Yugoslavia/Czechoslovakia - Peace in Europe post Soviet style

[August1991]

The Velvet Revolution. We now have Slovakia and the Czech Republic.

More violently, we now have Serbia and Croatia. Slovenia. All separate states along with others.

=======

We must accept a divided Ukraine:

-Galicia in the west, Lviv (Lemberg) as its capital.

-Donbass (or whatever) in the East, Kiev as its capital.

 

[User]

3 minutes ago, August1991 said:

The Velvet Revolution. We now have Slovakia and the Czech Republic.

More violently, we now have Serbia and Croatia. Slovenia. All separate states along with others.

=======

We must accept a divided Ukraine:

-Galicia in the west, Lviv (Lemberg) as its capital.

-Donbass (or whatever) in the East, Kiev as its capital.

 

We don't have to accept any such thing. 

This is not Slovakia and the Czech Republic which peacefully divided into 2 different republics. Russia has invaded Ukraine. 

 

[August1991]

You Americans did this with Missouri and Kansas.

Heck, you created West Virginia in an attempt to avoid a Civil War.

[August1991]

2 minutes ago, User said:

......

Russia has invaded Ukraine. 

 

Disagree.

I was in Crimea after 2014. It was not an invasion.

[User]

Just now, August1991 said:

Disagree.

I was in Crimea after 2014. It was not an invasion.

What do you think is going on right now?

 

[August1991]

Europeans need a new structure of peace.

[User]

2 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Europeans need a new structure of peace.

If by Europeans and peace, you mean Russia should stop invading Ukraine, sure. 

[August1991]

For the rest of us, I kinda like a duopoly between China and the US.

[August1991]

4 minutes ago, User said:

If by Europeans and peace, you mean Russia should stop invading Ukraine, sure. 

Germany (and France) invaded Russia - make no mistake.

Ukraine is a misnomer.

======

My broader point is that Europe no longer matters.

[August1991]

For those that notice: Kinda fun arguing with English/American Wikipedia.

[Moonlight Graham]

39 minutes ago, User said:

We don't have to accept any such thing. 

This is not Slovakia and the Czech Republic which peacefully divided into 2 different republics. Russia has invaded Ukraine. 

 

Agreed.  Annexing territory through military invasion is illegal under international law and should never be accepted or legitimized.  The West should support and arm Ukraine until Russia decides to leave.

[August1991]

11 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Agreed.  Annexing territory through military invasion is illegal under international law and should never be accepted or legitimized.  The West should support and arm Ukraine until Russia decides to leave.

Note to MG: User is an AI player (LLM) - trained largely on English Wikipedia.

Edited yesterday at 04:15 AM by August1991

[Moonlight Graham]

26 minutes ago, August1991 said:

For the rest of us, I kinda like a duopoly between China and the US.

The last Cold War was horribly violent and caused a lot of death and instability across the world for half a century.  Western global hegemony means liberal democracies rule the world.  I'd prefer it stay that way.  The USSR as a superpower was not good for the world and China won't be either.  Nor India.

It's fine to criticize some US foreign policy, but the left hates US power.  The problem is that the left always compares the US to perfection, and never to totalitarian dictatorships like China and the USSR who are the alternative.  The grass isn't always greener so be careful what you wish for.

When people say US foreign policy is evil, the question is: compared to who?  They obviously aren't perfect, but there's no better behaving great power in human history....and it's not even close.  The British Empire?  Napoleonic France  Germany?  Imperial Japan?  Roman or Byzantine or Ottoman empires?  Please.

[Moonlight Graham]

13 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Note to MG: User is an AI player (LLM) - trained largely on English Wikipedia.

LOL what?  How do you know this?

[August1991]

Just now, Moonlight Graham said:

The last Cold War was horribly violent and caused a lot of death and instability across the world for half a century.

....

Disagree.

The period of 1914-1945 was horribly violent.

The Cold War was peaceful. We got along. Europe had a structure of peace.

Since 1991, we are in flux.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 minute ago, August1991 said:

Disagree.

The period of 1914-1945 was horribly violent.

The Cold War was peaceful. We got along. Europe had a structure of peace.

Since 1991, we are in flux.

No, post-WW2 NATO countries made peace, including Western Europe.  Eastern Europe and the rest of the world did not.

Ask Latin America, Africa, and Asia about Cold War violence.  The world extends beyond your own street.

[August1991]

13 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

No, post-WW2 NATO countries made peace, including Western Europe.  Eastern Europe and the rest of the world did not.

Ask Latin America, Africa, and Asia about Cold War violence.  The world extends beyond your own street.

Very strongly disagree. Ask any person alive today. Ask about their family history.

The 30 years between 1914 and 1945 fundamentally changed their family history.

====

In Summer 1914, Europe had many reigning monarchs. By Summer 1945, Stalin and Truman had to meet in Potsdam since Berlin was destroyed.

 

[User]

10 hours ago, August1991 said:

Very strongly disagree. Ask any person alive today. Ask about their family history.

The 30 years between 1914 and 1945 fundamentally changed their family history.

====

In Summer 1914, Europe had many reigning monarchs. By Summer 1945, Stalin and Truman had to meet in Potsdam since Berlin was destroyed.

 

post-WW2 NATO countries made peace

Then you focus on WW1 to WW2 history...

 

[eyeball]

22 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

there's no better behaving great power in human history..

Go tell it to the victims of dictators, autocrats and warlords the US sicced on several hapless populations around the world.

When the Shiniest Beacon for liberty and freedom behaves this way...well, just take a look around the world.

How do you think so much of it got this way?

[Moonlight Graham]

23 hours ago, August1991 said:

Very strongly disagree. Ask any person alive today. Ask about their family history.

The 30 years between 1914 and 1945 fundamentally changed their family history.

====

In Summer 1914, Europe had many reigning monarchs. By Summer 1945, Stalin and Truman had to meet in Potsdam since Berlin was destroyed.

 

I'm not arguing pre-1945 was less violent than the Cold War.  Pre-1945 was a multipolar world order vs a bipolar order during the Cold War.  Post-1991 has been a unipolar world order with the US as the sole superpower and global hegemon.

It's an odd thing to argue that Canada and the world will be safer with a strong China.  It's already creating a security dilemma.  The same thing that triggered an arms race, the Cuban missile crisis, wars like Vietnam/Korea, and countless regime changes, proxy wars, and civil wars in the 3rd world.  Much more dangerous than a few terrorist groups blowing up some buildings.  Ukraine is a proxy war, and Taiwan would be also.

The fewer totalitarian superpowers the better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_dilemma

Quote

In international relations, the security dilemma (also referred to as the spiral model) is when the increase in one state's security (such as increasing its military strength) leads other states to fear for their own security (because they do not know if the security-increasing state intends to use its growing military for offensive purposes).^[1][2] Consequently, security-increasing measures can lead to tensions, escalation or conflict with one or more other parties, producing an outcome which no party truly desires

[Moonlight Graham]

On 5/21/2025 at 11:40 PM, August1991 said:

My broader point is that Europe no longer matters.

Western Europe destroyed itself during WWII, which is why it no longer matters.  In its ashes rose the American and Soviet empires.  The lesson in Western Europe was to make peace with each other while deferring to the US for its protection against another existential threat (communism).

Western Europe also finally became all democratic regimes after WWII (by force of the Americans).  Democracy and human rights is a threat to the Chinese regime, not to mention Putin...and Trump.  A single person or party can't have total control when they share power with the people.

[eyeball]

6 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Democracy and human rights is a threat to the Chinese regime, not to mention Putin...and Trump.  A single person or party can't have total control when they share power with the people.

Trump and Putin supporters are fine with not sharing if that's the case. 

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Go tell it to the victims of dictators, autocrats and warlords the US sicced on several hapless populations around the world.

When the Shiniest Beacon for liberty and freedom behaves this way...well, just take a look around the world.

How do you think so much of it got this way?

As I said, the US has been far from perfect.  However things also aren't as simple as they first appear.

Here's a question for you:  do you think if the US left the middle-east alone those countries would have more self-determination and possibly even more democracy?  Or do you think Russia and China would immediately fill the power vacuum, rig all the elections in their favour and/or do their own regime changes installing pro-Russia/China despots?

And how comfortable would you feel with Russia and China having the control the US has had over most of the world's oil supply for which our economy and military is highly dependent on?  Do you remember the 1973 oil crisis?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

And how comfortable would you be with Russia and China running the world like the US has the last 30 years?  The grass isn't always greener...

 

[Moonlight Graham]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Trump and Putin supporters are fine with not sharing if that's the case. 

All fine and dandy for those supporters until their own rights start getting taken away.