better for the farmers and middlemen. Government types like nice, easy checks without the risk to life of collection.

[jdobbin]

Four U.S. soldiers killed today in Afghanistan.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...han-deaths.html

[jbg]

Four U.S. soldiers killed today in Afghanistan.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...han-deaths.html

People die in wars. Get it?

[jdobbin]

People die in wars. Get it?

And Presidents eventually have to decide whether such wars should continue or not. Get it? Nixon out of Vietnam. Reagan out of Lebanon. Clinton out of Somalia.

Iraq and Afghanistan have already lasted as long as most of the world conflicts have and even though they are low grade conflicts, both have accelerated intensity.

Do you think that Afghanistan or Iraq can be brought to a peaceful resolution or at least one where they can handle things for themselves?

[daddyhominum]

People die in wars. Get it?

And Presidents eventually have to decide whether such wars should continue or not. Get it? Nixon out of Vietnam. Reagan out of Lebanon. Clinton out of Somalia.

Iraq and Afghanistan have already lasted as long as most of the world conflicts have and even though they are low grade conflicts, both have accelerated intensity.

Do you think that Afghanistan or Iraq can be brought to a peaceful resolution or at least one where they can handle things for themselves?

Hope you don't mind if I give an answer to that.

No nation in the world can handle things for themselves when attacked by an enemy with unlimited resources from outside that nation.

Simply imagine that the native Warriors or similar group, dedicated to the liberation of all native lands were were given, by other national governments like Venezuela, Bolivia, Cuba, and others, unlimited military resources , armaments and permitted volunteers to join the them in Caledonia against Canadians police and military. Imagine further that this dedicated band of warriors was ideologically dedicated to the return of all contested lands to native people as an inherent right that included a responsibility to kill all, native or non-native, who opposed them. Imagine further that this organization had been indoctronating aboriginal peoples all over the world to believe that it was better to die then endure another day of democracy instead of the traditional rule by a hereditary Chief. That groups existed across Canada and throughout the world dedicated to the same goal and each time you supreesd them in one place, they sprang up in another. Canadian leaders and MPS, MLa's etc. subject to assisnation and kidnap. That local populations were intimidated through murder, extortion and kidnap into supporting the insurgents.

I don't think Canada would be able to manage on its own to stop the flow of weapons and manpower or stop the intimidation of the population.

We need to work to restore security and a civil society in Afghanistan and Iraq before those people can be free to determine their own future. We need to form alliances that maintain that freedom and security far into the future.

The threat to Afghanistan and Iraq are not simply internal threats on security. The insurgents are well financed, broadly supported by an ideology that calls for establishment of rigid theocracies in all Muslim lands first and in the balance of the world as it becomes practical with out regard to cost in life or treasure.

The free world needs to build mutual protection alliances around the world to defend each other against that threat and to enable the spread of human rights including the rule of non-religious law.

That is my opinion based on the facts as I see them in the current broad conflict across the Middle East.

Dennis

[jdobbin]

The threat to Afghanistan and Iraq are not simply internal threats on security. The insurgents are well financed, broadly supported by an ideology that calls for establishment of rigid theocracies in all Muslim lands first and in the balance of the world as it becomes practical with out regard to cost in life or treasure.

The situation in Iraq is quickly becoming like a civil war. There's no business being there if the country begins fighting with itself. At the moment, 100 people a day are being killed. It is starting to become sectarian violence.

Afghanistan still might have a hope but there is no way that any country can afford to fight a 20 or 30 of 40 year war there.

[jbg]

Afghanistan still might have a hope but there is no way that any country can afford to fight a 20 or 30 of 40 year war there.

If a given part of the world spawns and spins off violence to other parts of the world, we have no choice.

[jdobbin]

If a given part of the world spawns and spins off violence to other parts of the world, we have no choice.

Would it though? At some point, we have to decide whether our presence just inflames the situation. The domino theory is what kept the U.S. in Vietnam so long.

Another soldier died today in fighting in Afghanistan, possibly a Brit.

[Army Guy]

72 taliban killed yesterday, not that we are keeping score right jdobbin.

My Webpage

[jdobbin]

72 taliban killed yesterday, not that we are keeping score right jdobbin.

My Webpage

If you'll see my notes above, Aghanistan might still have a hope if they can avoid the sectarian violence of Iraq and somehow stem the tide of insurgents coming in from Pakistan. As the British commander said this month, it will be about 4 months from now when the forces will see if they have someone nipped this latest wave of violence in the bud.

If Afghanistan can increasingly stand on its own, NATO can extract itself.

I don't know that NATO wants to be fighting this type of sustained combat two years straight. There has to be some improvement.

[Army Guy]

jdobbin:

That was not my piont i was trying to make , Ever since this post was started you've constantly posted up the death of all the NATO soldiers. For what reasons i do not know, So make your piont.

If you'll see my notes above, Aghanistan might still have a hope if they can avoid the sectarian violence of Iraq

The situation in Afgan is not even close to that of Iraq, sectarian violence "where did you get that" the violence is between coalition forces, the taliban, and occasional drug lords.

somehow stem the tide of insurgents coming in from Pakistan. As the British commander said this month, it will be about 4 months from now when the forces will see if they have someone nipped this latest wave of violence in the bud

NATO has already taken up the task, hence why all the deaths on both sides.

Canada played an unofficial role on Wednesday brokering negotiations to end a standoff between coalition forces and the Taliban in southern Afghanistan.

My Webpage

Not saying that NATO has made a difference yet or not, come this spring we will know for sure as the taliban would have had thier rest ,mountain passes free from snow. And when we yell across the valley GAME ON and nobody replies then we'll know....until then the British Gen is blowing smoke up your bum.

[jdobbin]

jdobbin:

That was not my piont i was trying to make , Ever since this post was started you've constantly posted up the death of all the NATO soldiers. For what reasons i do not know, So make your piont.

The situation in Afgan is not even close to that of Iraq, sectarian violence "where did you get that" the violence is between coalition forces, the taliban, and occasional drug lords.

NATO has already taken up the task, hence why all the deaths on both sides.

Canada played an unofficial role on Wednesday brokering negotiations to end a standoff between coalition forces and the Taliban in southern Afghanistan.

My Webpage

Not saying that NATO has made a difference yet or not, come this spring we will know for sure as the taliban would have had thier rest ,mountain passes free from snow. And when we yell across the valley GAME ON and nobody replies then we'll know....until then the British Gen is blowing smoke up your bum.

You don't think the deaths of NATO soldiers should be noted? Most of the time Canada only pays attention if it is a Canadian soldier killed. They don't often hear about three Americans killed or one British soldier killed.

Violence has upticked in the last months. Opium is funding the insurgency and neither the government or coalition forces have been able to stop farmers from growing it because poverty is rife and the cash from that crop is so steady. Insurgent forces have been able to hide in Pakistan and then re-emerge every summer for a new offensive. The Pakistanis don't seem to be able to stop insurgents from using their country as a base to strike out at other countries.

Sectarian violence is what the Taliban is. They attack schools, other Muslims. They are the defintion of sectarian violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian_violence

Canada will eventually have to determine whether they are helping or hurting Afghanistan. It isn't too late yet but it will depend on the ability to help Afghanistan to stand on their own feet much more quickly.

And from the article that you posted, 10 Afghan police killed by a U.S. bomb dropped on them. That certainly doesn't help the cause.

[Army Guy]

jdobbin :

You don't think the deaths of NATO soldiers should be noted? Most of the time Canada only pays attention if it is a Canadian soldier killed. They don't often hear about three Americans killed or one British soldier killed.

They are noted, in the same news papers as the ones as the canadian soldiers are reported, So what piont are you trying to make here with the constant re-reporting of deaths in Afgan ?

Violence has upticked in the last months. Opium is funding the insurgency and neither the government or coalition forces have been able to stop farmers from growing it because poverty is rife and the cash from that crop is so steady.

Yes the fighting has been intense in the last month mostly due to Nato operations in the area, plus opening alot of new patrol bases along the pakistan border. The majority of the insurgents are not funded thru the opium trade but rather thru Muslim sources, Yes some of the drug trade profits are going to the insurgents but nothing compared to the other Muslim sources. And for the most part coalition forces are leaving the opuim dealers alone, like you said the country is dirt poor and the farmers have to make a living some how, pushing them off drug production only pushes them towards the insurgents side.

Sectarian violence is what the Taliban is. They attack schools, other Muslims. They are the defintion of sectarian violence

Yes they do attack schools,muslims,anything not following thier proposed beliefs. but not in the same sense as what we are seeing in Iraq, one religious sect fighting another sunni vs shi'a for example . As 80 % of afgans are sunni, 19 % shi'a 1 5 other, the taliban are made up of serveral muslim faiths. thier goal is to reverse the clock ,bringing about a more restricted version of the same muslim faith.

Canada will eventually have to determine whether they are helping or hurting Afghanistan. It isn't too late yet but it will depend on the ability to help Afghanistan to stand on their own feet much more quickly

Nation building does not happen over night, it took well over 12 years to assist Bosina in standing up on it's own, and they were not ravaged by 30 years of war.

Where do you stand are you for the mission or against it.

[jdobbin]

jdobbin :

They are noted, in the same news papers as the ones as the canadian soldiers are reported, So what piont are you trying to make here with the constant re-reporting of deaths in Afgan ?

Yes the fighting has been intense in the last month mostly due to Nato operations in the area, plus opening alot of new patrol bases along the pakistan border. The majority of the insurgents are not funded thru the opium trade but rather thru Muslim sources, Yes some of the drug trade profits are going to the insurgents but nothing compared to the other Muslim sources. And for the most part coalition forces are leaving the opuim dealers alone, like you said the country is dirt poor and the farmers have to make a living some how, pushing them off drug production only pushes them towards the insurgents side.

Yes they do attack schools,muslims,anything not following thier proposed beliefs. but not in the same sense as what we are seeing in Iraq, one religious sect fighting another sunni vs shi'a for example . As 80 % of afgans are sunni, 19 % shi'a 1 5 other, the taliban are made up of serveral muslim faiths. thier goal is to reverse the clock ,bringing about a more restricted version of the same muslim faith.

Nation building does not happen over night, it took well over 12 years to assist Bosina in standing up on it's own, and they were not ravaged by 30 years of war.

Where do you stand are you for the mission or against it.

Non-Canadian casualties are often not reported in Canadian newspapers. There is generally an out of sight out of mind attitude about the situation over there. Overall casualties like the deaths of 10 Afghan policemen never make it into most newspapers. My point of posting the casualties is that when the U.S. starts talking about how the situation is improving, it sounds like they are talking out of their hats. More than a year ago, Afghanistan had barely seen the likes of suicide bombers. Now it is de riguer. Roadside bombs were unusual whereas more than a year ago it was mines. The fight has changed, is changing and could change some more before we see the last of it.

Please cites your source that most of the revenue for the insurgency is not coming from opium. That is now what the NATO briefing said last month. They said that the insurgency was able to pay fighters $400 a month because of opium sales.

Several Muslim faiths fighting is the definition of sectarian violence. The Taliban are sectarian in their beliefs and destroy all other sects of their faith through violence. Afghanis ultimately will have to fight that battle, not us.

We can't nation build when a country wants to tear itself apart.

I supported the mission to Afghanistan to remove al Qaeda as a threat. We stayed to get elections off the ground and have a democratically elected government put in place and train the military. The mission started to change then to an offensive against the Taliban for the Canadians and for NATO. This looked like it could present long term problems because it meant that we would be doing the majority of the fighting in what is looking like a civil war.

The war of terror was to remove al Qaeda as a threat. Well, al Qaeda is operating out of Pakistan now and training the latest wave of terrorists.

Canada still has a chance to get Afghans in control of their own territory but we can't fight their religious battles for them. The window to do this grows smaller all the time. That is why I've said we'll have to re-evaluate this year whether we are helping or hurting the efforts.

Do you believe that Reagan should have stayed in Lebanon? That Nixon should have stayed in Vietnam? That Clinton should have stayed in Somalia? Or were the right decisions to get out made?