American Patriotism

[Nuclear]

With Canadaian independence though, they still hold strong ties to their parent country the UK in their currency and their calling everything Royal and such. I'm not trying to insult Canada. Just citing experiences from when I was there.

I was quite certain the British were siding with the south...I'll look into that as you pose a good argument there. I did hear about a 'what if' fantasy where the Civil WAr ended in the Confederacy exisiting and how WW1 would have trench warfare in the states as the North would have gone with Germany(no lousitania or zimmerman telegram and such) and the South with England. Thought the idea was interesting. I'll check the facts though.

It's sad WE pay for Israeli's defense. Yeah, they're a close friend to us but why are we footing the bill...

I think something a president should finally do as opposed to only talkiong about is to cut down on gvoernment spending. There are so many people on welfare who doens't deserve it or don't need it or are too lazy to work. I think a flat tax is a good sollution too.

So...yeah...that American Patriotism. I'm a Patriot and proud of it.....

[nova_satori]

But doesn't Canada have a very strong French influence? After all, French is spoken there just as much as English.

I was quite certain the British were siding with the south...I'll look into that as you pose a good argument there. I did hear about a 'what if' fantasy where the Civil WAr ended in the Confederacy exisiting and how WW1 would have trench warfare in the states as the North would have gone with Germany(no lousitania or zimmerman telegram and such) and the South with England. Thought the idea was interesting. I'll check the facts though.

Both Britain and France saw that a ally in America would provide some leverage aganist a very powerful north, but after gettysburg, I seriously doubt Britian thought that the South would win. Hmmm....what if senarios are usually interesting. One I come upon monthly is of Hawaiian soverignty and the takeover of the Hawaiian islands. It was illegal, BUT being a US terroritory and state is much preferable then having brutal Japanese Overlords, all being because I live in Hawaii.

It's sad WE pay for Israeli's defense. Yeah, they're a close friend to us but why are we footing the bill...

And we give them weapons that will ultaimtely kick our own butts. I'll look for the evidence on a Israeli sale of the famed Patriot Anti-air defense battery to the Communist Chinese. Backstabbers. Never forgive them for that.

I think something a president should finally do as opposed to only talkiong about is to cut down on gvoernment spending. There are so many people on welfare who doens't deserve it or don't need it or are too lazy to work. I think a flat tax is a good sollution too.

What I don't understand about the current plan is how we are going to be able to spend $87 billion on Iraq at the same time as cut taxes and lower the amount of revenue to pay for this $87 billion new marshal plan. Uh...guys, $87 billion - $60 billion leaves us in debt. Welfare is abused. Badly. While some need it, many don't. I don't believe in cash handouts. Food stamps sure, clothing, sure. Straight cash, no. Flat tax...perhaps. However, life is never that simple.

Hmmm...I'm glad we are sorta on the same page.

[Nuclear]

We are on a similar page, at least the same chapter.

I seriously think that, other than what we've already put out for Iraq, that Iraq's oil should go to helping pay for rebuilding the country, starting a government, and building a foundation of security for Iraq. There is no reason the US should have to pay for the whole ball of wax. We did it for our own security and have more than paid for it, in money and in lives, so from here on out, why can't Iraq take care of their own? They DO have one of the most valuable resources on the planet....

[nova_satori]

Well, should the US convert to Biodiesel or somehow make a economical breakthrough in Hydrogen cells, oil will become useless. Byproducts from oil, such as plastics can be manufactured from other substances, such as corn oil (i'm not joking, it's pretty nifty).

I wonder if we compeltely abandon the Middle East, would alot of our problems dry up?

[newglory]

Patroitism in America will only be found in rare instances such as: before a war, after an attack, or after a victory from war is achieved. The rest of our existence as Americans is spent criticizing a government none of us seem willing to change. It would seem to me that this is a bit oxymoronical. Thus I believe that patroitism in America is confused with the terror each of us feels when our "normal, routine life" is threatened.

Don't mistake me for an anti-American. I am not anti-American by any stretch of the word. I am anti- minority rule though. The basis of this country was to allow the majority (complete opposite of minority) decide who is worthy the make the laws of the land. Recently, it has seemed minority groups have "sqeeked" the loudest, and politicans have turned a listening ear. The majority decides not to speak for the fear of appearing rascist or prejudice. It is this type of fear that allows the minority to continue on it's rampage, it's rampage that will doom the great freedoms and liberties we once enjoyed.

I will warn you once, and only this once; if a majority will not reclaim it's rightful place, the minority replacing it will rule the land. It's rule will ruin this nation.

[Nuclear]

For being new to politics, you have worded yourself very well. Very well said.

I agree with what you're saying. The loud minority would argue that for the majority to put it's foot down would not be "Politically correct"

I was in college when 9-11 happened and heard many stories about how our own American Flag was not allowed to fly or be displayed for fear of it offending our foreign guests.....

That was shocking....

I went to Montreal once and saw the Canadian flag flying everywhere. I was NOT offended. I was in Canada. I didn't expect to see the Stars and Stripes.

[Black Dog]

Patroitism in America will only be found in rare instances such as: before a war, after an attack, or after a victory from war is achieved. The rest of our existence as Americans is spent criticizing a government none of us seem willing to change. It would seem to me that this is a bit oxymoronical. Thus I believe that patroitism in America is confused with the terror each of us feels when our "normal, routine life" is threatened.

Dependas on what you mean by patriotism: crticizing the government is the duty of every patriot. Blindly falling in line behind the symbols of a nation (like we saw after 9-11) is a derelection of duty.

Recently, it has seemed minority groups have "sqeeked" the loudest, and politicans have turned a listening ear. The majority decides not to speak for the fear of appearing rascist or prejudice. It is this type of fear that allows the minority to continue on it's rampage, it's rampage that will doom the great freedoms and liberties we once enjoyed.

I will warn you once, and only this once; if a majority will not reclaim it's rightful place, the minority replacing it will rule the land. It's rule will ruin this nation.

You're right, but not.

I have a sneaking suspicion based on your comment that "majority decides not to speak for the fear of appearing rascist or prejudice" (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the minority you speak of are the usual hobgoblins the right-wing likes to blame for the decline of civilization: feminists, unions, environmental advocates, and others who get tarred with the "special interest" brush. Again, if I'm, wrong, I apologize.

However, you are correct in that the U.S. is being run by a small minority. I'm talking about the 1 per cent of the population that controls 50 per cent of the wealth: the upper echelons of society who see the country as nothing more than a tool for them to make a profit off. These are the people who bend the ears and grease the wheels in the corridors of power: just take a look at the current administration. You canprettyy much draw a straight line between it's policies and the interests of their supporters in Corporate America. these same people are the ones selling the flag-worshipping brand of jingoism that passes for true patriotism today. Any yahoo with a Stars and Stripes on his car aerial can call himself a patriot these days: he may not vote, or bother to get informed about what's heppening to his country or question th eactions of his government, but goddamnit! he's a patriot.

I was in college when 9-11 happened and heard many stories about how our own American Flag was not allowed to fly or be displayed for fear of it offending our foreign guests.....

Sounds like an urban legend to me.

[Thomas Burke]

I disagree completely with the idea that an American patriot is a man that will fight to bring Iraq under the domination of the United States.

It is a true that a warrior policy is sometimes called for to keep order and achieve dominance but these attacks in the Muslim world are clearly misguided or false.

The United States government (more specifically Bush and the CIA) has already admitted to lying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

More to the point, if this is meant to stop terrorism (with no evidence to say that archenemies Osama and Saddam collaberating) than why not consider the points that attacking men with the white flag up, bombing villages and innocent cities, dropping pamphelts across the country telling of the "liberation of Iraq" will cause at least as much resentment as gratitude to the government of the United States.

Expect more terrorists to appear because with a foreign policy like this, we cannot avoid being hated as the British Empire was hated in the 19th century during its height of power. This will eventually bring our fall.

[FastNed]

Hello, newglory. There is much to think about in what you have said but I do not concur. I believe that patriotic feelings exist within the majority of Americans but it just isn't something we normally express absent cause. We reserve such displays for the Fourth of July, Memorial Day and such; it's like being 'manly' or a 'gentleman', normally if you have to talk about it, it makes people wonder.

On 9.12, I attempted to describe the feelings and scene in America to a friend abroad - a fellow attorney from Vermont working with USAID in the Ukraine - and I had spoken with my Brother in Texas and friends in Florida and Hawaii to gather their thoughts and observations. What I described and expressed was the quiet contemplative mood, in part sadness and part questioning who had dared to do such a thing to Americans but what was most astonishing was the spontaneous display of the Flag. Everywhere there were American Flags!

This display of patriotism came from within the American people, uncalled for by any politician or media commentator and was a spontaneous expression of the belief in "our" America. The America which remains the home of the brave and the land of the free - and it is difficult to say or write those words because it is a naked expression of our feelings which we usually refrain from exposing. It isn't 'manly' to display such emotion! What was absent was terror or panic but instead the feelings were of quiet determination that there would be a blood price extracted for what had been done and that we would pay the Ferryman's Fee for each and every one of our dead. The "Street" the media elite and politicians ignore is the "American Street" and they make a fatal error when they do so.

As I have mentioned before, minorities should not be your focus, they are simply cast as the eternal victims by the Tranzi's who believe they have been 'selected' to rule us. Read some of the nattering from Nova for more on this.

Black Dog, you know, I hope one day you are quite successful and make a great deal of money. You will then discover that it is not the root of all evil. Being in the top one or three percent is an opportunity available to any American and those of us who get there are too damned busy to be either interested or bothered to run the Country - marxist theology notwithstanding!

As to terrorism and terrorists, there is only one suitable response. Terrorists and those who provide aid, comfort, shelter and support are to be put down like rabid dogs when and where found. Open season, no bag limit. Leave no live enemy behind.

[Derek]

Patriotism, to me, is standing up for your country in a time of need.

I would like to take a look back in WWII when the British showed remarkable patriotism for their country when they were on the brink of defeat. That was a defining moment in their country's history.

I remember after Sept. 11 when i would drive down my city's street and see an American Flag in every window.

That was a small bit of Patriotism, but it was Patriotism

It just takes a major event like that to bring it out.

[Thomas Burke]

As to terrorism and terrorists, there is only one suitable response. Terrorists and those who provide aid, comfort, shelter and support are to be put down like rabid dogs when and where found. Open season, no bag limit. Leave no live enemy behind.

Apparently you don't get the point. It was because of our foreign policies that 9/11 happened. And it is because we continue such foreign policies that they will continue to appear.

I expect that it will be the Arabs that cause our downfall. Primarily because the economy is dependent on the Middle East but mostly because we are making the situation worse, not better.

[Derek]

You expect the arabs will cause our downfall, no it won't be the arabs. The only way i can see our country coming down is in a nuclear war, otherwise, i don't see how the ARABS would cause the downfall of the USA.

[FastNed]

Hello, Thomas, welcome to the Forum. You and I have a basic disconnect on our concepts of reality.

I believe we were attacked for what we are, not for anything which we have done. To those who believe there is only "one" true religion and whose mindset is in the Seventh Century, we are anathema!

But let me give you this: Even if what you say is 100 percent correct, so what! Those who attacked us on 9.11 made a fatal mistake. When they came to America and killed our women and children, they committed suicide.

By your logic, we should have surrendered to the Japanese in 1941. But we did not and after we had killed enough of them, those who survived discovered they could bear to live with us after all. In due time, all of Islam will accept that killing Americans is not conducive to the growth of Islam. We will make damned certain they learn that lesson.

[Black Dog]

You expect the arabs will cause our downfall, no it won't be the arabs. The only way i can see our country coming down is in a nuclear war, otherwise, i don't see how the ARABS would cause the downfall of the USA.

Do I detect the faint whiff of...nah?

The American empire will fall. I believe the seeds of that downfall are being sown right now, as the nation's leadership has been hijacked by a cabal of ideologically driven headcases interested in nothing more than remaking America and the world in their own image (by force if necessary). As a cresult, the American economy is staggering, it's military forces are being spread thin (Syrai and Iran can breathe safely knowing that American forces are still tied down in Iraq) and it's unilateralist policies are alienating former allies and atagonizing its foes.

[FastNed]

Black Dog, there are a substantial number of Americans (and Canadians, as well, I dare say) who believe that when someone goes to the extreme of killing your women and children, all discourse is at an end. There remains no useful additional politics, discourse or diplomacy to be attempted. It is all over but the killing - unless, of course, you are one of those who are faint of heart, weak in conviction and lack the courage to defend you and yours. Buy a Koran and convert if you find yourself in this grouping.

Once matters reach this point, it no longer matters who was right and who was wrong; slights, insult and injustices of the past no longer have relevance. Theories about 'root causes' become a diversion for air-heads while those of us who have a grasp of reality defend our loved ones and our way of life.

You mentioned:

"it's unilateralist policies are alienating former allies and antagonizing its foes."

That the Tranzi's of France, Germany and much of the EU and UN oppose us is a feature not a bug. This is good evidence that we are on the correct path and will not follow their lead and talk a problem to death while our Nation and people die around us. Antagonize our foes - what a pity! What would you suggest, that we tell them: "Well, hey, the kids were a pain and the wife was a b*tch so small loss. I should have divorced them. Let's just forget about it!"? Perhaps that is your view but it damned well is not mine, nor is the view of a majority of Americans! We know what is required to pay the Ferryman's Fee and we will usher them into an American version of Hell as we do so. Dante Alighieri meets Edgar Allan Poe.

History is replete with peoples who followed your course - color them extinct.

[Black Dog]

Once matters reach this point, it no longer matters who was right and who was wrong; slights, insult and injustices of the past no longer have relevance. Theories about 'root causes' become a diversion for air-heads while those of us who have a grasp of reality defend our loved ones and our way of life.

Those ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. The war on terror is not winnable. You could wipe out millions of "terrorists" but, like Hydra, more would spring up with more motivation to deal death to your innocents. The path you choose, while cloacked in noble ideas of self-defense, will only ensure the death of more innocents.

[Thomas Burke]

You expect the arabs will cause our downfall, no it won't be the arabs. The only way i can see our country coming down is in a nuclear war, otherwise, i don't see how the ARABS would cause the downfall of the USA.

Withdrawing supply of oil (ever read Dune?) is an easy way to do so. More would be needed however. Another way the Arabs could cause our downfall is simply by changing their supply to others. If they feel a deal with China is better for them, then they would do it. The United States would not at its current state, risk war with a nation backed by a nuclear power (China) that is allied to another nuclear power (NOrth Korea). Yet another way is through terrorist acts. Terrorism can destroy the United States through a planned attack that would make the 9/11 terrorists (I hesitate to say Osama as it has still not been proven that he did it) ashamed of their "genius". Economic and political catastrophes would topple the United States' government power. No problem.

[Thomas Burke]

Hello, Thomas, welcome to the Forum. You and I have a basic disconnect on our concepts of reality.

I believe we were attacked for what we are, not for anything which we have done. To those who believe there is only "one" true religion and whose mindset is in the Seventh Century, we are anathema!

But let me give you this: Even if what you say is 100 percent correct, so what! Those who attacked us on 9.11 made a fatal mistake. When they came to America and killed our women and children, they committed suicide.

By your logic, we should have surrendered to the Japanese in 1941. But we did not and after we had killed enough of them, those who survived discovered they could bear to live with us after all. In due time, all of Islam will accept that killing Americans is not conducive to the growth of Islam. We will make damned certain they learn that lesson.

First of all, look at my earlier post. We still haven't proven that Muslim terrorists commited the acts and though it is highly possible there are several groups that unlike Al-Qaeda, actually claimed responsibility.

Second of all, this is not true. Though this is the motive for some in Al-Qaeda it is not the main motive for many or the origin of the secondary motive. The first motive is the fact of our support of the Israeli in their destruction of Palestinian homes and lives as well as our monopoly over Middle Eastern economies. Look at the beginning of the last breakouts, shortly before 9/11 (about 6 months-1 year earlier). Palestinians, angry at Israeli occupation threw rocks at Israeli soldiers (armed with US guns). In response the Israeli shot at the Palestinians, many young teenagers. In this way the Israeli soldiers reacted inappropriately.

Third of all, my reasoning is probably not one hundred percent correct but it is very accurate. And also, prove to me that they killed children.

Fourth of all, my logic is not flawed. Yours is, I am afraid. Japan had a base of operations. Terrorist organizations do not which is what the government seems to not understand. We are fighting organizations that can operate right within the United States. The Japanese-terrorist analogy is therefore flawed in that the kamikazes attacked aircraft carriers which were not required to retaliate though helpful. The terrorists on the other hand can strike us at whatever position they want whether it be the White House or the Pentagon. They can strike us right there and we would only know when it was too late.

Fifth of all, how do you propose to teach them a lesson? By making them hate you? This sounds like United States is an abusive parent that beats their child everytime they annoy them. What the terrorists did is wrong but you cannot harm them by attacking the so-called terrorist-controlled nations (like Saddam had anything to do with 9/11). This causes resentment which is the reason that they attacked in the first place.

Unless people like you are taken out of office the United States Empire's doom will be closer than ever.

[Hugo]

Withdrawing supply of oil (ever read Dune?) is an easy way to do so. More would be needed however.

This is very naive. Firstly, China is an economic pygmy and simply can't afford to buy all the oil the Arabs want to sell. If they want to cut off the Americans and sell to China, the Sheikhs had better be prepared to take a significant pay cut - and they are too materialistic and selfish to do that.

Secondly, there is oil in Alaska, Texas, the North Sea and plenty in Russia. If the Arabs stop selling oil to the Americans, there's a long queue of other suppliers behind them. Prices might go up slightly, but that's about all. Certainly America will not be brought to her knees by this method.

The United States would not at its current state, risk war with a nation backed by a nuclear power (China) that is allied to another nuclear power (NOrth Korea).

China's only option for war with the USA is nuclear, and while the Chinese/NK nuclear force could do significant damage to the US (mostly on the west coast), the USA could utterly obliterate China and NK in a few minutes. This is not something that the Chinese leadership will be keen upon - I hurt you, you kill me is not a good trade unless you have a death wish.

Furthermore, a large portion of the Chinese economy depends upon American business. If America withdraws this, China can look forward to a recession. America uses China as a cheap labour source, but as with the oil, if China cuts America off there are plenty more queueing up - India, Mexico et al.

I hesitate to say Osama as it has still not been proven that he did it

Not even after he appeared on Al-Jazeera and said "I did it"?

[Thomas Burke]

Withdrawing supply of oil (ever read Dune?) is an easy way to do so. More would be needed however.

This is very naive. Firstly, China is an economic pygmy and simply can't afford to buy all the oil the Arabs want to sell. If they want to cut off the Americans and sell to China, the Sheikhs had better be prepared to take a significant pay cut - and they are too materialistic and selfish to do that.

Secondly, there is oil in Alaska, Texas, the North Sea and plenty in Russia. If the Arabs stop selling oil to the Americans, there's a long queue of other suppliers behind them. Prices might go up slightly, but that's about all. Certainly America will not be brought to her knees by this method.

The United States would not at its current state, risk war with a nation backed by a nuclear power (China) that is allied to another nuclear power (NOrth Korea).

China's only option for war with the USA is nuclear, and while the Chinese/NK nuclear force could do significant damage to the US (mostly on the west coast), the USA could utterly obliterate China and NK in a few minutes. This is not something that the Chinese leadership will be keen upon - I hurt you, you kill me is not a good trade unless you have a death wish.

Furthermore, a large portion of the Chinese economy depends upon American business. If America withdraws this, China can look forward to a recession. America uses China as a cheap labour source, but as with the oil, if China cuts America off there are plenty more queueing up - India, Mexico et al.

I hesitate to say Osama as it has still not been proven that he did it

Not even after he appeared on Al-Jazeera and said "I did it"?

Naive? I didn't say yet . I said eventually. Believe me, the United States is very dependent on oil from the Middle East which is why it is so heavily invested in the region. Within the next 50 years should the Arabs withdraw and China take the gulp then the US would not be able to resist the movement. Besides, Russia is kind of at only-semi friendly relations with the United States at the moment and is almost at a position like China's (though better considering they are now an ally of the United States).

Again, later the United States would not risk such a conflict and I still believe they wouldn't. United States is reluctant for itself to go to war with North Korea for the same reason and their nuclear program is prettttty small compared to the US's or China's. In other words, the United States would rather have China go to war with its allies than risk a small nuclear picnic with North Korea.

[KrustyKidd]

So Tom, in this scenario either the rest of the planet is going to double their consumption of oil or OPEC is going to "hunker down" for a sort of strike for ten years or more? Where are all these millions of cars going to come from in the eastern hemisphere to use this oil? Are they going to pay in rice or yen? If yen what are the Saudis and all going to buy? Handmade carpets or cast iron computors? If just simply going on a "Hate the Great Satan" strike how are they going to feed their people or is the hate Israel thing going to keep them going through that one too?

[Debo]

Once matters reach this point, it no longer matters who was right and who was wrong; slights, insult and injustices of the past no longer have relevance. Theories about 'root causes' become a diversion for air-heads while those of us who have a grasp of reality defend our loved ones and our way of life.

Those ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. The war on terror is not winnable. You could wipe out millions of "terrorists" but, like Hydra, more would spring up with more motivation to deal death to your innocents. The path you choose, while cloacked in noble ideas of self-defense, will only ensure the death of more innocents.

If someone hits you what do you do?

nothing? okay, now they just did it again. What do you do? nothing again? okay but after ten or twelve times I am sure you will have a repose. And right repose or wrong repose you will strike back with vigor equal to or greater than thier's.

What would you have the US do?Why can our country have at least the same standards?

[daniel]

I would hope that we elect governments to behave like diplomatic world leaders working towards the benefit of all instead of governments to behave like street vigilantes.

[Whistler]

Those ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. The war on terror is not winnable. You could wipe out millions of "terrorists" but, like Hydra, more would spring up with more motivation to deal death to your innocents. The path you choose, while cloacked in noble ideas of self-defense, will only ensure the death of more innocents.

Which chapter of history are you referring to? Botany?

If the war on terrorism is not winnable the alternative is not acceptable. Those Countries and people that feel the war on terrorism is below them, please step aside and keep quite for they will reap the benefits without absorbing the sacrifices. Terrorists have a friend in the media that are poisoning our resolve.

[righturnonred]

I think that the motives of terrorists, while cloaked in the name of Islamic fundamentalism, are actually poltical. The upper echelons of the terrorist infrastructure uses warped interpretations of wahabism and other radical forms of Islam to brainwash socially repressed, hate filled young men into commiting violent acts in the name of Allah. It is truly cowardly. The animals are a disease and they must be exterminated, even if it must be a perpetual effort.