Afghanistan

[Wilber]

it would also be useful to point out that no matter how much Canada spends on their military they will never be a "military industrial complex" or an "arms economy" without billion dollar corporations that make and sell weapons to the world and their own government.

Of course, the idea is ludicrous.

[M.Dancer]

But you can't have a lrge military and low taxes unless you want to take the US route and pass the bill to the next generation.

Not so, you just spend less on something else. Our taxes are not lower than when we had a 100,000 man military. If you are going to talk the talk on an international stage you have to walk the walk to be taken seriously.

The absolute cost of training and equipping soldiers has risen dramatically. When the standard service rifle was a Lee Enfield and the auxillery weapon was the m-61 hand grenade, costs were low. Now they have the c-thingie and kevlar armour, .....

You say we would just spend less on other things, as if Canadians have no choice.....I will tell you this, Canadians wil not support a war overseas if it means depriving ourselves at home. So be prepared.....if we want a 85K military that is modern, we will have a modern deficit and taxes to go with it.

[Army Guy]

Jbobbin:

Hopefully, Canada will not be suffer from this anger. You have to ask though: what happened tp prisoners Canada apprehended and handed over to the U.S.? Do we even keep track of that? Should we?

DND does keep records of all prisoners, when and how they were turned over, after that it becomes a political problem on how they are treated, and they do tract that, as we no longer hand prisoners over to the US , but rather to the afgan authorities. All prisoners are treated humanily as possiable by Canadian soldiers. that is the Law...should we Care how the other countries treat them , to a piont , that piont being they are not being summarily excuted.

Durgan:

It is a pretty sad state of affairs when status of a country is determined by the size of its military. All the money spend to the military is money that could be used for useful purposes. Military spending is a bottomless pit, and those that attempt to fill it are wrong-headed and creates misery for its citizens. No nation ever had an army large enough to guarantee it against attack in time of peace or insure it victory in time of war. - President Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933)

That would depend on your meaning of status ? Can a nation without a large military effect anything on the world stage. Are you saying that the US, russia, China, the UK would have the same influence they have now, without large militaries.

military spending is a bottomless pit, you mean like alot of things we spend our tax dollars on, although it's ok when it's citizens are in danger, or have been threatened. as for the misery of it's citizens i don't know the US has one of the largest military in the world but they enjoy a pretty good avg income, not so for all nations but for France, UK, and most of the western countries they are far from living the life of misery.

Can having a large modern army guarantee it again'st attack, no but it does go along way in deterance.

May I remind the readers that NATO was the organization that was supposed to take on the Russian Juggernaut for about 40 years. If a few Taliban has NATO at a standstill in little Afghanistan, it is a dammed good thing the Russians didn't attack, or we would all be learning their funny alphabet by now.

Im glad you have faith in NATO, or for that matter in our Military, Afganistan is not at a stand still, so you've read a few articles in the papers, I can ensure you the last battle was not a tie or a draw, it was one sided as most of our engagements are, The taliban are not even close to retaking anything back. Yes they blow up a few IED's , a few blow themselfs up in crowds, those are acts of a desparite army, not the acts of an army close to winning. There a bunch of fanitics forced to hide in holes in the mountains because that is where NATO has put them. I can tell you this when we pull up in our lavs at over 100 km an hour and dismount most are running like dogs they are...those that stay and fight are getting thier ticket punched for thier trip to allah.

Our country is now geared to an arms economy, bred in an artifically induced psychosis of war hysteria, and an incessant propaganda of fear. General Douglas MacArthur 1952

I suggest Harper and many other unthinking Canadian's are falling into the actions of the above quote.

Lets hope this psychosis due to unrelenting propaganda doesn't encompass Canada. Afghanistan is the wrong war in the wrong place and the wrong motive, whatever that is.

Durgan.

Explain how your quote reflects on Canada economy today, perhaps you can give us a few examples.

and this is what pisses me off to no end, Canada had no problem with sending it's military forces over to Afgan , Canada's military leadership studied the problem and made it quite clear from the start that this would be a difficult mission and that Canada should be prepared for Casualties...Canadians responded "lets go a fight terrorism on thier ground and to restore order to Afgan....

We (soldiers)are doing that, now they( people of Canada) have had a change of heart, and want us out of there, it's not a Canadian mission, the Government lied to us, the mission Changed, we don't want any more soldiers to die. all BS, nothing has changed except your opinon, that an a fat chance to grab some votes

What ever the reason, they've done a 180 and now want out...and for every reason the people have come up with we the soldiers have countered "you know the men and women that are there doing the fighting and dieing"...But when it comes down to it, you piont your fingers at us and declare us war mongers, a useless arm of our government , an endless monie pit. but do not forget something we are everyday Canadians made up of your brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, we are the ones that put your words into action, at the price of our lives.

So reach down and find your balls you know the same ones you used to send us over here, and make up your F***ing minds what it is you want before i have to go to another ramp cerimony and watch another friend of mine loaded on to a herc, because of your lack of decission, or your lack of courage to see things through..Don't give that shit about time , these things take time, you won't give me or my comrads the time to finish this mission then i will make the same demands on you.

Have your debate, number three i think it is make up your minds once and for all. I write this to you from a pile of rocks in afgan, i'm here because in volunteered to come , because it is my chosen profession, because you sent me here, because i believe it is the right thing to do, because it is a noble cause.

[jdobbin]

DND does keep records of all prisoners, when and how they were turned over, after that it becomes a political problem on how they are treated, and they do tract that, as we no longer hand prisoners over to the US , but rather to the afgan authorities. All prisoners are treated humanily as possiable by Canadian soldiers. that is the Law...should we Care how the other countries treat them , to a piont , that piont being they are not being summarily excuted.

So we knew about some of the prisoners that were subjected to rendition after being apprehended by JTF2?

This was in the news today. Are investigations not being done about this event?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/27092006/2/nati...-involving.html

[Wilber]

You say we would just spend less on other things, as if Canadians have no choice.....I will tell you this, Canadians wil not support a war overseas if it means depriving ourselves at home. So be prepared.....if we want a 85K military that is modern, we will have a modern deficit and taxes to go with it.

If so, we truly are a shallow bunch, not to mention hypocritical and have no credentials to preach to anyone.

Canada is supposed to be such a rich country, particlarly now with the huge demand for commodities. How does Australia with 13M fewer people continually outspend us on the military, both in dollars and percentage of GDP, while still racking up consecutive surpluses?

[killjoy]

Explain how your quote reflects on Canada economy today, perhaps you can give us a few examples.

and this is what pisses me off to no end, Canada had no problem with sending it's military forces over to Afgan , Canada's military leadership studied the problem and made it quite clear from the start that this would be a difficult mission and that Canada should be prepared for Casualties...Canadians responded "lets go a fight terrorism on thier ground and to restore order to Afgan....

We (soldiers)are doing that, now they( people of Canada) have had a change of heart, and want us out of there, it's not a Canadian mission, the Government lied to us, the mission Changed, we don't want any more soldiers to die. all BS, nothing has changed except your opinon, that an a fat chance to grab some votes

What ever the reason, they've done a 180 and now want out...

Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, anyone who knows has been saying it till they're blue in the face.

Oh but you can't fool them. They read the paper, they know what's going on. If the paper says the Taliban have retaken half of Afghanistan then it has no matter what anyone sitting there says. Don't even try to bring up the point about the mission not changing or that the media & people's opinion changed 180. Cripes, they can't even remember what the last commercial was selling let alone what was happening 6 months ago.

Whatever. No matter how many times you tell them they don't listen. No they're gona get the straight goods from some guy in a condo in Toronto that can string some really good 'zingers' together in an article for his daily bread -- oh yeah they know what's really happening there...after all that's what the newspaper ad said: they know everything.

.

[jbg]

You say we would just spend less on other things, as if Canadians have no choice.....I will tell you this, Canadians wil not support a war overseas if it means depriving ourselves at home. So be prepared.....if we want a 85K military that is modern, we will have a modern deficit and taxes to go with it.

I guess that works since the US would effectively be supplying your defense anyway. But we have a term for that relationship; colonial.

[watching&waiting]

It is really sad to see that many people who do not know the first thing about fighting a war, are listened to when they make many statements about the very things they know nothing about. I do not believe that the people who are doing the fighting and those who actually do the planing and issuing the operations during the war, have said anything remotely close to what these other so called reporters have said. Mnay of the reports would have you believe that the Taliban are sitting pretty in Pakistan in a spa like comfort just waiting for the time to be right to retake power in Afghanistan. The truth is the Taliban are too busy hiding themselves in the rocks and caves, and cowering in fear of being found and killed. They do not have the luxury of having a nice place to hold up, even in Pakistan.

The Taliban are a extreme muslim faction, that holds many beliefs from long ago times. There rules and laws suppress the people and the punishments are very severe, especially for women. The think a woman who gets raped should have killed herself to have stopped the act and it is all her fault that she did not do this and now brings shame on her family, so they stone her to death. If by chance he Burka allows a bit of skin to be seen she is publicly whipped. A theft by anyone requires the hands to be chopped off, no matter what was stolen or for what reason. The list goes on and on. But this is what we have now got running and living in the caves a crannies of the mountains. Does anyone think we should let the likes of these people every come back out in the light of day, to again take power? Of course not. Right now Afghanistan has an ellected government and it is one of the most modern thinking goverments in the muslim world. This is a big plus. While we are still there fight for the freedom of many areas such as the southern areas where most of the ousted Taliban and insurgents fled into hiding, we are also training and helping to rebuild the Afghan army so they will be able to one day defned all this for themselves. Right now the Afghan army is 35,000 strong. But they will need an army at least twice that to be able to protect the whole of Afghanistan. As things are fought out and areas become safer, you see that schools and other markers of society taking roots and making the lives of the people more fruitful.

There is nothing being said about these great happenings and also about how we are well received by the people of the villages we have not come to free them from their harsh Taliban masters. Yes there is a lot of harsh things being said about the USA, in all of this, but we are a NATO mission asked for by the elected government. We are not conquors, but liberators. Canada is being thanked daily for our help and courage by the very poeople we are freeing. And to think here at home in Canada we have the likes of the NDP and other foes of our present government, trying to pick at the political bones, in order to try and sway public opinion away from support for the war our troops are presntly fighting and winning. These politcal leaders are as slimely as you can get. Jack Layton, the village idiot of parliament, is a traitor to our Canadian troops and he and his party should be made to pay at the next election by not getting one seat in Parliament. The liberals who are too busy trying to hide all the corruption of their party from the grass roots up, are also now trying to say that the missions has changed, but we all know that nothing has changed and if it had you would have seen some paper trail issued for that change. There are trying to push this all on the government of the day and then try to use it as a wedge issue.

I am glad that the CPC have taken the position of being a responsible government and fully support our troops and the mission it was given back when the Libs were in power. The CPC know what it means to support your troops and they have taken on the role of showing the world that Canada can and will be proud to act with its NATO partners to fight the worst of what the world sees as misguided leaders, and free the people, so they can chose a bettter way to live. Shame on all those who think they can wedge issues and twist them for their own political advantage. That sound more like a Taliban move then it does a Canadian one.

[Army Guy]

jdobbin:

So we knew about some of the prisoners that were subjected to rendition after being apprehended by JTF2?

I can not comment on something that i did not take part in, you wanted to know about procedure, and i gave it to you, What is piont are you trying to make here that we are treating these scumbags according to geneva convention. Yes they are. Does the Government of Canada care what happens to them after we hand them over ,Yes they do.

But lets not get all teary eyed , these guys are harden scumbags that would not afford me or any of my troops the same treatment . or for that matter any westerner. they'd soon as hack your head of with a dull knife for shits an giggles...or for that matter any Afgany who did not subscibe to thier thinking...And if they even for a second stepped outside the rules of conduct for a prisoner i would not think twice about putting a round into.

This was in the news today. Are investigations not being done about this event?

There is an investagation done for every event, regardless if it made it into the paper or not. any discharge of a wpn is looked into. By many different levels, including ones run by the government officals outside DND.

[jdobbin]

I can not comment on something that i did not take part in, you wanted to know about procedure, and i gave it to you, What is piont are you trying to make here that we are treating these scumbags according to geneva convention. Yes they are. Does the Government of Canada care what happens to them after we hand them over ,Yes they do.

This is the first report just out today that has the Red Cross crediting Canada's military for following the Geneva Convention.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01102006/2/nati...urvey-says.html

[jdobbin]

Senior members of the Defence Department have been upset that the Conservatives didn't defend the mission during the summer.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01102006/2/nati...ion-summer.html

There has been a push now that Parliament has been in session. Independent critics suspect that the once a month statement by the government only lead to people concluding things there are not foing well when all they see are the casualties.

Most Canadians believe the mission is a lost cause according to the latest Decima poll.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01102006/2/nati...urvey-says.html

[Argus]

Most Canadians believe the mission is a lost cause according to the latest Decima poll.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01102006/2/nati...urvey-says.html

Yeah, most Canadians want to meet our Kyoto goals too, even though they don't know what they are, or how much that would cost, or whether it's even possible.

Most Canadians are ignorant.

Besides, you have to break down polls like this. All the Lefties are clearly opposed to Afghanistan. But the Lefties don't vote Tory, and never will. There is no reason for Harper to care what they think about anything. I'm willing to bet that if you too a poll of conservative voters, or even potential/possible conservative voters, a strong majority would support the war.

[jdobbin]

Yeah, most Canadians want to meet our Kyoto goals too, even though they don't know what they are, or how much that would cost, or whether it's even possible.

Most Canadians are ignorant.

Besides, you have to break down polls like this. All the Lefties are clearly opposed to Afghanistan. But the Lefties don't vote Tory, and never will. There is no reason for Harper to care what they think about anything. I'm willing to bet that if you too a poll of conservative voters, or even potential/possible conservative voters, a strong majority would support the war.

I don't know if running a campaign calling the Canadians ignorant will work but whatever works.

I think senior members of the Defence department are correct when saying the Conservatives took summer off and didn't articulate what the message they wanted on Afghanistan. The poll concluded just as Karzai came to Canada so perhaps opinion has changed since then but it does give a pretty good snap shot from a very large sampling.

I don't think Harper can ignore it. Decisive eventually becomes arrogant.

[Argus]

Yeah, most Canadians want to meet our Kyoto goals too, even though they don't know what they are, or how much that would cost, or whether it's even possible.

Most Canadians are ignorant.

Besides, you have to break down polls like this. All the Lefties are clearly opposed to Afghanistan. But the Lefties don't vote Tory, and never will. There is no reason for Harper to care what they think about anything. I'm willing to bet that if you too a poll of conservative voters, or even potential/possible conservative voters, a strong majority would support the war.

I don't know if running a campaign calling the Canadians ignorant will work but whatever works.

You don't call them ignorant openly, but let's face it. The Liberal party has run every election on the basis of their belief that Canadians are, by and large, ignorant. And been quite succesful at it. I see it at work all the time, people who don't watch the news or read newspapers, and only get glimpses and bits and pieces of information, paying little attention to it. They have very little idea what's going on politically, and seldom put much thought into the reasons behind what they do know is happening.

[jdobbin]

You don't call them ignorant openly, but let's face it. The Liberal party has run every election on the basis of their belief that Canadians are, by and large, ignorant. And been quite succesful at it. I see it at work all the time, people who don't watch the news or read newspapers, and only get glimpses and bits and pieces of information, paying little attention to it. They have very little idea what's going on politically, and seldom put much thought into the reasons behind what they do know is happening.

Many a campaign has used fear as a tactic. If Harper is able to make Canadians fear for their security in Canada and link it more clearly to the war in Afghanistan, he might be more successful in the polls.

The problem is that Afghanistan was not linked to a Canadian attack. We did lose 24 Canadians on September 11 but we weren't the target. We have supported the United States, NATO and the U.N. subsequently and it was a correct decision at the time but now we are suddenly the pointed end of the stick and support from our allies is waning. How did that happen?

Fear could be a wining strategy but how does one put the fear of consequences about Afghanistan into the minds of Canadians?

[jdobbin]

The National Post reprinted an article from the Telegraph newspaper today on NATO commanders accusing Pakistan of supporting the Taliban.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...6/wafghan06.xml

We have discussed this many times on these pages about the "winnaibility" of Afghanistan when Pakistan helps support the fighters.

I don't think we can trust Musharraf.

[killjoy]

I don't think we can trust Musharraf.

That's a good thunk. Although I'm not so sure I wouldn't replace the word 'trust' with 'rely'. I just don't think there's much he can really do without getting his throat cut.

Pakistani intellegence service: So nice to see your children out pace your wildest imagination in terms of success.

I think I might have a tub of creamcheese in the fridge that's gonna out live him.

.

[jdobbin]

That's a good thunk. Although I'm not so sure I wouldn't replace the word 'trust' with 'rely'. I just don't think there's much he can really do without getting his throat cut.

Pakistani intellegence service: So nice to see your children out pace your wildest imagination in terms of success.

I think I might have a tub of creamcheese in the fridge that's gonna out live him.

Musharaf has been pretty wiley over the years. On his book tour, he said he considered going to war with the United States but dimissed it as not being something he could win. Going to war? This is a hugely provocative statement! For what reason? Is this something that he still harbors? He supported the Taliban until 2001 when he was threatened by the United States. I don't think many in his government have ever stopped supporting the Taliban.

He basically has been able to have his cake and eat it too. He can fight the west and not be a pariah on the world stage because he says the right things.

If NATO forces continue to be killed on a regular basis in Afghanistan by insurgents trained, funded and supplied by Pakistan, how the NATO not look at Pakistan as a threat to security?

One more soldier killed in Afghanistan today.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/07102006/2/worl...fghanistan.html

[jdobbin]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/10/10/a...n-security.html

CBC is reporting that Afghan forces are letting Canada take the lead in defending Panjawi district. There is a feeling that Afghan forces are just undermanned, under paid and under equipped to continue a long fight.

[jdobbin]

Canada surpasses Britian's total loss in Afghanistan.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/afghan_cda_attack

Two more Canadian soldiers were killed in the Panjawi district. Reconstruction teams can't seem like to leave the base without coming under attack.

Despite the upsurge in support for the mission in the last month, it is this type of repeated attack that saps the confidence of the Canadian public in a resolution being found.

[Ricki Bobbi]

Two more Canadian soldiers were killed in the Panjawi district. Reconstruction teams can't seem like to leave the base without coming under attack.

Despite the upsurge in support for the mission in the last month, it is this type of repeated attack that saps the confidence of the Canadian public in a resolution being found.

jdobbin we get that you are against the mission. But you *always* say public opinion is turning against it even when the evidence runs contrary. Believe what you will, but I think you admitted how weak your argument is with your "Despite the upsurge..."

Canadians are favouring the mission more and more. The number of causalties will fall after the move from Panjawi is completed.

[jdobbin]

And on Friday A U.S. soldier was killed in a suicide car bombing. It is increasingly becoming the leading tactic along with roadside bombs.

http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/artic...822082689827576

[Ricki Bobbi]

If you're gonna pull grehatrick's tactic of ignoring posts you don't like, I'll just keep putting them up.

jdobbin we get that you are against the mission. But you *always* say public opinion is turning against it even when the evidence runs contrary. Believe what you will, but I think you admitted how weak your argument is with your "Despite the upsurge..."

Canadians are favouring the mission more and more. The number of causalties will fall after the move from Panjawi is completed.

[Topaz]

I'm just wondering which is going to come first, running out of troops or the end of the war??

[Big Blue Machine]

The price of victory is never cheap.