The Decline of Free-Trade?

[500channelsurfer]

There is evidence that free trade is in decline.

This is not something short-term that is only attributable to Trump.

Remember when Brexit occurred? Brexit was not merely a rejection of EU control over left-behind citizens of the UK; it was a an attempt by those who voted to leave the EU as a re-imposition of national control over the economy. The Brexit referendum was done by the UK's Conservative party. And what have conservative parties in western nations campaigned on in that year and since? Who have they expanded their tent to? Workers. Think Doug Ford and Pierre Poilievre, who have been marketing themselves to the working-class. Donald Trump has done the same and been successful in two elections by doing this.

Of course immediately after Brexit, the UK government quickly went to work promoting and engaging in trade and trade negotiations. This was to save its economy. The fact that the Brexit referendum happened and the people voted to leave shows there is popular support for more local and nationalistic economics rather than internationalism, and that mainstream political parties can lean in this direction when their constituents continually request so. Ford and Poilievre also would very likely prefer to keep the free-trade status quo, but as Ford has shown, they are entirely willing to put up barriers when they encounter resistance.

Edited March 14 by 500channelsurfer

[Barquentine]

7 hours ago, 500channelsurfer said:

Of course immediately after Brexit, the UK government quickly went to work promoting and engaging in trade and trade negotiations. This was to save its economy. The fact that the Brexit referendum happened and the people voted to leave shows there is popular support for more local and nationalistic economics rather than internationalism, and that mainstream political parties can lean in this direction when their constituents continually request so.

And Carney was chastised for speaking out against Brexit, but history proved him right.

Some politicians know populism is an easy route to power, often harnessing what Trump calls his beloved under-educated, but greater wealth is achieved through Free, properly regulated trade.

[SpankyMcFarland]

We see this conflict across the world between the Somewheres and the Anywheres: those rooted to one place, usually poorer and less educated who are more deeply attached to traditions; and the educated, mobile minority who prioritise openness, autonomy and cognitive ability while supporting immigration and higher education. Brexit was an example of the two tribes voting on an issue and Trump was another. Anywheres regard society as a shop and Somewheres see it as a home. I think the same division is occurring in the developing world too, eg Iran. Politicians will have to learn how to bridge this divide if they want to attract majority support. 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/22/the-road-to-somewhere-david-goodhart-populist-revolt-future-politics

 

Edited March 14 by SpankyMcFarland

[August1991]

19 hours ago, 500channelsurfer said:

There is evidence that free trade is in decline.

This is not something short-term that is only attributable to Trump.

....

I agree.

====

From 1990 to 2010, or so - people could do what they wanted.

States (government bureaucrats) now impose rules on  us,

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, August1991 said:

 

From 1990 to 2010, or so - people could do what they wanted.

States (government bureaucrats) now impose rules on  us,

Which rules specifically?

The economy grew substantially with globalism. Clearly people were doing better. 

And not just the top wealthiest top earners the real estate sector doubled in size, which meant investors big and small.... Real estate agents, renovators, home furnishing sales.. 

Are these people all against globalism?

[Nationalist]

On 3/14/2025 at 12:54 PM, Barquentine said:

And Carney was chastised for speaking out against Brexit, but history proved him right.

Some politicians know populism is an easy route to power, often harnessing what Trump calls his beloved under-educated, but greater wealth is achieved through Free, properly regulated trade.

Bullshit! Free trade and globalism is an insult to common sense. It destroys everything it touches.

The globalist dream is over...and thank Gawd!

[Barquentine]

10 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Free trade and globalism is an insult to common sense. It destroys everything it touches.

So naive.

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, Barquentine said:

So naive.

So brainwashed.

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

So brainwashed.

I mean it's a matter of numbers. 

 

As I said lots of people did better with freer trade and now when it's at risk of pulling back we see a recession so....

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I mean it's a matter of numbers. 

 

As I said lots of people did better with freer trade and now when it's at risk of pulling back we see a recession so....

We see a recession????

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

We see a recession????

Pretty sure there is a recession coming.

[Barquentine]

On 3/14/2025 at 5:29 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

the Somewheres and the Anywheres: those rooted to one place, usually poorer and less educated who are more deeply attached to traditions; and the educated, mobile minority who prioritise openness, autonomy and cognitive ability

Apparently even within countries. I read a news report that wealthy Upper-class Americans are moving from red states to blue, for economics and choice (like abortion).

And while it's rational to want local control over things, I think a majority of Britons would like a do-over on Brexit.

[Nationalist]

50 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Pretty sure there is a recession coming.

Ah...we will see...

[August1991]

On 3/17/2025 at 9:41 PM, Nationalist said:

Bullshit! Free trade and globalism is an insult to common sense. It destroys everything it touches.

The globalist dream is over...and thank Gawd!

I strongly disagree.

=====

The simple fact that you, Nationalist, can send me your message is proof that you're wrong.

[Michael Hardner]

On 3/17/2025 at 9:41 PM, Nationalist said:

Bullshit! Free trade and globalism is an insult to common sense. It destroys everything it touches.

The globalist dream is over...and thank Gawd!

Economics disagrees with you.

[Nationalist]

@August1991 and @Michael Hardner

So you boys like the shape of the economy now? You really dig the inflation, the outsourcing, the lack of manufacturing?

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

@August1991 and @Michael Hardner

So you boys like the shape of the economy now? You really dig the inflation, the outsourcing, the lack of manufacturing?

Do you think global trade has "caused" inflation ? 
Do you think outsourcing is "bad" ?
Do you think manufacturing needs to stay in Canada ?

Current situations can't be used to retro-criticize decisions made in the 90s, 80s, 70s.  Even manufacturing plants aren't likely to make big decisions due to the trade wars.. at least they shouldn't be.
 

[Nationalist]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Do you think global trade has "caused" inflation ? 
Do you think outsourcing is "bad" ?
Do you think manufacturing needs to stay in Canada ?

Current situations can't be used to retro-criticize decisions made in the 90s, 80s, 70s.  Even manufacturing plants aren't likely to make big decisions due to the trade wars.. at least they shouldn't be.
 

I think globalism itself has caused inflation. For instance, the globalist edict to stop using fossil fuels.

I think outsourcing is gross. It removes jobs from our own people.

Yes of course. Like the mask issue we had. We need to be at least close to self sufficiency.

Oh but decisions made back then directly affect us now.

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 3/18/2025 at 7:14 PM, Barquentine said:

Apparently even within countries. I read a news report that wealthy Upper-class Americans are moving from red states to blue, for economics and choice (like abortion).

And while it's rational to want local control over things, I think a majority of Britons would like a do-over on Brexit.

One horrible problem with Brexit - negotiating new trade deals with large economies like the US, China, India and even the EU itself. Britain could have asked Canada on the challenges there. 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Oh but decisions made back then directly affect us now.

So where were you back in the day?

Bad-mouthing critics of these decisions as capitalist-hating commies would be my guess.

[Nationalist]

34 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So where were you back in the day?

Bad-mouthing critics of these decisions as capitalist-hating commies would be my guess.

In the 70's I was in school.

In the 80's I was in collage and abusing myself with a bar-band.

In the 90's I was in Prague working at our embassy as the IT manager.  

All that time I was a Libbie.

At the end of the 90's we came back with daughter in tow. That's when I began really paying attention to politics and realized that globalism is self-destructive.

Edited March 24 by Nationalist

[eyeball]

58 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

At the end of the 90's we came back with daughter in tow. That's when I began really paying attention to politics and realized that globalism is self-destructive.

And started bad-mouthing people who'd realized that for decades.

LMAO!

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

And started bad-mouthing people who'd realized that for decades.

LMAO!

Huh? Is that a joke?

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

1. I think globalism itself has caused inflation. For instance, the globalist edict to stop using fossil fuels.

2. I think outsourcing is gross. It removes jobs from our own people.

3. Yes of course. Like the mask issue we had. We need to be at least close to self sufficiency.

4. Oh but decisions made back then directly affect us now.

1. Interesting that you put 'globalism' in a bucket that includes 'global consciousness', environmentalism and so on together with global trade.  Maybe not a bad idea.  But, as with anything, the more you pack into the car the more difficult it is to keep track of it all.  Some globalist initiatives (using your definition) are good for inflation and some are bad.  The current inflation probably has more diverse root causes than that sticker you put on your car with a smiling planet earth hugging a bird.

2.  It also creates jobs and reduces prices.  To make 'reducing jobs' a 'gross thing', by definition, then you have to include automation right ?  And technology in general.  But, again, it's your definition and your opinion.  Who am I to say it's not gross for you ?

3. I agree that special cases need to stay in Canada, but I also don't trust politicians to decide that because they will carve out their own little parts for themselves/their constituents.  Not sure if something as simple as a mask needs to stay on shore, but energy and food do to a degree.  And media, especially.

4. Yes, and it's hard to believe that we are much better off in a macro sense.  I said: it's hard to believe.  But it's true on the whole.  If you acknowledge that that *might* be true, then we have the next phase of THAT discussion which is: why does everything seem tougher ?

[Nationalist]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Interesting that you put 'globalism' in a bucket that includes 'global consciousness', environmentalism and so on together with global trade.  Maybe not a bad idea.  But, as with anything, the more you pack into the car the more difficult it is to keep track of it all.  Some globalist initiatives (using your definition) are good for inflation and some are bad.  The current inflation probably has more diverse root causes than that sticker you put on your car with a smiling planet earth hugging a bird.

2.  It also creates jobs and reduces prices.  To make 'reducing jobs' a 'gross thing', by definition, then you have to include automation right ?  And technology in general.  But, again, it's your definition and your opinion.  Who am I to say it's not gross for you ?

3. I agree that special cases need to stay in Canada, but I also don't trust politicians to decide that because they will carve out their own little parts for themselves/their constituents.  Not sure if something as simple as a mask needs to stay on shore, but energy and food do to a degree.  And media, especially.

4. Yes, and it's hard to believe that we are much better off in a macro sense.  I said: it's hard to believe.  But it's true on the whole.  If you acknowledge that that *might* be true, then we have the next phase of THAT discussion which is: why does everything seem tougher ?

1. Global consciousness? They dumped on fossil fuels Mike. The send millions of jobs to India, China, anywhere that slave labour is ok. They literally siphoned wealth out of our nation. They should be put in fcking jail!

2. Where does outsourcing create jobs for Canadians?

3. So dispense with the globalist ideas at the government level and incentivise bringing jobs back.

4. Mike...everything is tougher HERE! We allowed our wealth to be siphoned out. Everything built by our forefathers...hollowed out.

Edited March 25 by Nationalist