Trump LIES that we are taking back OUR OIL from Venezuela

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And it only took you a boiler as big as a garbage truck to say so.

 

Half of his, best I could do 

I know anything over two sentences hurts your brain though so I'm sure it was still far too long

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, Legato said:

You sure about that, I mean, it would explain a lot.

It had near zero effect on me. I kept wondering what the big deal is.

The answer is, you have do a lot more than a couple of hits to get addicted, unlike smoking tobacco.

[John Stone]

10 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sure they do. That's basically how Obama got one

[John Stone]

11 hours ago, robosmith said:

They don't give out Nobels for abducting a foreign leader and stealing a countries' oil.

Yassar Arafat was after an entire country

[BeaverFever]

19 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

That's neither here nor there: you're trying to make the claim that the US can't do something in Venezuela that you supported them doing in Ukraine. 

What's the deal, Beave? Is Zelensky illegitimate? Did the US Gov't commit a crime in Ukraine? Or do you have a different tune to sing about how international laws apply in Venezuela now? 

You don’t know what you’re talking about. US did not kidnap the president of Ukraine and steal its oil,  

Zelensky was legitimately elected by Ukrainians in a free and fair election despite Russian attempts to maintain its illegitimate dictator who was installed by Moscow in a rigged election 

[Barquentine]

21 hours ago, User said:

You don't have to wonder, Trump said why

Think somebody put a billion dollars in a numbered account just before the pardon?

"Hernandez in 2024 was convicted of conspiring with drug traffickers and using his government position to help hundreds of tons of cocaine enter the United States. He was sentenced to 45 years in prison.

President Donald Trump pardoned Hernandez in November, saying in a post to his Truth Social account that he had been “treated very harshly and unfairly.”

[User]

41 minutes ago, Barquentine said:

Think somebody put a billion dollars in a numbered account just before the pardon?

No. You have any evidence or just want to hide behind stupid question to make insinuations? 

[Michael Hardner]

11 hours ago, eyeball said:

It probably needs to be said Juan Orlando Hernandez is a conservative...

Thanks for the Info but to my mind I'm asking if he has a TrumpCoin account.

 

Seriously has anyone explained this, beyond what @Barquentine posted below ?  Because it's kind of a jaw-dropper to just accept this explanation, even if you are a Trump fan IMO.

 

Quote

 

President Donald Trump pardoned Hernandez in November, saying in a post to his Truth Social account that he had been “treated very harshly and unfairly.”

 

[User]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

You don’t know what you’re talking about. US did not kidnap the president of Ukraine and steal its oil,

We didn’t steal any Venezuelan oil or kidnap their president - the rightful ruler wasn’t in power, Maduro was widely recognized as an illegitimate leader. 
 

I mean, you folks are all about the law and order and are just fine with Maduro being a brutal dictator who wasn’t elected and the as not the legitimate leader/ 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

You don’t know what you’re talking about. US did not kidnap the president of Ukraine and steal its oil,  

Zelensky was legitimately elected by Ukrainians in a free and fair election despite Russian attempts to maintain its illegitimate dictator who was installed by Moscow in a rigged election 

So you're denying US involvement in ousting Ukraine's president? And let's not forget that the US selected Zelenski, not the Ukrainian people. That's not up for debate.

All that Trump did is apprehend a guy that Biden's autopen had a $25M bounty on. Is it somehow more legal for the US to pay $25M to have someone kidnap Maduro and bring him to the US illegally than it is to nab the guy themselves? Would it be more legal to just whack the guy like Obama did to Osama Bin Laden?

Don't act like Maduro is any better than Osama. He's harbouring terrorist orgs whose plans are to harm America, and he's shipping drugs into the US that are killing way more people than Osama ever did. 

Stop being such a f'ing hypocrite, Beave. There's no such thing as terrorists somehow being "more or less indicted than each other" in different countries. If the US wants to go get terrorists, we have always condoned that. When India wants to come get a terrorist in Canada, I personally am fine with that. Maduro is no different from Osama or a Khalistani terrorist here... 1) If a country with a legitimate gov't has identified a terrorist threat I think it's ok to go get them, and 2) when illegitimate countries and terrorist orgs wanna kill someone, they just do it as well, and we can't seem to stop them. Places like Russia and China, whose governmental legitimacy is of a questionable nature from our POV, commit extrajudicial killings in foreign countries as well. Literally everybody who can do it, does it. 

You're only hiding behind "tha wules of tha game 😭😭😭" now because it's Trump playing it, Beave. You view Maduro as "a man of the people with an iron fist" just like you view Suleimani as "a beloved father figure of the Iranian people" just because they were defeated by Trump, and "the enemy of your enemy is your friend". You're literally choosing thse guys over the POTUS, that's how f'ing sick you are. If Obama got those guys you'd be dancing in the parade, begging for a statue to made so that you could grovel at its feet.

Put on your cozy little Trudeau jammies and go back to bed, princess. This is an adult conversation, and we're dealing with real world events, not your "pwecious feewings". 

[User]

7 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

So you're denying US involvement in ousting Ukraine's president? And let's not forget that the US selected Zelenski, not the Ukrainian people. That's not up for debate.

Ousting him… how?

There were free and fair elections that Zelensky won legitimately.

The US didn’t select him. He was elected. 
 

[BeaverFever]

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I can always tell when you know you're wrong you try and make your post as long as humanly possible with absolute garbage   

1) It’s not “long as possible” each line is a response to something you said. It’s just as long as yours.  Don’t write me a long post if you don’t want a long response. We hav already established that your ADHD doesn’t allow you to read anything longer than few sentences but you can’t expect to write long posts and then complain if you get a response of equal length. Get it?

 

2) Not garbage. ONCE AGAIN you are the one spouting made-up nonsense, pretending to be knowledgeable about topics you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about (remember your “cans of gasoline”? LMAO) and mindlessly parroting Trump lies.  Claiming anything that disagrees with your drivel is “garbage” is just another of your lame troll tactics you resort to when you’re in over your head. 
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No you completely failed to address the fact that the drugs are a threat. Just simply saying you don't think they are is not in any way shape or form addressing it. Hundreds of thousands of Americans die from drug overdoses from the exact drugs these guys are bringing in that is a direct threat and This guy was 100% involved with it

Cocaine doesn’t kill “hundreds of thousands of Americans”. Your ridiculous argument which you have now expanded to include all “drugs” is just another excuse for forever wars because there will always be hundreds of different types of drugs and contraband, domestic and imported and criminal activity associated with it. You want us to believe that as long as someone somewhere in America consumes a drug, USA has unlimited license under UN charter to militarily attack whatever country may have been involved in producing it (unless it’s highly addictive Rx opioid made by a US drugmaker then Republicans protect it). That’s absurd. And the solution to America’s drug problem is to address America’s domestic social and economic failures that create American demand for drugs, which Americans consume voluntarily. 
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

As I have pointed out trump did a totally normal thing that happens all the time and the history of it is there. Noriega iraq afghanistan iran lydia bin Laden

 

As I pointed out none of those have anything to do with what Trump did, especially that Lydia lady 😀

I’ll admit that Panama had many similarities but at least Bush had a better pretext: the Panama Canal, a sudden violent incident and a US soldier being killed by Noriega’s men. Not “oh Americans have been consuming cocaine for 100 years but we just now decided it’s actually an attack no different than pearl harbour”. 
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Lying about it won't change the facts

And yet you continue to lie. 
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And if another country is engineering the deaths of your citizens whether it's by machine gun or poisonous substance it really makes no difference.

Nobody was “engineering the deaths” of Americans. That’s an example of your ridiculous garbage arguments 

 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Expropriation was illegal. You can't illegally take over the government and then claim that the actions of that government are legal. That should be obvious even to you

1) Expropriation happened under Chavez, who was elected   YOU DIDN’T KNOW THAT 

2) Regardless, the legality or not of the expropriation is a matter for the Venezuelan legal system to consider, not a reason for another country to invade. Some countries have shitty governments with shitty unfair laws and corrupt leaders and a corrupt legal system, that’s just how the world is and always has been. That doesn’t give other countries the right to invade when their citizens have a civil law dispute. Americans don’t have a god-given right to do business in other countries or even to have their lawsuits considered by those country’s courts. That’s why the vast majority of people don’t invest in third world dictatorships. . Last I checked all those US oil companies are still among the most rich and powerful companies on the planet,  they will be just fine. They knew what they were getting into when they invested in a banana republic dictatorship and they took their chances. The US government should not be the personal debt collector of private corporations doing business overseas
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And absolutely fentanyl comes from Venezuela. It's not a primary source but if you mix it in with the cocaine people love it but it kills.

Nope sorry, not Venezuela. You’re fooled by Fake news again.  That happens in Mexico or by criminals and street level dealers in USA.  You have probably forgotten that many criminals are Americans. 
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Quit trying to pretend that cocaine is legal and safe

It is the most tarded argument in the world that cocaine is self-administered therefore the suppliers are innocent.

Nobody is making those arguments  Quit putting up straw men.
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You would  honestly have us lock up the users and let the dealers go free? That's literally your argument do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

 

No, that’s another of your straw men  But I will note that “locking up isers” is standard conservative policy  amd “letting the dealers go free” is exactly what Trump did doe the ex-president of Honduras, one of the worst traffickers,  just because he’s now a MAGA bro  @CdnFoxYou keep hiding from this inconvenient fact like a little biotch because you have no response 

 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Like it or not Bin Laden was a political figure and not just some guy.

He was not a “political figure” he was recognized by the UN no less as a terrorist who was actively waging war against USA. And Not because he was indirectly contributing to just one of the hundreds of social ills that affect American society and that impacts a statistically insignificant number of lives. 

 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Same as Maduro who wasn't president, And who was also recognized globally as a narco terrorist. America has taken out generals and politicians of other countries plenty of times. 

Maduro wasn’t recognized as a “narco-terrorist” and the fact that he came to power “illegitimately” doesn’t really change things. Most of the world’s leaders weren’t democratically elected, that doesn’t mean Trump can kidnap them all at his personal whim.  When America carries out regime change or assassinations of armed conflict it is always illegal. The fact that America has committed this crime before and is too big to punish doesn’t make it any less of a crime. What’s different is that previously the US took great pains to argue that their actions were legal in order to preserve world order and not to encourage others. The Trump regime isn’t really bothering to do so because they fundamentally don’t believe in the rule of law or facts or being held accountable to any objective standard. They believe in might makes right and that you should just unquestioningly agree whatever they say or do because you like Trump, end of story. Or,  failing that, that you stay quiet because you fear them.  And that is how they think the whole world should work: the powerful say and do whatever they want and the less powerful either hop on the bandwagon and cheer, or they keep their heads down and STFU, or they suffer the consequences. 
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

As to the Iraq Wars it really doesn't matter why they went, the bottom line is they're both examples where the government decided to overthrow another government which hadn't attacked them directly.

1) It matters that the first iraq war was a UN-sanctioned and approved multinational operation and was also approved by Congress  

2) It matter that the Bush Jr regime went to great lengths to fabricate evidence, and TRIED to get UN approval (they requested but failed)

 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You try and dance around the truth but it all comes back to the same thing. This thing has been standard in American history for years and not just America

What’s been standard is that US has violated international law on several occasions with impunity because it is a superpower amd there’s nothing anyone can do about it. But what is not standard is the total lack this time of any attempt to obtain congressional or international approval or to credibly argue that it’s justifiable.   It’s just naked raw power “we’re doing this because we can and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, Greenland is next, now STFU or you’ll be sorry”. 
 

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

with the stated purpose by the way of doing harm to your country

That’s a ridiculous lie that not only has ZERO evidence but it absurd. Like it’s not just that it’s untrue it’s not even PLAUSIBLE and if you weren’t so clueless and gullible you would realize how ridiculous it is.  Never mind that there’s no evidence to support it, consider:
 

1) The deaths and social ills in USA caused specifically by cocaine (vs other drugs, alcohol, tobacco, crime, poverty, guns, lack of healthcare, pollution, etc) is STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT   If you were trying to harm a society by contaminating it with some smuggled “poison” NOBODY would reasonably think smuggling cocaine would have any meaningful effect  

2) Cocaine that comes to USA  through Venezuela specifically vs other routes is a minority of all cocaine in USA meaning it’s even MORE STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT

3) Venezuelan traffickers are simply one of many middlemen in the trade and have little influence on where the final product ends up, their role is to be a means of getting it off the continent to traffickers in the Caribbean and Central America / Mexico. That’s it:  buy from South American (Colombian) trafficker A and sell to (Caribbean or Central American) trafficker B  Where any of it ultimately ends up happens way later by other people with their own plans and doesn’t involve them  

4) You could nuke Venezuela and everyone in it, the same amount of cocaine will just come to USA via a different route because the DEMAND in USA remains and the SUPPLY never originated from Venezuela to begin with  

12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Your entire arguments boil down to orange man bad. Can't explain how obama was justified doing exactly the same things but trump isn't.

False on both counts. 

Edited January 6 by BeaverFever

[WestCanMan]

41 minutes ago, User said:

Ousting him… how?

There were free and fair elections that Zelensky won legitimately.

The US didn’t select him. He was elected. 
 

1) The Euromaidan protests were openly supported by members of the US gov't, McCain even went there to openly support them

2) The US had paid agitators there, just like at J6th and every other pro/anti-whatever protest anywhere in the world that the US gov't supported.

3) Whether or not it was US-paid snipers that escalated the riots is anyone's guess, but no one anywhere ever thought that snipers were effective as riot-control units.

4) The US gov't selected Zelensky to run in that election. Victoria Nuland was recorded in a phone call blocking Klitschko from running, because Klitschko wasn't as malleable as puppet-Zelenski is. This war would not be going on right now if Klitschko was the Ukrainian president.  

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, User said:

We didn’t steal any Venezuelan oil or kidnap their president - the rightful ruler wasn’t in power, Maduro was widely recognized as an illegitimate leader. 
 

I mean, you folks are all about the law and order and are just fine with Maduro being a brutal dictator who wasn’t elected and the as not the legitimate leader/ 

You are stealing the oil, Trump said so. He has said very little -almost nothing- about freedom and democracy and wellbeing of the Venezuelan people other than to arbitrarily dismiss the idea of holding an election or installing  the winner of the last election , but has said quite a bit about how he plans to plunder their oil. 
 

And if the Maduro regime is so illegitimate and a gang of heinous “narco-terrorists” that are no different than al-Qaeda then why is he keeping them all in power?

[User]

23 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

You are stealing the oil, Trump said so.

No, this is your lie. Trump never said we would steal the oil nor are we stealing any oil.

24 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

And if the Maduro regime is so illegitimate and a gang of heinous “narco-terrorists” that are no different than al-Qaeda then why is he keeping them all in power?

If? So, you think he was a legitimate leader? 
 

[User]

43 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

1) The Euromaidan protests were openly supported by members of the US gov't, McCain even went there to openly support them

2) The US had paid agitators there, just like at J6th and every other pro/anti-whatever protest anywhere in the world that the US gov't supported.

3) Whether or not it was US-paid snipers that escalated the riots is anyone's guess, but no one anywhere ever thought that snipers were effective as riot-control units.

4) The US gov't selected Zelensky to run in that election. Victoria Nuland was recorded in a phone call blocking Klitschko from running, because Klitschko wasn't as malleable as puppet-Zelenski is. This war would not be going on right now if Klitschko was the Ukrainian president.  

Yes, The US and other politicians supported the Democratic process in Ukraine. So what?

What evidence do you have that the US paid agitators and what do you mean by “agitation?”

There is no guess, you have zero evidence the US paid for snipers for crying out loud. You are just trying to insinuate it. 
 

That call happened long before Zelensky and wasn’t the US selecting anyone. 
 

This war wouldn’t be happening if Putin didn’t start it. 

[robosmith]

7 hours ago, John Stone said:

Yassar Arafat was after an entire country

Yeah, the country that Palestinians were terrorized into leaving and subsequently stolen from them.

[robosmith]

7 hours ago, John Stone said:

^Ridiculously poor analogy.

59 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

1) The Euromaidan protests were openly supported by members of the US gov't, McCain even went there to openly support them

2) The US had paid agitators there, just like at J6th and every other pro/anti-whatever protest anywhere in the world that the US gov't supported.

3) Whether or not it was US-paid snipers that escalated the riots is anyone's guess, but no one anywhere ever thought that snipers were effective as riot-control units.

4) The US gov't selected Zelensky to run in that election. Victoria Nuland was recorded in a phone call blocking Klitschko from running, because Klitschko wasn't as malleable as puppet-Zelenski is. This war would not be going on right now if Klitschko was the Ukrainian president.  

Your ^GUESSES mean NOTHING, Canuck.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Barquentine said:

Think somebody put a billion dollars in a numbered account just before the pardon?

"Hernandez in 2024 was convicted of conspiring with drug traffickers and using his government position to help hundreds of tons of cocaine enter the United States. He was sentenced to 45 years in prison.

President Donald Trump pardoned Hernandez in November, saying in a post to his Truth Social account that he had been “treated very harshly and unfairly.”

I think you have absolutely no evidence of that and if it was that simple Maduro would have done it.

So at this point in order to justify an event that you can't condemn directly you're attempting to condemn it indirectly by claiming that it's wrong because something else trump did may have been wrong and then fabricate a bribery scenario to justify why you think that one is wrong  

oh what a tangled web we weave   LOL

If you want to start a thread while you think that particular decision was not right knock yourself out. I've been clear many times that I hate the whole idea of pardons . But that decision has absolutely no bearing on this decision whatsoever. It's so far nobody's presented anything that actually has any legitimacy or weight as to why it was not a good idea to go pull Maduro, other than the possible argument that if trump doesn't have a damn good plan this is going to get very messy very quickly internally in Venezuela. But it's too soon you save trump has a good plan or not for that

[User]

31 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Yeah, the country that Palestinians were terrorized into leaving and subsequently stolen from them.

What country? It was the British controlled territory. The Palestinians had land, and could have had their own country, but chose to spite Israel having one instead and then chose war. 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Seriously has anyone explained this, beyond what @Barquentine posted below ?  Because it's kind of a jaw-dropper to just accept this explanation, even if you are a Trump fan IMO.

 

 

It's actually pretty easy to believe whether you're trump fan or not. You don't have to believe that it's accurate, you just have to believe that he believes it. And that would be very trump

[User]

36 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It's actually pretty easy to believe whether you're trump fan or not. You don't have to believe that it's accurate, you just have to believe that he believes it. And that would be very trump

Well, that, and it’s been the clear pattern with a lot of things, with Trump undoing a lot of Biden actions and the fact that they did politicize the whole J6 prosecutions and the DOJ abuses with others like Pro-Life folks and even Trump himself.

[CdnFox]

20 minutes ago, User said:

Well, that, and it’s been the clear pattern with a lot of things, with Trump undoing a lot of Biden actions and the fact that they did politicize the whole J6 prosecutions and the DOJ abuses with others like Pro-Life folks and even Trump himself.

very true.  I doubt it's very hard to convince trump that biden treated someone unfairly or for political reasons in court. 

[WestCanMan]

3 hours ago, User said:

Yes, The US and other politicians supported Interfered in directed the Democratic process in Ukraine. So what?

Fixed it for ya.

Don't pretend to not know what America gets up to on every square inch of the planet, but especially in Ukraine in the Trump/Biden era. 

The US Gov't DECIDED who Ukrainians could even vote for. 

And if people wanna view Zelenski as "elected enough" for the present time that's fine, there's no one else on earth with a better claim to that throne right now than Zelenski, but it's a joke to pretend that what happened is Venezuela is somehow way worse than what America did in Ukraine: the fact of the matter is that the sovereign democratic processes of both of those countries were completely overtaken by American power-brokers.

What they both have right now for leadership is America's appointee, for better or worse.

I'm just not gonna sit here and listen to Beave pretend that Zelenki's appointment is 100% legitimate but somehow what happened to Maduro is off-the-charts illegitimate. You don't get to have it both ways.

Quote

What evidence do you have that the US paid agitators and what do you mean by “agitation?”

The Americans were bribing, conniving, manipulating, controlling, directing, guiding and everything elsing in Ukraine going back to the '90s. 

Fomenting rebellion/revolution is standard operating procedure for America. They did it in places like Cuba, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Kurdistan (OMG the list probably includes at least one group in every ME country. They have trained and armed soldiers all over the world that ended up fighting against America in one way or another) and other places that are well-documented, and tried it in other places that you've never heard of.

Wouldn't it be really weird if the US did all of that other work in Ukraine but just decided against stoking the flames at Euromaidan? Hell, the Dems even incited rioting and racial division in the United States ffs, when citizens and cops were getting murdered and billions of dollars worth of properties were being looted and destroyed. They also had paid agitators participating in riots AT THEIR OWN CAPITOL on J6th. 

So ask me again if I think that they had paid agitators at Euromaidan 🤣 

"Nope. That's the one time in the last 50 years that riots occurred that ran parallel to America' designs but somehow I just know that the US gov't didn't get involved 😉"

Quote

There is no guess, you have zero evidence the US paid for snipers for crying out loud. You are just trying to insinuate it. 

1) Who would have that? Do you think the US gov't would leave such loose ends around?

2) And who would be dumb enough to accuse the US of being above that?

Quote

That call happened long before Zelensky and wasn’t the US selecting anyone. 

Of course it happened before Z was elected. What would be the point of the US choosing election candidates after Z was already president? That doesn't even make sense. 

Quote

This war wouldn’t be happening if Putin didn’t start it. 

The war wouldn't be happening if Ukraine wasn't joining NATO, and you have been made well aware of that. You've also seen Russia demand it as a condition for ending the war. 

All I can do is show you the proof, I can't Understand it for you. 

Edited January 6 by WestCanMan

[robosmith]

37 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Fixed it for ya.

Don't pretend to not know what America gets up to on every square inch of the planet, but especially in Ukraine in the Trump/Biden era. 

The US Gov't DECIDED who Ukrainians could even vote for. 

And if people wanna view Zelenski as "elected enough" for the present time that's fine, there's no one else on earth with a better claim to that throne right now than Zelenski, but it's a joke to pretend that what happened is Venezuela is somehow way worse than what America did in Ukraine: the fact of the matter is that the sovereign democratic processes of both of those countries were completely overtaken by American power-brokers.

What they both have right now for leadership is America's appointee, for better or worse.

I'm just not gonna sit here and listen to Beave pretend that Zelenki's appointment is 100% legitimate but somehow what happened to Maduro is off-the-charts illegitimate. You don't get to have it both ways.

The Americans were bribing, conniving, manipulating, controlling, directing, guiding and everything elsing in Ukraine going back to the '90s. 

Fomenting rebellion/revolution is standard operating procedure for America. They did it in places like Cuba, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Kurdistan (OMG the list probably includes at least one group in every ME country. They have trained and armed soldiers all over the world that ended up fighting against America in one way or another) and other places that are well-documented, and tried it in other places that you've never heard of.

Wouldn't it be really weird if the US did all of that other work in Ukraine but just decided against stoking the flames at Euromaidan? Hell, the Dems even incited rioting and racial division in the United States ffs, when citizens and cops were getting murdered and billions of dollars worth of properties were being looted and destroyed. They also had paid agitators participating in riots AT THEIR OWN CAPITOL on J6th. 

So ask me again if I think that they had paid agitators at Euromaidan 🤣 

"Nope. That's the one time in the last 50 years that riots occurred that ran parallel to America' designs but somehow I just know that the US gov't didn't get involved 😉"

1) Who would have that? Do you think the US gov't would leave such loose ends around?

2) And who would be dumb enough to accuse the US of being above that?

Of course it happened before Z was elected. What would be the point of the US choosing election candidates after Z was already president? That doesn't even make sense. 

The war wouldn't be happening if Ukraine wasn't joining NATO, and you have been made well aware of that. You've also seen Russia demand it as a condition for ending the war. 

All I can do is show you the proof, I can't Understand it for you. 

When are you going to stop pretending your ^OPINIONS are "the proof"?