Have Trump and his ICE agents become a terrifying Fascist state?

[blackbird]

What is happening in a country which was once supposed to be a leading country for human rights and freedoms is shocking.

"

The group has collected dozens of reports from immigration attorneys whose clients were immediately arrested after their court appearances only to be placed into expedited removal proceedings where they can be rapidly deported without an opportunity to appear before a judge.

Detainees include immigrants of all ages, including families with young children and toddlers as young as two and three years old, according to the group’s analysis of recent arrests.

In at least one case, ICE agents detained children who were in court with their parents and attempted to arrest a mother with a nursing infant, the report found."

Outrage after California fourth grader is detained by ICE agents during immigration hearing

Edited Wednesday at 09:02 PM by blackbird

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

What is happening in a country which was once supposed to be a leading country for human rights and freedoms is shocking.

"

The group has collected dozens of reports from immigration attorneys whose clients were immediately arrested after their court appearances only to be placed into expedited removal proceedings where they can be rapidly deported without an opportunity to appear before a judge.

Detainees include immigrants of all ages, including families with young children and toddlers as young as two and three years old, according to the group’s analysis of recent arrests.

In at least one case, ICE agents detained children who were in court with their parents and attempted to arrest a mother with a nursing infant, the report found."

Outrage after California fourth grader is detained by ICE agents during immigration hearing

But as I understand it all of these people are genuinely unlawfully in the US. If that's not true they can still exercise their legal options outside of the US.

If that understanding is correct, then there's nothing totalitarian or fascist. If people don't like the law then they should change the law, but if these people are genuinely unlawfully in the country then they should be removed.

I'm more interesting conversation would be is this wise considering it's going to discourage virtually anyone from showing up to their hearings? It could make the problem go deeper underground and make it that much harder to resolve.

But no, sovereignty over one's national borders is not fascist in the slightest

[blackbird]

23 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But no, sovereignty over one's national borders is not fascist in the slightest

It's the way Trump and ICE are going about it.  They don't respect due process at all and human rights.  They don't care about any legal process and have no conscience about taking kids away from their parents and locking anybody up.

[User]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

What is happening in a country which was once supposed to be a leading country for human rights and freedoms is shocking.

Nothing shocking about it. 

The last administration was allowing this lawlessness to happen. They were not deporting illegal immigrants. They were giving them these never-ending immigration check-ins. 

These people are here unlawfully, Trump is deporting them and enforcing existing immigration law. 

Period. End of Story. 

If the leftists didn't create this mess, it wouldn't be a mess to have to clean up. 

This stuff happens every day when any other parent is engaged in criminal activity and they are arrested. The children are not just left on their own, the government takes them into custody as well. The kid was not arrested. 

What do you think happens if parents are arrested while driving intoxicated with kids in the car? Do you think the police just leave the kids in the car on the side of the road? No, of course not. They arrest the parents, put them in jail, and the kids are separated into protective custody for their own safety. 

 

 

[taxme]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

What is happening in a country which was once supposed to be a leading country for human rights and freedoms is shocking.

"

The group has collected dozens of reports from immigration attorneys whose clients were immediately arrested after their court appearances only to be placed into expedited removal proceedings where they can be rapidly deported without an opportunity to appear before a judge.

Detainees include immigrants of all ages, including families with young children and toddlers as young as two and three years old, according to the group’s analysis of recent arrests.

In at least one case, ICE agents detained children who were in court with their parents and attempted to arrest a mother with a nursing infant, the report found."

Outrage after California fourth grader is detained by ICE agents during immigration hearing

What is wrong with a President of America trying to get rid of illegal criminal aliens that have committed many heinous  crimes in America. And if someone entered America illegally, than they committed a criminal act, than they should be deported. Would you not want the same thing to happen here in Canada and get rid of all illegal criminal aliens and people who entered Canada illegally?

I certainly do not want anyone entering Canada illegally like what has been happening for over several years now in Canada. I want them gone. I do not want any my taxes going to some illegal criminal to help support them in Canada while other Canadians suffer homelessness thanks to massive immigration. I wish that we had an ICE government agency here in Canada just for the purpose of getting rid of all illegals in Canada. 

[User]

46 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It's the way Trump and ICE are going about it.  They don't respect due process at all and human rights.  They don't care about any legal process and have no conscience about taking kids away from their parents and locking anybody up.

So... you want them to put the kids into the jail with the parents?

THAT would not be respecting human rights. 

 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

What is wrong with a President of America trying to get rid of illegal criminal aliens that have committed many heinous  crimes in America. And if someone entered America illegally, than they committed a criminal act, than they should be deported. Would you not want the same thing to happen here in Canada and get rid of all illegal criminal aliens and people who entered Canada illegally?

I certainly do not want anyone entering Canada illegally like what has been happening for over several years now in Canada. I want them gone. I do not want any my taxes going to some illegal criminal to help support them in Canada while other Canadians suffer homelessness thanks to massive immigration. I wish that we had an ICE government agency here in Canada just for the purpose of getting rid of all illegals in Canada. 

I don't believe in Fascism where people are not given due process.  America is supposed to be a country of law and due processes, not arbitrary arrest and deportation with no process.  Hope you don't agree with how Hitler and Stalin operated.  Canada has a process which is followed to deport people and those people have a legal right to appeal any rulings.

Edited Thursday at 12:08 AM by blackbird

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, User said:

These people are here unlawfully, Trump is deporting them and enforcing existing immigration law. 

No, that's not how it works.  There is a justice system, laws and processes that must be followed and everyone has the right to the due process.  You sound like you don't believe in a legal framework with rights and due process for everyone.  I have a surprise for you.  Due process is how it works in Canada.  What is going on the U.S. would never happen in Canada under our system.   I corresponded with a cabinet Minister, possibly the federal Minister of Justice, a long time ago about a case and I was told everyone has the right to appeal and follow the due process before they are deported.  That is exactly what he told me.

Edited Thursday at 12:06 AM by blackbird

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

It's the way Trump and ICE are going about it.  They don't respect due process at all and human rights.  They don't care about any legal process and have no conscience about taking kids away from their parents and locking anybody up.

Well as I understand it they just deporting them. I'm not sure how much due process would be involved with that.

While people may not like deportation it's not actually a punishment like incarcerating somebody for years would be. I would guess that it would be incumbent upon the individual to prove that they have lawful excuse to be in the country and if they couldn't they would be removed whereupon they could still seek legal recourse through the courts from another country.

I think a lot of people feel that many of these people have been abusing the court system to stay in the country longer than they should have and when that happens there is always a blowback like this. I think if someone is deported Erroneously when they actually had every right to be in the country then they should be able to sue the government for massive amounts of money and it should be a national embarrassment for trump. But considering they are not being held or incarcerated any longer than necessary to remove them from the country I don't know that they require a great deal more due process than that.

If a court says they do then there should be some process set up to make sure that people aren't deported who are legitimately in the country but at the end of the day I'm still not seeing the Draconian nature here. These people entered the country illegally as I understand it, they were aware of the risks, they were aware that they may be thrown out, and now that's happening.

[CdnFox]

25 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't believe in Fascism where people are not given due process.  America is supposed to be a country of law and due processes, not arbitrary arrest and deportation with no process.  Hope you don't agree with how Hitler and Stalin operated.

What's your definition of due process here? Do process normally applies to the legal machinery involved with defending yourself against a crime.

But these people are not being criminally charged, they're simply being removed from the property so to speak. And they absolutely still have access to that legal system from a different country. You don't have to be in the united states in order to appeal to the united states court.

So I have to ask do process for what? They are still granted access to the courts, they're just not allowed to do it from within the country until they have evidence that they are lawfully allowed in the country. I'm not sure where their rights are being trampled, and I'm not being facetious or sarcastic. You'll have to explain to me what legal recourse they no longer have by being removed from the country

[User]

18 minutes ago, blackbird said:

No, that's not how it works.  There is a justice system, laws and processes that must be followed and everyone has the right to the due process. 

No one is taking away due process. They are here illegally and now they are being detained pending that process. 

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You sound like you don't believe in a legal framework with rights and due process for everyone. 

How so. Please be specific.

 

[CdnFox]

Just now, User said:

No one is taking away due process. They are here illegally and now they are being detained pending that process. 

 

Are they? I thought they were simply being deported. They may be held long enough to remove them from the country but i don't believe they're being held while their claim is processed. I think they're just punted out and they can continue their claim from outside the us. Did i get that wrong?

[User]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Are they? I thought they were simply being deported. They may be held long enough to remove them from the country but i don't believe they're being held while their claim is processed. I think they're just punted out and they can continue their claim from outside the us. Did i get that wrong?

From the article, they still get "due process" but Trump is not going to let them just roam the streets endlessly getting check ins like Biden did because Biden was never interested in deporting them. 

"After taking office, the president issued an executive order that greenlights fast-track deportation proceedings for immigrants who cannot prove that they have continuously lived in the United States for more than two years."
 

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, User said:

From the article, they still get "due process" but Trump is not going to let them just roam the streets endlessly getting check ins like Biden did because Biden was never interested in deporting them. 

"After taking office, the president issued an executive order that greenlights fast-track deportation proceedings for immigrants who cannot prove that they have continuously lived in the United States for more than two years."
 

Yeah, so they're just deporting them.  They're not incarcerating them for lengths of time without trial or the like, they're not punishing them, they're just saying "you don't have a right to be here, you'll be leaving now" and removing them from the country. 

And they can pursue whatever claims they have on the go to get legal permission to be in the country from their own country presumably. 

So.. i'm just not seeing how this is a denial of anything. If you want in, no sweat make application from your country and lets see if you qualify, same as most normal people do around the world.  

[User]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Yeah, so they're just deporting them. 

Nope. That is not what I said nor what the article even went on to further explain. They still go through immigration courts and get "due process"

"“Immigration courts are being weaponized, judges are coordinating with ICE to dismiss cases and immediately funnel individuals into the fast-track deportation pipeline known as expedited removal,” the group said in a statement. “These are not fugitives. They are individuals, many who are seeking protection from torture in their countries, complying with the law.”

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, User said:

Nope. That is not what I said nor what the article even went on to further explain. They still go through immigration courts and get "due process"

 

I should have been more clear, I meant they're not being charged with any crimes or anything in the country or being deported for punishment or being held without cause for extended periods or the like, they're being deported after it's been determined that they don't have a legal right to be here by the immigration courts. 

As you point out they are still being given a chance to show there's been a mistake or the like and they SHOULD be here.  And if they disgree with the decision they would STILL have recourse outside the country, 

 

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

What's your definition of due process here? Do process normally applies to the legal machinery involved with defending yourself against a crime.

In Canada, there is a process whereby migrants may appeal deportation.  

According to this news report, Trump just ignored due processes and deported many people.  Also, many were sent to a notorious prison in El Salvador, under the allegation that they were gang members, even though this has been strongly disputed by many.  

quote

WASHINGTON (AP) — A federal judge ruled on Wednesday that the Trump administration must give more than 100 migrants sent to a notorious prison in El Salvador a chance to challenge their deportations.

U.S. District Court Chief Judge James Boasberg said that people who were sent to the prison in March under an 18th-century wartime law haven’t been able to formally contest the removals or allegations that they are members of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua. He ordered the administration to work toward giving them a way to file those challenges.

The judge wrote that “significant evidence” has surfaced indicating that many of the migrants imprisoned in El Salvador are not connected to the gang “and thus languish in a foreign prison on flimsy, even frivolous, accusations.”

Boasberg gave the administration one week to come up with a manner in which the "at least 137" people can make those claims, even while they're formally in the custody of El Salvador. It's the latest milestone in the monthslong legal saga over the fate of deportees imprisoned at El Salvador’s notorious Terrorism Confinement Center.

After Trump invoked the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 in March and prepared to fly planeloads of accused gang members to El Salvador and out of the jurisdiction of U.S. courts, Boasberg ordered them to turn the planes around. This demand was ignored. Boasberg has found probable cause that the administration committed contempt of court after the flight landed. El Salvador President Nayib Bukele posted a taunting message on social media — reposted by some of Trump's top aides — that read “Oopsie, too late.”

The U.S. Supreme Court later ruled that anyone targeted under the AEA has the right to appeal to a judge to contest their designation as an enemy of the state. Boasberg, in his latest, ruling wrote that he was simply applying that principle to those who'd been removed.

Boasberg said the administration “plainly deprived” the immigrants of a chance to challenge their removals before they were put on flights. Therefore, he says the government must handle the migrants cases now as if they “would have been if the Government had not provided constitutionally inadequate process.”

The Department of Justice did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The administration and its supporters have targeted Boasberg for his initial order halting deportations and his contempt inquiry, part of their growing battle with the judiciary as it puts the brakes on Trump's efforts to unilaterally remake government. The fight has been particularly harsh in the realm of immigration, where Trump has repeatedly said it'd be impossible to protect the country from dangerous immigrants if each one has his or her day in court."

Judge says migrants sent to El Salvador prison must get a chance to challenge their removals

Also, the right to deport migrants apparently, according to an article I saw, becomes weaker the longer a migrant has been in the country.  If they have a wife and children who were born in the U.S. for example and have established themselves in a trade or career and years have passed, the argument to deport them becomes weaker also.  There is no simple rule such as Trump digging up some 200 year old Alien Enemies Act and using that as justification to deport any migrant.  Trump has also been ignoring court rulings.

 

Edited Thursday at 02:03 AM by blackbird

[User]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

According to this news report, Trump just ignored due processes and deported many people. 

Where does this news report say that? I have already quoted from it where it says they will go through the immigration courts. 

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Trump has also been ignoring court rulings.

Name one. 

[blackbird]

6 minutes ago, User said:

Where does this news report say that? I have already quoted from it where it says they will go through the immigration courts. 

 This is mentioned in a news article I posted earlier on here.  Guess you never read it.

"After Trump invoked the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 in March and prepared to fly planeloads of accused gang members to El Salvador and out of the jurisdiction of U.S. courts, Boasberg ordered them to turn the planes around. This demand was ignored. Boasberg has found probable cause that the administration committed contempt of court after the flight landed. El Salvador President Nayib Bukele posted a taunting message on social media — reposted by some of Trump's top aides — that read “Oopsie, too late.”

10 minutes ago, User said:

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Trump has also been ignoring court rulings.

Name one. 

"Trump confronted for defiance of court orders across series of cases

The Trump administration is ramping up its feud with the judiciary even as the courts fire back, accusing the executive branch of defying court orders.

On Tuesday, a federal judge in Maryland admonished Justice Department lawyers for failing to provide meaningful updates on their effort to secure the return of a man mistakenly deported to El Salvdaor.

On Wednesday, a federal judge in D.C. found probable cause that the administration had willfully disobeyed his order to halt or turn around flights carrying some 200 men to a Salvadoran prison.

The same day, a watchdog group accused Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Director John Ratcliffe of defying a judge’s order to preserve communications in a now-infamous Signal group chat used to share sensitive military information.

And on Friday, another judge paused mass layoffs at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) over concerns they ran afoul of her previous order.

Experts say the unusual moves signal an administration willing to be more combative with the courts — and that they raise concerns about whether the dynamic will escalate over the rest of President Trump’s term.

“What you’re witnessing is a kind of adversarial stance that is unusual for government lawyers to take,” said Rebecca Roiphe, a former federal prosecutor now teaching legal ethics at New York Law School."

Trump confronted for defiance of court orders across series of cases

[User]

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

This is mentioned in a news article I posted earlier on here.  Guess you never read it.

No, no that was not mentioned in the report you posted here earlier. You just shared that now, after my comment. 

Either way, you are now conflating two different things. You started this thread talking about ICE showing up at immigration hearings to detain illegal immigrants complaining about the kids not going to jail with the parents... 

Now you are changing the subject to a specific use of the Alien Enemies Act regarding violent gang members from Venezuela. 

17 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Trump confronted for defiance of court orders across series of cases

These are not examples of Trump ignoring court orders. These are examples of Trump administration playing the legal game and doing what is believed to be lawful under the existing framework of those orders. 

Like the one where the Judge said Trump did not obey his order on the flights... the administration argues that order was not in writing and thus had not legal weight. 

These are all legal arguments playing out in the courts, not examples of Trump just outright ignoring court orders. 

 

[blackbird]

33 minutes ago, User said:

These are all legal arguments playing out in the courts, not examples of Trump just outright ignoring court orders. 

 

Nonsense.  There are enough examples of the Trump administration outright ignoring court orders to show this is a lawless administration.   

This short ten minute video talks about some of that.

Bing Videos

[CdnFox]

 

Quote

 

quote

WASHINGTON (AP) — A federal judge ruled on Wednesday that the Trump administration must give more than 100 migrants sent to a notorious prison in El Salvador a chance to challenge their deportations.

U.S. District Court Chief Judge James Boasberg said that people who were sent to the prison in March under an 18th-century wartime law haven’t been able to formally contest the removals or allegations that they are members of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua. He ordered the administration to work toward giving them a way to file those challenges.

The judge wrote that “significant evidence” has surfaced indicating that many of the migrants imprisoned in El Salvador are not connected to the gang “and thus languish in a foreign prison on flimsy, even frivolous, accusations.”

Boasberg gave the administration one week to come up with a manner in which the "at least 137" people can make those claims, even while they're formally in the custody of El Salvador. It's the latest milestone in the monthslong legal saga over the fate of deportees imprisoned at El Salvador’s notorious Terrorism Confinement Center.

After Trump invoked the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 in March and prepared to fly planeloads of accused gang members to El Salvador and out of the jurisdiction of U.S. courts, Boasberg ordered them to turn the planes around. This demand was ignored. Boasberg has found probable cause that the administration committed contempt of court after the flight landed. El Salvador President Nayib Bukele posted a taunting message on social media — reposted by some of Trump's top aides — that read “Oopsie, too late.”

The U.S. Supreme Court later ruled that anyone targeted under the AEA has the right to appeal to a judge to contest their designation as an enemy of the state. Boasberg, in his latest, ruling wrote that he was simply applying that principle to those who'd been removed.

Boasberg said the administration “plainly deprived” the immigrants of a chance to challenge their removals before they were put on flights. Therefore, he says the government must handle the migrants cases now as if they “would have been if the Government had not provided constitutionally inadequate process.”

The Department of Justice did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The administration and its supporters have targeted Boasberg for his initial order halting deportations and his contempt inquiry, part of their growing battle with the judiciary as it puts the brakes on Trump's efforts to unilaterally remake government. The fight has been particularly harsh in the realm of immigration, where Trump has repeatedly said it'd be impossible to protect the country from dangerous immigrants if each one has his or her day in court."

Judge says migrants sent to El Salvador prison must get a chance to challenge their removals

 

 

Well the article suggests that the judge says there must be a method.  But it does not say that the method must involve a court or the like. Just that there must be a challenge to make sure they can contest the ruling, And moreover this ONLY applies to these specific people in the ruling. Not to all migrants at large. This seems to be because they're being deported pretty much right into the jail of the other country.

And i note the language... 'work on a way', etc. 

And i see trump did bring at least some of them back. 

I don't know dude, trump's obviously interested in fast tracking this stuff but i don't see  any indication of a legal issue with the overall program so far and it sounds like these are more legal disputes than totalitarianism. 

 

[gatomontes99]

It's a hoot that someone from a country with the greatest human rights violation in the history of man is worried about due process in another country. 

 

There is no violation of due process. 

There is no fascism. 

There is a long standing precedent of separating families to enforce the consequences of violating the law. 

[User]

9 hours ago, blackbird said:

Nonsense.  There are enough examples of the Trump administration outright ignoring court orders to show this is a lawless administration.   

This short ten minute video talks about some of that.

Bing Videos

No, not nonsense. Trump challenging rulings within the legal system is not ignoring court orders. 

 

[Deluge]

16 hours ago, blackbird said:

What is happening in a country which was once supposed to be a leading country for human rights and freedoms is shocking.

"

The group has collected dozens of reports from immigration attorneys whose clients were immediately arrested after their court appearances only to be placed into expedited removal proceedings where they can be rapidly deported without an opportunity to appear before a judge.

Detainees include immigrants of all ages, including families with young children and toddlers as young as two and three years old, according to the group’s analysis of recent arrests.

In at least one case, ICE agents detained children who were in court with their parents and attempted to arrest a mother with a nursing infant, the report found."

Outrage after California fourth grader is detained by ICE agents during immigration hearing

Trust me, once we clear out Biden's guests, you know, the illegal aliens, it'll feel a lot less fascistic to you marxists. 

Be patient, it'll all be just fine.