Copper, Transit Workers & Bicycles

[Charles Anthony]

Ultimately, if we take property rights for granted or we do not enforce them, we are all poorer for it.

[Wilber]

If we run 220V through everything large made of copper, that could help by killing two birds with one jolt so to speak.

[August1991]

Exactly. There seems to be hundreds of much easier things to steal than a live high voltage line.

Starting with pennies. It takes about 300 pennies to get a kilo and a kilo of copper sells for about $6 now. So, thieves would be better off collecting pennies and melting them down.

This story is less evidence of the stupidity of thieves and more evidence of how every member of a species seeks an angle or a way to make a living. With six billion people scouring the earth looking for a profit opportunity, it's a surprise there is not more mayhem.

Going back to the OP, the trick in any successful social system is to ensure that an individual seeking a benefit (profit opportunity) does not cause general mayhem. At the risk of thread drift, this is the general weakness in Canada's health system.

[Remiel]

Actually, if your comment about pennies is true, you have just highlighted a extremely dangerous flaw in our currency, August. One of the simplest rules there is is that the face value of money absolutely MUST exceed the material value. If that is not the case, we now have a HUGE problem.

[August1991]

Actually, if your comment about pennies is true, you have just highlighted a extremely dangerous flaw in our currency, August. One of the simplest rules there is is that the face value of money absolutely MUST exceed the material value. If that is not the case, we now have a HUGE problem.

For the last few years, Canadian pennies are made of nickel with thin copper plating. I suspect the pennies minted before about 1997 (when they were solid copper) may soon disappear from circulation as people melt them for their copper value. That happened to the old pure silver dimes and quarters when the price of silver went up.

There's a market in silver jewellry but I don't if there's much of a market in copper jewellry. It seems strange to talk of copper as a precious metal. For example, I can't imagine a woman being terribly impressed with a suitor who offers a copper ring - maybe if they're both plumbers.

[Charles Anthony]

It seems strange to talk of copper as a precious metal. For example, I can't imagine a woman being terribly impressed with a suitor who offers a copper ring - maybe if they're both plumbers.

You are just being funny.

Copper IS a precious metal. Everything is relative. The price of copper has gone up by about 40% last year.

[geoffrey]

Actually, if your comment about pennies is true, you have just highlighted a extremely dangerous flaw in our currency, August. One of the simplest rules there is is that the face value of money absolutely MUST exceed the material value. If that is not the case, we now have a HUGE problem.

For the last few years, Canadian pennies are made of nickel with thin copper plating. I suspect the pennies minted before about 1997 (when they were solid copper) may soon disappear from circulation as people melt them for their copper value. That happened to the old pure silver dimes and quarters when the price of silver went up.

How much does it cost to melt copper? I suspect it takes more than your kitchen frying pan and stove. I'm not convinced the prize would be worth it.

[August1991]

How much does it cost to melt copper? I suspect it takes more than your kitchen frying pan and stove. I'm not convinced the prize would be worth it.

Geoffrey, there are 6 billion of us on the planet. God knows what has been tried to make a buck. Take that as a lesson in humility.

Anyway, there's a simple way to test my hypothesis. Check your change and look at the years on the pennies. How many old pennies do you see now?

----

Here's an interesting question though. Going back to the OP, I argued that the people who stole a copper roof from a Quebec church (or bronze plaques) impose a much greater cost on society than the value of the copper they steal. So, if people take pennies and melt them down, do they do the same? That is, if I melt down $300 in pennies to get $600 of copper, do I impose a similar cost on society?

If the church has to replace the roof, the Mint has to replace the pennies.

[geoffrey]

Anyway, there's a simple way to test my hypothesis. Check your change and look at the years on the pennies.

I have 10 sitting on my desk:

4x2006

2004

2x2002

2001

2000

1997

Very interesting...

[blueblood]

How much does it cost to melt copper? I suspect it takes more than your kitchen frying pan and stove. I'm not convinced the prize would be worth it.

Geoffrey, there are 6 billion of us on the planet. God knows what has been tried to make a buck. Take that as a lesson in humility.

Anyway, there's a simple way to test my hypothesis. Check your change and look at the years on the pennies. How many old pennies do you see now?

----

Here's an interesting question though. Going back to the OP, I argued that the people who stole a copper roof from a Quebec church (or bronze plaques) impose a much greater cost on society than the value of the copper they steal. So, if people take pennies and melt them down, do they do the same? That is, if I melt down $300 in pennies to get $600 of copper, do I impose a similar cost on society?

If the church has to replace the roof, the Mint has to replace the pennies.

I think pennies are the most produced coin, they always seem to come out. I also know that a lot of people hoard them in cheez whiz jars to get exchanged for paper money, or they just sit around and collect dust. Anyhow, society is already paying a cost for people hoarding/discarding their pennies, the old ones might as well be melted down. To answer your question I'd have to say no.

[geoffrey]

How much does it cost to make a penny? More than a penny?

[Riverwind]

How much does it cost to make a penny? More than a penny?

I think this site will put an end to the debate. It appears August is right.

[blueblood]

How much does it cost to make a penny? More than a penny?

I think this site will put an end to the debate. It appears August is right.

Somewhere some old Ukrainian baba is gonna make a fortune...

[Charles Anthony]

That is, if I melt down $300 in pennies to get $600 of copper, do I impose a similar cost on society?

No, because you have the right to keep those thousands of pennies sitting in your jar doing nothing for ever and ever. Amen.

Whatever cost is incurred by the Mint to replace your pennies is imposed by the central bankers themselves and not you. The Mint could solve that problem by striking pennies with a different metal or paper or not at all.

Comedic arguments of how it is "illegal" to deface currency are boring since coins are a drop in the bucket compared to how we exchange money.

Furthermore, the impact of injecting $600 of copper into the copper market is so dissipated that the question is unanswerable. How is melting down your pennies different from discovering a copper mine and making more copper available to the copper market? and polluting the environment in the process?

[August1991]

That is, if I melt down $300 in pennies to get $600 of copper, do I impose a similar cost on society?

No, because you have the right to keep those thousands of pennies sitting in your jar doing nothing for ever and ever. Amen.

I think the point is that the Mint has to replace the pennies that people are melting down now (just like the Church has to replace the roof). The cost of doing that is greater than any profit the coin melters obtain. At least the coin melters have to "buy" the pennies - the thieves just stole the roof.

How much does it cost to make a penny? More than a penny?

I think this site will put an end to the debate. It appears August is right.

Wow, it's even worth melting down US nickels (and presumably Canadian nickels too). There's nothing cheaper than nickel so I guess they'll just have to make them thinner or smaller.

This argument from another thread seems relevant here:

I think we should simply abolish the penny. With inflation, the Canadian one cent isn't worth anything anymore. They're a hassle to count, and unload from purses and pockets. The Mint has to produce and ship rolls of the damn things. Shops and banks have to keep them and count them. Thousands of shopclerks across Canada are counting the damn things everyday. For what? All prices should be rounded up to a nickel.

[Charles Anthony]

I think the point is that the Mint has to replace the pennies that people are melting down now (just like the Church has to replace the roof). The cost of doing that is greater than any profit the coin melters obtain. At least the coin melters have to "buy" the pennies - the thieves just stole the roof.

For the purposes of relating it to stealing the roof (thief gets less benefit compared to cost of replacing) analogy, I understand.

However, you are not responsible for making sure there are enough pennies in circulation any more than you are responsible for making sure you do not take the last banana in the grocery store. What if somebody wants a banana after you take the last one? what is the cost to society?

All prices should be rounded up to a nickel.

Retailers can do that now on their own. We should encourage it.

[August1991]

Actually, if your comment about pennies is true, you have just highlighted a extremely dangerous flaw in our currency, August. One of the simplest rules there is is that the face value of money absolutely MUST exceed the material value. If that is not the case, we now have a HUGE problem.

Exactly.

A US nickel (five cent coin) weighs 5 grams so there are 200 nickels ($10) in a kilogram. The commodity price of nickel (the metal) now is about $28 a kilo on world markets. (Copper is about $7 a kilo on world markets.) IOW, it's worth melting five cent coins down for their metal value.

The case of pennies is a little more difficult but even more profitable (one penny weighs about 3 grams). Pennies are now primarily made of nickel with a copper coating so while pennies are more profitable for their content, an amateur smelter would have to separate the copper from the nickel.

Has anyone noticed that nickels (or pennies) are rare in pocket change?

Here are charts for the price of nickel. Look at the five, ten and fifteen year charts.

Zinc, lead and aluminium are cheaper than copper. Maybe we should have plastic coins, they would be cheapest of all.

[bush_cheney2004]

A US nickel (five cent coin) weighs 5 grams so there are 200 nickels ($10) in a kilogram. The commodity price of nickel (the metal) now is about $28 a kilo on world markets. (Copper is about $7 a kilo on world markets.) IOW, it's worth melting five cent coins down for their metal value....

No big rush to melt US nickels, unless they be wartime issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_(Unite...in)#Metal_value

Edited January 19, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[August1991]

From link:

As of December 14, 2007, the value of the metal in the coin has reached 5.5759 cents, a 1.11518 premium over its face value,[4] due to the rising costs of copper and nickel[5] against a falling U.S. Dollar. In an attempt to avoid losing large quantities of circulating nickels to melting, the United States Mint introduced new interim rules on December 14, 2006 criminalizing the melting and export of pennies and nickels. Violators of these rules can be punished with a fine of up to $10,000, five years imprisonment, or both.[6]

Hmmm.

[August1991]

Bump.

I'm now abroad, and looking at various societies (and the prices of commodities), it reminded me of this OP. Not!

I recently started to watch the HBO series "The Wire" and in Season 1, I saw the copper pipe theft episode. Then, I was reminded.

----

Why are Canadians so rich? Despite our differences, why do we generally seem to avoid these awful, costly debates?

Edited July 12, 2012 by August1991

[Peter F]

Bump.

I'm now abroad, and looking at various societies (and the prices of commodities), it reminded me of this OP. Not!

I recently started to watch the HBO series "The Wire" and in Season 1, I saw the copper pipe theft episode. Then, I was reminded.

----

Granny is not melting copper pennies

1997 to present*

Composition: 98.4% zinc, 1.6% copper plating

Weight (g): 2.25

Diameter (mm): 19.05

Thickness (mm): 1.45

2000 to date*

Composition: 94% steel, 1.5% nickel, 4.5% copper plating

Weight (g): 2.35

Diameter (mm): 19.05

Thickness (mm): 1.45

[August1991]

Granny is not melting copper pennies

1997 to present*

Composition: 98.4% zinc, 1.6% copper plating

Weight (g): 2.25

Diameter (mm): 19.05

Thickness (mm): 1.45

2000 to date*

Composition: 94% steel, 1.5% nickel, 4.5% copper plating

Weight (g): 2.35

Diameter (mm): 19.05

Thickness (mm): 1.45

What's your point, Peter F?

Is your point that there's money to be made in melting old copper pennies? If that's your point, then you have just proved (proven?) that ordinary Canadians (ordinary people) are greedy, smart.

Or Peter F, is your point that Stephen Harper was stupid to get rid of the penny since it in fact has more copper now?

I'm confused. Are you a anti-Harper player, member of Team A?

----

More broadly, Peter, you miss my broader point.

A society can argue about fairness, equality, who gets what, rich/poor. Or another society can argue about making a better society.

Similarly, in some families, kids argue about wills, who owns what, and who gets the Bentley. In other families, kids make their own way.

In the ideal family/society, one kid gets the Bentley, without argument. And then shares, wisely. That's my ideal/civilized society, but admittedly it's not easy to ensure.

Edited July 18, 2012 by August1991

[Peter F]

What's your point, Peter F?

Is your point that there's money to be made in melting old copper pennies? If that's your point, then you have just proved (proven?) that ordinary Canadians (ordinary people) are greedy, smart.

If ordinary Canadians (or even extrordinary Canadians) are melting pennies for the copper content then they may be greedy but most certainly are not smart since the copper content of the penny since 1997 is only on the plating.

Or Peter F, is your point that Stephen Harper was stupid to get rid of the penny since it in fact has more copper now?

I'm confused. Are you a anti-Harper player, member of Team A?

wtf are you talking about?

----

More broadly, Peter, you miss my broader point.

A society can argue about fairness, equality, who gets what, rich/poor. Or another society can argue about making a better society.

Similarly, in some families, kids argue about wills, who owns what, and who gets the Bentley. In other families, kids make their own way.

In the ideal family/society, one kid gets the Bentley, without argument. And then shares, wisely. That's my ideal/civilized society, but admittedly it's not easy to ensure.

what the hell are you talking about?