American Patriotism

[Hugo]

Riff,

so considering the US helped corrupt governments to kills perhaps 100,000 people, they owe the world alot i would suspect, at least in terms of the human suffering they caused and benefited from.

I can remember explaining this to you time and time again, and you insist on pretending that you can't or won't understand, and quite frankly I don't feel like explaining it again. Go read my previous posts for your answer.

Oh, by the by, do you know Japan has never publicly apologised or paid compensation for its massacres in China? Some reliable sources cite perhaps 13 million Chinese dead - 130 times your 100,000. Why aren't you screaming for justice in Japan? Could it be because your anti-American bigotry has actually blinded you to the rest of the world - except, of course, when you can find some evidence of American wrongdoing?

uh...does slavery or Native Americans fit in there anywhere?

Yes, I already explained how. The Americans have made apologies and attempted to repair the damage of wrongful social policies, but as I said, the Japanese don't even admit wrongdoing. Most Japanese school textbooks won't even mention Japanese atrocities and many postwar Japanese believe that Japan was attacked by America and fought a defensive war.

Why the massive double standard? There's only one explanation: you hate Americans.

Nova,

You, my dear ignorant Brit friend, need to read American history.

Ah, the arrogance of youth. You're going to have to wait awhile to understand the irony in that, but for the meantime, I have a book recommendation: "A New Age Now Begins", by Page Smith. It's almost 2000 pages, so it'll probably take you a while, but it's pretty comprehensive and when you finish you'll have some idea of what you are talking about.

The beginning of the industrial boom in North America was chiefly through protestants in the Northern colonies and the legendary work ethics of the Puritans and the Quakers, and the great prosperity of such Northern colonies as Penn's Colony (Pennsylvania). The South had no such work ethic, and chiefly lived off slave labour. Because of their dependence upon slavery, and the ready availability of cheap land, unlike the North, there was no incentive to become more efficient and to develop industry. Quite simply, all their needs could be met through agriculture, and all economic expansion made simply by moving further inland along the great rivers. Their economy was much less efficient, and unlike the Northern protestants their "captains of industry" concerned themselves mostly with social life and partying rather than profits. This great imbalance led to the increasing Southern fear of marginalisation by the North, which caused the Civil War and at the same time decided its outcome even as it began.

If you want to know more, I invite you to read the book I recommended.

Apparently many people throughout the latter half of the 20th century thought so. I'm simply quoting them. (including many leaders of the UK)

Give us the tools and we will finish the job.

-- Winston Churchill

Does that mean "we have the tools" or "we need the tools" to you?

Britain could have won a prolonged war if Europe wasn't calling.

Europe wasn't calling. Dear me! French involvement was irrelevant. Britain could not have held the entire continent of North America with supply lines stretching over an ocean and a continent against a hostile populace and a wily native resistance. The cost of holding the colony of America would have far outweighed the benefits of holding it anyway.

They produced the agricultural material for the North to jumpstart its industrial might.

Most of the Southern agricultural product was exported. That's why the Northern naval blockade was so effective at damaging the Southern economy during the Civil War.

Btw, before you start on religion and Islam bashing, how did Christanity produce HITLER?

It didn't. Book recommendation #2: Mein Kampf, by Adolf Hitler.

Without the slaves, the US would have taken 50-90 years longer to get to the stage it is at.

Why? Justify that with economic figures, please. Or at least provide a source. If it's your communist nutjob teacher I'm going to laugh at you.

[Ronda]

Nova,

You're absolutely the most arrogant person I've ever come across. Bravo, my 17 year old brainiac.

Anyway, why exactly does it shock and horrify you so much that America "cares more" when America is attacked than when attacks and wars in other countries happen? Why does that floor you so much?

If you were to get robbed and called 911, would you expect the operator to tell you how easy you had it and ask you why on earth you weren't out there worrying about other people who were being raped and killed this very second? Would you then expect them to tell you it was your own fault since you didn't have a decent security system in the first place? Or maybe that you should be ashamed anyway, for having such a nice house and that maybe if you shared more of your stuff with others, they wouldn't rob you... Do you see where I'm going with this?

Of COURSE they consider it more of a problem when a terrorist organisation hijacks a couple planes and kills 3000 civilians on US soil than when warlords and tinpot dictators war and mismanage resources in third world countries. It doesn't make them callous, arrogant or at-fault - it makes the US government more concerned with the US than with Libya or Rwanda! What is so difficult to understand?

I presume you would've found it appropriate if, two years ago today, GWB got on TV and told the American public that it was really the fault of America that 9-11 happened and that we needn't make too big a fuss since there were people dying all over the world. If he'd gone on to explain how America is a rich country and if all those greedy American b@stards could just give all their

money to taxes, the government could redistribute the wealth (somehow) and we could all live in peace, happiness and harmony. Kinda like a Beatles song. Wouldn't that have been swell?

I'm tempted to go back into the reasons why the US has acted the way it has in different situations in the past but I don't have the patience. Please see other threads. Suffice to say that the US wasn't sitting there thinking "Hmm... whom shall we rape and pillage today? How can we possibly murder more people for our own gain? I'm so bored, can we please go install a bloodthirsty dictator and sit back for the fireworks!?" Please give it a rest.

So, we're supporting freedom by creating thousands of new terrorists. We're supporting freedom by destabilizing regions across the world? We're supporting freedom by allowing extremists access to a unstable country? We're supporting freedom by giving everyone the cold shoulder? We're supporting freedom by going down the path to oblivion? That doesn't sound like any sort of freedom America believed before.

I don't even know what you're talking about. I didn't realise there was a clear path to oblivion and I surely didn't know the US was purposefully striding down it. "Destabalizing regions across the world"?? Was Iraq stable before? Do you consider Saddam Hussein a stabalising force? I'm sorry, Nova, you'll need to enlighten me a little more, I'm not as educated and worldly as you are. I must be ignorant... after all, I grew up in a border town, American stupidity is bound to rub off.

Apparently many people throughout the latter half of the 20th century thought so. I'm simply quoting them.

So what? Apparently Winston Churchill didn't, and good thing. Oh well, he was just a warmongering cowboy anyway... not like that peace-loving Chamberlain.

Slaves. Yes, the US had slaves. As did, and DO other countries. This bothered a portion of the US population enough that there was a war framed around the issue. A very bloody one. Slavery was abolished. Yet, the way you tell it, Americans did and do LOVE slavery. Interesting.

And, BTW, giving your opinion and having a discussion is one thing but coming onto a forum yapping about how no one else has ever studied history and how brilliant you are and listing the credentials of your supposed learning institution has quite the opposite of your intended effect.

[Nuclear]

If I'm correct, the US didn't really become very industrialized until AFTER Slavery. That was also a century ago. We've come quite a ways sense then and it can all be contributed to hard working Americans. Black, White, Native-Americans, and every other nationality that makes up this great country.

As for the help of the French in the Revolutionary War. It was nice of them to help us, but the French then were under a different governement....King Louis was in power then. That'd be like always hating Iraq for what Saddam did or always hating America for what Clinton did. The French then had a revolution which we initially supported(they helped us, we were about to return the favor) until I believe it was Thomas Jefferson went over to France as the Secretary of State to see nothing but a head rolling party.

Then, over 100,000 Americans died in WW1 helping the French.

Then in total over 400,000 Americans died in WW2 helping the French.(That number is both theatres but it was, after all, one war that needed to be won on all fronts)

Ya know Vietnam? Yeah...we went there to help fight the VC cause the French failed.

I'm not going anti-France here. I'm just trying to express that our debt is paid. I'm STILL waiting for Japan and Germany to pay the rest of the world back for their little temper tantrums last century.

HUGO: Your great uncle and grandfather sound like great men patriots. You don't have to be an American to be patriotic of your country or patriotic for freedom.

No offense, Nova, but you're 17. Everything you know is based on one of four things:

1)What your parents told you.

2)What your teachers tell you.

3)What your textbooks tell you.

4)What the media tells you.

No offense to any of those sources, but none of them are necessarily 100% correct. When I was little my father told me if I ate chicken wings I'd be able to fly. My teachers told me in school guns were evil.(We can debate that in another room if you'd like) I read a textbook for school that has misquoted famous sayings such as what Neil Armstrong said when he landed on the moon. The Media puts out storys how the directors want them to be seen.

As you soon step into the real world, you'll be able to use those original sources as a refference to what you encounter there and then(hopefully) be able to make well informed opinions and decisions.

Don't ignore all the people in these forums as wackos just because their views differ. Don't mindlessly listen to ANYONE. Listen to everyone and everything.

The best example I can think of of a patriot is what one of my grandfathers, along with about another million American young men went through in the Summer of 1945.

He had just been through Leyte and Luzon and the Phillipines were clear of Japanese soldiers. Now plans for the Invasion of Japan (X-Day) were being drafted. My grandfather served in the 33rd Infantry Division and was going to land at Miyasaki in the first wave. They estimated in the first part of the invasion, 100,000-150,000 Americans would be killed.

He spent that summer being 20 years old preparing to go to face his death. He knew he wouldn't be coming home. Yet he still prepared. A coward would have turned away and quit. Taken a court-martial. Given themself a self inflicted wound. He prepared and trained. Although the invasion wasn't needed, my grandfather along with several thousand more Americans were prepared to give their lives at about 18-25 years old of age. For what? For America. For the country they love. For their families. For freedom. For the right to live and go to work and not have to worry if a plane is going to crash into your office building.

Since the beginning of this country, over 2.5 MILLION Americans have died for our freedom.

Freedom was attacked and we will defend it.

Many countries also share our dream of the entire world being free one day. Canada, England, Spain, and several more have committed themselves to helping us in our common goal. Many of these countries spilled the blood of their youths together in WW1 and WW2. And now, as the triology of horror completes itself, hopefully when it's all done, there will be freedom around the world and tyranny and oppression will be no more.

So long as there is evil in the world we must fight it. It's like the fight against crime and drugs. It's a long hard battle and we must be prepared to weather it.

We will be victorious because there are men and women out there like my grandfather and like Hugo's great uncle and grandfather out there. There were heros and patriots 60 years ago when the world needed them and there are heros and patriots today. We have them all to thank.

Being a patriot doesn't mean you have to pick up a gun to and fight. It's not the only way. Love of one's country can be expressed in many ways.

[logical1]

Here I sit on September 11, 2003 after reviewing the horror that occurred 2 years ago and reading in the paper that another 15 people died in Israel the other day (not that it is anything unusual) as the result of two separate bombings which subsequently led to hundreds of people pouring out into the streets in Palestine to celebrate. Then I turn on my computer and read Nova and Sir Riff's comments and I am nauseated. I'm left saddened at hearing that Nova is only 17 and is not surviving her "education". Unfortunately, it happens to far too many young people when they are not taught sound principles or that there is any such thing. Notice the foundationless, collective mentality when she makes statements about the correctness of something based on a "poll" as if the majority of like responses mystically makes them correct. She has no regard for the knowledge or disposition of the responders. It doesn't matter, it's the magic of collectivism, right ? Notice how she has been so easily persuaded to believe that it was "slave labor" that built the most prosperous nation in history with no regard as to why slave labor did nothing of the kind in any other country in any other period in history (her kind of thinking would probably equate the pyramids in Egypt to the skyline in New York city). It doesn't matter, it's her opinion which is as valid as anyone else's, right? Notice how she views that our country has an obligation to other countries not based on their virtues but on their "needs". It doesn't matter, there are no prerequisites for helping those in need, right ?(Sir Riff thinks we owe them for assisting thugs in overthrowing what were apparently worse thugs at the time and acting, heaven forbid, in our own self interest). Notice how she apparently has no remaining sense of self worth (and doesn't believe anyone else should either) and can only grasp that we should be fearful of what retaliation might follow if we continue to oppose our enemies. This is what you get when you have liberal ivy league types teaching children that they live in a subjective world where nobody can really know anything for sure and that rights and principles are not demonstrable (because of course nothing can be, right?) and are merely things that people invent. I could go on forever but I won't. It literally makes me sick when I think about what they do to young minds (often times knowingly). By the way Nova, I'm no defender of Christianity but it wasn't Christianity that was to blame for Hitler's twisted state of mind. That was the doing of your philosophy professor's good buddies Immanuel Kant and Hegel. I'm sure he taught you lots about these two dirtbags and probably adores them guessing by the state of your unconsciousness. I have to say a couple of things about the specifics of the issues being discussed before I go. Islamic fundamentalists don't have to be mullah's and there are lots in Saudi Arabia (sorry). The reason they hate the West is the same reason you hate alot of these people here on this board. It's because reality doesn't ever seem to jive with your outlook and it's frustrating for you. Know why? Because things actually are what they are, that's why. The world really is knowable and you mistake it for arrogance when someone is sure of themselves. Americans figured out that the world really is knowable and adopted some really valuable principles and implemented them in their political and economic systems in addition to using the same logic in business and science which resulted in rapid advancement and prosperity unlike the world has ever known. Oh, I'm sorry, it was some free cotton harvesting that changed the world, right? (come on kid don't let them do that to you). What you or your polls or an ivy league professor or Allah says things are doesn't change what they actually are and when it becomes painfully obvious that you're wrong about them, it burns you up. The world is getting smaller and the evidence of the values of Western ideals over Islamic fundamentalism is so demonstrable and undeniable that Islamic fundamentalism as a way of life in the arab world is on it's way out ( The fundamentalists know this. They're crazy, they're not stupid). Instead of choosing to get with the program, they've chosen to kill people for not thinking like them. It would have worked as it always has except this time they targeted people who know better and are better. Quit being angry and wake up kid before you end up leaving a keg party or a coffee house with a bunch of twisted little ivy leaguers to set fire to some evil, uneconomical SUVs. ( Remember, jail is jail no matter what your professors tell you it is ).

You may not like what we're doing over in the middle east but consider this. Iraq had previously disclosed posession of VX and other fun stuff that they weren't supposed to have to the U.N per the U.N mandate. We didn't make that up. They disclosed it ! When we asked them to show us what they did with what they said they posessed, they wouldn't. It would be nice to find it but whether we do or not is irrelevant in the matter of whether or not is was ever there. In addition, terrorists used to move pretty freely around the globe unhindered by countries they did not threaten. Now hunting them down and handing them over has nearly become a national past time in some of those same countries. America has once again taken the point in leading the world to freedom. This was the intent and this is what has happened. We are proud of ourselves. We are sure of ourselves. And we owe noone.

[nova_satori]

Being a patriot doesn't mean you have to pick up a gun to and fight. It's not the only way. Love of one's country can be expressed in many ways.

I'll let you chew on this for now. Criticism is often the vessel for change. Criticism shows alternatives. Criticism is the vessel to purify the subject, to cleanse it of its problems. You people are taking criticism to equal terrorism.

I bet you've criticised the government at least once.

[Hugo]

Fine posts, logical1, and nuclear.

[Hugo]

I bet you've criticised the government at least once.

Yes. Timothy McVeigh also criticised the government, by that standard. Perhaps if a maniac broke into your home, killed you and your children and raped your wife, he might be just criticising the way you live your life. Maybe every liquour store robbery is a criticism of capitalism. Maybe every rape is just a misogynistic expression of frustration and criticism of feminism.

Don't be stupid.

Criticism is well and good and America encourages it. But when you resort to violence you have crossed a line, and there's an old Russian saying: "He who comes to us with a sword shall die by the sword."

[FastNed]

Nova, your snide comments are becoming very, very irritating.

Is that because they rejected your application?

You have no idea of the identity of people posting here; you lack knowledge about their education, their life experiences and you are very quick to make judgments. No one is posting their c.v., I.Q., titles, honors, net worth and so forth. Those who post here are measured by the quality and content of their posts - and I suspect none of us would wish it any other way.

[Nuclear]

Nova, to clarify for you:

Being patriotic doesn't mean having to fight. It DOES mean willing to fight for and die for the country you live in. I like my way of life. I like my friends, my family, and my countrymen ALIVE. I don't want this changed. Let any who challenge my country step forward. Since the beginning of this nation we've had those who've tried to take what we've worked hard for and we're not going to stop now.

The only thing a terrorist understands is violence.

Let me put it this way. PLEASE tell us what you think the Us should have done after 9-11 so as to prevent it from happening again.

[nova_satori]

Nuclear, if you feel that way, you should be on my side.

The current path, you feel is helping your belief, is destroying rights, creating thousands, if not millions more terrorists, upsetting millions of peoples' lives, and will ultimately create a far worse war then we are currently in.

Now, if you feel that doing this will secure your life as it is, be my guest to contiune. Just don't be upset when you are rudely awoken.

The only think American understands is shooting people that don't agree with her.

I already did. It's posted as a different thread.

FastNed, i'm only responding to the right-wing attacks on my education. Since you people obviously believe in a eye for an eye (which makes everyone blind, but let's forget that for now), it seems only fair in your logic.

Criticism is well and good and America encourages it. But when you resort to violence you have crossed a line,

Obviously you're wrong. If that was true, why do nationalistic americans attack others who don't share their views? America has resorted to violence before the terrorists did. Your point?

[Nuclear]

The only thing terrorists understand is violence. Yes it creates more of the enemy, but what are we supposed to do? Sit here and hope they don't attack again?

Action is the only way to resolve it. For the last 23 months, it's worked pretty well.

Sorry Nova, I support what America is doing to secure my rights and my freedoms. If in the process we can help a few countries in the Middle East set up a self-governing state that can exist peacefully, great. All I really care about is America and our allies. If we can help others, great, but it's not going to be a priority.

Also, for those who complain about the 87 billion dollar price tag for this war, WW2 cost about 4.3 TRILLION dollars. Sometimes you have to fight.

Never willing to fight for your beliefs and freedoms means that you can be easily conquered. Ask the French.

[SirRiff]

Never willing to fight for your beliefs and freedoms means that you can be easily conquered. Ask the French.

what was overthrowing the iranian gov in 1953? fighting for what beliefs exactly?

training and arming osama and his crew? what belief was that leaving them to rape afganistan for 20 years?

the 1973 chilean coup? what belief was overthrowing a democratically elected gov to install a military dictator who killed tens of thousands?what belief was that?

supporting both iran and iraq while they gassed and killed each other? what great belief was that?

i dont see any great beliefs the US is fighting for. they have supported many of the south american and middle eastern dictators for thier own profit while thousands where killed every year.

there is no great belief, why the hell do you think saudi arabia is such a great ally for 50 years? because you both believe in democracy?

nope, its all about cheap oil = power. thats it folks.

dont fool yourselves. just because W's speachwriters say it, doesnt make it true.

SirRiff

[nova_satori]

Also, for those who complain about the 87 billion dollar price tag for this war, WW2 cost about 4.3 TRILLION dollars. Sometimes you have to fight.

We didn't cause WWII. This, however, is much different.

Please tell me, how creating hundreds of thousands of terrorists, creating a terrorists magnet, sending the world economy down the toliet, making every ally except the UK despise us, creating the biggest bully since Rome, destroying the private rights of Americans, and otherwise making freedom a distant dream is securing the future of your way of life today.

You seem extremely hypocritical.

That's great! Support the thing that is destroying our way of life to secure our current way of life! because that makes All the sense in the world.

[Nuclear]

The events of the last 50 years regarding the middle east was mainly done by the CIA. Mostly for security reasons. If we get them to fight each other down, we won't risk them allying with the Soviet Union and becoming an enemy of ours. That was the thinking then.

When we helped Osama(spit) we were helping someone who was fighting for his freedom. He bit the hand that feeds him so now we have to put him down.

Nova,

We are not there to create terrorists, we're there to eliminate them. Granted this creates a lot of those unsympathetic to us, but if they are not with us, then they are against us.

We are not bullying. We are protecting ourselves from a world of piranhas that would love to see our success topple. They want us to live like them in clay huts and they want us to practice their religion. Ever hear the saying 'Nice guys finish last'? Well sadly it's true. The US isn't going to finish last so we're not going to allow ourselves to be pushed around. We're doing the right thing.

US defense aside, we did the Iraqis a big favor in the process. They have thousands upon thousands dead in mass graves from that fruitcake. How can you justify not doing something. Especially when we can be looking after our own interests at the same time.

We'll win this war and in the end things will be better.

I tend to fear though that the anti-American liberals will kill us from the inside before any army could ever destroy this great country. Heck, the UN will probably give orders to our troops one day and other nations will have a say in our affairs. The world is going to fall apart....

It's sad. I hope it's after my lifetime.

[nova_satori]

We'll win this war and in the end things will be better.

You cannot win a war aganist a concept.

When we helped Osama(spit) we were helping someone who was fighting for his freedom. He bit the hand that feeds him so now we have to put him down.

Not exactly. If the US pulled out of Saudia Arabia after desert shield, probably none of this would be happening.

That would have been the easiest, cheapest, most efficent way to stop this war. However, that is never the path the US takes.

we did the Iraqis a big favor in the process. They have thousands upon thousands dead in mass graves from that fruitcake. How can you justify not doing something. Especially when we can be looking after our own interests at the same time.

If we really wanted to help people, we would have freed Iran. They live under far worse rulers. However, they have less oil. *shame on the US*

We are not bullying

Coalition of the bribed, and extorted?

Nova,

We are not there to create terrorists, we're there to eliminate them.

However, we are creating more then we are removing. Kill one, three appear. you WILL LOSE.

We're doing the right thing.

What are you talking about? Since when did US interest and right thing ever meet?

[SirRiff]

When we helped Osama(spit) we were helping someone who was fighting for his freedom. He bit the hand that feeds him so now we have to put him down.

they were never fighting for freedom, they were fighting to be the next oppressors, since everyone knew they were extreme from the start.

by that logic ever two bit rebel group that wants to rule a country is worthy of aid. they arent

SirRiff

[Black Dog]

When we helped Osama(spit) we were helping someone who was fighting for his freedom. He bit the hand that feeds him so now we have to put him down.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has been a guiding principal of U.S. foreign policy for decades. Osama is a prime example, Saddam Hussein another. It's a policy which continues today, which means the U.S. will be in the business of bumping off former clients for decades to come.

We are not there to create terrorists, we're there to eliminate them. Granted this creates a lot of those unsympathetic to us, but if they are not with us, then they are against us.

Obviously, you don't see the inconsistancy between those statements. Terrorists come from the ranks of those you write off as "being unsympathetic to you". Thus, the war on terror will create more terrorists, which means your war will last forever. Is that what you want?

We are not bullying. We are protecting ourselves from a world of piranhas that would love to see our success topple. They want us to live like them in clay huts and they want us to practice their religion. Ever hear the saying 'Nice guys finish last'? Well sadly it's true. The US isn't going to finish last so we're not going to allow ourselves to be pushed around. We're doing the right thing.

Ah yes, they're just jealous. After all, why consider complexities such as foreign control over domestic resources, creeping cultural and religious imperialsim and so forth when you can just chalk it up to geo-political penis envy. The right's tendancy to consider simplistic solutions to complex problems never ceases to amuse.

US defense aside, we did the Iraqis a big favor in the process. They have thousands upon thousands dead in mass graves from that fruitcake. How can you justify not doing something. Especially when we can be looking after our own interests at the same time.

Sorry, but considering how many were killed by Saddam during his tenure as the U.S.'s errand boy and how many more died when George I bailed on the Iraqi uprising in '91, your statement rings a little less than sincere. Plus, I'm sure the Iraqis America has killed in this conflict are thankful they died at the hands of Americans instead of Saddam...

We'll win this war and in the end things will be better.

You just don't get it: this war will never end.

[SirRiff]

You just don't get it: this war will never end.

one astonishing thing about current american view is that they largely believe they can maintain thier lifestyle and fight the most desperate violent people on earth at teh same time. it just cant happen that way.

to win the war on terror the US will need to become a police state which spends most of its time in fear and loathing, which is exactly what the terrorists want, becauase that is what they themselves have become.

as i said before, no matter how nice your house is, you are only as safe as your worst off neighbor.

SirRiff

[Nuclear]

If only we had the ability to see the what ifs.....what if we hadn't gone into Iraq...what if WMD were sold to terrorists.....what if DC, NYC, LA, or London were under a mushroom cloud.....

And you think the stock markets hurt on 9-12? Imagine if Wall Street was a pile of ash....

Then again, nothing might have happened.

But we'll never know. To be honest, I'm willing to take the risk of eliminating a potential threat before millions upon millions are dying here. We have the technology to defend ourselves, they don't. Not my problem. We did the best we could to prevent civillian casualties and many Americans were killed and injured because of it, so don't complain to me or my country.

I'm a patriot and a nationalist. Anyone who challenges my country deserves death.

[FastNed]

Nova, SirRiff -you two keep projecting your 'angst' over events which occured prior to your birth as motivation for these terrorist attacks. And time and time again, statements from the terrorists and those associated with them have made it plain that religion (and only religion) is the basis for their actions.

[nova_satori]

Nova, SirRiff -you two keep projecting your 'angst' over events which occured prior to your birth as motivation for these terrorist attacks. And time and time again, statements from the terrorists and those associated with them have made it plain that religion (and only religion) is the basis for their actions.

So only things in my lifetime have any relevance to anything? So does that apply to 80 year olds in the Middle east that hate the US? Because 63 years of their lives have nothing to do with what they feel?

Religion is simply the method they use to attack. it does not mean it is the sole basis. You people seem to think that America is entirely blamess and is a noble and ethical country. Now I know why pro-education activiests are pushing for required US history. It's obvious you didn't get it.

If only we had the ability to see the what ifs.....what if we hadn't gone into Iraq...what if WMD were sold to terrorists.....what if DC, NYC, LA, or London were under a mushroom cloud.....

Well, the odds of it happening after we attack are much higher. We've opened a country up to thousands of extremists, destroyed a force guarding porous boarders, allowed for "if there WERE ANY WMD AT ALL" to easily be removed. You right wingers have caused what you wanted to stop.

I'm a patriot and a nationalist. Anyone who challenges my country deserves death.

And that is why you are the average American with poor education, a lack of US history, a lack of simple human interactions and everything else rational people have.

Actually, your statement is unamerican. The heavily right-winged Teddy Rosevelt made a comment saying it was "unamerican not to question the government."

Transalation of your comment: Anyone who disagrees with me, doesn't think that we should explore alternatives, and can think for themselves deserves death."

[Nuclear]

You know nothing of my education. The person behind this screen could be a 12 year old 6th grader or a Professor at MIT with a double doctorate so don't go accusing my education. Just like most liberals and democrats, you attack the person because you don't like their views. Nice tactics.

By eliminating the government in Iraq that supported terrorism, there is not way they can obtain WMD from Saddam or his sons(who are dead). Yeah, a few people may decide to become extremists but they too will meet their fate.

Of the various news sources out there, I found this story in a New England newspaper. Funny how others haven't posted it. I wonder why.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/Main.asp?Se...ArticleID=88954

[nova_satori]

I insult your education on US history is because no one with a decent US history background could be proud of a country that has commited more atrocities then Hilter. Since you are proud, it's obvious that your US history is severly lacking.

By eliminating the government in Iraq that supported terrorism, there is not way they can obtain WMD from Saddam or his sons(who are dead). Yeah, a few people may decide to become extremists but they too will meet their fate.

Because you can obtain weapons from someone who never had them past 1999? Yes, i'd like to us my nuke that i don't have.

A few? More like thousands upon thousands? Do you understand how much more the world hates the US after the Iraqi invasion?

The Bush administration has evidence of some prewar Iraqi contacts and training with al-Qaida, based on prisoner interrogations, defector statements and documents collected in Iraq and Afghanistan, but no proof of joint terror operations, according to U.S. officials.

Here's the FIRST problem that automatically disqualifies this as proof. BUSH ADMIN. That obviously can;t be correct. Prisoner intergations? (forced eh?) Defector statements taht Saddam led them to believe. Documents that are 10 years old? LOL.

NO PROOF OF JOINT TERROR OPERATIONS. NEED I GO ON?

[Bushmustgo]

Patriotism is great but, learn from the Germans under Nazi control who took a low time and in the name of patriotism, turned against those "supposedly" causing them from excelling. People followed under the blanket of patriotism and millions died because of it.

I was called unpatriotic for not supporting the war and had people telling me that I should move to Iraq because I was voicing my opinion against it, which by the way, is patriotism in a smarter way and uses my constitutional right through the 1st Amendment, "Freedom of Speech."

[Nuclear]

I insult your education on US history is because no one with a decent US history background could be proud of a country that has commited more atrocities then Hilter. Since you are proud, it's obvious that your US history is severly lacking.

Ok, Professor. Educate me. When did we try to conquer the entire continent we live on? Now remember, Germany was united in their domination of Europe. We were not involved in the Mexican War a day before people we attacking the President(whose career in politics came to a close). No one in America agreed with it so they are a tad different.

I also missed the part where America exterminates 6 million people based on religion.

America did nothing in comparison to what Hitler did. You are crazy to think otherwise.