Poll: Majority of Americans dumb as rocks

[Black Dog]

Nope, I fully undersand the terms hate speech and ethnocentrism. And you exemplify both very well.

Do tell...

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Morals and religion have failed to provide protecton to citizens. Actions not concepts determine fate. There should be a law against the political use of either in the administration of a country. Governments should stop telling people how to live and instead figuring out an easier way for citizens to realize there potential. Just as the day of the city state has passed, there is a new age possibility where the nation state will cease to exist in favor of globalism.

When society finally gets to the point where national protectionism is no longer required as a means of preventing citizens from harm originating outside of their borders the entire question of morality and religion will return to where it belongs in the homes and communities of citizens. Such things must never be enforced on individuals, they can only be accepted in consent.

[MightyAC]

55 per cent of Americans believe God created humans in their present form. 65 per cent want creationism taught in schools.

What?! Wait a minute, what year is it?

Now that the socons are ruling North America I frequently feel like I've been transported back to the 1600's. Holy wars, terrorism, bombings, environmental eradication, recombination of church and state, is anyone else embarrassed to be living in this time?

[Argus]

Well, maybe I just don't understand why I should give deference to silly superstitions. Would you demand people who believe in astrology, crystals or other new-age hokum be accorded the same degree of respect for their cherished beliefs? Anyway, the beauty of a free society is that people are free to believe wheatever stupid crap they want and I am free to ridicule them. And I would never advocate the suppression of those beliefs except in such cases (as in the teaching of creationism in science class) where supernatural beliefs are imposed upon the secular sphere.

Would you ever vote for a Muslim? Do you think Muslims would make good leaders in Canada? Would it make you uncomfortable if a lot of Muslims got elected to Parliament?

[Black Dog]

Would you ever vote for a Muslim? Do you think Muslims would make good leaders in Canada? Would it make you uncomfortable if a lot of Muslims got elected to Parliament?

That depends on the candidate. I'd have no issue wih voting for a Muslim, Jew or Christian who recognized the neccessary separation between their personal religious beliefs and public policy.

[Shady]

That depends on the candidate. I'd have no issue wih voting for a Muslim, Jew or Christian who recognized the neccessary separation between their personal religious beliefs and public policy

Really? You would vote for someone that you yourself describe as "dumb as rocks", that believe in "silly superstitions" and "ascribe to outdated, archaic, illogical supernatural belief systems"? Wow, there's that consistency again.

Seriously dude, you're too funny.

[MightyAC]

Would you ever vote for a Muslim? Do you think Muslims would make good leaders in Canada? Would it make you uncomfortable if a lot of Muslims got elected to Parliament?

That depends on the candidate. I'd have no issue wih voting for a Muslim, Jew or Christian who recognized the neccessary separation between their personal religious beliefs and public policy.

Exactly. I don't care what someone's personal religious beliefs are provided they leave them at home. Our longest serving PM sought advice from his dead dog....but he didn't advocate teaching our kids to channel the spirits of their dead pets in school.

What’s that Sparky? We should force Christian beliefs on the proletariat? Bark once for yes and twice for no…

[Black Dog]

Really? You would vote for someone that you yourself describe as "dumb as rocks", that believe in "silly superstitions" and "ascribe to outdated, archaic, illogical supernatural belief systems"? Wow, there's that consistency again

How is that inconsistent? Again, people are free to believe wheatever stupid crap they want, and a good number of people have some degree of religious belief, as is their perogative. If I were only to vote for avowed atheists, I'd be sitting at home twiddling my thumbs each election day. Fortunately, there are degrees of religious belief.

[BHS]

Well, maybe I just don't understand why I should give deference to silly superstitions. Would you demand people who believe in astrology, crystals or other new-age hokum be accorded the same degree of respect for their cherished beliefs? Anyway, the beauty of a free society is that people are free to believe wheatever stupid crap they want and I am free to ridicule them.

So what this thread boils down to is not so much as a genuine attempt to debate a given topic, so much as an excuse for you to exercise your freedom to ridicule Americans.

And I would never advocate the suppression of those beliefs except in such cases (as in the teaching of creationism in science class) where supernatural beliefs are imposed upon the secular sphere.

Which is fine. So long as you don't confuse making decisions from a viewpoint informed by religious indoctrination as being the imposition of that religion itself.

I equate belief (or, to be percise, non-belief) with education levels, which in turn have a positive correlation with overall intelligence. Or are you saying the countries with the highest levels of literacy, education and overall social and scientific advancement do not have lower levels of religious belief than those on the opposite end of the scale?

There is another possibility: countries with the highest levels of education and literacy also have the highest standards of living, and the reverse is also true. People who face desperate circumstances often turn to supernatural beliefs to cope with their earthly struggles. It's entirely possible that religious is less important to the people of the first world not because they are better educated, but because they are too fat and satisfied to feel the need for it.

[Argus]

Really? You would vote for someone that you yourself describe as "dumb as rocks", that believe in "silly superstitions" and "ascribe to outdated, archaic, illogical supernatural belief systems"? Wow, there's that consistency again

How is that inconsistent? Again, people are free to believe wheatever stupid crap they want,

Indeed. That's why we tolerate you.

and a good number of people have some degree of religious belief, as is their perogative. If I were only to vote for avowed atheists, I'd be sitting at home twiddling my thumbs each election day. Fortunately, there are degrees of religious belief.

That's a cheap, weaselly cop-out, but I hadn't expected anything better from you.

Yes, there are degrees of religious belief, and Muslims tend to be waaaaayyy over there on the most extreme fringes of fanaticism. But then religious fanatics only seem to bother you when they're Christians or Jews.

Now come right back at me and tell me how wonderful and tolerant Muslims are and how there are only a very few extremists, just like there are in Chrstianity.

[Black Dog]

So what this thread boils down to is not so much as a genuine attempt to debate a given topic, so much as an excuse for you to exercise your freedom to ridicule Americans.

No, not Americans. Just 55 per cent of them.

Which is fine. So long as you don't confuse making decisions from a viewpoint informed by religious indoctrination as being the imposition of that religion itself.

Well, that depends on the decision, doesn't it? For example if we're talking about an issue like gay marriage and had a situation where candidate stood opposed based on his personal religious beliefs, I don't see tat as an imposition of religious beliefs. By I wouldn't vote for thatcandidate.

There is another possibility: countries with the highest levels of education and literacy also have the highest standards of living, and the reverse is also true. People who face desperate circumstances often turn to supernatural beliefs to cope with their earthly struggles. It's entirely possible that religious is less important to the people of the first world not because they are better educated, but because they are too fat and satisfied to feel the need for it.

Let me know how having a higher level of supernatural belief is working out for those folks and their earthly struggles.

Indeed. That's why we tolerate you.

Oh! I am hurt.

Yes, there are degrees of religious belief, and Muslims tend to be waaaaayyy over there on the most extreme fringes of fanaticism. But then religious fanatics only seem to bother you when they're Christians or Jews.

Funny: the survey I cited didn't break it down by religion, so presumably, the folks I was mocking included Muslims and Jews. Sorry my antipathy towards religion isn't specific enough for you.

Now come right back at me and tell me how wonderful and tolerant Muslims are and how there are only a very few extremists, just like there are in Chrstianity.

Okay: Muslims are wonderful and tolerant and there are only a few extremists, just like there are in christianity. Will you go away now, please?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Are they as tolerant as the IRA or the KKK, those are real good organizations for those into terrorism North American style.

[Argus]

Are they as tolerant as the IRA or the KKK, those are real good organizations for those into terrorism North American style.

Are you suggesting we vote for known for KKK or IRA members?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Not at all. I was foolishly suggesting that all terrorism is the same, but I may have offended some people with such a careless and unexplained remark. We had the FLQ in Canada, and most of the worlds nations have had or still have terrorist organization in their midst. Some countries elect terrorists, like Palestine.

[BubberMiley]

Would you ever vote for a Muslim? Do you think Muslims would make good leaders in Canada? Would it make you uncomfortable if a lot of Muslims got elected to Parliament?

Do you find Muslims to be relevant to every topic?

[MightyAC]

Yes, there are degrees of religious belief, and Muslims tend to be waaaaayyy over there on the most extreme fringes of fanaticism. But then religious fanatics only seem to bother you when they're Christians or Jews.

Now come right back at me and tell me how wonderful and tolerant Muslims are and how there are only a very few extremists, just like there are in Chrstianity.

Their fanatics are worse than our fanatics?!?! That's what you've got? You're pathetic. That's like a Hell's Angel saying the Rock Machine or the Mafia is bad news. Disgusting, evil deeds are done in the name of every religion every day. From treating women as the second class, to blowing up Catholics or Protestants to suicide bombers, to unequal treatment for different races, religions or sexual orientations...every single day people commit atrocities in the name of a god.

The “One Tin Soldier” lyric is so true…

Go ahead and hate your neighbour, go ahead and cheat a friend. Do it in the name of heaven you can justify it in the end…

[newbie]

Yes, there are degrees of religious belief, and Muslims tend to be waaaaayyy over there on the most extreme fringes of fanaticism. But then religious fanatics only seem to bother you when they're Christians or Jews...

I disagree with that. I don't think any religion has a monopoly on fanaticism. What this fellows says makes a lot of sense:

"There is in the U.S. a very powerful religious force that has a special pre-occupation," he explained. "They use the Bible, the Old Testament, to say that the end of the world is coming. Armageddon (in northern Israel) is where the final battle will take place and the rapture will take all believers up to heaven."

http://www.ipsnews.net/fsm2003/26.01.2003/nota13.shtml

[BubberMiley]

Yes, there are degrees of religious belief, and Muslims tend to be waaaaayyy over there on the most extreme fringes of fanaticism.

That couldn't just be your perception, could it, considering you only pay any attention to the muslims who are in the news? Remember, there are over a billion muslims in the world. Not all of them have strapped bombs to their chests yet. Perhaps if you knew some muslims personally, as you probably do christians and jews, you would realize that some are rather moderate.

[Black Dog]

The point is, though that Muslims aren't particularily relevant to the topic at hand. It's interesting that this thread quickly turned into an examination of my predjudices (which are neither here nor there) as oppossed to a discussion on the rather remarkable persistance of religiosity in the U.S. Admittedly, I started this thread to be provocative, but was hoping for more than a series of ad hominems in response. Oh well.

[Argus]

Would you ever vote for a Muslim? Do you think Muslims would make good leaders in Canada? Would it make you uncomfortable if a lot of Muslims got elected to Parliament?

Do you find Muslims to be relevant to every topic?

When someone sneers at and denigrates Christian religious people yet at the same time champions minorities - who happen to be extremely religious, even moreso than the Christians he's sneering at - well, it opens up the question of how hypocritical he is.

Which in this case is pretty darned hypocritcal.

[Argus]

Yes, there are degrees of religious belief, and Muslims tend to be waaaaayyy over there on the most extreme fringes of fanaticism.

That couldn't just be your perception, could it, considering you only pay any attention to the muslims who are in the news? Remember, there are over a billion muslims in the world. Not all of them have strapped bombs to their chests yet. Perhaps if you knew some muslims personally, as you probably do christians and jews, you would realize that some are rather moderate.

I'm sure some are. But my perceptions are based not merely on news items about crazed terrorists, but polls and surveys and long historical and sociological items on the culture and values of Arabs/Muslims. Granted, I have not been to the middle east, but what I have read, including translations of Arab news items, school textbooks, speeches, etc. lead me to believe there is what we would consider a shockingly hateful attitude towards Jews - and to a lesser extent westerners based on their religion. Do you know what the number one field of study is throughout the Muslim world? Hint: It's not engineering, business or Liberal Arts.

[Argus]

The point is, though that Muslims aren't particularily relevant to the topic at hand. It's interesting that this thread quickly turned into an examination of my predjudices (which are neither here nor there) as oppossed to a discussion on the rather remarkable persistance of religiosity in the U.S. Admittedly, I started this thread to be provocative, but was hoping for more than a series of ad hominems in response. Oh well.

Then perhaps you should have stated your desire to discuss the "remarkable persistance of religiosity" in the US rather than sneered and derided Americans and giving the thread an insulting title.

You could have questioned why Christianity has held on so strongly there as opposed to Italy, where the Vatican is, or Canada or France. Why has it anyway? Interesting question, but you didn't ask that.

If you want to sneer at Americans for being "dumb as rocks" when it comes to being observant Chrstians then it would seem to me that you need to sneer at Muslim Canadians and Hindu Canadians and Sikh Canadians for also being "dumb as rocks" and do so openly without regard to whether or not people might call you a bigot or racist.

But I have a feeling if I was to start a post complaining about how ignorant and stupid Hindu, Sikh and Muslim Canadians are and mocking their religious beliefs you'd be among the first to post nasty things about me.

But it's always so safe to be bigoted towards Americans, right? Who could possibly call you on it?

[Drea]

Yes, there are degrees of religious belief, and Muslims tend to be waaaaayyy over there on the most extreme fringes of fanaticism.

That couldn't just be your perception, could it, considering you only pay any attention to the muslims who are in the news? Remember, there are over a billion muslims in the world. Not all of them have strapped bombs to their chests yet. Perhaps if you knew some muslims personally, as you probably do christians and jews, you would realize that some are rather moderate.

I'm sure some are. But my perceptions are based not merely on news items about crazed terrorists, but polls and surveys and long historical and sociological items on the culture and values of Arabs/Muslims. Granted, I have not been to the middle east, but what I have read, including translations of Arab news items, school textbooks, speeches, etc. lead me to believe there is what we would consider a shockingly hateful attitude towards Jews - and to a lesser extent westerners based on their religion. Do you know what the number one field of study is throughout the Muslim world? Hint: It's not engineering, business or Liberal Arts.

They study the Koran up until graduation then they move on to other subjects such as engineering.

My friend in Iran (haven't heard from her in at least 6 months) has just graduated and she said "Now my real education begins!" as she is going to university and taking robotics. She DID take robotics in high school, she sent me a picture of her robot -- quite ingenious for a group of 16-17 year old girls for sure! She also went to Russia for a math competition when she was in grade 10.

Our perception is that they all live in mud huts and bow to allah every 5 minutes. Not true. There are thinkers especially amoung the youth.

They are like we were before our cultural revolution. If only the west would stay the heck out of it and let the youth of Iran do what comes naturally to youth everywhere -- demand change.

[Argus]

They study the Koran up until graduation then they move on to other subjects such as engineering.

My friend in Iran (haven't heard from her in at least 6 months) has just graduated and she said "Now my real education begins!" as she is going to university and taking robotics. She DID take robotics in high school, she sent me a picture of her robot -- quite ingenious for a group of 16-17 year old girls for sure! She also went to Russia for a math competition when she was in grade 10.

Our perception is that they all live in mud huts and bow to allah every 5 minutes. Not true. There are thinkers especially amoung the youth.

I'm sure there are, but even in university, the number one subject for study - by far, is the Koran.

[Black Dog]

When someone sneers at and denigrates Christian religious people yet at the same time champions minorities - who happen to be extremely religious, even moreso than the Christians he's sneering at - well, it opens up the question of how hypocritical he is.

Which in this case is pretty darned hypocritcal

Again: where did I specifically denigrate Christians?

Then perhaps you should have stated your desire to discuss the "remarkable persistance of religiosity" in the US rather than sneered and derided Americans and giving the thread an insulting title.

You could have questioned why Christianity has held on so strongly there as opposed to Italy, where the Vatican is, or Canada or France. Why has it anyway? Interesting question, but you didn't ask that.

Again: where did I specifically mention Christians?

If you want to sneer at Americans for being "dumb as rocks" when it comes to being observant Chrstians then it would seem to me that you need to sneer at Muslim Canadians and Hindu Canadians and Sikh Canadians for also being "dumb as rocks" and do so openly without regard to whether or not people might call you a bigot or racist.

IOW: be like you and knock any religion that's that's not lily-white.

But I have a feeling if I was to start a post complaining about how ignorant and stupid Hindu, Sikh and Muslim Canadians are and mocking their religious beliefs you'd be among the first to post nasty things about me.

Well you do, and you have with posts mocking clothing, rituals (I remember the great one a while back where you insinuated that all devout Hindus are big into honour killing). And I've kept silent. So, basically: you're full of shit. (and, given your defence of Christianity and stated loathing of nearly every other religion, you're also a hypocrite.)