Options for Israel

[Black Dog]

Rue:

You're really not telling me anything I don't already know. Not only that, you continue to misrepresent my positions (not to mention the annoying tendancy to talk over me instead of to me).

To wit:

It is evident when reading anything Blackdog has to say on the Middle-East, he starts witht he assumption that Palestinians are victims and Israel is the victimizer.

An oversimplification, but fundamentally true in the limited context of the occupation and relations between Israel and the Palestinians. Are you denying that Israel occupies the superior position within that dynamic?

He also starts with the assumption that Israel has no legal claim to a country for Jews and therefore anything flowing from its attempts to defend its existence is morally wrong.

Wrong again. First, I balk at the notion of any society that accords certain religious-ethnic groups privileged status and that extends to all religions. Second: I have never denied Israel's right to self-defence, but, again, object to its conduct.

summarize, when you are being shot at you shoot back. If the person shooting at you hides behind someone, yes that person can die....and no youd on't have the luxury of being able to push the shield out of the way before you shoot. Its shoot back or die.

.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say the person being shot at is demanding is the person being held hostage turn around and disarm their captor or risk getting shot in retaliation.

Right now the Blackdogs of the world don't want to remain neutral and help remove the person caught in between. They think the terrorist hiding behind the shield is a victim. If the Blackdogs of the world truly understood the equation they would not see good and bad and would focus their attention on defusing the conflict not condoning and encouraging one side to continue using shields.

I've asked you number of times to indicate where I voiced support for Hizbullah and its methods. You haven't given any. So keep beatin' that strawman! Either step up and support your slurs or shut the fuck up.

AG:

Perhaps you can name one that has not been tried, and has shown results. Results for both sides. Not that the military one has produced any results either, but it seems this is the only one the palestinains understand.

If I had to pick, I would have coupled a limited military response in the south coupled with aggressive diplomacy directed at the government of Lebanon to give them an incentive to act. More carrot, slightly less stick.

Do you not think that an independant,and stable democratic state, first responsabilty is to ensure that it stayed that way.( i mean this is what they want is peace right) ...but knowing that Isreal has warned them countless times to control them or face Israel direct military action, in fact sign treaties with them to control the PLO.

You'e forgetting the other half of my equation. Not only is the will to take on Hizbullah lacking, so is the ability. One is useless wihout the other, so even if the lebanese government decided to do something, it would have not had the ability to do so. It's also worth noting that whatever small capability the Lebanese government had has now been significantly diminished.

It's funny that most of northen Lebanon is christian, where most of thier Shiite army is based. they have the ability to control the PLO they just don't want to as they see the christian lebanese as a bigger threat. ( nice stable state)

what are they going to do now if Israel invades, move south and fight along side of the PLO, that much they have already said. So they have chosen there bed. now let them be buried in it.

Again: if the only two armed groups in Lebanon are Hizbullah and the Lebanese army, with the latter being majority Shiite and potentially sympathetic to the former, what are the rest supposed to do?

[Army Guy]

BD:

If I had to pick, I would have coupled a limited military response in the south coupled with aggressive diplomacy directed at the government of Lebanon to give them an incentive to act. More carrot, slightly less stick.

How many times do you do this, when do you step it up when it shows no results, how many times have we read in the papers that Israel has bombed targets in lebanon.

And what exactly do you mean as carrot, what do you offer them, a slice of Israel, they'll have to get in line...

Do you truely believe Israel has not done this already.

You'e forgetting the other half of my equation. Not only is the will to take on Hizbullah lacking, so is the ability. One is useless wihout the other, so even if the lebanese government decided to do something, it would have not had the ability to do so. It's also worth noting that whatever small capability the Lebanese government had has now been significantly diminished.

You keep saying this, perhaps the will is not there, I'm sure they will find the will to defend themselfs again'st Israel tho.

Lebanon has a standing army of just over 75,000, somewhat larger than ours...then again everyone's army is larger....But more than capable of taking out a few thousand terrorist.

My Webpage

Again: if the only two armed groups in Lebanon are Hizbullah and the Lebanese army, with the latter being majority Shiite and potentially sympathetic to the former, what are the rest supposed to do

If they are sympathetic for the PLO then they have clearly stated thier postion as they have done on TV already. They have decided that the PLO is worth defending. making thier country a target for Israelis gunners. So where does this leave Israel "whom needs to defend it's citizens from further attacks" , Lebanon has drawn the line in the sand, and said we will fight on the PLO side. and the PLO must be eliminated to stop the attacks on Israel.

Does not leave much room for carrot does it. SO what does Israel do. and better yet, how do you think an lebanon invasion will effect the gaza strip. perhaps Israel will move on both.

[Black Dog]

How many times do you do this, when do you step it up when it shows no results, how many times have we read in the papers that Israel has bombed targets in lebanon.

And what exactly do you mean as carrot, what do you offer them, a slice of Israel, they'll have to get in line...

Do you truely believe Israel has not done this already.

I mean economic incentives, of what sort, I don't know. But "act or we'll bomb you" is not the best way to ensure a lasting solution, nor will bombing alone have the desired effect.

You keep saying this, perhaps the will is not there, I'm sure they will find the will to defend themselfs again'st Israel tho.

Lebanon has a standing army of just over 75,000, somewhat larger than ours...then again everyone's army is larger....But more than capable of taking out a few thousand terrorist.

You're forgetting the issue of a large part of the military being made up of Shiites sympathetic to Hizbullah. And, if the reports now coming out of Southern Lebanon are any indication, Hizbullah is not the pushovers everyone is making them out to be (it took the IDF five days fighting to capture a single village).

If they are sympathetic for the PLO then they have clearly stated thier postion as they have done on TV already. They have decided that the PLO is worth defending.

Why do you keep talking about the PLO? Do you mean Hamas? The P.A? Hizbullah?

[Argus]

It's funny that most of northen Lebanon is christian, where most of thier Shiite army is based. they have the ability to control the PLO they just don't want to as they see the christian lebanese as a bigger threat. ( nice stable state)

what are they going to do now if Israel invades, move south and fight along side of the PLO, that much they have already said. So they have chosen there bed. now let them be buried in it.

Again: if the only two armed groups in Lebanon are Hizbullah and the Lebanese army, with the latter being majority Shiite and potentially sympathetic to the former, what are the rest supposed to do?

Stop supporting Hezbollah or suffer the consequences. You can say what you want about the Lebanese government, but there's no evidence they are even hostile towards Hezbollah, and since a large number of Lebanese support Hezbolah - enough that they fear civil war if the government tries to take them on, enough that they fear their 70,000 man army would fall apart if they sicked it on Hezbollah, well then, I think it fair to say Hezbollah has massive support among the Lebanese people, especially the ones suffering the most, the Shiites.

Let the Shiites suffer for it.

[Argus]

Don't worry, Argus's argument falls apart when he applies it towards himself. I still haven't seen a reply (maybe I just missed it) to my question whether Argus is personally responsible for not single handledly taking on the FLQ before James Cross was kidnapped.

So Argus, would Britian be justified in bombing your apartment building or neighbourhood if they thought FLQ was there during that conflict? If you died, you'd say they were completely justified and you were responsible and should be a fair target for punishment to Canada?

I'm sorry, I guess I just dismissed it as inane and stupid, and didn't bother to ridicule it as I perhaps should have. Maybe that gave you the idea iit was somehow a righteous question that I was desperately avoiding instead of having utterly ignored it as it deserved.

Now, leave aside that I was like eight years old or so, the fact remains that our government went full bore against the FLQ. The FLQ were not allowed to parade up and down the main streets of Quebec wearing their shiny uniforms and showing off rocket launchers and machine guns while getting applause for killing the foreign devils. They were hunted down and crushed. This is slightly different, I think you might agree, to what efforts were made by the Lebanese against Hezbollah as they merrily fired off scores and hundreds of rockets into Israel on a daily basis even before its attack on that border post.

As for "personal" efforts. What I expect of the Lebanese individually is to pressure their government to disarm Hezbollah. That never happened. The Lebanese government never made any effort to do so, and there remains massive support for Hezbollah among the Shite communite, the ones who are currently dying because of that support. No one was willing to provoke a civil war with the Shite community by forceably disarming the terrorists, and because the shites stood shoulder to should with the terrorists they so admired they are suffering the consequences for it now. Christian areas are not being bombed. Sunni areas are not being bombed. Who lives in south Beirut? Hezbollah and their supporters. Screw em.

[jdobbin]

ABC News is reporting that Israel is having a hell of a time advancing into Lebanon and the fighting is fierce. Israeil commanders are reporting to Israeli news outlets that there is poor intelligence hampering their advances.

Having said all that though, the U.S. has lost more soldiers (24) in Iraq in the last 13 days than Israeli soldiers and Iraq has lost more civilians (500+) that Labanonese civilians killed.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/

[AndrewL]

As for "personal" efforts. What I expect of the Lebanese individually is to pressure their government to disarm Hezbollah. That never happened. The Lebanese government never made any effort to do so, and there remains massive support for Hezbollah among the Shite communite, the ones who are currently dying because of that support. No one was willing to provoke a civil war with the Shite community by forceably disarming the terrorists, and because the shites stood shoulder to should with the terrorists they so admired they are suffering the consequences for it now. Christian areas are not being bombed. Sunni areas are not being bombed. Who lives in south Beirut? Hezbollah and their supporters. Screw em.

Yes it is true that Hezbollah has been tring to goad Israel into a conflict for many months now, and they finally succeeded. But to jump from their to your gleeful 'screw 'em' at the death of innocent children just shows your ignorance of the situation. Hezbollah has both a military and a social wing. This means that Hezbollah has been providing medical, dental, and other services we take for granted to the lebanese and they have come to rely on it. If you are a parent and you care about the health of your child you are going to take advantage of these services, what parent would not? So when you talk about the Israelis dishing out collective punishment to these people all israel is doing is punishing them for the awful crime of taking advantage of much needed social services. Perhaps it is unfortuante that these services are offered by Hezbollah but what does a parent do?

Yes they are suffering the consequences as Israel murders children and parents of people who are guilty of nothing more awful than any of us who support the arms industry just by watching NBC or buying a lightbulb made by GE. And Israel will also suffer the consequences of this as hezbollah will now refuse any cease fire that does not see Israel give up the golan heights, something that Israel will not do. And now we are left with a broken lebanon that is not good for anybody, another generation of traumatized civilians who will be radicalized against Israel, and another generation of Israeli children who will have been taught to hate the arabs.

This is really all that Israel or Hezbollah will accomplish in the near future, it is just sad that Israel finally caved into exactly what Hezbollah and Iran want. Its the same old story. And it will solve nothing.

Andrew

[Argus]

ABC News is reporting that Israel is having a hell of a time advancing into Lebanon and the fighting is fierce. Israeil commanders are reporting to Israeli news outlets that there is poor intelligence hampering their advances.

Having said all that though, the U.S. has lost more soldiers (24) in Iraq in the last 13 days than Israeli soldiers and Iraq has lost more civilians (500+) that Labanonese civilians killed.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/

Last year it was estimated that 10,000 people were dying per month in Darfur... not that anyone seems to care about that.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Slice it up any way you want it, but the bottom line is that only a fool would sit back and ignore kidnappings of their citizens and rocket attacks into their country. The nation that hides them will suffer.

Want to end the situation and stop the senseless death and suffering then hand over the soldiers and disarm Hezbollah, simple. Want a political solution, then wait and watch your citizens die because you are to cowardly to make a freaking decision that would save their lives.

All of the sympathizers of Lebanon can go there and protest their brains and guts out. Go ahead and show your support for them in Lebanon, make a political point and show some guts for the cowards that hide terrorists inside innocent residential areas.

This needs to be said, brutal as it may seem but this is not our fight. Don't bring the insanity to this country as well and try to get our political leadership involved in a war without an end, because that is what the middle east is. No human will ever solve the problems because to do so will have one side or the other removed from the area, genocide. Only a fool would want that. Only a fool would want to involve themselves in a domestic dispute. Which is what this is on a very large scale. There is no global police and even if there were, they couldn't prevent a single terrorist attack on a single bus stop let alone an entire nation.

The only solution is the goodwill of citizens and trust in humanity. Until one entire side is willing to unilaterally refuse to participate it will not stop. It won't stop.

[Argus]

Okay, so it's a little mean. It has a certain dry humour to it.

Israeli Defense Forces Begin Urban Renewal Program in Southern Lebanon

In and effort to improve real estate values across southern Lebanon, the

IDF began their much anticipated urban renewal program to considerable

fanfare. Beginning in two of the largest villages in the region, the IDF

began widening streets and removing poorly conceived architechture. The

purpose, as outlined by IDF media officer Capt. Aaron Shamur, is to

create "an urban space where through traffic can pass easily and quickly (

all the while) maintaining the livebility of the villages. A similiar

program has seen considerable success in the Belgravia area of Edmonton,

according to Capt. Shamur.

In additional, the IDF is remodelling a number of buildings in the

villages to conform to a number of the standards that no exist in

architechture, among them the practise of arranging living space to

Asian Feng Shui. "In essense, it is essential that we restore a standard

of urban design that encourages renewal and fulfillment in these

villages," said Capt. Shamur.

Upon their return to their homes, the Lebanese will discover an entirely

new standard of living care of the IDF.

[Army Guy]

BD:

I mean economic incentives, of what sort, I don't know. But "act or we'll bomb you" is not the best way to ensure a lasting solution, nor will bombing alone have the desired effect.

I disagree, paying a bribe for peace is blackmail. I mean that is what it is ,is it not "for peace we will give you x amount in economic aid". To a people you have vowed to push all the jews into the sea...

I will agree with you that Israel military actions todate have not produce many results...but i personally believe it's because they have not gone far enough, due to western perception and restraints.

You're forgetting the issue of a large part of the military being made up of Shiites sympathetic to Hizbullah.

Your right, they are sympathetic to the Hizbulluh, this is very evident when thier goverment has refused to take action against them, has publically said they will assist the terrorist if lebanon is invaded. In other words they have made thier choice already. That being said they did have the choice to disarm them to aviod a full invasion, and have peace with Isreal. below is what Israel had asked for and the basis for UN resolution 425: you tell me if they were asking for to much.

My Webpage

Israel has clarified to the Lebanese that it makes no claims to Lebanese land or resources, and that its primary concern is for security on its northern border. Israel has suggested a settlement based on the following principles:

The Lebanese Army will be deployed north of the security zone and, for a period of six months, will prevent any terror activities against the security zone and Israel. Three months following that initial period, Israel will be prepared to sign a peace agreement with Lebanon.

Prior to any change in its redeployment on the Lebanese front, Israel must be convinced that the military organs of all terrorist groups currently operating out of Lebanon will be irreversibly disbanded.

The government of Israel must receive practical and valid guarantees that no harm will be inflicted upon Lebanese citizens and Southern Lebanese Army personnel currently residing in the security zone and that they will be absorbed in the governmental and societal fabric of Lebanon.

And, if the reports now coming out of Southern Lebanon are any indication, Hizbullah is not the pushovers everyone is making them out to be (it took the IDF five days fighting to capture a single village

Well the Hizbulluh has alot of time to prepare for such an invasion, "The IDF discovered that Hizbullah has established a Viet-Cong-style network of tunnels and trenches close to the Israeli border, providing shelter for its operatives and their weapons" something you don't do unless your actually expecting a full invasion, alluding that a full invasion was something they were working towards gording Israel into.

And then there is this statement made by Israelis defense pers:

"We should consider that what we are facing in Lebanon is not a militia but rather a special forces brigade of the Iranian Army," a senior defence source said. "They are extremely well trained and equipped and charged with high motivation to continue fighting." Israel has accused Iran of attempting to resupply Hizbullah through Syria.

My Webpage

I don't know if this link will work but if you want i can provide the entire art, it's out of Janes defense weekly.

And another piont to note is that the Israelis army has yet to cross the border in force, and have not really engaged these troops with all their mech forces but rather foot patrols supported with a few tanks.

Why do you keep talking about the PLO? Do you mean Hamas? The P.A? Hizbullah?

They are all the same, all palestinians all working towards the same goal.

[Army Guy]

Sorry double post.

[Black Dog]

I disagree, paying a bribe for peace is blackmail. I mean that is what it is ,is it not "for peace we will give you x amount in economic aid". To a people you have vowed to push all the jews into the sea...

What, and "take action against Hizbullah or we'll bomb you" is not blackmail? In any case, in internatonal relations, its called diplomacy. Usinguse economic incentives to sweeten the pot when dealing with other nations is comonplace.

As for the "pushing the Jews into the sea" meme, I don't recall the Lebanese people or elected government ever making any such vow. Unless you're operating from the base assumption that Arabs in the region are a homogenous mass and thus, say, Hamas's beliefs apply to all. But to do so would be to ignore the fundamental differences within Lebanese society, not to mention the many differences across Arab society as a whole.

I will agree with you that Israel military actions todate have not produce many results...but i personally believe it's because they have not gone far enough, due to western perception and restraints.

Oh? And what do you have in mind? Carpet bombing? Nukes?

Your right, they are sympathetic to the Hizbulluh, this is very evident when thier goverment has refused to take action against them, has publically said they will assist the terrorist if lebanon is invaded. In other words they have made thier choice already. That being said they did have the choice to disarm them to aviod a full invasion, and have peace with Isreal. below is what Israel had asked for and the basis for UN resolution 425: you tell me if they were asking for to much.

If Lebanon is invaded, the Lebanese government has the right to act in self defence. Or does that right apply only to Israel? As for the rest: Syria only withdrew its contol over Lebanon a year or so ago. How well established do you think the new government is? Why do people expect miracles from a government that has barely had time to establish itself in its own area, let alone in areas where Hizbullah has been doing the government's work for decades?

(By the way, why the sudden affection by the pro-Israel side towards UN reslutions such as 425 or 1559? Why are these legitimate while others critical of Israel are dismissed?)

Well the Hizbulluh has alot of time to prepare for such an invasion, "The IDF discovered that Hizbullah has established a Viet-Cong-style network of tunnels and trenches close to the Israeli border, providing shelter for its operatives and their weapons" something you don't do unless your actually expecting a full invasion, alluding that a full invasion was something they were working towards gording Israel into.

Israeli incursions into Lebanese territory are a semi regular occurrace, so its no surprise Hizbullah would be prepared.

They are all the same, all palestinians all working towards the same goal.

See, if you don't even know the difference between the secular PLO/Fatah, the Sunni Palestinian Hamas and the Lebanese Shiite Hizbullah, how do you expect to be able to comment on the situation?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and it seems the Israelis have let slip that this operation is about basic retaliation.

High-ranking officer: Halutz ordered retaliation policy

A high-ranking IAF officer caused a storm on Monday in an off-record briefing during which he told reporters that IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz had ordered the military to destroy 10 buildings in Beirut in retaliation to every Katyusha rocket strike on Haifa.

The officer said that the equation was created by Halutz and that every rocket strike on Haifa would be answered by IAF missile strikes on 10 12-story buildings in the Beirut neighborhood of Dahiya, a Hizbullah stronghold. Since the beginning of Operation Change of Direction, launched on July 12 following the abduction of two soldiers during a Hizbullah cross-border attack, over 80 buildings in the neighborhood have been destroyed.

So much for the moral division between the IDF and Hizbullah.

[Shady]

Hezbollah Says Israeli Response a Surprise

"The truth is _ let me say this clearly _ we didn't even expect (this) response.... that (Israel) would exploit this operation for this big war against us," said Komati

Link

Oops. I guessed they guessed wrong, huh. Oh well, the truth is, that he's right, the situation can and should be exploited, to disarm Hezbollah as United Nations resolution 1559 called for after Israel withdrew from Lebanon.

It's about damn time. :angry:

[jdobbin]

Isreali air raid kills 4 U.N. observers.

http://www.cnn.com/

Harper says no to Canadian soldiers in Lebanon.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...er-lebanon.html

[Machinations]

Oops. I guessed they guessed wrong, huh. Oh well, the truth is, that he's right, the situation can and should be exploited, to disarm Hezbollah as United Nations resolution 1559 called for after Israel withdrew from Lebanon.

Ooops. I guess the people living there just had some shit luck. You jackass.

Does this mean Israel will choose to comply with the standing UN orders and leave the Occupied Territories? Or is that just hunky-dory with you?

Update:

The latest of these incidents occurred on 23 July, at 11.15 pm in Cana, a village in southern Lebanon. According to Lebanese Red Cross reports, two of its ambulances were struck by munitions, although both vehicles were clearly marked by the red cross emblem and flashing lights that were visible at a great distance. The incident happened while first-aid workers were transferring wounded patients from one ambulance to another. As a result, nine people including six Red Cross volunteers were wounded. "The ICRC is gravely concerned about the safety of medical staff ", said Balthasar Staehelin, the organization's delegate-general for the Middle East and North Africa. "We have raised this issue with the Israeli authorities and urged them to take the measures needed to avoid such incidents in the future."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefie...15376630513.htm

Are these also terrorists? Or is this just acceptable 'collateral damage'?

[geoffrey]

Last year it was estimated that 10,000 people were dying per month in Darfur... not that anyone seems to care about that.

Agreed, Darfur is a much bigger concern. Just they are black and no one really cares about Africa. But the issue at hand is Israel and if I'm not mistaken comparing to another conflict of a great nature is really showing you have a weak argument.

"Oh, this is worse, let's turn our backs."

--

The big problem I have with this issue is I'm torn between some very conflicting aspects of my political viewpoint. I'm an Israel supporter, I think they have every right in the world to defend their citizens from attack. But I'm too pragmatic to see much sense in bombing whole villages to maybe catch a handful of Hezbollah. I know Hezbollah won't be disarmed using their current tactics, only fueled.

It doesn't work. My criticism isn't against Israeli policy per say, more about their tactics. Their strategy doesn't work and it leaves way too many uninvolved people killed.

Do you, Argus, or anyone else here, actually think the current IDF battleplan will result in the destruction of Hezbollah or the removal of terrorism from Lebanon? If so, why, it has never worked before? If not, then why punish uninvolved people?

[Kindred]

Actually Israel and Lebanon have "kidnapped" each others soldiers for ages and then traded them back for the release of their own prisoners. Israel stated empathically that they knew this is what Lebanon thought would happen but "this time they had changed the rules".

Ooops. I guess the people living there just had some shit luck

.

You jackass.

YAH what he said ....... you jackass ......

Actually a great number of Canadians are concerned about Darfur and actively protested sending out troops into Afghnistan when they would rather see them go into Darfur ....... Canadians are VERY much involved and upset about Darfur, its our PM and our Govenment that doesnt give a rats ass about innocent people dying .......

Far better to follow the Americans into their war of supremecy and terror ...... far better to let Bush dictate Canadian Foreign Policy ..

[Army Guy]

BD:

What, and "take action against Hizbullah or we'll bomb you" is not blackmail?

I think people tend to forget that the Hizbullah is an terrorist org, which has been attacking Israel on a regular basis, and lebanon refuses to comply with any of the UN resolutions that brought about the Israelis withdrawal in the first place. If the UN was not just a powerless org, they could have enforced those resolutions.

Your suggesting that Israel set up some form of payment to get lebanon to comply. then what do you think the Lebanese gov't will have a change of heart, and make the bad men go away.

As for the "pushing the Jews into the sea" meme, I don't recall the Lebanese people or elected government ever making any such vow.

Actually the Hezbullah have won all 23 seats in southern lebanon, and they make very clear of there objectives.

My Webpage

Unless you're operating from the base assumption that Arabs in the region are a homogenous mass and thus, say, Hamas's beliefs apply to all. But to do so would be to ignore the fundamental differences within Lebanese society, not to mention the many differences across Arab society as a whole.

Are you kidding me, how does a group win all the seats available, and the mass of southern lebanese not fully support there activities. They may not apply to all but the majority yes.

Oh? And what do you have in mind? Carpet bombing? Nukes?

These terroists need to be hunted down and destroyed, before there is any chance of peace. lebanon has forced that option on Israel through there lack of action on UN resolutions, and by there support of the Hez.

If Lebanon is invaded, the Lebanese government has the right to act in self defence. Or does that right apply only to Israel?

Lebanon, has to take responsiabilty for it's own inactions, and creating this situation, they are getting what they sow, but ya they can act in thier own defense, in fact the more the better.

As for the rest: Syria only withdrew its contol over Lebanon a year or so ago. How well established do you think the new government is? Why do people expect miracles from a government that has barely had time to establish itself in its own area, let alone in areas where Hizbullah has been doing the government's work for decades?

Good come back, lets not hold the lebanese gov't responsable because they have just taken power.

In fact they never even addressed the issue, instead they have shown thier support for the Hizbullah.

In fact members of the hez actually control all the seats in southern lebanon, and are recongized as the ligimate freedom fighting force. and when they act or terrorize they act as the lebanonese gov't.

How many acts of war does Israel have to endure until the west finally say OK you can punish them. Or is it all right to send suicide bombers into another country, or launch rockets into thier cities.

So much for the moral division between the IDF and Hizbullah

Moral division, lets talk about moral division shall we.

what did the west say or do when Russia used chemical warfare on chechen rebels, killing thousands.

what did the west do when thousands of rwandians were killed with machettes.

and yet a years later nobody cares. So why when Israel acts everyone is in shock and gasps "those damn jews" look what they are doing to those poor terrorists, and thier supporters, we need to do something about that.

Yes we do need to do something, we in the west need to sit down a figure out just how far we need to go to wiping out terrorists and then do it. show them that if you or your group commits terrorist acts this is what is going to happen.

[Army Guy]

kindred:

Actually a great number of Canadians are concerned about Darfur and actively protested sending out troops into Afghnistan when they would rather see them go into Darfur ....... Canadians are VERY much involved and upset about Darfur, its our PM and our Govenment that doesnt give a rats ass about innocent people dying .......

What is the differance between Dafur or Afganistan, are one people worth more than the other.

alot of canadians are making decisions on afgan based on what they concieve as an American operation. And don't give a rats ass about the afgans that are being helped.

Canadians have no one to blame but themselfs when it comes to the lack of resources to send support to multi countries at the same time. very few even raised an eyebrow when the Military was been slashed, to pay for our social programs and PM legacy projects. Canadians don't give rats ass about anything that does not effect them personal," OH yes the new generation of Canadians we are very vocal, peace loving, and very polite, very anti american. But when shown the costs of thier complaints, whines and bulbbering they quickly sit down and shut up.

In fact our current PM has done more for the military than any party has in the last 20 years.

[Shady]

Ooops. I guess the people living there just had some shit luck. You jackass.

You're half right. Some people living there did indeed have some bad luck. Their government has failed them, and now, unfortunately, many civilians are paying the price. However, I wouldn't doubt that a significant portion of the Lebanese population supports Hezbollah. In which case, they're getting a real taste of just how shitty war can be. Maybe they'll reconsider just how badly they want to destroy Israel, and realize that living in peace beside their neighbour might not be such a bad life after all.

Does this mean Israel will choose to comply with the standing UN orders and leave the Occupied Territories? Or is that just hunky-dory with you?

I think Israel would definitely comply with UN orders and leave occupied territories. Except, this whole situation has shown what a crock "land for peace" really is. Israel leaves Lebanon six years ago, and does it lead to peace? Nope. The lands they leave end up being staging grounds for attacks. Gaza is another perfect example. I think if you could guarantee real land for peace, Israel would give up any occupied territories in a heart beat.

Are these also terrorists? Or is this just acceptable 'collateral damage'?

Again, the real culprits are Hezbollah. If they didn't hide behind civilians, if they didn't use homes as launching pads for missiles, if they didn't use homes, schools, and mosques as weapons depots, if they didn't use ambulances as transport vehicles, much of this collateral damage could be avoided. But they fight as cowards, disregarding the well-being of the Lebanese people. Your anger and outrage is misplaced.

[Black Dog]

Agreed, Darfur is a much bigger concern. Just they are black and no one really cares about Africa. But the issue at hand is Israel and if I'm not mistaken comparing to another conflict of a great nature is really showing you have a weak argument.

Isn't it interesting, though, that the same basic causes drive these conflicts? Religion and tribalism are the scourge of humanity.

I think people tend to forget that the Hizbullah is an terrorist org, which has been attacking Israel on a regular basis, and lebanon refuses to comply with any of the UN resolutions that brought about the Israelis withdrawal in the first place. If the UN was not just a powerless org, they could have enforced those resolutions.

Has the Lebanese government actually out and out refused to comply? Or have they not acted because they are incapable of doing so or becaus ethe cost of doing so would be too high? There's an important distinction there.

Your suggesting that Israel set up some form of payment to get lebanon to comply. then what do you think the Lebanese gov't will have a change of heart, and make the bad men go away.

No, I'm suggesting israel provide some kind of incentive. They could co-ordinate with the Lebanese military, they could offer to help rebuild and help set up services in Lebanon that are currently provided by Hizbullah. There's lots of options.

Actually the Hezbullah have won all 23 seats in southern lebanon, and they make very clear of there objectives.

23 out of 128 seats. Hizbullah and the Lebanese government are not one and the same.

Are you kidding me, how does a group win all the seats available, and the mass of southern lebanese not fully support there activities. They may not apply to all but the majority yes.

Perhaps the majority of Shiites, but remember they are the minority of the population in Lebanon.

These terroists need to be hunted down and destroyed, before there is any chance of peace. lebanon has forced that option on Israel through there lack of action on UN resolutions, and by there support of the Hez.

That's rhetoric. I'm asking about strategy and tactics.

Good come back, lets not hold the lebanese gov't responsable because they have just taken power.

In fact they never even addressed the issue, instead they have shown thier support for the Hizbullah.

Where has the Lebanese government shown its support for Hizbullah? Cite, pelase. The government's reluctance to act against Hizbullah is largely due to its unwillingness to wade back into a civil war. The last time Israel went after a terorist organizxation in Lebanon and stared a civil war the end result was the creation of Hizbullah.

In fact members of the hez actually control all the seats in southern lebanon, and are recongized as the ligimate freedom fighting force. and when they act or terrorize they act as the lebanonese gov't.

Nonsense. Again, they are a small minority in Parliment and the current government has acknowledged that Hizbullah's military activities are problematic, even as it recognizes the organization's legitimacy as a political entity.

Look at it this way: I think the Lebanese government knows Israel won't keep its current campaign up indefinitely. So they are prepared to take their lumps until such a time as a ceasefire or other settlement is reached (sooner than later, no doubt) rather than risk sparking another round of sectarian civil strife.

How many acts of war does Israel have to endure until the west finally say OK you can punish them. Or is it all right to send suicide bombers into another country, or launch rockets into thier cities.

False dichotomy.

Shady:

I think Israel would definitely comply with UN orders and leave occupied territories. Except, this whole situation has shown what a crock "land for peace" really is. Israel leaves Lebanon six years ago, and does it lead to peace? Nope. The lands they leave end up being staging grounds for attacks. Gaza is another perfect example. I think if you could guarantee real land for peace, Israel would give up any occupied territories in a heart beat.

Except neither case is an example of "land for peace". Both were unilateral withdrawls made in the abscence of any deal or negotiated framework to establish any kind of authourity over the areas.

[Machinations]

Again, the real culprits are Hezbollah. If they didn't hide behind civilians, if they didn't use homes as launching pads for missiles, if they didn't use homes, schools, and mosques as weapons depots, if they didn't use ambulances as transport vehicles, much of this collateral damage could be avoided. But they fight as cowards, disregarding the well-being of the Lebanese people. Your anger and outrage is misplaced.

Any evidence that there were Hezbollah sheltering in those two ambulances mentioned in the report I cited?

How about the UN post Israel bombed and then continued to shell during the rescue operation? You know, the one the Canadian soldier is now buried under, they can't recover the body. Were there some homemade rockets there? Any evidence?

Or are you an apologist for Israel talking out your butt-hole again? You're sheer rhetoric, no fact.

I'll tell you whats cowardly - shelling population centers with artillery and warplanes. That is the DEFINITION of cowardly.

[Shady]

Any evidence that there were Hezbollah sheltering in those two ambulances mentioned in the report I cited?

Any evidence that there wasn't? What IS absolutely known, is that Hezbollah uses ambulances and trucks with the red cross symbol for the transportation.

How about the UN post Israel bombed and then continued to shell during the rescue operation? You know, the one the Canadian soldier is now buried under, they can't recover the body. Were there some homemade rockets there? Any evidence?

You seem to be missing the point. When you have cowardly terrorists hiding behind civilians, these types of incidents are bound to happen. You're falling for Hezbollah's pathetic tactics.

I'll tell you whats cowardly - shelling population centers with artillery and warplanes. That is the DEFINITION of cowardly

Na, that's the definition of war. Like I've already stated, cowardly is using homes for missile launches, using hospitals, schools, and mosques for weapons depots, and ambulances for transportation. Hiding behind civilians is as cowardly as one can get. I'm sorry you fail to see that. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

[Machinations]

Any evidence that there wasn't? What IS absolutely known, is that Hezbollah uses ambulances and trucks with the red cross symbol for the transportation.

This is absolutely known! Wow, my scholarly friend, a cite would help! I know you're not usually asked to actually back up your sweeping declarations with any evidence, but this isn't high school debate class and I won't prove a negative to you.

Other than your staunch and seemingly unthinking blather in Israel's defense, do you have any actual facts? An unbiased, non-Israeli source, if you please.