Options for Israel

[Argus]

You know what you find when you look between the lines? White space! Which you can, of course, interpret however you want. If the US was concerned about Canadian security it's probably been because the previous Liberal government showed absolutely no sign of interest in the security of our borders. Fortunately, Canada's new government will likely draw much more respect and raise the comfort level down south.

Your intro here is funny, kudos.

Since this is a tangent, let me add:

You seem like a wild partisan. I think you would vote for a panda if it had a 'Conservative' sticker slapped on its back.

You'd be wrong. I've voted Liberal and NDP before. I might again, well, probably not NDP. I pay taxes now, after all. I could be persuaded to vote Liberal if they were toss out the pimps who currently control the party and put in someone honest and intelligent. Presuming there are any Liberals like that. There might well be. I've never seen one, but I'm not totally discounting the possibility.

Raising the 'comfort level', as you put it, down South should not be our primary concern. This is not some twisted parental relationship - they need us nearly as badly as we need them. Grovelling is optional, but not in my repetoire. Harper however seems good at it.

Raising the comfort level down south is always a good thing. Raising it as a simple side-effect of what we should be doing anyway is even better. We have no control over our borders. We should have. I would like to see us gain control, and raising the comfort level down south is not a primary reason behind that.

As far as "they need us nearly as much", right, sure, okay. Like my employer needs me nearly as much as I need my job - not. Take a look at what percentage of our trade exports, hell, of our manufactured goods are shipped to the United States. Now take a look at how much of their goods are shipped here. Believe me, they can do without us a helluva lot easier than we can do without them.

As far as 'grovelling" goes, if you regard not going out of his way to spit in Bush's face as grovelling, then i guess that his behaviour so far does qualify. But twisting the meaning of the word that far renders the accusation into the territory of eye-rolling silliness hardly worthy of discussion.

If anything someone needs to look out for the interests of all Canadians,

You mean like the Liberals did? You apporoved of deliberately insulting Bush in order to score cheap political points even at the possible cost of American anger and thus resulting trade problems? Is that what you consider to be independance and "looking out for Canadians"?

whatever our friend to the south is up to. The last thing we need is an American crony. Our interests diverge at many points. I do not wish to become a province of the new Rome.

Our interests diverge at very few points, and converage on far more. What is in the interest of the US is generally, though not always in our interests as well. Almost all our manufactured goods are consumed by American consumers. Pissing them off in order to stroke your ego is not something I'm going to take as a serious policy recommendation.

[Machinations]

You mean like the Liberals did? You apporoved of deliberately insulting Bush in order to score cheap political points even at the possible cost of American anger and thus resulting trade problems? Is that what you consider to be independance and "looking out for Canadians"?

Ohhhh! Silly me. I thought the softwood trade crisis predated the 'deliberate insulting Bush'- as did the NAFTA panel hearings ruling against the Americans, the WTO rulings, ad nauseaum. The Americans have been strongarming us over a deal cut by the last Conservative PM, Brian Mulroney. That is a fact. And the strongarming won't stop because we have a pliant PM in office.

It is revealing that you consider the relationship between Canada and the United States to be so one sided. You fail to consider the complexities of trade - including the fact that our 'dependant' economy still has a currency which competes with the greatest economic power on earth. Perhaps instead of using the United States as a yardstick, you should realize that are many emerging markets we could position ourselves to take advantage of. It is clear our relations with the US will be increasingly one-sided - Harper has gone for the supplicant approach - I would have thought diversification would be a better strategy. But, hey, what do I know?

Besides, I was more interested in how you manage to find Israel's actions defensible.

[Kindred]

A voice of reasoness in the midst of mayhem ......... and I repeat no one can call the actions of Israel reasonable or justified, to deny the barrage on Lebanon and the intent to annhilate the culture and destroy the infrastructure is ridiculous.

They have destroyed the Beruit airport, the bridges, the roads, this is considered a "war crime".

INNOCENT civilians are being "punished" in an insane attack by Israel that cannot be justified because the Hezbollah have no military installations or static physical presence for the Israel rockets to target - to say they are firing on Hezbollah targets is pure bullshit .......

They are bombing whole apartment blocks and then saying " we had reason to believe the Hezbollah lived there .." and no civilians were hurt ..............and I say again, bullshit .........

Argus you havent explained why its okay for Israel to have hundreds of Lebanese prisoners but not okay for Lebanon to have 3 Jews in prison .... nor have you explained your comment that the bombing is in retaliation for the death of these 3 prisoners when all reports are that they are alive and well ..... reports released by Israel in fact to the BBC .....

I imagine Israel will succeed in blowing up these soldiers though ..... sooner or later ........

[Kindred]

Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing that given to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct economic and military assistance since 1976, and is the largest recipient in total since World War Two, to the tune of well over $140 billion (in 2004 dollars). Israel receives about $3 billion in direct assistance each year, roughly one-fifth of the foreign aid budget, and worth about $500 a year for every Israeli. This largesse is especially striking since Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to that of South Korea or Spain.

Other recipients get their money in quarterly installments, but Israel receives its entire appropriation at the beginning of each fiscal year and can thus earn interest on it. Most recipients of aid given for military purposes are required to spend all of it in the US, but Israel is allowed to use roughly 25 per cent of its allocation to subsidise its own defence industry. It is the only recipient that does not have to account for how the aid is spent, which makes it virtually impossible to prevent the money from being used for purposes the US opposes, such as building settlements on the West Bank. Moreover, the US has provided Israel with nearly $3 billion to develop weapons systems, and given it access to such top-drawer weaponry as Blackhawk helicopters and F-16 jets. Finally, the US gives Israel access to intelligence it denies to its Nato allies and has turned a blind eye to Israel’s acquisition of nuclear weapons.

Washington also provides Israel with consistent diplomatic support. Since 1982, the US has vetoed 32 Security Council resolutions critical of Israel, more than the total number of vetoes cast by all the other Security Council members. It blocks the efforts of Arab states to put Israel’s nuclear arsenal on the IAEA’s agenda. The US comes to the rescue in wartime and takes Israel’s side when negotiating peace. The Nixon administration protected it from the threat of Soviet intervention and resupplied it during the October War. Washington was deeply involved in the negotiations that ended that war, as well as in the lengthy ‘step-by-step’ process that followed, just as it played a key role in the negotiations that preceded and followed the 1993 Oslo Accords. In each case there was occasional friction between US and Israeli officials, but the US consistently supported the Israeli position. One American participant at Camp David in 2000 later said: ‘Far too often, we functioned . . . as Israel’s lawyer.’ Finally, the Bush administration’s ambition to transform the Middle East is at least partly aimed at improving Israel’s strategic situation.

This extraordinary generosity might be understandable if Israel were a vital strategic asset or if there were a compelling moral case for US backing. But neither explanation is convincing. One might argue that Israel was an asset during the Cold War. By serving as America’s proxy after 1967, it helped contain Soviet expansion in the region and inflicted humiliating defeats on Soviet clients like Egypt and Syria. It occasionally helped protect other US allies (like King Hussein of Jordan) and its military prowess forced Moscow to spend more on backing its own client states. It also provided useful intelligence about Soviet capabilities.

Backing Israel was not cheap, however, and it complicated America’s relations with the Arab world. For example, the decision to give $2.2 billion in emergency military aid during the October War triggered an Opec oil embargo that inflicted considerable damage on Western economies. For all that, Israel’s armed forces were not in a position to protect US interests in the region. The US could not, for example, rely on Israel when the Iranian Revolution in 1979 raised concerns about the security of oil supplies, and had to create its own Rapid Deployment Force instead.

.............................Terrorism’ is not a single adversary, but a tactic employed by a wide array of political groups. The terrorist organisations that threaten Israel do not threaten the United States, except when it intervenes against them (as in Lebanon in 1982). Moreover, Palestinian terrorism is not random violence directed against Israel or ‘the West’; it is largely a response to Israel’s prolonged campaign to colonise the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

More important, saying that Israel and the US are united by a shared terrorist threat has the causal relationship backwards: the US has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel, not the other way around. Support for Israel is not the only source of anti-American terrorism, but it is an important one, and it makes winning the war on terror more difficult. There is no question that many al-Qaida leaders, including Osama bin Laden, are motivated by Israel’s presence in Jerusalem and the plight of the Palestinians. Unconditional support for Israel makes it easier for extremists to rally popular support and to attract recruits.

As for so-called rogue states in the Middle East, they are not a dire threat to vital US interests, except inasmuch as they are a threat to Israel.

............A final reason to question Israel’s strategic value is that it does not behave like a loyal ally. Israeli officials frequently ignore US requests and renege on promises (including pledges to stop building settlements and to refrain from ‘targeted assassinations’ of Palestinian leaders). Israel has provided sensitive military technology to potential rivals like China, in what the State Department inspector-general called ‘a systematic and growing pattern of unauthorised transfers’. According to the General Accounting Office, Israel also ‘conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any ally’. In addition to the case of Jonathan Pollard, who gave Israel large quantities of classified material in the early 1980s (which it reportedly passed on to the Soviet Union in return for more exit visas for Soviet Jews), a new controversy erupted in 2004 when it was revealed that a key Pentagon official called Larry Franklin had passed classified information to an Israeli diplomat. Israel is hardly the only country that spies on the US, but its willingness to spy on its principal patron casts further doubt on its strategic value.

Israel’s strategic value isn’t the only issue. Its backers also argue that it deserves unqualified support because it is weak and surrounded by enemies; it is a democracy; the Jewish people have suffered from past crimes and therefore deserve special treatment; and Israel’s conduct has been morally superior to that of its adversaries. On close inspection, none of these arguments is persuasive. There is a strong moral case for supporting Israel’s existence, but that is not in jeopardy. Viewed objectively, its past and present conduct offers no moral basis for privileging it over the Palestinians.

Israel is often portrayed as David confronted by Goliath, but the converse is closer to the truth. Contrary to popular belief, the Zionists had larger, better equipped and better led forces during the 1947-49 War of Independence, and the Israel Defence Forces won quick and easy victories against Egypt in 1956 and against Egypt, Jordan and Syria in 1967 – all of this before large-scale US aid began flowing. Today, Israel is the strongest military power in the Middle East. Its conventional forces are far superior to those of its neighbours and it is the only state in the region with nuclear weapons. Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties with it, and Saudi Arabia has offered to do so. Syria has lost its Soviet patron, Iraq has been devastated by three disastrous wars and Iran is hundreds of miles away. The Palestinians barely have an effective police force, let alone an army that could pose a threat to Israel. According to a 2005 assessment by Tel Aviv University’s Jaffee Centre for Strategic Studies, ‘the strategic balance decidedly favours Israel, which has continued to widen the qualitative gap between its own military capability and deterrence powers and those of its neighbours.’ If backing the underdog were a compelling motive, the United States would be supporting Israel’s opponents.

......... Since then, Israeli leaders have repeatedly sought to deny the Palestinians’ national ambitions. When she was prime minister, Golda Meir famously remarked that ‘there is no such thing as a Palestinian.’ Pressure from extremist violence and Palestinian population growth has forced subsequent Israeli leaders to disengage from the Gaza Strip and consider other territorial compromises, but not even Yitzhak Rabin was willing to offer the Palestinians a viable state. Ehud Barak’s purportedly generous offer at Camp David would have given them only a disarmed set of Bantustans under de facto Israeli control. The tragic history of the Jewish people does not obligate the US to help Israel today no matter what it does.

........Israel’s backers also portray it as a country that has sought peace at every turn and shown great restraint even when provoked. The Arabs, by contrast, are said to have acted with great wickedness. Yet on the ground, Israel’s record is not distinguishable from that of its opponents. Ben-Gurion acknowledged that the early Zionists were far from benevolent towards the Palestinian Arabs, who resisted their encroachments – which is hardly surprising, given that the Zionists were trying to create their own state on Arab land. In the same way, the creation of Israel in 1947-48 involved acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, massacres and rapes by Jews, and Israel’s subsequent conduct has often been brutal, belying any claim to moral superiority. Between 1949 and 1956, for example, Israeli security forces killed between 2700 and 5000 Arab infiltrators, the overwhelming majority of them unarmed. The IDF murdered hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war in both the 1956 and 1967 wars, while in 1967, it expelled between 100,000 and 260,000 Palestinians from the newly conquered West Bank, and drove 80,000 Syrians from the Golan Heights...............

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

The report is all here John Mearsheimer is the Wendell Harrison Professor of Political Science at Chicago, Stephen Walt is the Robert and Renee Belfer Professor of International Affairs at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. His most recent book is Taming American Power: The Global Response to US Primacy.

[Argus]

You mean like the Liberals did? You apporoved of deliberately insulting Bush in order to score cheap political points even at the possible cost of American anger and thus resulting trade problems? Is that what you consider to be independance and "looking out for Canadians"?

Ohhhh! Silly me. I thought the softwood trade crisis predated the 'deliberate insulting Bush'- as did the NAFTA panel hearings ruling against the Americans, the WTO rulings, ad nauseaum. The Americans have been strongarming us over a deal cut by the last Conservative PM, Brian Mulroney. That is a fact. And the strongarming won't stop because we have a pliant PM in office.

The softwood deal cost what, $5 billion over five years?

During that time, trade between the US and Canada amounted to something on the order of $3.5 Billion, with us the overwhelming winners with an enormous annual trade surplus.

The softwood dispute was chump change.

It is revealing that you consider the relationship between Canada and the United States to be so one sided. You fail to consider the complexities of trade - including the fact that our 'dependant' economy still has a currency which competes with the greatest economic power on earth.

Which is utterly irrelevent.

Perhaps instead of using the United States as a yardstick, you should realize that are many emerging markets we could position ourselves to take advantage of.

Like who? Europe is largely cut off from us in its own trade union. China and Japan, and to a lesser extent South Korea, are extreme trade protectionists who buy little from us but raw lumber and other agricutural products.

Besides, I was more interested in how you manage to find Israel's actions defensible.

Any other nation on earth would have done the same, including us.

[Argus]

A voice of reasoness in the midst of mayhem ......... and I repeat no one can call the actions of Israel reasonable or justified,

The actions of Israel are reasonable and justified.

There, you see? Your whole premise shot down in flames.

to deny the barrage on Lebanon and the intent to annhilate the culture and destroy the infrastructure is ridiculous.

Sheer hyperbole.

Argus you havent explained why its okay for Israel to have hundreds of Lebanese prisoners but not okay for Lebanon to have 3 Jews in prison ....

Who says they have hundreds of Lebanese prisoner? Early on in this, someone posted a link to a Lebanese expat forum somewhere on one of the threads. Several of the posters there said they didn't think there even were any Lebanese prisoners. One poster named one guy, who had been caught by Israel in an attempted suicide bombing, but that was it.

nor have you explained your comment that the bombing is in retaliation for the death of these 3 prisoners when all reports are that they are alive and well ..... reports released by Israel in fact to the BBC .....

I said it was retaliation for the deaths of other Israeli soldiers killed during the raids, as well as the rockets fired into Isral over the past year. It is now, of course, also retalation for all the rockets fired into Israel since this began, and the deaths they have caused.

[Black Dog]

You mean, Muslim Shiite suburbs, right? Apparently the Christian suburbs are quite peaceful.

So let me get this straight: you're saying Israel is not bombing nopn-Shiite neighbourhoods and this is suppossed to make these non-Shiites rise up against Hizbullah?

The only reason the IDF has trouble is because Hezbollah hides among the citizenry. But it isn't hiding itself from its fellow Lebanese. There are what, almost four million Lebanese. And how many Hezbollah? Five thousand? I think they can handle it. There'll be some messiness involved, of course, but far less than if the IDF went into Beirut and tried rooting them out.

They just need the will to go through that messiness. Which is what the Israelis are giving them.

Ah, so the average Lebanese school teacher, shop owner, doctor, labourer: they're just suppossed to take up arms against the Iranian/Syrian backed militia that has successfully survived civil war and numerous attempts by the most powerful military in the region to wipe them out? This makes the Underpants Gnomes plan look genius by comparison.

BTW I'm still waiting to see any historical exampels where collective punishment worked in the manner described. It didn't cause the French, Dutch or Serbians to turn against their partisans in World War 2, I don't see why it should work in Lebanon.

[Army Guy]

BD:

Ah, so the average Lebanese school teacher, shop owner, doctor, labourer: they're just suppossed to take up arms against the Iranian/Syrian backed militia that has successfully survived civil war and numerous attempts by the most powerful military in the region to wipe them out? This makes the Underpants Gnomes plan look genius by comparison.

Why not, are you saying that these people do not have a vested interest in there own country, a vested interest in thier own future, thier families future. The lebanese have chose to allow these terrorists operate out of there own country because there is a pay off, what that is i'm not sure probably some form of semi quassi peace in the region. And now that has ended and they are paying for thier decision.

As for Israel not being able to wipe the terrorist out, is not due to the lack of miltary resouces, but rather the threat of world repercusions...that is what keeps the Israelis at bay...Those soft hearted westerners that gasp in horror as the media puts up death counts and few pictures of dead civilians...those are the people that have prevented Israel from correcting and solving this problem.

BTW I'm still waiting to see any historical exampels where collective punishment worked in the manner described. It didn't cause the French, Dutch or Serbians to turn against their partisans in World War 2, I don't see why it should work in Lebanon.

What you meant to say was work on the entire population of the above countries. what it did do was prevent larger numbers of the population from uprising, and lets not forget the power of survival of the french, had the vicci french , the Dutch had a Nazi SS div, and actually alot of Serbs were pro Nazi also filling out SS units or the serb partisans that fought again'st the allieds ... So does collective punish work Yes, it does achieve results...

The lebanese situation is not the same they have choose to keep a blind eye to the terrorist activities, refusing to shut them down...Making them as guilty as the terrorists. Now that Israel has decided it has had enough and is taking direct action the world is taken back in shock(come on you have to be an idiot if you did not see this coming) .

The world has seen enough, it is my personal opinion that Israel will gage world opinon and if it favours them there will be a ground action and many more terrorist will get to find out that Allah is all out of virgins. and thier actions have gotton them a trip straight to hell where all cowards go.

[Black Dog]

Why not, are you saying that these people do not have a vested interest in there own country, a vested interest in thier own future, thier families future. The lebanese have chose to allow these terrorists operate out of there own country because there is a pay off, what that is i'm not sure probably some form of semi quassi peace in the region. And now that has ended and they are paying for thier decision.

Sure, but what I'm saying is that they lack the means to do so. Other than proximity, what tactical or strategic advantage does that average Lebanese have over Hizbullah that the IDF does not?

As for Israel not being able to wipe the terrorist out, is not due to the lack of miltary resouces, but rather the threat of world repercusions...that is what keeps the Israelis at bay...Those soft hearted westerners that gasp in horror as the media puts up death counts and few pictures of dead civilians...those are the people that have prevented Israel from correcting and solving this problem.

IOW, if only hese western pansies weren't concerened with things like "human rights" or "war crimes."

What you meant to say was work on the entire population of the above countries. what it did do was prevent larger numbers of the population from uprising, and lets not forget the power of survival of the french, had the vicci french , the Dutch had a Nazi SS div, and actually alot of Serbs were pro Nazi also filling out SS units or the serb partisans that fought again'st the allieds ... So does collective punish work Yes, it does achieve results...

I don't think collective punishment is what caused people to collaborate with their occupation forces. And collective punishment did not denude resistance movements of popular support: quite the opposite. The only results it achieved was giving the partisans a smaller pool from which to draw members from by the killing of potential recurits.

The lebanese situation is not the same they have choose to keep a blind eye to the terrorist activities, refusing to shut them down...Making them as guilty as the terrorists. Now that Israel has decided it has had enough and is taking direct action the world is taken back in shock(come on you have to be an idiot if you did not see this coming) .

Again with the persumption that the average Lebanese has the means to prevent Hizbullah (the proverbial 800 lb gorilla) from operating. I'm not sure where that belief comes from.

Also: what eveidence is there that Hizbullah enoys much in the way of popular support outside its particular narrow constituency? Punishing those unaffiliated with Hiz will not turn them against the group, but against Israel. And if, as Argus sugests, the Israelis are targetting those areas where Hiz has popular support, there's no reason to think it will do anything but strengthen that support (by casting Hizbullah in the role of Shiite Islam's defender against the Zionist aggressors). Here's an analogy: you live next door to a crack house. The gang that runs it is heavily armed, well organized and good at intimidating the neighbourds. One day a rival gang comes by and sprays the crackhouse and several neighbouring residences, including yours, with bullets. You, who's only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time, get shot and paralyzed. Now tell me: who's the first person you'd blame: the gang next door or the person who shot you?

[Machinations]

Ah, so the average Lebanese school teacher, shop owner, doctor, labourer: they're just suppossed to take up arms against the Iranian/Syrian backed militia that has successfully survived civil war and numerous attempts by the most powerful military in the region to wipe them out? This makes the Underpants Gnomes plan look genius by comparison.

Why not, are you saying that these people do not have a vested interest in there own country, a vested interest in thier own future, thier families future. The lebanese have chose to allow these terrorists operate out of there own country because there is a pay off, what that is i'm not sure probably some form of semi quassi peace in the region. And now that has ended and they are paying for thier decision.

As for Israel not being able to wipe the terrorist out, is not due to the lack of miltary resouces, but rather the threat of world repercusions...that is what keeps the Israelis at bay...Those soft hearted westerners that gasp in horror as the media puts up death counts and few pictures of dead civilians...those are the people that have prevented Israel from correcting and solving this problem.

BTW I'm still waiting to see any historical exampels where collective punishment worked in the manner described. It didn't cause the French, Dutch or Serbians to turn against their partisans in World War 2, I don't see why it should work in Lebanon.

What you meant to say was work on the entire population of the above countries. what it did do was prevent larger numbers of the population from uprising, and lets not forget the power of survival of the french, had the vicci french , the Dutch had a Nazi SS div, and actually alot of Serbs were pro Nazi also filling out SS units or the serb partisans that fought again'st the allieds ... So does collective punish work Yes, it does achieve results...

The lebanese situation is not the same they have choose to keep a blind eye to the terrorist activities, refusing to shut them down...Making them as guilty as the terrorists. Now that Israel has decided it has had enough and is taking direct action the world is taken back in shock(come on you have to be an idiot if you did not see this coming) .

The world has seen enough, it is my personal opinion that Israel will gage world opinon and if it favours them there will be a ground action and many more terrorist will get to find out that Allah is all out of virgins. and thier actions have gotton them a trip straight to hell where all cowards go.

See, you have lots of opinion, but very little knowledge. If you had an education, or even an understanding of the history of the conflict, your opinion would'nt be so worthless.

As it stands you were educated by Fox, CBC and CNN. Have you ever even picked up a history book? I thought so.

Just to point out your first fallacy, Israel has the 4th most powerful military in the world, and by far the most powerful military in the region. They also possess nuclear arms. Israel is a regional superpower, and to say that 'numerous attempts by most powerful military to take them out' is straight-up retarded. What powerful military? Syria and Egypt in 1967 were using old Soviet hardware. Israel had the latest and greatest from the god-blessed US of A - and they still do.

You go on to compare WW2 to the current conflict, as though atrocities commited in the heat of a civilzation-destroying war are comparable to a war of revenge persecuted by Israel mostly against civilians. Israel is not under threat of destruction - hell , I saw an Israeli diplomat saying people should not cancel their travel plans!

Reality check: WW2 involved many nations and millions died, FYI.

Everytime another apartment building blows up, thats another Made in the USA sticker. Cha-ching!, as some would say.

[Army Guy]

Machinations:

See, you have lots of opinion, but very little knowledge. If you had an education, or even an understanding of the history of the conflict, your opinion would'nt be so worthless.

As it stands you were educated by Fox, CBC and CNN. Have you ever even picked up a history book? I thought so.

Call me slow or what ever you wish , but to whom are you addressing your comments to, myself or BD, as it's hard to tell with you using both our quotes.

regardless of whom you are addressing what statements are you judging your harsh comments on. i think your over reacting just a tad....want to debate then do it.

[Kindred]

Why not, are you saying that these people do not have a vested interest in there own country, a vested interest in thier own future, thier families future

You forgot to add "and every child" ..... and reality is most of Lebanon does not support the "guerilla force" operating in their country, by the very definition of the word .... they are also being held hostage by Hezbulla (sp?). Take a look at the most recent election results in Lebanon ........

You would have a more objective and informed opinion if you did some research, educated yourself, and stopped parroting the popular US media on world affairs.

I dont understand someone who gets their information from the TV Media - the SAME media that reported the 911 terrorists came straight from Canada, and held Canada responsible in the intitial fallout - when there is a wealth of history and information available to you on the internet - never mind books !

It is this kind of ignorance that creates racism, hate and wars ........ God help a society who's members are too lazy to ask questions and look for their own answers, but just sit on their collective asses and let the media tell them what to think, feel and do -

How many of you have not given one thought to Israel or Lebanon before this started? How many of you know that the US piles billions of Foreign Aid on Israel? How many of you know that the US and in part, Canada are the Arms Dealers who have provided the weapons for this war?

How many of you know how THIS has influenced and WILL influence the US stand, and by association, Canadas because Harper is a Bush Toady? How many of you know the facts behind the comment about this attack being "justified"?

What are the facts, the history that form the allegiance from other countries? From the G8 countries? Who is financially impartial to the outcome of this war on Lebanon and who has huge nvestments in the area?

Terrorists my ass ........ that is the the scape goat of all political machinations around the world isnt it? Every act of aggression in the world has been justified as being a defense against the 911 "terrorists" - hasnt that been a little over done? Its reached the point of the ridiculous regarding how many countries have been blamed by Bush for 911. If Bush said the Easter Bunny did it people would rush out and get a gun and start shooting at every little bunny they saw ......... Muslim bunnies OMGod !

The constant "terrorist alerts" are just blatant brain washing to keep the people of the US off balance and complacent .... and its brain washing Canadians who are tuned into US stations.

[Kindred]

Here comes the anti-terrorist train lets all jump on board - news flash this is NOT the friday night movie, this is freakin' real and while you all sit back and enjoy this newest entertainment children are suffering, being wounded and killed and terrorized -- how the hell did society become so desensitized and so immune to the suffering of humanity? How did society become so damn ignorant and selfish?

For those of you who dont listen to anything except CNN and Fox 2 Canadian children have been killed now. Not that they are more important than children from Lebanon or Israel but some of you seem to think they are, if they are white and blonde and come from the West than it means something to you .........

Are these children also terrorists who support Hazbullah and do they " deserve " to die?

[Army Guy]

BD:

Sure, but what I'm saying is that they lack the means to do so. Other than proximity, what tactical or strategic advantage does that average Lebanese have over Hizbullah that the IDF does not?

I'm sure if the Lebanese wanted the terrorist out and asked for help in doing that there would be nations lined up for miles to either provide the equipment , or even the manpower to do so.

All they had to do is the same tactics these terrorist use, or perhaps it's as easy as assisting the Israelis armed forces in locating and pionting out the terrorists....

IOW, if only hese western pansies weren't concerened with things like "human rights" or "war crimes."

So we in the west are expected to play by the rules while the terrorist do not, nor do we do anything to them for not playing by the rules, in fact we cater to them, provide them with welfare, pay thier medical bills...

the Israelis had it right after the olympic games in germany.... hunt them down and kill them using the same methods , if every nation did this there would not be terrorists atleast not alive.

Or perhaps those pansy westerns would rather enjoy be terrorised on a daily basis. cowards and terrorist do not deserve human rights.

don't think collective punishment is what caused people to collaborate with their occupation forces. And collective punishment did not denude resistance movements of popular support: quite the opposite. The only results it achieved was giving the partisans a smaller pool from which to draw members from by the killing of potential recurits.

You and i both know that is a double edge sword, and niether one of us can prove that one way or another.

All i can comment is that if i saw my neibours shot or hanged in the town square i would be reluclent to have my family involved in partisen activties.

Again with the persumption that the average Lebanese has the means to prevent Hizbullah (the proverbial 800 lb gorilla) from operating. I'm not sure where that belief comes from.

They had a democratically elected goverment did they not, even if it was appionted by Syria they is still the power of the people something they showed when syria was accussed of killing thier president.

but they did not raise thier voice again'st the terrorists , no rallys, no nothing....silence does mean they approve or refuse to eject a group that has caused them so much grief.

Also: what eveidence is there that Hizbullah enoys much in the way of popular support outside its particular narrow constituency? Punishing those unaffiliated with Hiz will not turn them against the group, but against Israel. And if, as Argus sugests, the Israelis are targetting those areas where Hiz has popular support, there's no reason to think it will do anything but strengthen that support (by casting Hizbullah in the role of Shiite Islam's defender against the Zionist aggressors)

It's just a theory, one that has some of media time and perhaps argus is right ,but that is not what i was alluding to.. In my opinion i think i is alot simpler, they are hitting all the terrorists escape routes, possiable military targets, such as those new rockets they recieved from Iran. they are preparing to pave the way for a ground invasion. and they want to ensure that kill or capture as many terrorist as possable.

As for your comparison, the first person i'd blame would be myself for not taking any action. be it get rid of the bad guys or by working with law enforcement to get the job done. By not doing anything is still an action. and everyone must be held accountable for there actions.

[Black Dog]

I'm sure if the Lebanese wanted the terrorist out and asked for help in doing that there would be nations lined up for miles to either provide the equipment , or even the manpower to do so.

All they had to do is the same tactics these terrorist use, or perhaps it's as easy as assisting the Israelis armed forces in locating and pionting out the terrorists....

So basically, you want another civil war. I doubt many Lebanese would be all that gung ho. Look, Hizbullah may be the ultimate source of thier misery, but its also a very powerful and inluential faction and not just militarily. Destroying Hizbullah would mean destroying the network of social supports the political wing of the group has built up which many depend on. In fact, Israel's actions may force people to depend on Hizbullah even more.

Ultimately, you can't expect the Lebanese people to be responsible for the actions of a non-state actor.

So we in the west are expected to play by the rules while the terrorist do not, nor do we do anything to them for not playing by the rules, in fact we cater to them, provide them with welfare, pay thier medical bills...

the Israelis had it right after the olympic games in germany.... hunt them down and kill them using the same methods , if every nation did this there would not be terrorists atleast not alive.

Uh...the rules of war exist to provide some kind of moral framework for an otherwise immoral endeavor. If we behave in defiance of these moral precepts, even to combat others who ignor ethos erules, what claim to moral superiority do we have? Labels like terrorist would soon cease to have any meaning.

Or perhaps those pansy westerns would rather enjoy be terrorised on a daily basis. cowards and terrorist do not deserve human rights.

Your presenting a false dichotomy here. It's not a choice between barbarism and surrender.

You and i both know that is a double edge sword, and niether one of us can prove that one way or another.

All i can comment is that if i saw my neibours shot or hanged in the town square i would be reluclent to have my family involved in partisen activties.

But you certainly wouldn't have much sympathy for those who did it. Anyway, collective punishment is a war crime for good reason. It's barbaric.

They had a democratically elected goverment did they not, even if it was appionted by Syria they is still the power of the people something they showed when syria was accussed of killing thier president.

but they did not raise thier voice again'st the terrorists , no rallys, no nothing....silence does mean they approve or refuse to eject a group that has caused them so much grief.

Having a democratic government or high levels of opposition to Hizbullah (and, given that 60 per cent of Lebanon's population are non-Shiite, that's a fair assumption) doesn't magically give anyone the power to do anything about it.

It's just a theory, one that has some of media time and perhaps argus is right ,but that is not what i was alluding to.. In my opinion i think i is alot simpler, they are hitting all the terrorists escape routes, possiable military targets, such as those new rockets they recieved from Iran. they are preparing to pave the way for a ground invasion. and they want to ensure that kill or capture as many terrorist as possable.

They're doing a pretty piss poor job of it. They've managed to kill: what, 200 civilians? For a handful of Hizbullah fighters. Look, if they wanted to push into southern lebanon to find and destroy the rocket sites, fine. But bombing Beirut is not going to stop Hizbullah.

[Army Guy]

Kindred:

You forgot to add "and every child" ..... and reality is most of Lebanon does not support the "guerilla force" operating in their country, by the very definition of the word .... they are also being held hostage by Hezbulla (sp?). Take a look at the most recent election results in Lebanon ........

Actually i did say families future did i not. Then what is it that they do support, it's not Israel , not syria , whom ....as for held hostage how so, 50,000 of them have dual cdn citizenships, they had to have left lebanon to get that and then returned...sound like a hostage to me, The lebanonese show the had some metal when syria was accussed in killing the pres...so why not show them they have the power to throw out a few terrorist that bring them nothing but grief...why because it's not something they care about the security of Israel "give me a break" By doing nothing they have force this action on themselfs.

You would have a more objective and informed opinion if you did some research, educated yourself, and stopped parroting the popular US media on world affairs.

Your right i need to educate myself, i guess a tour at Golan Hieghts, and the Sinia as a Canadian peace keeper has taught me nothing, "so your the one whom has done the research educate me". because you make it sound like your one of those subject matter experts who has spent time on the ground.

dont understand someone who gets their information from the TV Media - the SAME media that reported the 911 terrorists came straight from Canada, and held Canada responsible in the intitial fallout - when there is a wealth of history and information available to you on the internet - never mind books

Then fill us in professor...

How many of you have not given one thought to Israel or Lebanon before this started? How many of you know that the US piles billions of Foreign Aid on Israel? How many of you know that the US and in part, Canada are the Arms Dealers who have provided the weapons for this war?

Actually US gives aid to quit a number of muslim and arab countries what is your piont ?

I guess mother russia gets to sit this on out, again what is your piont whom provides the wpns it is not the arms dealers that start wars or pulls the trigger.

How many of you know how THIS has influenced and WILL influence the US stand, and by association, Canadas because Harper is a Bush Toady? How many of you know the facts behind the comment about this attack being "justified"?

Things are starting to make sense "paul, is that you, paul martin, still can't get over the fact the liberals lost the election. Lets all move to our roofs are scream "harper is a toady" because he agrees with bush that the Israel gov't has the right to protect itself. Atleast he has a postion...unlike the liberals who would need a seris of polls to see what the Canadians in BC had to say.

Terrorists my ass ........ that is the the scape goat of all political machinations around the world isnt it? Every act of aggression in the world has been justified as being a defense against the 911 "terrorists" - hasnt that been a little over done?

So what are we calling the Hez today,aggresive door to door sales persons, "they are terrorists" always have been and always will be. or do you know what the difination of terrorist is.

Here comes the anti-terrorist train lets all jump on board - news flash this is NOT the friday night movie, this is freakin' real and while you all sit back and enjoy this newest entertainment children are suffering, being wounded and killed and terrorized -- how the hell did society become so desensitized and so immune to the suffering of humanity? How did society become so damn ignorant and selfish?

You must have just came out of a comma did you, the world been this way since we learned to walk up right and use clubs to kill things with. innocents have always payed for mans obsession with killing each other. is it right NO, is it a fact of life YES, unless you come up with a new drug or solution to war you should grow up and face life hard facts..

Are these children also terrorists who support Hazbullah and do they " deserve " to die?

Give me a break...why not ask that to thier parents...by them not doing anything they are forcing thier children into the same life....under the thumb of the hez...maybe they could ask them why did they stay in a country that is always in some sort of state of war. since what 1973 is it...

[Machinations]

Give me a break...why not ask that to thier parents...by them not doing anything they are forcing thier children into the same life....under the thumb of the hez...maybe they could ask them why did they stay in a country that is always in some sort of state of war. since what 1973 is it...

Is the fact that Lebanon is their home not good enough? Perhaps they are unable to leave? Have you ever been an international refugee?

How long did you think about this? 5 minutes? 15? The civil war started in 1975 after Lebanon absorbed huge numbers of Palestinian refugees expelled from Israel. Israel invaded in 1982 and ignited a full-scale conflict. The war ended in 1990. Now stop talking and start reading you have some catching up to do I'd say.

[Argus]

They just need the will to go through that messiness. Which is what the Israelis are giving them.

Ah, so the average Lebanese school teacher, shop owner, doctor, labourer: they're just suppossed to take up arms against the Iranian/Syrian backed militia that has successfully survived civil war and numerous attempts by the most powerful military in the region to wipe them out?

There's about 5,000 Hezbollah. Well, there used to be. I imagine there's quite a few less now. Lebanon has an army. The problem is a large precentage of it are Shiites because - like in the US - it's mostly the poor who join the army, and the poor over there are shiites. Lebanon needs to get more non-Shiites into the military, build it up and take care of business. Hezbollah is not that good. Canada could wipe them out easy if they stood out in the open. The only reason Israel has such a problem is because they're scattered in amongst the population. But the Lebanese know who the Hezbollah supporters are.

BTW I'm still waiting to see any historical exampels where collective punishment worked in the manner described. It didn't cause the French, Dutch or Serbians to turn against their partisans in World War 2, I don't see why it should work in Lebanon.

Actually, a lot of them did turn on their partisans. More importantly, those were issues of conquest. The Israelis don't want to conquer and occupy Lebanon. They just want to be left alone. Further, in this instance it is one ethnic group which is bringing down all this on the country, even though, supposedly, all the other ethnic groups oppose this tactic. How long are the other groups, which want no part of attacks on or from Israel, going to allow a group which comprises 11% of the population to cause such turmoil in their country?

[Argus]

\

See, you have lots of opinion, but very little knowledge. If you had an education, or even an understanding of the history of the conflict, your opinion would'nt be so worthless.

Just curious here, Mach old buddy, but if you have all this great education and knowledge, how come you can't manage to put over an opinion here which isn't almost entirely devoted to emotional twaddle and sneering put-downs?

Just to point out your first fallacy, Israel has the 4th most powerful military in the world,

According to whom? You'll pardon me for questioning you, General, but you haven't thus far given us reason to believe you have a great deal of familiarity or expertise with military matters - or anything, actually.

[Argus]

Why not, are you saying that these people do not have a vested interest in there own country, a vested interest in thier own future, thier families future. The lebanese have chose to allow these terrorists operate out of there own country because there is a pay off, what that is i'm not sure probably some form of semi quassi peace in the region. And now that has ended and they are paying for thier decision.

Sure, but what I'm saying is that they lack the means to do so. Other than proximity, what tactical or strategic advantage does that average Lebanese have over Hizbullah that the IDF does not?

They know who they are.

[Argus]

Give me a break...why not ask that to thier parents...by them not doing anything they are forcing thier children into the same life....under the thumb of the hez...maybe they could ask them why did they stay in a country that is always in some sort of state of war. since what 1973 is it...

Is the fact that Lebanon is their home not good enough? Perhaps they are unable to leave? Have you ever been an international refugee?

Apparently tens of thousands have Canadian, British, American, Australian and other passports, and choose to live there permanently anyway.

[theloniusfleabag]

I found another interesting read...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...lah-rockets.htm

In 1995 and 1996, during a period of time when Israel was enduring Katyusha rocket attacks from the Hezbollah across its northern borders, the US offered to Israel -- and they accepted -- the Tactical High-Energy Laser system, which they have been working on. It is a system that's designed specifically to deal with Katyusha rocket attacks from across the border. It is a system that Israel and the United States have worked on, and that is one system that they should be able to use if they experience Katyusha rocket attacks.

I wonder why they haven't used it thus far?

Hizballah seriously damaged a Saar 5-class missile ship named the "Spear" that was helping to enforce Israel's blockade of Lebanon on 14 July 2006. One Israeli sailor was killed and three were initially missing after the attack. Israel initially believed that an aerial drone armed with explosives hit the warship, but it became clear that Hizballah had used an Iranian-made C-802 cruise missile to strike the vessel. Another Hizballah radar-guided anti-ship missile hit and sank a nearby Cambodian merchant ship around the time the Spear was struck. Twelve Egyptian sailors were pulled from the water by passing ships.

I wonder why the Cambodian ship being sunk didn't make the headlines? Or did I miss it?

Oddly, the only google reference I found (that wasn't a pay site) was...

http://www.bahraintribune.com/ArticleDetai...51&CategoryId=2

The other one was from the...

http://www.einnews.com/cambodia/newsfeed-cambodia-terrorism

Attacked Navy Boat Had Only 20 Seconds To Act 21 Jul 2006 00:15 GMT

... Act (IsraelNN.com) An investigation into the Hizbullah terrorist attack on an Israeli Navy boat last ... in the boat. Another missile destroyed a Cambodian boat with a crew of Egyptians. ...

[geoffrey]

BD:

Ah, so the average Lebanese school teacher, shop owner, doctor, labourer: they're just suppossed to take up arms against the Iranian/Syrian backed militia that has successfully survived civil war and numerous attempts by the most powerful military in the region to wipe them out? This makes the Underpants Gnomes plan look genius by comparison.

Why not, are you saying that these people do not have a vested interest in there own country, a vested interest in thier own future, thier families future. The lebanese have chose to allow these terrorists operate out of there own country because there is a pay off, what that is i'm not sure probably some form of semi quassi peace in the region. And now that has ended and they are paying for thier decision.

Did you go fight the FLQ with guns in the streets until they were rooted out? Why not, it seems like you think its your personal responsibility to go fight terrorism in your country... are you on a hunt for the latest sleeper cell too??

Didn't think so.

Be reasonable here people, Lebanese people voted for peace and democracy, you can't expect them to take up arms. No one expects all Canadians to kill Islamic terrorists do we? Every Canadian should personally shoulder the responsibility of any al-Qaeda attack that involved this country following your logic.

No, there is only so much the average person can do. I think it's great that Lebanese people voted against Hezbollah. I disagree that they need to personally kill all of them.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Palestinians must quietly endure tank shelling, air strikes and starvation, “Israel is within its right to respond to terrorism and violence.”

link

[Machinations]

Just curious here, Mach old buddy, but if you have all this great education and knowledge, how come you can't manage to put over an opinion here which isn't almost entirely devoted to emotional twaddle and sneering put-downs?

To be honest, Argus, your opinions deserve the put downs, since you would be ridiculed out of any university setting. The anti-intellectual stance of your 'positions' - which are unsupported by facts - reflect the dogmatic position of an ideologue.

You deserve every ounce of my sneering, you shoddy excuse for a human being.