Our mission in Afghanistan

[killjoy]

This is a great article from the Toronto Star...

http://michaelyon-online.com/media/pdf/war...oronto_star.pdf

The part of the story that strikes me as most important is the dialog between the Canadians and the Afghan elders when they visit a town. Our whole mission, Afghanistan's problems, recent history and outlook towards the Taliban are clearly articulated by the Afghans themselves. (scroll down to the by-line: "A fruitful meeting", pg. 3)

The story is .pdf and it's rather large but it's a real gem for anyone who interested in, specifically, what we do there and the reaction of the locals.

excerpt:

"I cannot promise to solve all your problems," Schamuhn tells the leaders of the tiny village of Kundalan, who are

gathered in an impromptu shura — an Arabic word that means "consultation" — at the request of their announced

guests from Canada.

"What I can do is help your government solve your problems for you. You must understand that these are not

Canadian problems, these are Afghan problems. The Canadians are here to help the Afghan government find solutions.

"But I want to emphasize one point — we will not be here forever. We are only here temporarily to help get your

government back on its feet. My concern is for after we leave. You are the men who must take the initiative to become

actively involved in solving your problems, so you will have better lives after we're gone."

The one-eyed man raises his hand, announcing dramatically, "Now it is my turn to speak."

He is not the leader of Kundalan, that title belongs to one Salah Makmad, who had opened the meeting by describing

the plight of this wholly illiterate village of some 130 families. Water is the biggest issue; rather, the inability to store

water. When the spring runoff subsides in the coming weeks, Kundalan will run dry through yet another parched

summer.

Schamuhn's assistant, Lieut. Trevor Greene, 41, has already taken down the details. As Canada's civil-military

co-operation officer on the ground with 1st Platoon, Greene is a dove among the hawks of Canadian combat.

He has already learned that when the people of Kundalan get sick, one of two things happen. Maybe they go to

Kandahar, he is told. Or maybe they just die. And Greene has already learned that Kundalan's leaders, however much

they welcome a school, will not allow the education of girls. Not even if a separate school is constructed.

The one-eyed man draws breath and unleashes his torrent of doubts and reservations. Firstly, he says, the village has

already seen American soldiers come with notepads in hand, dutifully writing down all that ails Kundalan. The village

has nothing to show for all their promises.

It may be that Canada is trying to help a government that has no intention of helping this village, he continues. And

even if Canada's help makes it to Kundalan, he concludes, the village then runs the risk of inviting attacks from Taliban

fighters.

Schamuhn acknowledges the concerns but stands firm. He tells the villagers that they must make a choice. The

Canadians are ready to do their best for Kundalan, but Kundalan has a critical role to play.

"Already we have been bombed," Schamuhn says. "Lieut. Trevor was in the vehicle that was bombed. And the

Canadian base at Gombad came under rocket attack 10 days ago. "As much as I want to help you and focus on humanitarian aid, I cannot do that if we're always fighting people."

The one-eyed man softens at this news and, in the next breath, his combative tone vanishes. "If you give us a school,

a medical clinic, we can keep security in these places. We can help you. The Taliban is not made of Afghans. It is made

of Pakistani people who come here to fight," he says.

The sudden Afghan warmth is sanctified by the serving of tea and bread. With it comes the rest of the villagers, who

until now had stood at a distance. The Afghans remark favourably on the Canadians' willingness to share in the ritual,

noting that when U.S. soldiers came to visit, they refused the offer of the sweet tea.

"My American friends have weak stomachs," laughs Schamuhn, raising his glass to salute his hosts. "So when they

drink your chai they get sick."

Schamuhn cannot help but pay an additional compliment, commenting on how the village elders have spent an entire

hour squatting on bended knee.

"I am a young man from Canada, much younger than you," he tells them. "But I could not sit in such a position for

more than a few minutes without feeling pain. The Afghan people obviously have very good genes."

A round of handshakes follows and the Canadians withdraw, satisfied that an ice-cold village has begun to show the

first signs of thaw. On the march out of Kundalan, a special-forces adviser accompanying the party points to fist-sized

plants growing on one of the village's fields.

"Poppies," he says to no one in particular."

There are thousands like this man, real Afghans, who are able and willing to take the risks if we are. Without NATO and this mission those like this man, who fight and work now, trusting in us as allies, for a better Afghanistan, will most likely die at the hands of, "Pakistani people who come here to fight".

"Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds. "

--Buddha

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[killjoy]

douple post sry.

[killjoy]

<sound of crickets chirping>

Thought I'd show a less 'optimistic' local view.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4119ec22-ec46-11d...00779e2340.html

"Last week Mohammed Mir packed up his home, left his mulberry orchards and wheat fields in Panjwai district on the outskirts of the city, and moved his family back into Kandahar.

He no longer knew who the enemy were: the police who ransacked the village houses for valuables, or the Taliban who asked for food and shelter at gunpoint.

“One night the Taliban is coming, the next the police are coming. Both of them are asking for food and bribes and if there is a fight the government will blame me for sheltering the Taliban or vice-versa,” he explained.""

There is also a bit of a drought starting. High temperatures and lack of water have already caused the deaths of a few children because a) Water shipments and irrigation construction cannot proceed until there is security. B.) Water or no, a lot of sickness and these deaths still would've been prevented if there was simply a medical clinic, (like there used to be), closer than the 100km trek to Qandahar. Again, a favourite target of the Taliban.

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[Rue]

However good, or admirable the intentions may be they are naive and misguided. Afghanistan's geography and lack of natural resources condemns it to being nothing more than an impoverished, ungovernable state that at best will grow poppies. Sorry but this won't be the last missionary who goes to a country trying to help and then getting his idealistic head blown off. Canada is trying to play nice guy in a part of the world where no foreigner has lasted. Tim Horton's coffee is not going to win over the hearts and minds of Afghanis. I admire what our soldiers are trying to do and I support them as long as they are there but I also think its completely misguided and going to end up nothing but a disaster.

[KrustyKidd]

Canada is trying to play nice guy in a part of the world where no foreigner has lasted.

Taliban were foreigners for a large part.

Nobody has ever been nice there. Nice and money wins friends and influences people. Now, think positive and back up the troops rather than tell them they will fail and their efforts won't change a thing.

[killjoy]

Rue

Afghanistan's geography and lack of natural resources condemns it to being nothing more than an impoverished, ungovernable state that at best will grow poppies.

A little research on Goggle will show you that this isn't true. Poppies are easy, yes, but only when eclipsed against the utter void of world trade willing to deal with Taliban or a hostile country. There has been corporate interest in Afghanistan’s' considerable natural resources for a long time. There's no other import because there's no diplomacy or anything else that would help boost an economy. Funny how the Pakistan-inspired Taliban seemed to act as though they believed that was the best thing for the Afghan people ...and of course Afghans weren't going to get consulted on their opinion about this. Funny how Pakistan really has no such reservation towards trade and diplomacy. Afghanistan has every chance of prospering whatever way they wish if they could get 5 years of peace and their own responsible leadership.

Look at India. Ethnically and religiously diverse, religiously 'serious', poor impoverished, overpopulated. None of these things bode well for a functioning democracy. Similar resources...They have made a great democratic country in spite of these challenges. Wild horses could not drag them back.

You are doom saying from 10000km away and in so doing partly damn them.

People say it will hurt canada's image not keeping to peacekeeping. But we have Germans, Belgians and French also fighting over there. How does help our image to say we're going to help someone and then bugger-off the moment things get tough. Things always get tough before they get better. Shoulder to the wheel time.

This IS peacekeeping.

.

[KrustyKidd]

Best way to support the troops is to tell them that they won't change a thing and lots of them will die for nothing.

I support the troops! Go us!

Yea

[killjoy]

Krusty

Best way to support the troops is to tell them that they won't change a thing and lots of them will die for nothing.

Without taking a shot at Rue, because I don't know the dude from Adam, I would say that the identifiable pop-culture theme of supporting the troops by demanding they come back in Canada is yet another example of how while we claim we distrust America, we claim we're not like them, and then we unconsciously pick up everything they do...even if it doesn't apply to us. That, ('upport the troops-bring them back), argument has more legs in the USA where there are so many more 18,19,20,21 years-olds, whom, one could easily argue (but not w/o insult), are not capable of making their own decisions. Also there is the sheer number of them.

The argument that you support the troops because you want them back only has legs if the soldiers don’t want to be there.

This isn’t the draft. These aren't kids. They're far more adult than most. There is no 100000 troops out there. There is simply 2300+ of the finest example of soldier the planet has ever, (ever) seen. They are a sophisticated experienced group 2300 dedicated people who all believe in this mission (in the defence of civvies a lot of it has to do with being there) and all they want is o be given their chance at doing it. 2300 adults all volunteers. Most could've opted out with a simple "My wife won't let me". Who are we to tell them they can't risk their own life doing this if that's their choice? Lets bring back the Red Cross then too because its too dangerous and it wont do them any good. Who cares how willing the RC workers are....Afghanistan is lost.

Kinda ridiculous telling these people they don’t have the right to make up their mind.

Jeeziz. All the billions we've wasted on bumble headed crap here at home and we can't just let them have a chance at this? Ridiculous. It really doesn't seem like anyone has a clue.

Ships are safer in harbour but that's not why you have them.

(Wasn't looking your way while ranting, Rue.)

.

[Rue]

8 billion dollars has been sent to Afghanistan to allegedly rebuild its economy. In reality most of that has gone to paying off warlords who keep the present regime in power. 80% of Afghanistan's 31 million people are subsistence farmers with no skills. Only 12% of their land is arable and more then one third of its economy comes from opium and hash hish. The country has 647,500 square k's which is about the size of Texas and has no natural sources of water and is landlocked.

Since the Arabs brought Islam to Afghanistan in 652 AD it has never been governable. Persians tried it, Mongols, Arabs, the British, Russians and Americans but no one has been able to do anything but control some military posts near Kabul. The reason is simple, it is a bug mountain impassable and impossible to control. The best the Russians could do was bomb the crap out of it with their monster helicopters. When the Americans came they tried even bigger bombs but nothing changed.

As for the British, their Gherkas, the world's best army was unable to control it. And you think the Canadian Army will?

It is precisely because we think we are better then the Americans we sent our soldiers there. We think we will show the Yanks we can do what they didn't.

So just what are our soldiers doing? Do you know? You've been given two party lines; i-they are hunting and killing Taliban, ii-they are talking to villagers and assisting them build democracy.

Let's talk about the first party line. Canada is not there as peacekeepers as one poster said. Its General and our politicians have made it clear that was never their mandate. They are then to hunt down and kill Taliban.

We have sided with the government power in a civil war against the Taliban. It is that simple. We are a proxy army. We have been brought in because the existing Afghani army would lose in a war to the Taliban.

A poster has called the Taliban foreigners and Pakistanis. Some are. Some are from other Arab nations and many are Afghani. Most importantly what you have failed to grasp is that to fuindamentalist Muslims borders such as Pakistan and Afghanistan are the invention of Christian Europeans.

In the fundamentalist Islam world there is no seperation of state and religion and the Islamic world spreads from the tip of Morrocco to the shores of the Philippines and Indonesia, to Asia, Europe, etc.

Afghanistan is not a democracy. It is a fundamentalist Islamic state that practices dhimmitude. It treats anyone who is not Islamic as an infidel without equal rights or treatment.

We are proppring a secular government that fully supports the same kind of fundamentalist ideology the Taliban does. So who is kidding who. Just what is the difference? The difference is the people behind the current government are the same drug lords the Taliban once put out of business. The Americans now need them to prop up a puppet government. When the Taliban fought the Russians, they were America's ally. Now suddenly they are the enemy.

So you can buy into this party line that Taliban are terrorists but they had no relation to 9-11. There relationship with Osama was barely in existence. They do not like him and what he stands for. Because they were fundamentalist Muslims they were forced into a corner and could not out of principle turn him over. That is the only reason they are now the enemy.

Now you tell me how such people are the enemy when they shut down the opium trade and Afghanistan was not invading anyone and minding its own business until Osama hid there. That is the only reason the Americans went in.

Now that he is gone how does killing Taliban fight the war on terrorism. Wake up people. It wasn't too long ago the Green Berets were sent into Vietnam to save the people from Commies and develop democracy.

You have been fed the same recycled imperialist b.s. Our army is there to prop up a government perceived to be pro-American. This is done because strategically oil pipelines have to go through Afghanistan.

We are not there to save anyone although I am sure that makes you feel good.

As for the second party line, how is it we expect our troops to hunt and kill Taliban and then also expect them to have tea and befriend the natives who are also fundamentalist Muslims.

What makes you think simple people, living without water and electricity and who believe in fundamentalist Islam will identify with Canadian soldiers sent to kill their fellow Muslims?

I mean it is utter navite to think Afghanis will want our soldiers killing fellow Muslims and no they do not think of them as foreigners or Pakistanis. That is what your press and your parties tell you to sell their presence there. To the average peasant, whether these Taliban are Pakistani, Aran, etc., they still practice the same religion, wear the same clothes, follow the same traditions and have much more in common with them.

So let us not pretend an army we have sent to take sides and shoot and kill Muslim fundamentalists wil win over the hearts of other Muslim fundamentalists simply because we can't imagine anyone not liking us. This is precisely the same misguided impersialistic b.s. that causes the Americans so much trouble when they invade nations. They can't imagine anyone not liking them.

Now how many of you have stopped and taken a look at the country you think the Canadian army will help build democracy in. First of all the Canadian army is not building schools, hospitals, libraries or like Mao's Red Army walking around with little red books with Maple Leafs lecturing the masses about democracy.

That is not happening.

Why? Stop and understand that Afghanistan is nothing more then anarchy. It is a series of factions constantly at war with one another;

here is a list of the political parties approved by the Afghani Ministry of Justice so this does not include hundreds of illegal organizations:

Afghan Millat [Anwarul Haq AHADI]; De Afghanistan De Solay Ghorzang Gond [shahnawaz TANAI]; De Afghanistan De Solay Mili Islami Gond [shah Mahmood Polal ZAI]; Harakat-e-Islami Afghanistan [Mohammad Asif MOHSINEE]; Hezb-e-Aarman-e-Mardum-e-Afghanistan [iihaj Saraj-u-din ZAFAREE]; Hezb-e-Aazadee Afghanistan [Abdul MALIK]; Hezb-e-Adalat-e-Islami Afghanistan [Mohammad Kabeer MARZBAN]; Hezb-e-Afghanistan-e-Wahid [Mohammad Wasil RAHEEMEE]; Hezb-e-Afghan Watan Islami Gond; Hezb-e-Congra-e-Mili Afghanistan [Latif PEDRAM]; Hezb-e-Falah-e-Mardum-e-Afghanistan [Mohammad ZAREEF]; Hezb-e-Hambastagee Mili Jawanan-e-Afghanistan [Mohammad Jamil KARZAI]; Hezb-e-Hamnbatagee-e-Afghanistan [Abdul Khaleq NEMAT]; Hezb-e-Harakat-e-Mili Wahdat-e-Afghanistan [Mohammad Nadir AATASH]; Hezb-e-Harak-e-Islami Mardum-e-Afghanistan [ilhaj Said Hssain ANWARY]; Hezb-e-Ifazat Az Uqoq-e-Bashar Wa Inkishaf-e-Afghanistan [baryalai NASRATEE]; Hezb-e-Istiqlal-e-Afghanistan [Dr. Gh. Farooq NIJZRABEE]; Hezb-e-Jamhoree Khwahan [sibghatullah SANJAR]; Hezb-e-Kar Wa Tawsiha-e-Afghanistan [Zulfiar OMID]; Hezb-e-Libral-e-Aazadee Khwa-e-Mardum-e-Afghanistan [Ajmal SOHAIL]; Hezb-e-Mili Afghanistan [Abdul Rasheed AARYAN]; Hezb-e-Mili Wahdat-e-Aqwam-e-Islami Afghanistan [Mohammad Shah KHOGYANEE]; Hezb-e-Nuhzhat-e-Mili Afghanistan [Ahmad Wali MASOUD]; Hezb-e-Paiwand-e-Mili Afghanistan [said Mansoor NADIRI]; Hezb-e-Rastakhaiz-e-Islami Mardum-e-Afghanistan [said ZAHIR]; Hezb-e-Refah-e-Mardum-e-Afghanistan [Mia Gul WASEEQ]; Hezb-e-Risalat-e-Mardum-e-Afghanistan [Noor Aqa ROEEN]; Hezb-e-Sahadat-e-Mardum-e-Afghanistan [Mohammad Zubair PAIROZ]; Hezb-e-Sahadat-e-Mili Wa Islami Afghanistan [Mohammad Usman SALIGZADA]; Hezb-e-Sulh-e-Mili Islami Aqwam-e-Afghanistan [Abdul Qahir SHARYATEE]; Hezb-e-Sulh Wa Wahdat-e-Mili Afghanistan [Abdul Qadir IMAMEE]; Hezb-e-Tafahum-e-Wa Democracy Afghanistan [Ahamad SHAHEEN]; Hezb-e-Wahdat-e-Islami Afghanistan [Mohammad Karim KHALILI]; Hezb-e-Wahdat-e-Islami Mardum-e-Afghanistan [ustad Mohammad MOHAQQEQ]; Hezb-e-Wahdat-e-Mili Afghanistan [Abdul Rasheed JALILI]; Jamahat-ul-Dahwat ilal Qurhan-wa-Sunat-ul-Afghanistan [Mawlawee Samiullah NAJEEBEE]; Jombesh-e Milli [Abdul Rashid DOSTAM]; Mahaz-e-Mili Islami Afghanistan [said Ahmad GAILANEE]; Majmah-e-Mili Fahaleen-e-Sulh-e-Afghanistan [shams ul Haq Noor SHAMS]; Nuhzat-e-Aazadee Wa Democracy Afghanistan [Abdul Raqeeb Jawid KUHISTANEE]; Nuhzat-e-Hambastagee Mili Afghanistan [Peer Said Ishaq GAILANEE]; Sazman-e-Islami Afghanistan-e-Jawan [siad Jawad HUSSAINEE]; Tahreek Wahdat-e-Mili [sultan Mahmood DHAZI] (30 Sep 2004) Jamiat-e Islami (Society of Islam) [former President Burhanuddin RABBANI]; Ittihad-e Islami (Islamic Union for the Liberation of Afghanistan) [Abdul Rasul SAYYAF]; there are also small monarchist, communist, and democratic groups

Now how do you suggest the Canadian Army will get all these factions to sit down and be one big happy family when no one else has ever been able to do so? With Tim Horton's coffee and doughnuts?

Afghanistan has no economy. Its not like you can go into the country and build up its industries so as to employ everyone and make everyone happy. It has nothing but subsistence farmers and so of course it will have hundreds if not thousands of factions no different then in Somalia.

So sorry I do not buy into the party line that by killing Taliban and having tea with Afghanis, Canada is helping to build a democractic nation. That is pap.

We are there as part of a strategic need to protect oil supply lines and to prevent American retaliation. Our people have been sent to Afghanistan to gain favour with the Americans, pure and simple.

You want to fight terrorism? Let's not play games. You don't send a poorly equipped army to Afghanistan and have it patrol like sitting ducks in falling apart equipment and then after telling its soldiers to shoot and kill at 9 a.m., tell them at 4 p.m. to go drink tea with the natives who might very well be Taliban sympathizers.

The longer our army stays, the more soldiers will die and the more likely our soldiers will commit an autrocity against civilians. Armies trained to hunt and kill placed in prolonged wars of attrition and placed in civilian communities kill civilians. Its inevitable. Our soldiers did it in Somalia and every conventional military force sent to civilian areas has also done it no matter how well trained they are.

This is why I say grow up. Don't mix up our immature need to be good guys and show the Americans we are better with our mission. If we are there to help build roads, hospitals, schools, then of course that should be done by non profit organizations not the army.

If we are there to fight a war against terrorism then we should have elite, fast moving, commando units who do not interact with the public and civilians and who operate in secrecy and strike unexpectedly and do not telebroadcast their movements for public consumption.

We expect our soldiers to be nice guys and killers. That is b.s. Nice guys do not hunt and kill terrorists, trained killers do.

Now the soldiers want to stay, fine. what happens a year from now when internal morale starts to change after one too many deaths or attacks from the shadows? What do you think happened to the American army in Vietnam, the British Amry in Northern Ireland, The Israeli Army in the Gaza and West Bank, the Indonesian Army in East Timor, the Chinese in Tibet, the Syrians in Lebanon? How many lessons in history do we need to show us conventional armies that try occupy cities and towns are doomed to failure?

Part of having courage is knowing when to pick and fight your battles and conflicts. Its easy to go along with something for fear of looking like a coward if you otherwise disagree but I think in this case it would not be cowardly to say Afghanistan will not be helped in the manner in which we are being asked.

We have jumped on defective Bush foreign policy that did not work in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Vietnam.

The US had no problems making a quick retreat from Somalia. If there is no oil, the Americans know when to cut their losses and run.

Why we are caught up in this exercise of trying to out do them I do not know.

I say engage in an anti-terrorist war with elite commando units but do not bog your army down in foreign countries. Spend our resources assisting non profit organizations teach self-sufficiency. Our soldiers are not social workers.

I believe our forces would be better served in Darfur as true peacekeepers for the UN and I believe our finances should be spent on rebuilding our armed forces, particularly our Navy and Air Force so they can

protect our own natural resources and soverieignty from the US's clear intention of contesting our Northern sovereignty.

[GostHacked]

Rue, fantastic on all points. This is a more accurate picture of what is going on there and what HAS been going on there for decades.

Some people are easily fooled into thinking Afghanistan is a democracy. It is not. Sharia Law is still the law of the land (and had been under Taliban rule)

[killjoy]

Good post Rue. Some good points. I will give a proper response this evening. Too busy at the moment.

.

[Army Guy]

RUE:

Unlike some posters i thought your post was more of a long winded rant, most of it based on your opinion of what is happening on the ground in afgan, one based not on fact but NDP type here say. And like a majority of Canadians they truely do not know what is going on, not because the info is not available but because it was not spoon feed to them. That and the fact that Canada is on this Anti-america fade, and refuse to believe that some good could actually come out of this mission.

Since the Arabs brought Islam to Afghanistan in 652 AD it has never been governable. Persians tried it, Mongols, Arabs, the British, Russians and Americans but no one has been able to do anything but control some military posts near Kabul. The reason is simple, it is a bug mountain impassable and impossible to control. The best the Russians could do was bomb the crap out of it with their monster helicopters. When the Americans came they tried even bigger bombs but nothing changed.

i believe this has been explained over and over again, "we" are not thier to occupy anything but to assist the "elected" GOVERNMENT.

As for the British, their Gherkas, the world's best army was unable to control it. And you think the Canadian Army will?

It is precisely because we think we are better then the Americans we sent our soldiers there. We think we will show the Yanks we can do what they didn't.

Yes, because the Canadian army is the best army in the world for this type of operation. and proving that we are better than the US military, is not all that hard in this type of mission.

Let's talk about the first party line. Canada is not there as peacekeepers as one poster said. Its General and our politicians have made it clear that was never their mandate. They are then to hunt down and kill Taliban.

We have sided with the government power in a civil war against the Taliban. It is that simple. We are a proxy army. We have been brought in because the existing Afghani army would lose in a war to the Taliban.

And how would this be different in Dafur, as you suggested. I fail to see your piont ?

A poster has called the Taliban foreigners and Pakistanis. Some are. Some are from other Arab nations and many are Afghani. Most importantly what you have failed to grasp is that to fuindamentalist Muslims borders such as Pakistan and Afghanistan are the invention of Christian Europeans.

In the fundamentalist Islam world there is no seperation of state and religion and the Islamic world spreads from the tip of Morrocco to the shores of the Philippines and Indonesia, to Asia, Europe, etc.

It may be an invention as you stated by Christians but those borders are excepted by all muslims and christians today, and those same muslim countries have been at war with each other over those same borders for some time now.

Afghanistan is not a democracy. It is a fundamentalist Islamic state that practices dhimmitude. It treats anyone who is not Islamic as an infidel without equal rights or treatment.

We are proppring a secular government that fully supports the same kind of fundamentalist ideology the Taliban does. So who is kidding who. Just what is the difference? The difference is the people behind the current government are the same drug lords the Taliban once put out of business. The Americans now need them to prop up a puppet government. When the Taliban fought the Russians, they were America's ally. Now suddenly they are the enemy.

It's government was freely elected, and it's present government may not compare to ours in regards to laws and customs. But you make it sound that the Afgans were better off with the taliban, drug free.

So you can buy into this party line that Taliban are terrorists but they had no relation to 9-11. There relationship with Osama was barely in existence. They do not like him and what he stands for. Because they were fundamentalist Muslims they were forced into a corner and could not out of principle turn him over. That is the only reason they are now the enemy.

Can you provide one shred of evidence of this.

Now you tell me how such people are the enemy when they shut down the opium trade and Afghanistan was not invading anyone and minding its own business until Osama hid there. That is the only reason the Americans went in.

Is it really and you've researched this ? enlighten me please.

As for the second party line, how is it we expect our troops to hunt and kill Taliban and then also expect them to have tea and befriend the natives who are also fundamentalist Muslims.

What makes you think simple people, living without water and electricity and who believe in fundamentalist Islam will identify with Canadian soldiers sent to kill their fellow Muslims?

I mean it is utter navite to think Afghanis will want our soldiers killing fellow Muslims and no they do not think of them as foreigners or Pakistanis. That is what your press and your parties tell you to sell their presence there. To the average peasant, whether these Taliban are Pakistani, Aran, etc., they still practice the same religion, wear the same clothes, follow the same traditions and have much more in common with them.

So let us not pretend an army we have sent to take sides and shoot and kill Muslim fundamentalists wil win over the hearts of other Muslim fundamentalists simply because we can't imagine anyone not liking us. This is precisely the same misguided impersialistic b.s. that causes the Americans so much trouble when they invade nations. They can't imagine anyone not liking them.

Have you been there? have you talked to the people, Are you part of the diplmatic mission, then just how or where are you getting your info to make judgements as you have ?

Now how many of you have stopped and taken a look at the country you think the Canadian army will help build democracy in. First of all the Canadian army is not building schools, hospitals, libraries or like Mao's Red Army walking around with little red books with Maple Leafs lecturing the masses about democracy.

That is not happening

Not only are we building Schools, hospitals,etc etc alot of this extra activities are done on the soldiers spare time, at thier own expense, at thier own peril. your info shows your lack of knowledge of what is going on but insults all the efforts our soldiers are doing over there. The last time i was over there our unit headed up a fund raiser event that purchase a new wing of a small hospital and a new AMB.

This is why I say grow up. Don't mix up our immature need to be good guys and show the Americans we are better with our mission. If we are there to help build roads, hospitals, schools, then of course that should be done by non profit organizations not the army.

If we are there to fight a war against terrorism then we should have elite, fast moving, commando units who do not interact with the public and civilians and who operate in secrecy and strike unexpectedly and do not telebroadcast their movements for public consumption.

Agian this has been said over and over again, you need a large military conventional force on the ground to make this mission happen.

We expect our soldiers to be nice guys and killers. That is b.s. Nice guys do not hunt and kill terrorists, trained killers do.

This is funny, Canadians did not have a problem with having those same killers helping them during the Ice strorm , or the floods in winnipeg, or the countless forrest fires. they had no problem inviting these killers into thier homes to feed them, in fact they were glad we where there to assit,

I believe our forces would be better served in Darfur as true peacekeepers for the UN and I believe our finances should be spent on rebuilding our armed forces, particularly our Navy and Air Force so they can

protect our own natural resources and soverieignty from the US's clear intention of contesting our Northern sovereignty

Again a statement that once again proves your lack of understanding of the current situation in Dafar, and in the useless organization called the UN. Why change one mission for another, Why do you except Dafar mission over the Afgan one ? Your last statement says it all it's not that either mission is more important than the other just that Dafar is not a US mission, or has US involvement.

[Topaz]

Thanks to GW Bush and his gang, the Middle East is a mess and will be many years before there's peace.....peace does this generation know what that is??? This region war is about greed, power and control and some countries of NATO are just following whatever the top three countries want. A US general recently came out and said carpet bombing in this war isn't going to stop any terrorist, u have to put boots on the ground, so why hasn't NATO done this. It can't be about money because they are spending millions on dropping bombs. The way things are going, our kids, children are going to be fighting this war, peace is something from the past that will be a long time coming again.

[Big Guy]

Get Canada out of this escalating fiasco.

[PIK]

The bombing has slowed ISIS big time, god knows where they could be today without it. Bombing with no boots on the ground is not the greatest but since the kurds are on the ground it is helping. Look at Gitmo and how everyone screamed bloody murder over the treatment of a few prisoners, but yet those prisoners are still alive, where Obama does not take prisoners and just kills them. But yet the intelligence community would love to have some prisoners to interrogate.

[Smallc]

The bombing has slowed ISIS big time, god knows where they could be today without it.

And that's all it can really ever do.

[DogOnPorch]

And that's all it can really ever do.

Not true. Two quick examples: The Six Day War and the Battle of Britain. In both, air-power played the deciding factor. In the Battle of Britain it was the only arm used.

[On Guard for Thee]

The bombing has slowed ISIS big time, god knows where they could be today without it. Bombing with no boots on the ground is not the greatest but since the kurds are on the ground it is helping. Look at Gitmo and how everyone screamed bloody murder over the treatment of a few prisoners, but yet those prisoners are still alive, where Obama does not take prisoners and just kills them. But yet the intelligence community would love to have some prisoners to interrogate.

I think this thread is supposed to be about Afghanistan. But if you want to talk IS for a moment, then facts show the bombing has had some small effect is Iraq, but hasn't done much in Syria. Alleppo is one glaring example. They have infiltrated many of the major cities so unless you want to bomb the whole city into dust, then it's boots on the ground to root out IS.

[DogOnPorch]

In Afghanistan's case, Soviet air power was quickly destroying what remained of the Mujaheddin. Hinds are pretty much bullet proof. Then some fellows in RayBans showed-up with some Stinger missiles.

Edited February 3, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[Smallc]

Not true. Two quick examples: The Six Day War and the Battle of Britain. In both, air-power played the deciding factor. In the Battle of Britain it was the only arm used.

Modern rules of warfare don't allow us to bomb any and everything.

[On Guard for Thee]

In Afghanistan's case, Soviet air power was quickly destroying what remained of the Mujaheddin. Hinds are pretty much bullet proof. Then some fellows in RayBans showed-up with some Stinger missiles.

Actually a lot of the Soviets downfall in Afghanistan was that they relied too heavily on tanks, not air power. The Mujaheddin simply waited in the Hindu Kush and picked them off as they made their way down the valleys.

Edited February 3, 2016 by On Guard for Thee

[DogOnPorch]

Modern rules of warfare don't allow us to bomb any and everything.

I'd say that's a bit of pie-in-the-sky as Russian Tu-95s and such conduct ArcLight-like raids in Syria. Civilians are those that get out of the way successfully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arc_Light

[On Guard for Thee]

I'd say that's a bit of pie-in-the-sky as Russian Tu-95s and such conduct ArcLight-like raids in Syria. Civilians are those that get out of the way successfully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Arc_Light

And all that's really achieved is add greatly to the refugee flood and not dislodged IS in any meaningful way.

[DogOnPorch]

Afghanistan for the Russians was very similar to the US/SEATO involvement in South Viet-Nam. Both invited-in by the current government...both compelled to leave for reasons other than defeat on the battlefield.

Russia's final offensive in Afghanistan was a huge success....Stinger missiles be darned. Magistral I believe it was called. Operation Spank the Mujaheddin, more like.

Re: Russia in Syria....nobody cares if they bomb civilians en masse or help create refugees by the millions. The blame is clearly that of the West's.

[On Guard for Thee]

Afghanistan for the Russians was very similar to the US/SEATO involvement in South Viet-Nam. Both invited-in by the current government...both compelled to leave for reasons other than defeat on the battlefield.

Russia's final offensive in Afghanistan was a huge success....Stinger missiles be darned. Magistral I believe it was called. Operation Spank the Mujaheddin, more like.

Re: Russia in Syria....nobody cares if they bomb civilians en masse or help create refugees by the millions. The blame is clearly that of the West's.

Then I guess the west should shut up about the enflux of refugees heading for their borders.