Options for Israel

[Army Guy]

BD:

So basically, you want another civil war. I doubt many Lebanese would be all that gung ho. Look, Hizbullah may be the ultimate source of thier misery, but its also a very powerful and inluential faction and not just militarily. Destroying Hizbullah would mean destroying the network of social supports the political wing of the group has built up which many depend on. In fact, Israel's actions may force people to depend on Hizbullah even more.

I would have thought that a chioce between a civil war, or an actual war with Israel ,one would pick a civil war. Lebanon does have the resources to get rid of the Hez and other terrorist groups, but chose not to.

In fact if the lebanese gov't had taken action to contain the Hez , israel would not be forced into thier current situation. There inacvtion has sent a clear message ,well clear to most of us ...that there are not willing to do anything about there home grown terrorist groups, and are depending on world presure to keep Israel at bay...sort of have your cake and eat it to.

Ultimately, you can't expect the Lebanese people to be responsible for the actions of a non-state actor

Yes we can, in fact we have made other nations do the same thing, Afgan comes to mind. If your nation is willing to allow these terrorists reak havoc around the world or just again'st another nation, you can't cry foul when those nations take action for you or again'st you.

Uh...the rules of war exist to provide some kind of moral framework for an otherwise immoral endeavor. If we behave in defiance of these moral precepts, even to combat others who ignor ethos erules, what claim to moral superiority do we have? Labels like terrorist would soon cease to have any meaning

We are quickly finding out the hard way, that alot of these rules work again'st us instead of for us.

We have no claim to the moral superiority over anyone. what we do have a responsability is our own nation and it's security. By using the terrorists own tools and methods again'st him such as what Isreal did over the Olympic incident there would be no terroist left...

But you certainly wouldn't have much sympathy for those who did it. Anyway, collective punishment is a war crime for good reason. It's barbaric.

No i would not have much sympathy for them, but also a deeper respect or perhaps fear for there use of violence...and the fear it would be used again'st my family... Yes it is,a war crime but then so is all forms of warfare are barbaric.

They're doing a pretty piss poor job of it. They've managed to kill: what, 200 civilians? For a handful of Hizbullah fighters. Look, if they wanted to push into southern lebanon to find and destroy the rocket sites, fine. But bombing Beirut is not going to stop Hizbullah.

Actually if you take a look at what targets have been hit, you'll quickly change your minds, thier goals are not to kill the hez with air strikes but to soften them for a ground assault. they want to contain them in one area so a ground assault will be effective.

[Machinations]

Machinations: 'Israel has the 4th most powerful military in the world'

According to whom? You'll pardon me for questioning you, General, but you haven't thus far given us reason to believe you have a great deal of familiarity or expertise with military matters - or anything, actually.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...rael/index.html

You'd do well by a little research, private. This is what I allude to - your absolute lack of learning and your seeming disinterest in seeking it out. I have actually provided citations for my posts, unlike your diatribes and assertations.

This will also help: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html (check military section)

From the CIA World Factbook:

17 years of age for compulsory (Jews, Druzes) and voluntary (Christians, Muslims, Circassians) military service; both sexes are eligible for military service; conscript service obligation - 36 months for men, 21 months for women (2004)

[jdobbin]

To be honest, Argus, your opinions deserve the put downs, since you would be ridiculed out of any university setting. The anti-intellectual stance of your 'positions' - which are unsupported by facts - reflect the dogmatic position of an ideologue.

You deserve every ounce of my sneering, you shoddy excuse for a human being.

Careful. He might report you. Of course that might bring attention to his own behaviour.

[Machinations]

To be honest, Argus, your opinions deserve the put downs, since you would be ridiculed out of any university setting. The anti-intellectual stance of your 'positions' - which are unsupported by facts - reflect the dogmatic position of an ideologue.

You deserve every ounce of my sneering, you shoddy excuse for a human being.

Careful. He might report you. Of course that might bring attention to his own behaviour.

I am just terrified, can't you tell? In all honesty, it is probably his only option left - shoot the messenger.

[GostHacked]

I am wondering when enough will be enough for some of you. You support Israel, and tout they have the right and right reasons to retaliate. I am wondering when decide that they have crossed the line from retalitory attacks to outright invasion. Will you let the battle go months before saying that it is too much? What is too much for you folks? What is your tolerance level for these attacks? How many innocent civilains have to die before you step in and say. enough IS enough.

Israel is planning a long operation. One Israeli general warned that it could spill into months. (CBSnews.com) When will you say that this operation was wrong? When Hezbollah dies? Or when too many civilians are killed? If you see these questsions as the same, then that scares me.

Israel needs to stop. Gaza and Lebanon are hurting now. Innocent lives are being taken. More Palestinians and Lebanese are being killed than Jews. 330 Lebanese(majority civilians.), 40 Jews.

Israel is warning people to get the hell out of town. That tells me they will bomb indiscriminantly. Anything and everything. This is no longer a tactical strategic operation, this is a blanked bombing campaing by Israel now. Beruit will be cleaning up the rubble for the next 5 years. Harldy seems fair.

I guess the right thing would be for Lebanon calling a cease fire, and asking for the UN to step in. But will the UN step in?

I want to address about the people living there. Americans, Canadians ect (also dubbed Citizens of Convenience haha) Some want to live there permenantly. Somehow some members on this board make them out to be the dumbest peoople on the planet. Maybe they are there to help improve life there, they saw an oppoutunity to make things better.

Do you really think this will kill anti-Israeli feelings? Or actually double it. or tripple it? Israel is not stopping anytime soon.

[Alexandra]

Excuse me for interrupting Machinations. But. There is no such word as assertations.

[GostHacked]

Excuse me for interrupting Machinations. But. There is no such word as assertations.

Aint', ain't a word .. but it is.

Internet was not a word before either.

Assertation IS a word however. But this is really a waste of a reply to a waste of a reply.

[Machinations]

Excuse me for interrupting Machinations. But. There is no such word as assertations.

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2...o3=&s=assertion

Meh. I write fast, and 'Google' is a word. C'est la vie. Assertions would be correct.

Of course, that being said, did anyone bother to read my cite? Israel does have the 4th most powerful military in the world. End of story.

[Army Guy]

Machinations:

Is the fact that Lebanon is their home not good enough? Perhaps they are unable to leave? Have you ever been an international refugee?

this is not Iran it is lebanon, they have access to travel, Home or no home i personal would not risk the safety of my family by raising them in a war torn country. come to think of it if a had a dual citizenship that decission would be an easy on would it not...It's funny how now of the newly arrived refugees have stated that they could not escape or were not permitted to travel.

How long did you think about this? 5 minutes? 15?

I may ask you the same thing professor, i hope this is not your major, i really hope history is not your job.

The civil war started in 1975

This is the only correct statement you have made in your post

after Lebanon absorbed huge numbers of Palestinian refugees expelled from Israel. Israel invaded in 1982 and ignited a full-scale conflict. The war ended in 1990. Now stop talking and start reading you have some catching up to do I'd say.

But you failed to mention that Jordan orginally drove the PLO and large numbers of palistinians into lebanon when Jordan purged them from thier country. you also failed to mention that the lebanese excepted them with open arms....

King Hussein decided it was time to act. Throughout September the Jordanian military launched attacks to push the PLO out of Jordan, attacks now called "Black September" by the PLO. Casualty reports are uncertain, but hundreds or perhaps thousands of PLO fadayeen were killed in the fighting and large numbers of Palestinian Arab civilians died as well. Arafat retreated to northern Jordan, close to his Syrian sponsors. Within 10 months the PLO were driven out of Jordan completely, and re-established themselves in Lebanon, a choice that led to eventual disaster for Lebanon.

My Webpage

King Hussein of Jordan ejected Arafat's Palestinians in September 1970, called Black September because they were trying to take over his kingdom. King Hussein drove them into Lebanon after killing more than 10,000. The Lebanese welcomed the fleeing Palestinians into their bosom, but suddenly found themselves under attack by Arafat's Palestinians who set up a mini Terror State within Lebanon. For the next 12 years terror raged and over 100,000 Lebanese were murdered by their Palestinian brothers

100,000 in 12 years, how many have to be killed before the lebanese act. sounds like a place i'd like to raise a family.

Below is why the civil started, "see i have google to"

My Webpage

The spark that ignited the war occurred in Beirut on April 13, 1975, when gunmen killed four Phalangists during an attempt on Pierre Jumayyil's life. Perhaps believing the assassins to have been Palestinian, the Phalangists retaliated later that day by attacking a bus carrying Palestinian passengers across a Christian neighborhood, killing about twenty-six of the occupants. The next day fighting erupted in earnest, with Phalangists pitted against Palestinian militiamen (thought by some observers to be from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). The confessional layout of Beirut's various quarters facilitated random killing. Most residents of Beirut stayed inside their homes during these early days of battle, and few imagined that the street fighting they were witnessing was the beginning of a war that was to devastate their city and divide the country

Perhaps you can enlighten us all on just where your getting your facts, or are you making history up as you go.

[Army Guy]

Geoffrey:

Did you go fight the FLQ with guns in the streets until they were rooted out? Why not, it seems like you think its your personal responsibility to go fight terrorism in your country... are you on a hunt for the latest sleeper cell too??

No, but my father was involved with the canadian military operations , which did hunt them down, see there is the difference our country did take action. We did not sit by and do nothing.

And yes i do think it is my personal responsiabilty to fight terrorism (but i'm a member of our miltary) not only here in Canada but overseas as well, by end month i will be departing for my 2 and tour in afgan.

So let me ask you this geoffrey, would you not defend this country from terrorists, would you protect your family and what is yours. I would hope you would, i would hope all canadians would. History is full of countries that did just that, i mean hey if those damn frenchmen from France can do it, surely we could as canadians.

Perhaps i'm full of shit, but as a soldier that serves his country i truely believe that other canadians would also answer the call, as our history proudly shows us we have done in the past.

Every Canadian should personally shoulder the responsibility of any al-Qaeda attack that involved this country following your logic

Yes, that is exactly what i'm saying. There are many ways to take action, just reporting terrorist activity to the authorities is taking action. And if the our government is unable to take action because it is inept, or taken over then i think that some Canadians would take matters into thier own hands in some matter. Not all action requires violence or killing.

[Machinations]

Perhaps you can enlighten us all on just where your getting your facts, or are you making history up as you go.

You have yet to show me where I am in error.

You fail to mention that Israel does not absorb them either - even with its discrimnatory, two-tier society, Israel wishes to take their land, not the people on it. Where did I say that I supported the King of Jordan? I expect barbaric activity from a monarchy - I do not from a so-called 'western democracy'.

It seems to be you are backing up my earlier statement - in order for Israel to acheive peace in the region, and security, they need to come to a compromise with the Palestinians - give them some land and give up the idea of 'Greater Israel'.

[August1991]

It seems to be you are backing up my earlier statement - in order for Israel to acheive peace in the region, and security, they need to come to a compromise with the Palestinians - give them some land and give up the idea of 'Greater Israel'.

Israel has repeatedly tried to come to agreements with surrounding Arabs over the past 60 years. They have managed to sign treaties with Jordan and Egypt. They even negotiated a "road map" for peace with Arafat.

Hizballah and Hamas are different. Urged on by Syria and Iran, there is no negotiation with them. They want to push Israel into the sea.

Perhaps you have heard of Maryam Farhat, who sits in the Palestine Legislature as a member of Hamas. Three of her six children were suicide bombers.

Here is what she said about peace and Israel (in December 2005):

The word "peace" does not mean the kind of peace we are experiencing. This peace is, in fact, surrender and a shameful disgrace. Peace means the liberation of all of Palestine, from the (Jordan) to the (Mediterranean) Sea. When this is accomplished – if they want peace, we will be ready. They may live under the banner of the Islamic state. That is the future of Palestine that we are striving towards.

Dream2, Egyptian TV

Here's what Hassan Nasrallah (head of Hizballah) said about Israel (in 2000, his views have not changed):

I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called "Israel." I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.

Washington Post

We in the West have only recently seen this kind of fanaticism. What Israel has endured over the past decades may well become our lot in the future.

[jdobbin]

We in the West have only recently seen this kind of fanaticism. What Israel has endured over the past decades may well become our lot in the future.

Israel indeed has to deal with fanaticism of the like most nations hope to never see.

I fear that Lebanon is a quagmire that won't get the soldiers back. I do believe that Syria and Iran have to be dealt with for exporting violence but that is a task that only the United States can do realistically.

At some point, Israel will have to decide "stay or go" in Lebanon. And if it is stay, how long? If it is go, who do you turn things over to?

It is a scary situation that may not resolve their security problem or get their soldiers back. And worse yet, it may leave Lebanon so weak that it becomes a client state of Syria in ways far worse than now.

[Army Guy]

Machinations:

Of course, that being said, did anyone bother to read my cite? Israel does have the 4th most powerful military in the world. End of story

This country is not the 4th most powerful military nation in the world.

a couple of sites does not make Isreal the 4 th most powerful military in the world, especially when your links don't work.

My Webpage[/url

My Webpage

in fact Isreal does not even make the top 10

[Army Guy]

Machinations:

How long did you think about this? 5 minutes? 15? The civil war started in 1975 after Lebanon absorbed huge numbers of Palestinian refugees expelled from Israel. Israel invaded in 1982 and ignited a full-scale conflict. The war ended in 1990. Now stop talking and start reading you have some catching up to do I'd say

You have yet to show me where I am in error.

Lets start from the beginning shall we.

The civil war started in 1975 after Lebanon absorbed huge numbers of Palestinian refugees expelled from Israel

Yes Lebanon has absorbed large qtys of palestians from Isreal, But that is not what caused the civil war as you suggested, in fact Jordan expelled more palestinians into lebanon at the time than Isreal could have ever do. And it was jordans actions that were the start of lebanons problems...

Israel invaded in 1982 and ignited a full-scale conflict.

Yes Israel did invade in 1982, but again this conflict was well under way before this date, and if you had read the link i gave you Israel was responding to attacks agains't it juast like today....

The war ended in 1990.

No the accord was signed in 89 with some violence until 91

You fail to mention that Israel does not absorb them either - even with its discrimnatory, two-tier society, Israel wishes to take their land, not the people on it.

Actually if your talking about the west bank, it was owned by the Jordanians up until 67, and taken in conflict from the jordanians in a defensive war. Not the palestinians. and those that were left behind in those lands were called jordanians not palestinians and they were given the chose to leave,or live under Israelis rule.

if you want to piont fingers, Isreal is not the only middle east country with a multi tier society in fact most are. including the lebanonese.

Only a small fraction has been able to acquire Lebanese citizenship. The greatest majority remains stateless; they were treated as foreigners, they have rights of property ownership, investment and employment by permit. Obtaining a work permit remains a complex and lengthy process that offers neither social security nor insurance benefits nor a regular wage increase, and becomes invalid when its holder is laid off the job. Moreover, employment in large institutions is largely closed to Palestinians because it is governed by sectarian rules.(10) Palestinians, however continue to be excluded from more than 72 professions. These restrictions force them to work in the informal sector with low wages, insecurity and no benefits.

With regard to education, Palestinians are excluded from Lebanese governmental educational institutions for higher education. Further, Palestinians are also finding it impossible to enter the government secondary schools.

Restrictions on building and reconstruction in the camps contribute to the insecurity of Palestinians in Lebanon. They continue to live in indecent, semi-destroyed and unfurnished buildings. Rebuilding in the camps has been strictly and legally controlled, with severe overcrowding as a result. Today, between 150,000 and 200,000 Palestinian refugees live in 12 registered refugee camps that are prepared to accommodate 50,000 refugees.(11) The Lebanese state reluctance to absorb the refugees has led to the perpetuation of the refugee camps set in 1948 and 1967.

My Webpage

[Rue]

Perhaps you can enlighten us all on just where your getting your facts, or are you making history up as you go.

You have yet to show me where I am in error.

You fail to mention that Israel does not absorb them either - even with its discrimnatory, two-tier society, Israel wishes to take their land, not the people on it. Where did I say that I supported the King of Jordan? I expect barbaric activity from a monarchy - I do not from a so-called 'western democracy'.

It seems to be you are backing up my earlier statement - in order for Israel to acheive peace in the region, and security, they need to come to a compromise with the Palestinians - give them some land and give up the idea of 'Greater Israel'.

See its comments like this that reflect your ignorance for Israel's immigration policies and laws. Israel has repeatedly offered citizenship to any Muslim born within Israel and always has and many are Israeli citizens and are Muslim or Druze of Christian.

For that matter Israel took in Albanian Muslim refugees during the civil war in Yogoslavia in a far larger ratio per its population size then any other country in the world.

You say its a discriminatory two tier society. I again repeat, Israel law guarantees the use of Arabic in schools, government and in Parliament and Arab Israelis and Muslim Israels have the exact identical rights as to land ownership, voting and anything else as Jewish Israelis.

In fact the Supreme Court of Israel has awarded many Muslim Israelis compensation in law suits against the Israeli government so you are just absolutely and utterly wrong.

What you are doing is parroting an ignorance that comes from your conception of Zionism.

Let us be clear. Because of the constant state of seige Israel finds itself in, every citizen from the age of 18 to 65 is in the army and can be called up in a moment's notice. That means everyone is in the armed forces and knows someone in the armed forces and the entire society is a network of people in the military.

So if you are an Arab or Christian Israeli, chances are you are not going to be asked to join the army and so that leaves you on the outside looking in when it comes to job interviews or security checks before you are hired. That is what makes it difficult for Muslim Israelis and Christian Israelis NOT government condoned or institutionalized discrimination.

Do some research before you utter inaccurate stereotypes of your ignorance of Israeli society. Better still take yourself there and talk to its citizens before you make such statements and understand first hand what it is like to live there whether you are Jewish or not. There is no conspiracy going on by Israeli Jews to turn Muslim Jews or Christian Jews into sub-humans.

Israel does not practice dhimmitude. In fact the second class citizenship and treatment and institutionalized discrimination goes on in each and every Muslim country against non Muslims not Israel and you should take the time to speak to Christians, Jews or Bahaiis that have tried to live in the Muslim world.

[Rue]

Machinations:

How long did you think about this? 5 minutes? 15? The civil war started in 1975 after Lebanon absorbed huge numbers of Palestinian refugees expelled from Israel. Israel invaded in 1982 and ignited a full-scale conflict. The war ended in 1990. Now stop talking and start reading you have some catching up to do I'd say

You have yet to show me where I am in error.

Lets start from the beginning shall we.

The civil war started in 1975 after Lebanon absorbed huge numbers of Palestinian refugees expelled from Israel

Yes Lebanon has absorbed large qtys of palestians from Isreal, But that is not what caused the civil war as you suggested, in fact Jordan expelled more palestinians into lebanon at the time than Isreal could have ever do. And it was jordans actions that were the start of lebanons problems...

Israel invaded in 1982 and ignited a full-scale conflict.

Yes Israel did invade in 1982, but again this conflict was well under way before this date, and if you had read the link i gave you Israel was responding to attacks agains't it juast like today....

The war ended in 1990.

No the accord was signed in 89 with some violence until 91

You fail to mention that Israel does not absorb them either - even with its discrimnatory, two-tier society, Israel wishes to take their land, not the people on it.

Actually if your talking about the west bank, it was owned by the Jordanians up until 67, and taken in conflict from the jordanians in a defensive war. Not the palestinians. and those that were left behind in those lands were called jordanians not palestinians and they were given the chose to leave,or live under Israelis rule.

if you want to piont fingers, Isreal is not the only middle east country with a multi tier society in fact most are. including the lebanonese.

Only a small fraction has been able to acquire Lebanese citizenship. The greatest majority remains stateless; they were treated as foreigners, they have rights of property ownership, investment and employment by permit. Obtaining a work permit remains a complex and lengthy process that offers neither social security nor insurance benefits nor a regular wage increase, and becomes invalid when its holder is laid off the job. Moreover, employment in large institutions is largely closed to Palestinians because it is governed by sectarian rules.(10) Palestinians, however continue to be excluded from more than 72 professions. These restrictions force them to work in the informal sector with low wages, insecurity and no benefits.

With regard to education, Palestinians are excluded from Lebanese governmental educational institutions for higher education. Further, Palestinians are also finding it impossible to enter the government secondary schools.

Restrictions on building and reconstruction in the camps contribute to the insecurity of Palestinians in Lebanon. They continue to live in indecent, semi-destroyed and unfurnished buildings. Rebuilding in the camps has been strictly and legally controlled, with severe overcrowding as a result. Today, between 150,000 and 200,000 Palestinian refugees live in 12 registered refugee camps that are prepared to accommodate 50,000 refugees.(11) The Lebanese state reluctance to absorb the refugees has led to the perpetuation of the refugee camps set in 1948 and 1967.

My Webpage

To be perfectly accurate and clear the West Bank was never intended to be part of Jordan. It was seized by Jordan during the initial War of Israeli independence but the actual territory of the West Bank was not intended for Jordan and the absorbing of it by Jordan was illegal and the borders are what is called de facto borders. They were established by war and occupation not international treaty.

Under international law, de facto borders can become recognized as permanent legal borders, but only after an extended period of time without war or contestation.

In the North of Canada, the US, Russia, Britain, France, Denmark and numerous other nations are trying to establish under international law that Canada does not have a sovereign claim to the North because it doesn't use it. That is why they send their submarines and ships through the Northern seas.

The pre-1967 border of Israel was only created because that is what Israel captured after the entire Arab Leaguue refused to go along with the Muslim and Jewish enclaves far smaller in size proposed by the Belfour declaration. Israel's pre-1967 border was a de facto border, i.e., one established by war but under international law never subject to years of acceptance required to turn it into legal borders.

This is why when the Arab world uses the pre-1967 borders as its basis for one peace proposal its an absurd joke because this is the same Arab league that would not recognize these pre-1967 borders before 1967 and only started referring to them after Israel was forced in the 1967 war in which it seized the West Bank and Sinai and Golan Heights precisely for the same reasons it always did, to prevent terrorists from coming across its borders and to create buffer zones.

To understand Israel's tiny size and its vulnerability to attacks you must travel and see with your own eyes how small it is and how easy it is to kill people driving in to Jerusalem or living under the Golan Heights, or next to the Gaza Strip or Sinai, etc. Its tiny and its compact and its a security nightmare.

The expanded borders after 1967 were also de facto borders created from war.

In fact the Arab league to this date can not even decide where many of its nations borders should be. There are on-going disputes between Morrocco and the former Spanish Sahara, between Morrocco and Algeria, between Libya and Chad, between Chad and Somalia, between Somalia and Ethiopia and Eritrea, between Syria, Iraq and Lebanon, between Iran and The Soviet Union, bedtween Iraq, Iran and Turkey.

This notion that the Arab world only has a problemw ith Israel's borders is pure b.s.

More to the point under international law, we have yet to determine what borders Israel should have because the majority of the Arab League is still officially at war with Israel and does not recognize its existence or right to exist. Although it has an unwritten truce with Jordan, Jordan does not legally rezognize it. In fact Egypt is the only country with an official treaty with it but does not exchange ambassadors but more low level officials.

[Argus]

Just curious here, Mach old buddy, but if you have all this great education and knowledge, how come you can't manage to put over an opinion here which isn't almost entirely devoted to emotional twaddle and sneering put-downs?

To be honest, Argus, your opinions deserve the put downs, since you would be ridiculed out of any university setting. The anti-intellectual stance of your 'positions' - which are unsupported by facts - reflect the dogmatic position of an ideologue.

You deserve every ounce of my sneering, you shoddy excuse for a human being.

Reported to moderator.

[Argus]

To be honest, Argus, your opinions deserve the put downs, since you would be ridiculed out of any university setting. The anti-intellectual stance of your 'positions' - which are unsupported by facts - reflect the dogmatic position of an ideologue.

You deserve every ounce of my sneering, you shoddy excuse for a human being.

Careful. He might report you. Of course that might bring attention to his own behaviour.

I have been fairly careful to attack his moronic ideas and not him.

And yes, I have reported him, several times, for persistant personal attacks.

[Argus]

Machinations: 'Israel has the 4th most powerful military in the world'

According to whom? You'll pardon me for questioning you, General, but you haven't thus far given us reason to believe you have a great deal of familiarity or expertise with military matters - or anything, actually.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...rael/index.html

You'd do well by a little research, private. This is what I allude to - your absolute lack of learning and your seeming disinterest in seeking it out. I have actually provided citations for my posts, unlike your diatribes and assertations.

And I would so like to tell you how much I admire you for posting those citations. Even though none of them actually say what you think they do.

This will also help: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html (check military section)

Gee, sorry. That didn't help either.

So once again I ask, just where do you get the idea those evil Jews have the 4th most powerful military on Earth?

[Argus]

Of course, that being said, did anyone bother to read my cite? Israel does have the 4th most powerful military in the world. End of story.

Why, yes, I did! However, they don't say that. So sorry.

[geoffrey]

They do get alot of military aid from the Americans, so their expenditures would be proportionately smaller. No amount of aid would make them 4th most powerful... they spend as much as Canada!!

That being said, what does it matter? The Hutu's killed 800,000 Tutsi's mostly with their hands and hand weapons. Military has nothing to do with it, attitude is everything.

As long as the UN or even NATO stands by and watches they lose crediability. It should be a UN force disarming Hezbollah immediately, that way, no Israeli invasion, no more rocket attacks, no more innocent people dying on either side of the conflict. It's a solution that would work if any world leader had the balls to do it.

It's not Israel's fault that they are resorting to this violence (though it is their fault that their response isn't measured), I blame it on the peacekeeping mission's failure to get active and disarm Hezbollah.

Good thing it's only a few hundred people dead in this conflict, it should have been zero though.

Where is our Pearson?

[Argus]

I am wondering when enough will be enough for some of you. You support Israel, and tout they have the right and right reasons to retaliate. I am wondering when decide that they have crossed the line from retalitory attacks to outright invasion. Will you let the battle go months before saying that it is too much? What is too much for you folks? What is your tolerance level for these attacks? How many innocent civilains have to die before you step in and say. enough IS enough.

Having no personal stake here, I tend to look at things in a jaundiced fashion using realpolitik, not emotions.

The situation there is unacceptable. Isreal cannot be expected to sit idly by while terrorists sheltering under another nation's flag launch repeated attacks across its borders. It has a responsibility to defend its citizens, and I don't, frankly, give a rats ass if the dead in Israel are less than the dead in Lebanon. The Israelis have the right to do anything neccesary to defend their people.

Israel is planning a long operation. One Israeli general warned that it could spill into months. (CBSnews.com) When will you say that this operation was wrong? When Hezbollah dies? Or when too many civilians are killed? If you see these questsions as the same, then that scares me.

I recognize many innocent people are dying in Lebanon. That's a shame. but it doesn't influence how I feel. I support Israel simply because it's right. Any other nation would have done the same. The Lebanese need to deal with their terrorism issue. They hate Israel. Fine. So does Syria, but it is smart enough not to allow terrorists to launch attacks across its borders against Israel. The Lebanese need to secure their borders. If the Israelis need to sterilize everything withing thirty kilometers of their border in order to stop terrorists from launching rockets, then I'll accept that.

Israel needs to stop. Gaza and Lebanon are hurting now. Innocent lives are being taken.

Emotional twaddle. "The Allies need to stop now. France and Germany are hurting. Many innocent lives are being taken. And the Nazis aren't so bad anyway" I guess we should pull back and negotiate, eh?

More Palestinians and Lebanese are being killed than Jews. 330 Lebanese(majority civilians.), 40 Jews.

And what possible relevence is that? It wouldn't matter if the number were ten thousand to one. If the Lebanese are too cowardly or stupid to stop those among them who are attacking Israel then they should just all pick up and leave, go live in Syria or somewhere else, abandon the whole country and let Hezbollah play in it.

Israel is warning people to get the hell out of town. That tells me they will bomb indiscriminantly. Anything and everything. This is no longer a tactical strategic operation, this is a blanked bombing campaing by Israel now.

Who says that's not tactical strategy? Clear everyone away from the border and with the civilians gone the terrorists will have a hard time hiding. They'll either be killed or run away. In either case they won't be firing rockets into Israel.

Do you really think this will kill anti-Israeli feelings? Or actually double it. or tripple it? Israel is not stopping anytime soon.

I don't care if it increases the hate people feel towards Israel. Although, frankly, the Arabs already hate Israel so much I don't think it can be increased much more. And the mindless Left in the West is similarly full of hate.

The Israelis should ignore them all and just do what needs doing.

[Argus]

As long as the UN or even NATO stands by and watches they lose crediability. It should be a UN force disarming Hezbollah immediately, that way, no Israeli invasion, no more rocket attacks, no more innocent people dying on either side of the conflict. It's a solution that would work if any world leader had the balls to do it.

Why should they? I mean, really. You think Hezbollah is just going to hand over its weapons to the UN? They'll fight a guerrila war, melt into the countryside, into the villages, into the slums of south Beirut, sniping and setting IEDs and blowing themselves up. UN soldiers will die - for what? To keep the peace? You think innocent civilians won't die in a guerrila war between Hezbollah and the UN? Because the UN's bullets, bombs, tank shells and missiles never miss their targets?

So the leader of Germany, or Canada for that matter, is going to offer up his own soldiers to die in a fight against Hezbollah to protect Israel? While Israel sits back and watches, presumably. I'm sure Israel would like that! But why would I as a Canadian leader, want my soldiers to die in that mess to spare THE WORLD'S 4TH MOST POWERFUL MILITARY from the casualties it would take in protecting their own people?

[geoffrey]

Having no personal stake here, I tend to look at things in a jaundiced fashion using realpolitik, not emotions.

The situation there is unacceptable. Isreal cannot be expected to sit idly by while terrorists sheltering under another nation's flag launch repeated attacks across its borders. It has a responsibility to defend its citizens, and I don't, frankly, give a rats ass if the dead in Israel are less than the dead in Lebanon. The Israelis have the right to do anything neccesary to defend their people.

And Lebanon has a right to defense of it's soverignty... a right they aren't executing... I wonder why? Maybe Lebanon has no interest in having Hezbollah within their borders?

They have the right to defend their people in reasonable terms. Bombing apartment buildings with 400 people in them to get 1 Hezbollah operative isn't reasonable, no matter how you spin it to me.

I recognize many innocent people are dying in Lebanon. That's a shame. but it doesn't influence how I feel. I support Israel simply because it's right. Any other nation would have done the same. The Lebanese need to deal with their terrorism issue. They hate Israel. Fine. So does Syria, but it is smart enough not to allow terrorists to launch attacks across its borders against Israel. The Lebanese need to secure their borders. If the Israelis need to sterilize everything withing thirty kilometers of their border in order to stop terrorists from launching rockets, then I'll accept that.

If they hated Israel, they would have voted for Hezbollah in the elections, instead they voted for moderate peace favouring people 9 to 1. Why?

This isn't Palestine Argus, I'm on your side there, bomb the shit of them, they voted in majority to support a government that wants to see Israel violently destroyed. Lebanon isn't a violence favouring country and are accepting of Israel. There are alot of Christians there, this isn't an Islam vs. Judaism conflict.

Israel needs to stop. Gaza and Lebanon are hurting now. Innocent lives are being taken.

Emotional twaddle. "The Allies need to stop now. France and Germany are hurting. Many innocent lives are being taken. And the Nazis aren't so bad anyway" I guess we should pull back and negotiate, eh?

As GWB rightly said, this isn't the world we lived in during the Second World War. The whole "we aren't fighting Iraq, we are fighting terrorism" concept. Bush never said let's punish the Iraqi's into thinking they should get rid of Saddam, never said kill innocent Afghani's until they rid the Taliban and fall into an emotional love fest with those that were bombing them. He fought the enemy. Israel is not.

More Palestinians and Lebanese are being killed than Jews. 330 Lebanese(majority civilians.), 40 Jews.

And what possible relevence is that? It wouldn't matter if the number were ten thousand to one. If the Lebanese are too cowardly or stupid to stop those among them who are attacking Israel then they should just all pick up and leave, go live in Syria or somewhere else, abandon the whole country and let Hezbollah play in it.

Zero relevance. The numbers don't matter, the motive does. Again I ask Argus, what did you do personally to prevent the FLQ from attacking and kidnapping foreign nationals? I'm assuming you feel if you should be killed in a bombing by the British at the time it would have been acceptable and just? I mean, you didn't get off your lazy ass to fight the FLQ in the streets?

Israel is warning people to get the hell out of town. That tells me they will bomb indiscriminantly. Anything and everything. This is no longer a tactical strategic operation, this is a blanked bombing campaing by Israel now.

Who says that's not tactical strategy? Clear everyone away from the border and with the civilians gone the terrorists will have a hard time hiding. They'll either be killed or run away. In either case they won't be firing rockets into Israel.

The Americans are far better at picking targets, they were flying bombs through windows into certain freaking rooms. If Israel knew where Hezbollah was, they could do the same, they have the yankee technology, but unfortunately no intelligence. They figure if they bomb a neighbour full of people though, that they'll kill some Hezbollah. They are right... but at what cost.

Do you really think this will kill anti-Israeli feelings? Or actually double it. or tripple it? Israel is not stopping anytime soon.

I don't care if it increases the hate people feel towards Israel. Although, frankly, the Arabs already hate Israel so much I don't think it can be increased much more. And the mindless Left in the West is similarly full of hate.

The Israelis should ignore them all and just do what needs doing.

Lebanon doesn't hate Israel, I'm sure they do now. Your right when it comes to Palestine and Syria, I couldn't care what those freak's of nation's think either. I'm not on the Left, I'm very conservative. I just don't see logic or ethics in Israel's response.