Suspected Terrorists Arrested in Toronto

[GostHacked]

That allegation (along with so many of the others that have been mentoned) underlines the ridiculousness of this plot and makes it clear that this is not some hardcore, Al-Qaeda sleeper cell, but a bunch of bored suburban youths roped into a loopy ideology by someone who is apparently something of a wingnut in his own community.

If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones.

This highlights a train of thinking that I see everywhere in Canada now: "It didn't happen, so it couldn't have. It never will."

Slamming planes into the WTC probably looked like a ridiculious plot too.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the best thing for Canada probably would've been to just let them do it and then 'swoop' down on them.

With that last statement, are you advocating this kind of violence then? Let them bomb, to provide the actual proof and evidence you need to prosecute AND to show to the public that terrorism is a HUGE REAL THREAT? Or would you rather have then caught now, throw them in jail, and just continue on with your daily life?

[Argus]

The threat of beheading Prime Minister Harper alone is a scary thought as it was an attempt to kill Canada's Leader regardless of what party he's from

That allegation (along with so many of the others that have been mentoned) underlines the ridiculousness of this plot and makes it clear that this is not some hardcore, Al-Qaeda sleeper cell, but a bunch of bored suburban youths roped into a loopy ideology by someone who is apparently something of a wingnut in his own community.

If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones.

Walkom - and you - both fall into the Hollywood trap of thinking terrorists are sinister, cunning men of intellect with black belts, experts in 18 different weapons and 10 different languages.

At this level, they're nothing but punks with anti-social atttidues. The people who made up the FLQ were not geniuses, nor were those who started the Baader Meinhoff gang, or many others. You don't have to be a genius to mix fertlizer and alcohol, rent a truck, park it next to a building, and then drive away. It doesn't take genius or education. It just takes a lack of care or respect for human life.

How did the evil geniuses who hijacked the planes on 911 spend their last evening? At a strip club oggling girls - no doubt looking forward to the next day when they'd be given their virgins after ascenting to heaven. Were they shrewd, sophisticated men? Hardly.

This is not quite the image that the government and police are portraying of the 17. They paint the suspects as part of an efficiently sinister conspiracy devoted, in Harper's words, to destroying "freedom, democracy and the rule of law."

I doubt these guys put much thought into things beyond "We are defending Allah against the wicked, sinful, godless westerners!" But I doubt the ones who destroyed the World Trade Centre were any more capable of sophisticated thinking.

Every war needs cannon fodder, hopefully cannon fodder who are dumb and will eagerly crowd forward to die for the cause. If you can convince them they'll be heroes and immediately to go heaven to sit at Allah's right hand and be gifted with scores of virgins, well, hey, good on you.

But cannon fodder are still very dangerous. As the WTC demonstrated so clearly. A cube van filled with explosives driven under the Peace Tower in Ottawa would certainly have caused immense damage, and probably brought the tower down. A cube van filled with men with automatic weapons pulling up the members entrance, guarded by a pair of unarmed security guards (which is about forty feet down a wide, shallow flight of stairs from the main entrance to the House of Commons chamber) would almost certainly penetrate the House and result in the deaths and injuries of many MPs and cabinet ministers.

[killjoy]

With that last statement, are you advocating this kind of violence then? Let them bomb, to provide the actual proof and evidence you need to prosecute AND to show to the public that terrorism is a HUGE REAL THREAT? Or would you rather have then caught now, throw them in jail, and just continue on with your daily life?

I'd rather have them caught now and people admit that it is a threat. It seems no one is willing to admit that it's real or that it could've happened. Also by saying that they should've 'just let them' obviously I am not advocating violence, I am simply suggesting they moved on them later rather than before. That's advocating inaction, not violence. Advocating violence would be saying that I wish they weren't caught and actually did it.

I find it humorous that you suspect me of violent tendencies and your imagination runs wild, but you are seemingly unwilling to admit that the violence that could've resulted was real.

I also find it humorous that you ignore my rather obvious point entirely: People still seem to think that since they were caught it never would've happened. You're wrong. If they weren't caught it probably would've happened, headlines would've been much worse and no one could sit here and say that heightened security is just a Bush-bot move.

.

[Black Dog]

Walkom - and you - both fall into the Hollywood trap of thinking terrorists are sinister, cunning men of intellect with black belts, experts in 18 different weapons and 10 different languages.

At this level, they're nothing but punks with anti-social atttidues. The people who made up the FLQ were not geniuses, nor were those who started the Baader Meinhoff gang, or many others. You don't have to be a genius to mix fertlizer and alcohol, rent a truck, park it next to a building, and then drive away. It doesn't take genius or education. It just takes a lack of care or respect for human life.

How did the evil geniuses who hijacked the planes on 911 spend their last evening? At a strip club oggling girls - no doubt looking forward to the next day when they'd be given their virgins after ascenting to heaven. Were they shrewd, sophisticated men? Hardly.

First, straw man aside, no one says a terrorist has to be a genius to pull off a successful attack. But these guys didn't have a plan, and didn't have a clue.

doubt these guys put much thought into things beyond "We are defending Allah against the wicked, sinful, godless westerners!" But I doubt the ones who destroyed the World Trade Centre were any more capable of sophisticated thinking.

Every war needs cannon fodder, hopefully cannon fodder who are dumb and will eagerly crowd forward to die for the cause. If you can convince them they'll be heroes and immediately to go heaven to sit at Allah's right hand and be gifted with scores of virgins, well, hey, good on you.

But cannon fodder are still very dangerous. As the WTC demonstrated so clearly. A cube van filled with explosives driven under the Peace Tower in Ottawa would certainly have caused immense damage, and probably brought the tower down. A cube van filled with men with automatic weapons pulling up the members entrance, guarded by a pair of unarmed security guards (which is about forty feet down a wide, shallow flight of stairs from the main entrance to the House of Commons chamber) would almost certainly penetrate the House and result in the deaths and injuries of many MPs and cabinet ministers.

So who's the mastermind, then? Who came up with this briliant plan? Fact is, it suits your partisan interests to pump up the threat these doofus' posed as much as possible, no matter how ludicrous their plans or bumbling their execution. The fact you're citing 9-11 in this situiation when the two are apples and oranges shows that you're reaching.

Agaim: no one's saying a bumbler or an idiot can't be dangerous. But that depends largely on the circumstances. The picture that's been painted so far doesn't seem to support that conclusion.

[August1991]

Quoting the wife of the ringleader, Qayyum Jamal,

Parents have the RIGHT to informed choice in the material being taught to and graded upon their children, especially those parents who fall under the protection of the Policy’s definition of Creed...

There is nothing wrong with her position. Many parents of different cultures have the same objections.

Well, maybe.

But as they say, politics makes for strange bedfellows. I somehow doubt that if Stockwell Day's wife complained to a school board about gay education or how the gym teacher made her daughters wear suggestive clothing, the Left would immiediately come to Day's defence arguing that he's been a a victim of a media sting operation. Oh, the irony.

Renting a few vans is hardly out of reach for the average Canadian. The fertilizer is alleged to have cost $2000 (source) which I doubt required any extraordinary financing. I don't know how much a remote piece of land in Ontario costs. I do know that there are pieces of land in some parts of Alberta that are very inexpensive because they're unsuitable for any agricultural purpose and undesirable for most recreational purposes. What else? Some smuggled guns, some paintball guns, and some car trips out of town...

Maybe it is possible to do terrorism on the cheap and maybe I've been too exposed to government financed projects. If the RCMP truly is behind all this, I'll bet the cost overruns will make this go into 8 digits.

If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones.

This highlights a train of thinking that I see everywhere in Canada now: "It didn't happen, so it couldn't have. It never will."

Slamming planes into the WTC probably looked like a ridiculious plot too.

I have wondered the same thing. If the FBI had arrested these idiots on Sept 10, I bet the US would be in exactly the same situation as many Canadians are now. Heck, all the lunatic theories that Bush organized 9/11 almost imply that.

Israel was "attacked" in 1948, 1956 and 1967. In each case, Israel undertook a pre-emptive attack. In 1972, under heavy pressure from Washington, Israel did not undertake a pre-emptive strike so that it would be clear that Israel was not the aggressor.

I feel that there's something similar here. It's as if the bomb has to go off before some people will believe that this is for real. And even then, they'll still want to explain it by some lunatic conspiracy theory.

Walkom - and you - both fall into the Hollywood trap of thinking terrorists are sinister, cunning men of intellect with black belts, experts in 18 different weapons and 10 different languages.

Extremely good point.

Corporal Lortie entered the Quebec National Assembly and killed three people. He could have killed many more. He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and he certainly wasn't playing with a full deck.

----

Nevertheless, I'm reticent to get into this "Mecca goes postal" explanation. As the Left might say, such a theory allows the louder American leitmotiv to smother the genuine fanatical Islamic voice.

[Argus]

So who's the mastermind, then? Who came up with this briliant plan? Fact is, it suits your partisan interests to pump up the threat these doofus' posed as much as possible, no matter how ludicrous their plans or bumbling their execution. The fact you're citing 9-11 in this situiation when the two are apples and oranges shows that you're reaching.

Agaim: no one's saying a bumbler or an idiot can't be dangerous. But that depends largely on the circumstances. The picture that's been painted so far doesn't seem to support that conclusion.

I could as easily mention those two clowns in Oklahoma. Did they have anything over this batch of clowns other than time and anonymity? They might have discussed various scenarios, but it is in the nature of such groups that until they actually had their explosives and weapons they would be unlikely to really come to a hard decision as to where and when they want to attack, and plans are often not too complicated. In Oklahoma the plan was "drive there, park, leave." That doesn't require a lot of suspicious surveilance and planning sessions.

[Black Dog]

I have wondered the same thing. If the FBI had arrested these idiots on Sept 10, I bet the US would be in exactly the same situation as many Canadians are now. Heck, all the lunatic theories that Bush organized 9/11 almost imply that.

I could as easily mention those two clowns in Oklahoma. Did they have anything over this batch of clowns other than time and anonymity? They might have discussed various scenarios, but it is in the nature of such groups that until they actually had their explosives and weapons they would be unlikely to really come to a hard decision as to where and when they want to attack, and plans are often not too complicated. In Oklahoma the plan was "drive there, park, leave." That doesn't require a lot of suspicious surveilance and planning sessions.

Corporal Lortie entered the Quebec National Assembly and killed three people. He could have killed many more. He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and he certainly wasn't playing with a full deck.

It's not particularily difficult to kill a lot of people. I'm not exactly confident these guys could have managed that, but I'll concede that would be a possibility. But really: so what? If these guys and terrorists of this nature are threats to people and property, then they should be dealt with (as they are being dealt with). One thing they are not, though, is a threat to our "way of life etc etc."

[Charles Anthony]

Quoting the wife of the ringleader, Qayyum Jamal,

Parents have the RIGHT to informed choice in the material being taught to and graded upon their children, especially those parents who fall under the protection of the Policy’s definition of Creed...

There is nothing wrong with her position. Many parents of different cultures have the same objections.

Well, maybe.

What do you mean by "maybe"? I am curious to understand when parents would NOT have the right to such an informed choice. Please explain the "maybe" cases.

But as they say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Indeed. It also makes for strange questioning of who should have rights and who should not.

I somehow doubt that if Stockwell Day's wife complained to a school board about gay education or how the gym teacher made her daughters wear suggestive clothing, the Left would immiediately come to Day's defence arguing that he's been a a victim of a media sting operation. Oh, the irony.

I would bet that you are right. The Left would likely laugh at her and humiliate her and call her a bible-thumper and even deny her the right to complain much like the wife of the ringleader, Qayyum Jama's wife's right to complain is questioned. I agree.

However, both women's rights to complain to a school board are equal rights. Oh, yeah, nobody has any rights except for those "rights granted by society", I forgot!

[killjoy]

Ever since the conservatives took over (I mentioned this in another thread) there has been a pr blitz on our military. Soon after they got in office, on tv and in the other media, the ads for the military increased dramaticly. Can't recall the last time CBC played an canadian Forces commercial every break. Heck I was watching a hockey game with friends and some of them commented the same thing. Ever commercial break there was an ad for our military. This was about 2 months ago now.

This is complete misinterpretation, misrepresentation and plain false. You cannot make statements like this without a relative comparison. By relative comparison of the Liberals who kept the early 'sharp edge' stages of Canadian involvement in Afghanistan (Tora Bora et.al.) silent/secret one might conclude falsely that things have changed thanks to Harper. Even the press gets in on this. Unsuspecting readers never clue into this but so often Canadian forces are reported as 'coalition forces' when there was bloodshed. 'Canadian troops' on the other hand, hand out candy. I need not prove this phenomenon I simply need to point out the vast number of Canadians who thought we were on a 'peacekeeping' mission until Harper showed up. The mission(s) has never changed. The mission has changed names - 3-4 times now - but the mission itself has never changed.

I also point out again that Martin increased the military budget and gave it a one-time influx of 10 billion $, most of which was spent upgrading/repairing and then the left-overs dumped on the JTF2 specifically, as he highlighted, because of the 'war on terror'. No one called him a Bush-bot.

Now all of a sudden, and thanks to some straight-up disinformation and fear mongering by the press, everyone is under the impression that there's a 'PR Blitz' going on. There isn't. Just because suddenly things that were always going on are being mentioned in the press doesn't mean there's a PR Blitz. Add to the fact that one of the CF missions in Afghanistan (which was known, planned and committed to long before last Christmas) is a dangerous one and well, what can I say, if you haven't been paying attention, as liberals are likely to do while there is a Liberal government, one might be tempted the feel 'the change in the air'. The only change in the air is people are hearing about it, and against all of the facts (all of this was going on before the PC's came in) people are apt to believe it's all about Harper and it ain't.

You can scream Harper over and over again and it doesnt change the FACT that the Liberals set in motion the current missions in Afghanistan long ago. Just because the press decided it was in your best interest to report about one thing when the Liberals are in office and another thing when Harper gets in doesn't change that.

.

[killjoy]

I think the reason we are seeing all the points you made is the Conservatives are acknowledging the threat of Terrorism against Canada is real while the Liberals hid it away as if it never existed..

Exactly. That's exactly how it is. And they kept it quiet and pretended it never existed, why? Because they know:

A: it's the right decision.

B: Most of their supporters wouldn't approve.

.

[kuzadd]

but were you scared? I'll bet you were?

http://www.thestar.com/columnists/article/414859

Once labelled Canada's first homegrown, Islamist terror plot, the case of the so-called Toronto 18 is quietly melting away.

With yesterday's decision to stay charges against four more of those that it had once labelled dangerous terrorists, the federal government is now admitting that it never had a serious case against almost half of the men and youths charged two years ago.

So far, the Crown has stayed charges against seven of the 18 Toronto-area Muslim males. While technically, that means it could re-lay charges within a year, legal experts call such a move unlikely.

let the lawsuits begin!!!!

ADDENDUM:

This was the Opening Post of the thread: The incredible shrinking terror case, or in other words, you've been duped

now merged into the this previous thread.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Charles Anthony
merged thread

[buffycat]

Funny thing, that no one has commented on this rapidly disintegrating trial.

The 'Toronto 18' (ohhh scary scary) has now become what - the Toronto 11? Any bets on when this will be reduced even further? How about the Toronto 1? Or maybe 0?

Canadians should be outraged - for this is either a messed up investigation - poor police work, lost evidence, unreliable informants - or this was an outright set up and entrapment to the nth degree, employing a self admitted coke head to act as agent provocateur.

Any way one looks at this, it stinks.

Useful only to induce fear in the brain dead herd of the masses. With this publication ban in effect I guess the prosecution figures they may be able to 'save' a little face, and not expose to the public what an absolute mess the whole thing is.

So.. where are all these posters who were so quick to jump on the 'ahhhh terrorists under my pillow' bandwagon?? Hmmm?

LOL

[mikedavid00]

for this is either a messed up investigation - poor police work, lost evidence, unreliable informants

We live in Canada. We do nothing right.

If I was held THAT long without being charged, I would be looking for compensation also.

There's a line between reasonable and unreasonable. 10 days is my maximum of 'reasonable'

[madmax]

We live in Canada. We do nothing right.

Whether or not Canada can do anything, the CPC is expected to play to their market. And if they are innocent, they will deal with it later...

But this guys political career is finished, and the riding will not be a CPC hold.

This view was reinforced when then Liberal MP Wajid Khan (he's now a Conservative) told reporters that he had once heard Jamal at a mosque badmouthing Canada's troops in Afghanistan

[Regulus de Leo]

We live in Canada. We do nothing right.

If I was held THAT long without being charged, I would be looking for compensation also.

There's a line between reasonable and unreasonable. 10 days is my maximum of 'reasonable'

They WERE charged. The charges were stayed. They were held without bail.

[kuzadd]

We live in Canada. We do nothing right.

If I was held THAT long without being charged, I would be looking for compensation also.

There's a line between reasonable and unreasonable. 10 days is my maximum of 'reasonable'

they were charged, but not convicted of anything at all.

why? cause there wasn't any evidence after 2 years of surveillance?

but actually there is even more to that one, then meets the eye, cause all charges were stayed against these men, previously, at the preliminary hearing.

with two informants leading the show, one who was paid 370,000 dollars and one whom it is alleged was paid 4 million dollars. now that's tax money well spent.!

Wajid Khan seems to be an opportunist, and Harper clearly wanted the opportunity he was offering.

The people were held without conviction for 17 months in solitary confinement, many are claiming beatings and abuse.

The law suits will commence.

but, some of you were so scared, you jumped on the good ship "all muslims are terrorists" and sailed away without a thought!

and that's the problem, no thinking!

Edited April 18, 2008 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Funny thing, that no one has commented on this rapidly disintegrating trial.

The 'Toronto 18' (ohhh scary scary) has now become what - the Toronto 11? Any bets on when this will be reduced even further? How about the Toronto 1? Or maybe 0?

Canadians should be outraged - for this is either a messed up investigation - poor police work, lost evidence, unreliable informants - or this was an outright set up and entrapment to the nth degree, employing a self admitted coke head to act as agent provocateur.

Any way one looks at this, it stinks.

Useful only to induce fear in the brain dead herd of the masses. With this publication ban in effect I guess the prosecution figures they may be able to 'save' a little face, and not expose to the public what an absolute mess the whole thing is.

So.. where are all these posters who were so quick to jump on the 'ahhhh terrorists under my pillow' bandwagon?? Hmmm?

LOL

of course not, when all you believe is rhetoric and stereotypes it's hard to take a dose of reality.

perhaps it is best to recall this:

there is nothing to fear, but, fear itself.

or how about this one?

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Herman Goerring

that means just make them afraid, and you can control them!

Edited April 18, 2008 by kuzadd

[Qwerty]

Charges being stayed is not the same as charges being withdrawn.

If these 7 people get in any sort of trouble at all these charges can be brought back against them.

Also, do you guys know what these other 11 are doing?

They each have their own counsel(legal aid I might add, so we are footing the bill!) and there are 26 million pages of evidence, that's why it is taking so long to bring this to trial. They are doing this on purpose so they can appeal and say that the failed to get a timely trial. It's all a game.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Qwerty

[kuzadd]

Charges being stayed is not the same as charges being withdrawn.

If these 7 people get in any sort of trouble at all these charges can be brought back against them.

Also, do you guys know what these other 11 are doing?

They each have their own counsel(legal aid I might add, so we are footing the bill!) and there are 26 million pages of evidence, that's why it is taking so long to bring this to trial. They are doing this on purpose so they can appeal and say that the failed to get a timely trial. It's all a game.

you better keep up, it's highly , highly unlikely, and charges will be brought against these people again.

they are entitled to counsel, as you or I are, since they are Canadians.

26 million pages of evidence?

and they let these people off?

simply not credible.

They are doing this on purpose???

YOu have no clue about this case do you?

It's actually been the crown that has been playing pussyfoot, under the desk.

read here and check the sources provided:

http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/...error-ring.html

Edited April 18, 2008 by kuzadd

[Qwerty]

you better keep up, it's highly , highly unlikely, and charges will be brought against these people again.

they are entitled to counsel, as you or I are, since they are Canadians.

26 million pages of evidence?

and they let these people off?

simply not credible.

They are doing this on purpose???

YOu have no clue about this case do you?

It's actually been the crown that has been playing pussyfoot, under the desk.

read here and check the sources provided:

http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/...error-ring.html

They are going after the main players not the fringes but the hardcore inner circle. These charges weren't just dreamed up. The police didn't just stumble upon these guys. They had been watching them for 6 + months and only arrested them after they had the training camp set up and attempted to buy 300 pounds ammonium nitrate.

There were also a lot of informants on this case.

Yes there is that many pages of evidence. This trial is going to be very expensive to me and any others who pay taxes, so I applaud the efforts by the courts to save us some money and only going after the traitors they can put away for life.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Qwerty

[kuzadd]

They are going after the main players not the fringes but the hardcore inner circle. These charges weren't just dreamed up. The police didn't just stumble upon these guys. They had been watching them for 6 + months and only arrested them after they had the training camp set up and attempted to buy 300 pounds ammonium nitrate.

There were also a lot of informants on this case.

were there lots of informants , how many?

were they only watching for 6 plus months?

suggestion, do some reading, read any of my previous posts for starters.

this is one case I have followed,

did you read the link provided, and check the sources, or do you just think you know it all?

[Qwerty]

were there lots of informants , how many?

were they only watching for 6 plus months?

suggestion, do some reading, read any of my previous posts for starters.

this is one case I have followed,

did you read the link provided, and check the sources, or do you just think you know it all?

This is fact I am giving you sir.

When people want to kill my leader and take over my country I take notice and follow it closely. Perhaps you support terror I do not.

They are going after the main players not the fringes but the hardcore inner circle. These charges weren't just dreamed up. The police didn't just stumble upon these guys. They had been watching them for 6 + months and only arrested them after they had the training camp set up and attempted to buy 300 pounds ammonium nitrate.

There were also a lot of informants on this case.

Yes there is that many pages of evidence. This trial is going to be very expensive to me and any others who pay taxes, so I applaud the efforts by the courts to save us some money and only going after the traitors they can put away for life.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Qwerty

[kuzadd]

This is fact I am giving you sir.

When people want to kill my leader and take over my country I take notice and follow it closely. Perhaps you support terror I do not.

They are going after the main players not the fringes but the hardcore inner circle. These charges weren't just dreamed up. The police didn't just stumble upon these guys. They had been watching them for 6 + months and only arrested them after they had the training camp set up and attempted to buy 300 pounds ammonium nitrate.

There were also a lot of informants on this case.

Yes there is that many pages of evidence. This trial is going to be very expensive to me and any others who pay taxes, so I applaud the efforts by the courts to save us some money and only going after the traitors they can put away for life.

you aren't giving me facts, your giving me fiction, and it is fiction that you believe.

and when you say things such as this

Perhaps you support terror I do not.

I thank-you for demonstrating your weakness and lack of knowledge, which causes you to resort to smear name-calling, smear/name-calling is always used by the weak.

Edited April 18, 2008 by kuzadd

[Qwerty]

Which part of this is fiction?

They are going after the main players not the fringes but the hardcore inner circle. These charges weren't just dreamed up. The police didn't just stumble upon these guys. They had been watching them for 6 + months and only arrested them after they had the training camp set up and attempted to buy 300 pounds ammonium nitrate.

There were also a lot of informants on this case.

Yes there is that many pages of evidence. This trial is going to be very expensive to me and any others who pay taxes, so I applaud the efforts by the courts to save us some money and only going after the traitors they can put away for life.

[kuzadd]

Which part of this is fiction?

They are going after the main players not the fringes but the hardcore inner circle. These charges weren't just dreamed up. The police didn't just stumble upon these guys. They had been watching them for 6 + months and only arrested them after they had the training camp set up and attempted to buy 300 pounds ammonium nitrate.

There were also a lot of informants on this case.

Yes there is that many pages of evidence. This trial is going to be very expensive to me and any others who pay taxes, so I applaud the efforts by the courts to save us some money and only going after the traitors they can put away for life.

do you think if you

keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."

gwb

Edited April 18, 2008 by kuzadd