Afghanistan

[madmax]

You keep a collection of documentaries too?

Yes I do.

While I like to speak freely with my own thoughts, I seek alot of information, to form these opinions. I wouldn't engage in such a complex discussion without some thorough background.

I am pleased to hear you do the same.

[Catchme]

Most certainly there is NOT world wide support for Afghanistan and the NATO mission. There is not even support for it from with in NATO.

Also, in today's news there is a new Canadian Senate report out.

Senate report recommends possible end to Afghan mission

OTTAWA - Canada should consider pulling its troops out of Afghanistan if some of its NATO allies continue to refuse to allow their troops to fight on the front lines near Kandahar, says a Senate committee.

“NATO must deploy more resources in Afghanistan and use those resources in a better way than we have done to this point. If this proves impossible, Canada should be prepared to consider withdrawing its troops from Afghanistan as soon as our current commitment ends,” concludes a report by the Senate committee on national defence and security.

The committee of Liberal and Conservative senators recently returned from Afghanistan and has singled out the ongoing dispute within NATO as one of the major hurdles facing Canada’s deployment of 2,500 troops to the country...

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...d2b7274&k=54891

[Catchme]

How did the Americans induce Nato in 2004 to become Hamid Karzai's mercenary army? What intelligence did the cabinet receive from Washington, where officials openly spoke of dumping Afghanistan on uppity Nato to teach it a lesson after the Balkan shambles?

…Every assessment I have heard suggests that the sort of campaign envisaged by the government in southern Afghanistan would require not 3,000 or even 10,000 troops, but over 100,000. Even the latter total has failed in Iraq, and Iraqis cannot hold a candle to Afghans for insurgent fanaticism.”

(The Guardian, 5 July, 2006)

[White Doors]

The UN wants us there. And we are there. The Un represents the world. ergo, the world wants us there.

Sorry, I'll take the UN over your word poser.

[Black Dog]

A war, any war you enter into, you should enter into to win. If you believe in your cause so much you are willing to fight, you have to win. You win wars with OVERWHELMING FORCE!! It is simple. That does not n]mean a free for all slaughter, no.

It means you show up with a well trained, very well equipped and excellently lead army, and you compltely destroy the other army. Overwhelming force, you do not give them 1 second the breathe until the surrender. Then you treat them according to the Geneva Convention, you pacify & befriend them, as we did with Germany & Japan after WW2.

It works. No half measures...

Unfortunately, the normal rules don't apply when the enemy chooses not to fight your way. Overwhelming force, as the Americans found in Vietnam and the Soviets in Afghanistan, matters little when you can't bring it to bear on the enemy. That's the challenge of counter-insurgency operations, where boots on the ground matters a helluva lot more than tanks or air power.

[Catchme]

Interesting, a former military person, has much to say about Harper's demoralizing speech of this week and none of it is good.

The elected leader of the Canadian government has committed an unbelievable sin. Addressing questions about the announced Spring offensive by the Taliban in southern Afghanistan he blustered on in his usual detached Bushco bravado. That would have been typical... and then he went over the line.

“We certainly are aware that those are the plans of the Taliban,” Mr. Harper said of the offensive predicted by North Atlantic Treaty Organization commanders and analysts. “Our soldiers, men and women who go over there, know full well when they go over there that not all of them will return.”

I don't care who you are or what you think. You NEVER, EVER say that!

Unlike you, ... the troops on the ground in Afghanistan don't have the luxury of standing in an environmentally controlled chamber and shouting insults at their opponents. Those kids put themselves out there on a two-way weapons range.

It is contingent upon all leaders of combat personnel to ensure that troops going into action are as psychologically prepared and as mentally fit as possible. The last thing they need is to have the prime minister of the government that sent them declare that some of them will die.

You may think it, you may believe it, but you never say it. It demoralizes them...A brand-new REMF can figure that out.

http://thegallopingbeaver.blogspot.com/

[Canadian Blue]

Here's the whole blog:

The elected leader of the Canadian government has committed an unbelievable sin. Addressing questions about the announced Spring offensive by the Taliban in southern Afghanistan he blustered on in his usual detached Bushco bravado. That would have been typical... and then he went over the line.

“We certainly are aware that those are the plans of the Taliban,” Mr. Harper said of the offensive predicted by North Atlantic Treaty Organization commanders and analysts. “Our soldiers, men and women who go over there, know full well when they go over there that not all of them will return.”

Why you despicable, overweight, non-combatant, little fuckwad!

I seriously hope you are enjoying the perks of your comfortable life. You don't goddamned well deserve it.

I don't care who you are or what you think. You NEVER, EVER say that!

Unlike you, you slimy piece of shit, the troops on the ground in Afghanistan don't have the luxury of standing in an environmentally controlled chamber and shouting insults at their opponents. Those kids put themselves out there on a two-way weapons range.

It is contingent upon all leaders of combat personnel to ensure that troops going into action are as psychologically prepared and as mentally fit as possible. The last thing they need is to have the prime minister of the government that sent them declare that some of them will die.

You may think it, you may believe it, but you never say it. It demoralizes them. Christ! A brand-new REMF can figure that out.

You're a fucking ghoul, Harper. Piss on you.

Well first of all, everyone in the military is told upon heading to Afghanistan that not all of them will be coming home, General Hillier even told Canadian's in the fall of 2005 that Canadian soldiers would be killed. If a soldier doesn't know that upon joining that they might lose their life before the end of their contract, it's a serious travesty.

As well how are our soldiers being better mentally prepared by leaders refusing to say their might be casualties. That blows my mind. If a leader were to tell me that I have nothing to worry about and that nobody would die, I would have a major problem with that.

I remember being told by NCO's during Basic that their would be casaulties and we would have to brace for it due to our move down to the southern part of the region.

[Catchme]

Well apparently Dave, his real name, and his full name is on the blog, who is former military and who is not operating behind a moniker, feels much different, and perceives much different than you do.

As such, because he is not operating from a behind a moniker, I will trust what he says.

[hiti]

Keep on babbling, Steve. Your mask is slipping.

[southerncomfort]

As such, because he is not operating from a behind a moniker, I will trust what he says.

You are operating behind a moniker, why should we trust what you say.

[Catchme]

As such, because he is not operating from a behind a moniker, I will trust what he says.

You are operating behind a moniker, why should we trust what you say.

He offers opinion, no proof, much like yourself. If I offer opinion, it is always backed up at least once. but hey that never stops "some" people from disbelieving anyway.

[Canadian Blue]

Dave is a partisan hack, look at the entire entry he made on his blog. When a person uses that much profanity, then you know he's somebody you can't take extremely seriously. As well I refuted what he said, and it simply doesn't make sense for the government to lie to soldiers about possible casualties.

[scribblet]

Dave is a partisan hack, look at the entire entry he made on his blog. When a person uses that much profanity, then you know he's somebody you can't take extremely seriously. As well I refuted what he said, and it simply doesn't make sense for the government to lie to soldiers about possible casualties.

You make good sense, not a blogger who can't speak without profanity - he's no proof of anything.

[Catchme]

Oh, I would say Dave was angry, justifiably so, and as a matter of fact, I have seen Canadian Blue write something very similiar to Dave's angry blog, right here at mapleleaf fourms and using almost exactly the same profanities and perhaps a worse tone.

Dave is publically out, and is for sure a Canadian military veteran, I think, I will still believe Dave and his very angry words.

And here is another reason why:

Two unarmed Afghans killed by NATO troops

Updated Sat. Feb. 17 2007 1:48 PM ET

Canadian Press

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan -- Two unarmed Afghan civilians have been shot and killed by NATO forces in a pair of bizarre, seemingly unrelated incidents.

One incident around 3:40 p.m. local time west of Kandahar city involved a Canadian battle group patrol and a man the army is implying may have been mentally unstable.

Separately, unidentified alliance troops opened fire and killed a man who ran in between vehicles of a parked convoy in the pre-dawn hours, near Kandahar Airfield.

For the Canadians, it is the second unintentional shooting in a week. Both incidents today join a long series of shootings which have eroded relations with the Afghan population, who have taken to complaining bitterly about being in the crossfire _ or on the receiving end of stray warning shots.

Canadians Shot first ask questions later and more Afghan civilians die

[Canadian Blue]

Listen Catchme it's better to be carried by judged by 12 then carried by 6. Perhap's you should learn more about the realities of what our soldiers have to face with regards to suicide bombers, and ambushes before being so quick to judge.

As for Dave, spare me. I haven't heard any soldier in the CF currently who is mad about what Harper said. Ask Weaponeer who is going over and Army Guy who is currently in Afghanistan. It's telling that the only people really pissed off here are civilian's who have no idea about what soldiers think, and will never ask their opinion.

Catchme, so let me ask you again why is a civilian telling us members of the CF that we should be pissed off, despite the fact I haven't seen a single member pissed off about what Harper has said. Actually you'll notice more admiration from the troops of Harper than the previous government.

[Catchme]

You see, he was NOT a civilian, he is a Canadian military veteran, if you would've bothered to read his blog you would have found this out. A career veteran at that.

In fact, it makes me wonder, how an alleged former military person could/would be so denigrating/disparaging about another publically viewable career veteran's opinion.

And really, Canadian blue, that is the bottom line. I know he was a veteran, I however do not know that about you or the people you referred to. You could be, or you may well not be. Who is to know for sure. And I know how I would've felt had I heard that, so again, I tend to lean towards that which is provable to me.

However, I am going to speak with a friend of mine, who was Airborne, when of course we had Airborne, when he gets home later, and see what his opinion is on it, as I am am willing to be open to discussion about this. His wife said she would've been apalled had she heard the PM make non-moral boosting comments like that before he and his regiment were deployed to Cyprus, and later to Somalia. But that is not a military person's view.

[Alexandra]

Canadians Shot first ask questions later and more Afghan civilians die[/url]

I wonder what Dave the galloping beaver would have done in this incident described below in the Canadian Press article:

"....... Describing the man as a suspected suicide bomber, Phillips said the unidentified victim in the Canadian incident -- outside the village Senjaray -- approached a patrol, walking along the centre line of the road.

"He appeared to be chanting and refused to heed verbal and visual warnings to stop,'' Phillips said at Kandahar Airfield.

The closer the man came, the stranger he appeared and as the patrol slowed soldiers spotted what they thought were wires sticking from a bulge in the man's jacket"

Two warning shots were quickly snapped off but the man kept coming until a third burst was fired, killing him instantly.

"Upon closer investigation, no explosives were found but the man did have an unusual mix of wire, straps, tubes and other materials fastened to his torso,'' said Phillips, who added a military police investigation has been launched in conjunction with Afghan authorities......." [end quote]

Although Dave, the galloping beaver, has never been in this situation in Afghanistan or, in any place of combat, no doubt good old Dave sitting behind his computer in B.C. could certainly offer a very colorful description; together with his most foulmouthed invective of what HE would have done -- if only in his very active imagination.

[Canadian Blue]

Canadian troops in southern Afghanistan killed an unarmed man Saturday as he walked toward their convoy chanting and wearing what appeared to be explosives around his torso, a military spokesman said.

Lt.-Cmdr. Kris Phillips, a spokesman for the Canadian military, said the man had 'unusual mix of wire, straps, tubes and other materials fastened to his torso.'

(CBC) It was the second deadly shooting of civilians that day by NATO troops in Afghanistan.

Lt.-Cmdr. Kris Phillips, a spokesman for the Canadian military, said the man began walking down the middle of a highway toward the convoy near Kandahar.

After the man ignored orders to stop and warning shots, Canadian troops opened fire and the man was killed at the scene, Phillips said.

He said the man had wires, tubes and straps protruding from his clothing and appeared to be chanting.

Continue Article

"Upon closer investigation, no explosives were found but the man did have an unusual mix of wire, straps, tubes and other materials fastened to his torso," Phillips said.

"We don't really know much about him. His behaviour is perplexing to say the least. We're not sure why he was in the middle of the road. We're not sure why he was approaching one of our convoys. We're not sure why he was behaving the way he was.

"So there are some questions that need to be answered."

Canadian military officials and Afghan police are investigating the incident.

Here is the full story, so what would have you done Catchme?

You see, he was NOT a civilian, he is a Canadian military veteran, if you would've bothered to read his blog you would have found this out. A career veteran at that.

If he is out of the military he is now a civilian. I just caught the blog with all of the rhetoric, and checked for his record but decided not to waste my time. Post his record on here for us all to see.

In fact, it makes me wonder, how an alleged former military person could/would be so denigrating/disparaging about another publically viewable career veteran's opinion.

Because it's all rhetoric, read his entry, it doesn't really impress me much. As well the fact that he think Canadian soldiers don't know they might die when going overseas is BS.

However, I am going to speak with a friend of mine, who was Airborne, when of course we had Airborne, when he gets home later, and see what his opinion is on it, as I am am willing to be open to discussion about this. His wife said she would've been apalled had she heard the PM make non-moral boosting comments like that before he and his regiment were deployed to Cyprus, and later to Somalia. But that is not a military person's view.

My M/Cpl, Sgt, WO, and CO, all said the same thing in Basic. It's not demoralizing, it's reality.

[weaponeer]

As a member of the CF going over in Apr, and now doing pre-deployment training, I can say I would be very scared in this situation. I would follow the given ROE, and if the individual did not respond to warnings, they would go down. No if's, buts or maybe's, BANG, down!! That's Insurgent Warfare.

[PolyNewbie]

Canadian soldiers are fighting and dying overseas for the benefit or international bankers and the global oligarchy. They are protecting a 600 billion dollar per year heroine trade. If you stand behind the troops you cannot possibly be for this war.

[weaponeer]

As for the "moral" comments Harper made, he's just saying it like it is. Cold, hard facts.

June 6, 1944 - Gen DD Esienhower issued a statment about the Normandy landings, calling them "A great crusade". He added in the statment if you read it all, "GREAT CRUSADE, FROM WHICH MANY WILL NEVER RETURN"!!! That's war...

[weaponeer]

Polynewbie,

What's wrong, you get turned down for a loan/mortgage or something??? Banks have always done good by me, I have the housed, boat & 2 cars to prove:)...

[Catchme]

Well, having just had a long conversation with my friend, who was in the Airborne, I find that it isn't any much clearer than before.

He was of 2 minds about it. He felt that in some circumstances, it might be sobering for any new young hot shot recruits who think they are going all gung ho over to fight, might well realize they could be on the receiving end of the shooting, just as well as they could be the shooter. And he said it may well prompt them to be more cautious instead of thinking they were invincible.

But he said on the other hand, there would probably be the same amount who it would instill fear into, and prompt them to be over zealous because of fright, and that some would even dwell on it in a negative manner and feel demoralized. From this persective he said how the PM's words would impact would be on an individual basis.

In the end, his conclusion was that those type of comments would be better off coming from military command and officers so they could better judge the reaction those words were met with by the enlisted men. As, he said; those who reacted badly to it should be screened out, or more evaluation done before they enter a combat situation, as they are dangerous to themselves and others.

And he said in all the years that he was in Airborne, he never heard his commanding officers word anything in that type of negative format, though they all knew it was a possible reality.

______________________________________________________________________________

Those who are trying to excuse the shootings are sounding more and more like the US soldiers who were in Iraq trying to explain away their fear jerk response and killing civilians needlessly.

[weaponeer]

And those who sit on their high horse and feel a moral superiority to judge soldiers when they have no idea what's really going on over there are just cowards......

[Catchme]

Well, that's on topic.