Canada's Largest Union Votes to Boycott Israel

[Argus]

This isn't "anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism" but about fairness.

Don't make me vomit. As if fairness had a single thing to do with any of the people who hate Israel.

Because I denounce Israeli atrocities, I'm an anti-Semite? (I agree that atrocities are happening on both sides by the way)

And yet, no one is calling for boycotts against Arabs. Not anyone. Ever.

Is Israel the world's worst violator of human rights? Listening to the UN and political newsgroups, boards and sites you'd certainly think so. In reality, they're pretty middling compared to most of the world, and very small fry indeed compared to the likes of China, North Korea and Iran, or even India. But all the attention gets focused on Israel. All the accusations on Israel. All the media attention on Israel. Tens of thousands of men, women, and children are killed in political re-education camps in North Korea every year, but where are the international denunciations?

Is it all ant-semitism? I don't think so. I think a lot of it is an indication of the shallowness of our society and its media. We see media pictures and hear stories from Israel on a daily basis. Why? Well, because it's a relatively safe and comfortable place for international reporters who can operate in a highly technological society with few restrictions. So the mainstream media - the "if it bleeds it leads" crowd, is a permanent fixture. Nastier countries won't even let them in, and will boot them out the instant they say anything bad. Others are so dangerous they'd be killed, either by the government or various rebel, guerrila and militia groups. So the media ignores them. So the public ignores them. Since we don't see daily pictures of slaughtered North Koreans or slaughtered Chinese, no one is out launching boycotts or demanding action - because, as I said, mostly, people are shallow and are reacting to a shallow media and its incessent coverage of Israel.

[Argus]

Anti-Zionist or Anti-Isreal IS NOT THE SAME AS anti-semitism.

/blame canada.

No, but it can be.

[Wilber]

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything as individuals. Unions were founded on the understanding that all its members may not be unanimous on every issue. But they're run (somewhat) democratically, so if members don't like the direction their union is taking, they can get involved and get their voice heard. If they don't want to get involved, then I guess they can rant about it in online forums.

In most collective agreements payment of union dues is mandatory whether you support the union or not. If I'm Jewish and am represented by CUPE can I withold my dues in protest to their boycott against Israel? No, I can't.

Some democracy.

Quite right. I imagine there is a large number of Jews who are forced to be CUPE members because of where they work. Many probably have friends and relatives in Israel. How are they supposed to feel about a union that is supposed to be theirs as much as any other member. Unions themselves may operate in a democratic manner but having to belong to one and pay it a percentage of your wages to be employed at a particular company, is definitely not democratic.

In my experience with union shops, even if you decline to join the union you are still required to pay dues on the premise that you benefit from anything the union achieves. That is why unions should not involve themselves in political or social matters that are not directly related to representing their members.

[GostHacked]

Anti-Zionist or Anti-Isreal IS NOT THE SAME AS anti-semitism.

/blame canada.

No, but it can be.

It can be, however....I may hate Isreal but that does not mean I hate Jews. I may hate A single Jew for doing something I did not agree with, does that make me an anti-semite? No.

Listen to the person before you call them an anti-semite.

Reminds me of a guy I used to work with. A Czech, nice guy fun to work with, but he always ribbed me about my german heritage. Since my Opa fought on the Nazi side during WWII, he holds no hatred towards jews in general. So this guy Martin would always say 'you jew killer ect, it was kind of funny at first but then it got annoying. Yah yah yah ect. So he said to me one say, you know you guys killed all those jews, you jew hater, killer ect.. my retort to him in front of everyone else on the crew at the time "Yeah well, we thought they were Czechs." He never talked to me again in any way shape or form.

[lost&outofcontrol]

And yet, no one is calling for boycotts against Arabs. Not anyone. Ever.

Again, am I an anti-Semite for condemning Israel's human rights violation?

Is Israel the world's worst violator of human rights? Listening to the UN and political newsgroups, boards and sites you'd certainly think so. In reality, they're pretty middling compared to most of the world, and very small fry indeed compared to the likes of China, North Korea and Iran, or even India. But all the attention gets focused on Israel. All the accusations on Israel. All the media attention on Israel. Tens of thousands of men, women, and children are killed in political re-education camps in North Korea every year, but where are the international denunciations?

Please, Israel is right up there with the countries you mention. From the mass murder in the Lebanon invasion to daily incursion into Palestinian land by Israeli armored convoys. You saw Black dog's (I think it's him) links to amnesty international describing children in a freaking class room being murder for pure fun by sharp shooters.

There are UN resolutions condemning human rights violations against all those countries. Every single one gets front page news every once in a while.

[Argus]

Anti-Zionist or Anti-Isreal IS NOT THE SAME AS anti-semitism.

/blame canada.

No, but it can be.

It can be, however....I may hate Isreal but that does not mean I hate Jews. I may hate A single Jew for doing something I did not agree with, does that make me an anti-semite? No.

Listen to the person before you call them an anti-semite.

But why do you hate Israel? Do you hate India? Do you hate Syria? Do you hate Egypt? Do you hate China? Do you hate Morocco? What does it take to cause you to hate a country?

[Argus]

Is Israel the world's worst violator of human rights? Listening to the UN and political newsgroups, boards and sites you'd certainly think so. In reality, they're pretty middling compared to most of the world, and very small fry indeed compared to the likes of China, North Korea and Iran, or even India. But all the attention gets focused on Israel. All the accusations on Israel. All the media attention on Israel. Tens of thousands of men, women, and children are killed in political re-education camps in North Korea every year, but where are the international denunciations?

Please, Israel is right up there with the countries you mention.

Israel has been the victim of unrelenting attack and terrorism for almost sixty years. Any nation subjected to that sort of unceasing hostility is going to get a little harsh with the neighbours. Nevertheless, their treatment of prisoners is leagues ahead of the likes of brutal regimes like Iran and China, or even India, where Indian troops have long engaged in mass attacks on the civilian populations of rebel areas. As for their treatment of the Palestinian population at large, there are many people who could only fantasise about being treated so well. I mean, I don't see anyone out there demanding a boycott of Russia for their brutal treatment of Chechins. I don't see condemnations from the UN or from all the weepy, hand-wringing liberal leftists in Europe or Canada.

From the mass murder in the Lebanon invasion

Which mass-murder would that be? The one which proved to be an invention?

to daily incursion into Palestinian land by Israeli armored convoys.

Which people in Canada would be demanding if we were subjected to the same kind of terrorism and rocket attacks as the Israelis have been for so many decades.

You saw Black dog's (I think it's him) links to amnesty international describing children in a freaking class room being murder for pure fun by sharp shooters.

I saw zero evidence, just wild assed accusations.

There are UN resolutions condemning human rights violations against all those countries. Every single one gets front page news every once in a while.

Bullshit. There are few or no UN resolutions condemning most of the world's most vicious human rights abusers, and they rarely ever get any attention for their abuse of human rights. The UN condemns Israel on something like a weekly basis. That is one of the reasons the so-called UN Human Rights Commision was disbanded. It was full of human rights abusers, and spent a third of all its time criticising Israel.

It also showed its true colours when it voted to remove the term "anti-semitism" from an earlier resolution on "racism, xenophobia and related intolerance."

.... Deeply concerned that, despite continuing efforts, contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, any form of discrimination against, inter alia, Blacks, Arabs and Muslims, xenophobia, Negrophobia, anti-Semitism and related intolerance persist and are even growing in magnitude, incessantly adopting new forms, including tendencies to establish policies based on racial, religious, ethnic, cultural and national superiority or exclusivity,

I don't think it's unfair to say that the United Nations itself is an anti-semitic organization.

The UN and the Jews

UN bias against Israel

[Guest Warwick Green]

CUPE's boycott is misguided and absurd

The Gazette

Published: Wednesday, May 31, 2006

It's very odd. Of all the things the Ontario wing of CUPE, Canada's largest union, could have chosen to come out swinging against - or for - it picked on Israel. At its annual meeting on the weekend, CUPE voted - unanimously, no less, with all 896 members voting yes unquestioningly - to join an international boycott campaign against Israel.

Sid Ryan, CUPE's president, pre-empted potential accusations of racism by saying it was "not an attack on Jewish people," but rather on the state of Israel's Palestinian policies. Fair enough. It's perfectly fair and healthy to disagree with Israeli policies without being tarred as anti-Semitic. Many Israelis are vigorous, vocal critics of their own government - which, incidentally, is more than you're allowed to do in Iran, Saudi Arabia or China, for example....

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...3d-d7f358527211

[BubberMiley]

Yes it is isn't it.What is it about Israel that the left hates so much - maybe its because indirectly it enables them to vent their hatred towards the U.S.

I consider myself on the left and have nothing against Israel per se (their women are very hot), but I don't care much for how they've treated Palistineans and gotten us in to this mess we're in.

But one thing I've often wondered, what is it about Israel that the right loves so much?

[scribblet]

Why the double standards, why no condmenation of Palestinian terrorists etc. etc. etc.

Maybe a better question would be: Why does the world resent this speck of land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean?

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/G...20040718.shtml (Ihad this saved but the link doesn't work now)

Yet if one were to read world press accounts or daily condemnations from the United Nations or the recent decision of the ICJ criticizing the construction of the fence, you might conclude that Israel is a world power intent on destabilizing Middle East affairs.

Why, it might well be postulated, does the world resent this speck of land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean?

Although my comments are speculative, I suspect they could be borne out empirically if historical accounts were fair and objective.

Israel is a thorn in the side of the Arab world because it is a remarkable technological phantasmagoria. Almost every Israeli is engaged in a software scheme. The Jews in this arid nation have made the deserts bloom; they have converted brain power into technical marvels and consequent wealth.

By contrast every nearby Arab nation is dysfunctional. Their governments are tyrannical; the people are poor and uneducated and local officials have been unwilling to convert oil revenue into social benefits.

Resentment is the natural result of this contrast. Afterall, Israel has all of the geographic disadvantages of its neighbors and it doesn't have any oil fields. Yet it prospers, while others falter."

Oh, and BTW, Egypt, which owned Gaza, waged an "illegal" war with Israel in 1967 which Egypt lost, along with Sinai and Gaza.

Jordan, which owned the West Bank also waged an "illegal" war with Israel in 1967 losing that one, and the West Bank.

Syria, which owned the Golan Heights, waged an "illegal" war with Israel in 1967and also lost, along with Golan Heights.

Under International Law, Israel was entitled to take these lands which is why the borders of the West Bank were deemed to be "contested" by the U.N. Later, via negotiations Israel gave back 93% of that land , but fat lot of goo that did Israel, because Egypt, Jordan and Syria started another "illegal" war against Israel in 1973. - And here its always Israel being condemned.

[Argus]

Yes it is isn't it.What is it about Israel that the left hates so much - maybe its because indirectly it enables them to vent their hatred towards the U.S.

I consider myself on the left and have nothing against Israel per se (their women are very hot), but I don't care much for how they've treated Palistineans and gotten us in to this mess we're in.

But one thing I've often wondered, what is it about Israel that the right loves so much?

Isreal is a democratic, western oriented nation surrounded by vast numbers of anti-democratic, violent, fanatics who want to destroy them. Since the right sympathises with democracies and underdogs, we naturally gravitate towards supporting Israel.

Since the Left sympathises with people they perceive to be 'brown skinned" no matter what, they naturally gravitate towards the terrorists who want to murder all homosexuals, stone women and fornicators, and despise all other religions and racial groups.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Yes it is isn't it.What is it about Israel that the left hates so much - maybe its because indirectly it enables them to vent their hatred towards the U.S.

I consider myself on the left and have nothing against Israel per se (their women are very hot), but I don't care much for how they've treated Palistineans and gotten us in to this mess we're in.

But one thing I've often wondered, what is it about Israel that the right loves so much?

Isreal is a democratic, western oriented nation surrounded by vast numbers of anti-democratic, violent, fanatics who want to destroy them. Since the right sympathises with democracies and underdogs, we naturally gravitate towards supporting Israel.

Since the Left sympathises with people they perceive to be 'brown skinned" no matter what, they naturally gravitate towards the terrorists who want to murder all homosexuals, stone women and fornicators, and despise all other religions and racial groups.

There was a time when Israel was the darling of the left, when they were considered the "underdog" and the Palestinians considered to be a bunch of reactionary savages. But as Israel prospered and the Palestinians remained little more than rabble condoning violence the left's perception's changed and Israel became the aggressor and the Palestinans the "good guys".

That does not however excuse CUPE with its simple-minded view of the Middle-East.

[fixer1]

There was atime when the jewish people were not held in very high regard for their ethics and their loyalty to the countries that they were living in. They were portrayed by the people of these countries as the worst type of person, much like the Ferengi types are portrayed on the show Deep Space Nine. There only drive seemed to be for profit. In many countries they were never allowed to own land etc. Once these people got a homeland they defend it with a vengence and yes they have crossed the line in so many ways, that they are now the ones who are the bad guys. They would love to just take a week and put all palestinians to death, and then say genocide us, we were the ones who had genocide put on us....etc.

I do not like the jewish people I have met that are from Isreal as they are the worst at showing contempt for all others and they do believe that need show no loyalty to anyone, only to Isreal. It is a attitude that does make me upset. Yet I find my jewish friends who are here in Canada quite different. I ask this friends what they thought of the Isrealli people and they are even more upset when describing them. They do not mince words and call these people arrogant and not caring about anything but they themselves and the country Isreal.

I guess that is why we see so many people now adays saying they are against Isreal's policies and find them to be more of a threat then the rest of that area. We all know that the United Emirates of Saudi Arabia, are very two faced in what they do and yes they support most of the terrorists in and around the world. Yet we are friendly to these people because they have the oil we want. So we turn a blind eye to the problems. We pretty much gave Isreal the bomb and now they have enough to destroy much of the whole southern europe and north africa along with all if the middle east. Why do they need this ability. We know they will never agree to disarm these weapons. So it is a quagmire that we will never get away from all that we have allowed to be created in the first place.

So why would anyone be upset that a union here in Canada voices its opinion against the Isreali people and all of its current policies on the palestinian people. It is not something that we all can not see for our selves and it is only that now that this is done it will draw more attention to what many would like to just flow away without notice. I do think that this is something that does need attention and so I agree with the union or any other group who are willing to take an honest look and give an honest opinion.

[lost&outofcontrol]

That does not however excuse CUPE with its simple-minded view of the Middle-East.

If CUPE's opinion on the Middle East is simple minded for supporting the Palestinians and condeming Israel for their actions then isn't your own opinion for supporting Israel and condeming Palestinian for their action just as simple minded?

[Charles Anthony]

This thread is mixing two issues:

1) the responsibilities (I would say, misrepresentation of its members) of a labor union

2) the nitty gritty details of Israeli and Palestinian relations

I would like to propose my own boycott:

Until the two issues are separated into two different lines, I am staying out of this tangled thread!

[Wilber]

That does not however excuse CUPE with its simple-minded view of the Middle-East.

If CUPE's opinion on the Middle East is simple minded for supporting the Palestinians and condeming Israel for their actions then isn't your own opinion for supporting Israel and condeming Palestinian for their action just as simple minded?

You and Warwick as private citizens are entitled to any opinion you choose. CUPE is a labour union that represents many people in labour matters. These people have many different opinions on non labour issues and CUPE should not picking and choosing which of those opinions it represents. The only way it can represent all its members is not to get involved in these issues. Why would an organization that needs solidarity among its members to function, seek to divide them by getting involved in matters that have nothing to do with labour relations? Presuming to do so is just plain old arrogance.

[Black Dog]

Although my comments are speculative, I suspect they could be borne out empirically if historical accounts were fair and objective.

Israel is a thorn in the side of the Arab world because it is a remarkable technological phantasmagoria. Almost every Israeli is engaged in a software scheme. The Jews in this arid nation have made the deserts bloom; they have converted brain power into technical marvels and consequent wealth.

By contrast every nearby Arab nation is dysfunctional. Their governments are tyrannical; the people are poor and uneducated and local officials have been unwilling to convert oil revenue into social benefits.

Resentment is the natural result of this contrast. Afterall, Israel has all of the geographic disadvantages of its neighbors and it doesn't have any oil fields. Yet it prospers, while others falter."

etc etc.

Uh...then why was the concept of Israel opposed by people in the region (including the majority of people actually living there) in 1947? The resentment of Israel has its roots in the manner in which it was founded and the subsequent cleansing of its indingenous population. Of course, corrupt regimes have scapegoated Israel for years, but the fact

Isreal is a democratic, western oriented nation surrounded by vast numbers of anti-democratic, violent, fanatics who want to destroy them. Since the right sympathises with democracies and underdogs, we naturally gravitate towards supporting Israel.

Since the Left sympathises with people they perceive to be 'brown skinned" no matter what, they naturally gravitate towards the terrorists who want to murder all homosexuals, stone women and fornicators, and despise all other religions and racial groups.

I think the right wing fixaton with Israel is born of its twin fetishes for military power and religious zealotry. The left's antipathy toward Israel is based on the simple fact that it consistently fails to live up to the standards of a liberal democracy.

It's interesting: the parrallels with South Africa in the '70s and '80s are astonishing: a privileged minority who's entitlement is based on their race implements inhumane policies to entrench their dominance whle enjoying the knee-jerk support of the North American right due to its status as a bulwark against the dark-skinned hordes surrounding it. That certainly explains why apartheid-era South Africa and Israel got along so swimmingly (the latter kitting out the former's now defunct nuclear program) and why the same arguments used in defence of the apartheid state are still in circulation now.

[Guest Warwick Green]

That does not however excuse CUPE with its simple-minded view of the Middle-East.

If CUPE's opinion on the Middle East is simple minded for supporting the Palestinians and condeming Israel for their actions then isn't your own opinion for supporting Israel and condeming Palestinian for their action just as simple minded?

I don't recall anywhere I have said that I support Israel and condemn the Palestinians. After a 58-yr conflict they both have unclean hands. What I do object to are people who mindlessly criticize Israel without recognizing some culpability on the other side.

[scribblet]

From a letter to the editor:

CUPE's method of dealing with the "injustice" is to sign on to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's agenda. Like him, they want Israel to remove the security barrier -- the "apartheid wall" -- that protects Israelis from suicide bombers. And like him, they insist that millions of Palestinians have a "right" to "return" to Israel and transform it through sheer numbers into yet another Arab nation.

What's most disturbing is that, in the name of "human rights," Mr. Ryan and his union have been inveigled into supporting a well-orchestrated international effort, Palestinian in origin, calling for measures that would inevitably spell Israel's doom.

Mr. Ryan and his union have a right to criticize Israel, and they have a right to disagree with Israel's policies (though they haven't chosen to criticize of the policies of many other nations in the world: Sudan, Iran, China, etc.). However, CUPE does not have the right to sign the death warrant of the Jewish stat

[Black Dog]

CUPE's method of dealing with the "injustice" is to sign on to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's agenda. Like him, they want Israel to remove the security barrier -- the "apartheid wall" -- that protects Israelis from suicide bombers. And like him, they insist that millions of Palestinians have a "right" to "return" to Israel and transform it through sheer numbers into yet another Arab nation.

And yet Israel insists that any Jew anywhere has the "right of return" to Israel, regardless of whether or not they or any of their ancestors ever actually set foot there.

What's most disturbing is that, in the name of "human rights," Mr. Ryan and his union have been inveigled into supporting a well-orchestrated international effort, Palestinian in origin, calling for measures that would inevitably spell Israel's doom.

Mr. Ryan and his union have a right to criticize Israel, and they have a right to disagree with Israel's policies (though they haven't chosen to criticize of the policies of many other nations in the world: Sudan, Iran, China, etc.). However, CUPE does not have the right to sign the death warrant of the Jewish stat

I have to ask why a "Jewish state" is something worth preserving. I can think of no other liberal democratic state in the world that explicitly favours one ethno-religious group.

[BubberMiley]

I have to ask why a "Jewish state" is something worth preserving. I can think of no other liberal democratic state in the world that explicitly favours one ethno-religious group.

It kind of makes you think it isn't the liberal democracy Argus claims it is. That's why I continue to be baffled as to why the right is so enamored with it, and why they will call anyone anti-semitic who tries to bring it up.

[August1991]

This thread is mixing two issues:

1) the responsibilities (I would say, misrepresentation of its members) of a labor union

2) the nitty gritty details of Israeli and Palestinian relations

I would like to propose my own boycott:

Until the two issues are separated into two different lines, I am staying out of this tangled thread!

Very good point.

Since this is in the Federal category, I'm going to make a point about this CUPE decision. (A discussion about the Israel/Palestine conflict should rightly be in the Internatioal section.)

A small detail about this vote last Saturday seems to have gone unnoticed:

Sid Ryan, the Canadian Union of Public Employees' Ontario president, said 896 members voted unanimously at its convention in Ottawa on Saturday, to support the campaign.

CanWest

How do you get unanimity with 896 people? That's impossible unless the people are merely rubberstamping a decision from above.

Such results are "democratic" in the same way that Joseph Stalin was "elected". This whole charade says alot about how our unions operate.

[BHS]

It's interesting: the parrallels with South Africa in the '70s and '80s are astonishing: a privileged minority who's entitlement is based on their race implements inhumane policies to entrench their dominance whle enjoying the knee-jerk support of the North American right due to its status as a bulwark against the dark-skinned hordes surrounding it. That certainly explains why apartheid-era South Africa and Israel got along so swimmingly (the latter kitting out the former's now defunct nuclear program) and why the same arguments used in defence of the apartheid state are still in circulation now.

It's only astonishing if one buys all of your arguments. I don't.

As I've mentioned before, Jews and Palestinian Arabs are very closely genetically related. This is not a case of transplanted Europeans dominating put-upon locals of an entirely different genetic lineage. The Jews find their genetic ancestry springing from the area surrounding the Dead Sea. While you may get a kick out of barking about "whites" dominating "dark skinned hordes" this simply isn't the case. It is rather a case of ethnicism, which while damning (I'll admit) doesn't have the same visceral effect as accusing the nation of racism, which is why you opt for the latter. That, and the entire ME is full of ethnic strife, of which the case of the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs is but one case. But getting all hotted up about how the Hashemites mistreat their Palestinian majority isn't really your forte, is it?

So, the Jews helped South Africa build nuclear reactors, which I'll note didn't result in nuclear armed Afrikaaners. I guess they beat the Candu people in our own Government of Canada out on that contract. Which is a solid guess on my part, considering how we otherwise helped many third world governments down the nuclear proliferation road. In this regard we're certainly in no position to question Israel's choice in client states.

Also, I haven't read one, one, single defense of apartheid on any conservative blog or other website in the five years that I've reading blogs. If such defenses exist they are certainly not held by main stream conservatives. For you to throw that line in as if it were a common conservative viewpoint at the end of your post is utter bs. And hypocritical, when you consider that the opposite scenario, say, the leftist defense of Castro's Cuba and the monstrous Che Guevera, is commonplace on lefty blogs.

[Black Dog]

As I've mentioned before, Jews and Palestinian Arabs are very closely genetically related. This is not a case of transplanted Europeans dominating put-upon locals of an entirely different genetic lineage. The Jews find their genetic ancestry springing from the area surrounding the Dead Sea.

First: the "whites/dark-skined" comment was a direct response to Argus's statement that the left reflexively sides with "brown-skinned people". I'm well aware of the racial similarities between semetic peoples.

However, a sizeable chunk of Israel's population are "transplanted Europeans", be they the first immigrants from post-Holocaust Europe or their descendents, or the large number of North American, Eastern European and Russian Jews that made up the bulk of immigration since Israel's founding. Jews made up just 1/3 of the area's population in 1947: the rest were transplanted from somewhere else.

While you may get a kick out of barking about "whites" dominating "dark skinned hordes" this simply isn't the case. It is rather a case of ethnicism, which while damning (I'll admit) doesn't have the same visceral effect as accusing the nation of racism, which is why you opt for the latter.

According to Israeli law, you're eligible for full citizenship benefits if you are "the child or grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew." So you don't even have to be ethnically Jewish to benefit from Zionist policies. In a way, that's even more absurd than discriminating on skin the basis of skin colour.

That, and the entire ME is full of ethnic strife, of which the case of the Jews and the Palestinian Arabs is but one case. But getting all hotted up about how the Hashemites mistreat their Palestinian majority isn't really your forte, is it?

Do the regimes dominated by Hashemites etc etc claim to be democratic?

So, the Jews helped South Africa build nuclear reactors, which I'll note didn't result in nuclear armed Afrikaaners. I guess they beat the Candu people in our own Government of Canada out on that contract. Which is a solid guess on my part, considering how we otherwise helped many third world governments down the nuclear proliferation road. In this regard we're certainly in no position to question Israel's choice in client states.

Actually Israel didn't build reactors: they helped South Africa build bombs.

The seventies saw covert collaboration develop between the Israeli and South African nuclear programs, which was camouflaged by the well known collaboration between these countries on conventional arms. South Africa is known to have received technical assistance from Israel on its weapon program, in exchange for supplying Israel with 300 tons of uranium. But the extent of this assistance is not entirely clear. Several Israeli nuclear scientists, including the "Oppenheimer of Israel" Ernst David Bergmann, visited South Africa in 1967, and evidence of increasingly close relations accumulate throughout the 70s. Moshe Dayan is reported to have made a secret visit to discuss nuclear weapon cooperation in 1974, including the possibility of nuclear tests [burrows and Windrem 1994].

PM Vorster visited Israel in April 1976 which resulted in the establishment of full diplomatic relations. Israel supplied South Africa with substantial quantities of tritium -- 30 grams, in 12 separate shipments in 1977-78, in exchange for an initial supply of 50 tons of natural uranium (eventually to total 600 tons) [burrows and Windrem, 1994; pp. 451]. Israel is believed to have provided technical advice about bomb design although details about this are lacking.

...

A lingering question mark over the South African (and Israeli) nuclear programs from this time stems from the apparent detection of a low yield atmospheric nuclear explosion of unknown origin over the Indian Ocean on 22 September 1979. Due to arguments from capability and motivation Israel has always been the prime suspect, but due to its location near South Africa, South Africa's suspected (and now admitted) nuclear weapons program, and the joint nuclear and conventional weapons collaboration between these two countries, other scenarios have been offered ranging from sole South African responsibility to a joint test program.

Link

Also, I haven't read one, one, single defense of apartheid on any conservative blog or other website in the five years that I've reading blogs. If such defenses exist they are certainly not held by main stream conservatives. For you to throw that line in as if it were a common conservative viewpoint at the end of your post is utter bs. And hypocritical, when you consider that the opposite scenario, say, the leftist defense of Castro's Cuba and the monstrous Che Guevera, is commonplace on lefty blogs.

Um, given that the end of apartheid predated the internet, I'm not surprised you don't see many defenses of it. But the act remains, conservatives in the '70s and '80s were staunch defenders of the apartheid regime.

As for leftist defenses of communism, fair point, but that's certainly a far less widespread than right-wing apologies for Israel.

[August1991]

I can think of no other liberal democratic state in the world that explicitly favours one ethno-religious group.

Germany has a similar clause in its constitution. Anyone of German origin (and there are many living in Eastern Europe) has the right to become a German citizen. Japanese laws are very ethnocentric and it's all but impossible for a non-ethnic Japanese to become a citizen. In the world, American society is the exception not the norm. The world tends to view America as a mongrel.

There are many Muslim Israeli citizens and they are Islamic parties in the Knesset. I am unaware of any Jewish Party in any parliament in any Arab country. In Saudi Arabia, it is strictly forbidden to show any non-Islamic religious symbol. (That means you cannot wear a crucifix around your neck in a public place.)

True, the State of Israel grants any Jew the right to move to Israel but given world history over the past few centuries, that is understandable. The wandering jew gets its name from reality. As Mackenzie King's immigration minister famously said, "One is too many."

I think the right wing fixaton with Israel is born of its twin fetishes for military power and religious zealotry. The left's antipathy toward Israel is based on the simple fact that it consistently fails to live up to the standards of a liberal democracy.

It's interesting: the parrallels with South Africa in the '70s and '80s are astonishing: a privileged minority who's entitlement is based on their race implements inhumane policies to entrench their dominance whle enjoying the knee-jerk support of the North American right due to its status as a bulwark against the dark-skinned hordes surrounding it. That certainly explains why apartheid-era South Africa and Israel got along so swimmingly (the latter kitting out the former's now defunct nuclear program) and why the same arguments used in defence of the apartheid state are still in circulation now.

BD, that has got to be the weirdest post you have ever made.

I can't speak for others but my support for Israel stems from one simple fact: Israel is the only genuine democracy in the Middle East. The kinds of discussions we have on this forum simply don't occur in any Arab country, with the possible exception of Lebanon. I suspect you would feel perfectly at ease in a Tel Aviv cafe and you would find plenty of people who would agree with you or disagree. In Amman, Damascus or Cairo, you would not express yourself the same way.

If the Left's antipathy toward Israel is based on its inability to live up to a liberal democracy ideal, then why in God's name does the Left defend teh Arab cause?

I think rather that the North American Left has a made a cult or an ideology of "oppression". The Left will defend any group defined as oppressed. (I happen to think that this stems from the fact that many Leftists are Irish Catholic and they have an abiding resentment to the English. Either that, or many Leftists were the unfavoured son or daughter in the family.) The contortions of the Left over the Danish cartoons were almost comical. To defend "oppressed" Muslims, the Left had to support socially "regressive" Mullahs.

I don't know why the Left bases its worldview on oppression and why it has decided that Palestinians are oppressed but it has.

As to South Africa, I'm with BHS on this. Apartheid fell while Thatcher was PM and a Republican in the White House. Mulroney, a Conservative, had fierce arguments with Thatcher about how to deal with the South African regime. I'll merely add that at the time, the West was far more pre-occupoed with the Cold War and the threat of the Soviet Union than with South African apartheid.