It’s Official: US Abandoning Ukraine | Scheerpost

[Scott75]

On 1/29/2025 at 9:22 AM, Barquentine said:

So if Russia gets a big chunk (or all) of Ukraine they will not only have one of the largest reserve of oil in the world but also control of one of the largest food exporters in the world. I don't think the West wants that.

If by the West, you mean the western elites, I'd agree. The issue you might want to ask yourself is, does this current war benefit your average western citizen? I'd say that the answer there is a resounding no. It sucks money out of things that they actually need, such as infrastructure and a good education.

On 1/29/2025 at 9:22 AM, Barquentine said:

And Europe wants that buffer zone.

Most -NATO- members of Europe may want that buffer zone. It doesn't even apply to all NATO members. An article on this:

https://www.thetimes.com/world/russia-ukraine-war/article/russia-gas-pipeline-hungary-slovakia-czech-republic-t6nnxtfrz

On 1/29/2025 at 9:22 AM, Barquentine said:

The U.S. won the Cold War by outspending the USSR.

I strongly disagree. I believe they won the Cold War because the Soviet system wasn't as good as the American one. I believe that once the USSR dissolved, resulting in several states and Russia, Russia's system became better in many ways. I think their best improvement is their wish for a truly multi polar world, one not dominated by a single country. The U.S., unfortunately, still pines for full-spectrum dominance. The world is begin to strongly allign with the multi polar model. Hopefully the U.S. will allign itself with this new reality.

On 1/29/2025 at 9:22 AM, Barquentine said:

At the same time, everywhere the U.S. retreats from, whether its military aid, humanitarian aid, trade deals,... China will step in to fill the void.

Let's not leave Russia out of things. And yes, you're right. A lot of the world is tired of the United States' "full-spectrum dominance" arrogance and is in favour of a more multi polar world, as exemplified by the growing support of BRICS. The way I see it, the U.S. really only has 2 choices- it can accept this new reality and join this new system or it can go kicking and screaming as its full spectrum dominance fantasy diminishes. The only real danger is that as it has its tantrums that it takes a good chunk of humanity with it, vis a vis nuclear weapons. Guess we'll see what happens.

Edited February 4 by Scott75

[ironstone]

On 1/27/2025 at 8:10 AM, Hodad said:

They are abandoned already. When a people elect a man without principles--and everyone knows it--we can see that the people have no principles.

Afghanistan?

[Barquentine]

3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

I believe they won the Cold War because the Soviet system wasn't as good as the American one.

Hence the ability to bankrupt them by outspending.

 

3 hours ago, Scott75 said:

The way I see it, the U.S. really only has 2 choices- it can accept this new reality and join this new system or it can go kicking and screaming as its full spectrum dominance fantasy diminishes.

By almost every metric the US and its allies are so far beyond Russia and China, it will be a long time before that happens, even with Repulican isolationism.

 

Edited February 4 by Barquentine

[Hodad]

1 hour ago, ironstone said:

Afghanistan?

Are you asking if-- or proposing that-- the Afghanistan withdrawal was a similar abandonment? 

Different scenarios in many ways (internal vs external, length of engagement, geopolitical stakes, etc). But there are some similarities. Particularly the way that Trump excluded the Afghan government from the withdrawal deal, essentially just giving the country back to the Taliban. That could have been managed better. He did the same thing with the Kurds in Syria, who had already paid a high price for taking our side.

Frankly, that's just Trump's nature. As soon as it benefits him to turn on an ally, he will. His loyalty is a one-way street. 

[godzilla]

4 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Let's not leave Russia out of things. And yes, you're right. A lot of the world is tired of the United States' "full-spectrum dominance" arrogance and is in favour of a more multi polar world, as exemplified by the growing support of BRICS. The way I see it, the U.S. really only has 2 choices- it can accept this new reality and join this new system or it can go kicking and screaming as its full spectrum dominance fantasy diminishes.

i'm sorry... what fabricated political ideological belief system are you coming from? it doesn't matter...

you're pushing for Make America Poor Again? is that it?

[ironstone]

1 hour ago, Hodad said:

Are you asking if-- or proposing that-- the Afghanistan withdrawal was a similar abandonment? 

Different scenarios in many ways (internal vs external, length of engagement, geopolitical stakes, etc). But there are some similarities. Particularly the way that Trump excluded the Afghan government from the withdrawal deal, essentially just giving the country back to the Taliban. That could have been managed better. He did the same thing with the Kurds in Syria, who had already paid a high price for taking our side.

Frankly, that's just Trump's nature. As soon as it benefits him to turn on an ally, he will. His loyalty is a one-way street. 

Now just who was in charge when the US withdrew from Afghanistan?

[ironstone]

Back to Ukraine. The Biden/Harris administration did send an enormous amount of aid to Ukraine, but as it turns out, a lot of it cannot be accounted for. Who is saying that? Volodymyr Zelensky.

It seems that certain people may have become fabulously wealthy from all this aid that may not have had enough strings attached.

Edited February 4 by ironstone

[Hodad]

28 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Now just who was in charge when the US withdrew from Afghanistan?

I think we've covered this plenty. The Trump administration signed the papers functionally giving Afghanistan back to the Taliban. Trump tried to withdraw 100% of the troops before leaving office, but only made it to 90%. Much like the economy, he left Biden a complete mess, a resurgent Taliban, and only a token force left in country.

What you're trying to do is really pretty absurd. It's like if the Biden passed a $100 billion in spending but only disbursed $90 billion by Jan 6, and the final $10 billion went out after Trump took office. Who spent $100 billion? Was it Trump, since he was there for the final 10%? 

Trump withdrew the US from Afghanistan. Biden just brought the last few troops home. 

[ironstone]

2 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Biden just brought the last few troops home. 

And we all know how that went don't we?

No comment on all that missing aid money designated for Ukraine? Are you not interested in that?

[Hodad]

8 minutes ago, ironstone said:

And we all know how that went don't we?

 

We sure do. That resurgent Taliban that Trump empowered facilitated a terrorist attack on our troops. Who could have predicted?

 

Quote

No comment on all that missing aid money designated for Ukraine? Are you not interested in that?

If you want to raise a new topic, go for it, but you'll have to be more specific. 

[ironstone]

8 minutes ago, Hodad said:

If you want to raise a new topic, go for it, but you'll have to be more specific. 

This topic is about abandoning Ukraine so I think this is an appropriate place to discuss tens of billions in missing aid money that supposedly went to that country. 

Once again, specifically...billions in Ukraine aid money....unaccounted for.  

You're not even curious in the slightest about this?

[Scott75]

On 1/29/2025 at 11:20 AM, User said:

On 1/29/2025 at 8:56 AM, Scott75 said:

I made a thread specifically to address any concerns you or others may have about Mr. Ritter.

Yeah, and we soundly rejected your absurd arguments trying to defend this guy. 

No, you debated some points for a bit and then you abandoned the thread back in November. I see you're giving it a go once more. For the audience, this is the thread in question:

 

Edited February 4 by Scott75
Added information

[Black Dog]

2 minutes ago, ironstone said:

This topic is about abandoning Ukraine so I think this is an appropriate place to discuss tens of billions in missing aid money that supposedly went to that country. 

Once again, specifically...billions in Ukraine aid money....unaccounted for.  

You're not even curious in the slightest about this?

How do you know it went anywhere? 

If I owe someone 20 bucks and pay them 10, that other 10 isn't "missing."

[Hodad]

4 minutes ago, ironstone said:

This topic is about abandoning Ukraine so I think this is an appropriate place to discuss tens of billions in missing aid money that supposedly went to that country. 

Once again, specifically...billions in Ukraine aid money....unaccounted for.  

You're not even curious in the slightest about this?

Missing according to whom? Unaccounted for according to whom? Is this just some shit you read on new-Twitter? Do you have facts to contribute, or are we going to debate a rumor? What do you even want to talk about?

[ironstone]

Just now, Black Dog said:

How do you know it went anywhere? 

If I owe someone 20 bucks and pay them 10, that other 10 isn't "missing."

I'm just listening to what the source (president Zelensky....of Ukraine!) is saying. One would think that the man that has gone cap in hand to many nations begging for aid should be keeping a close eye on where this money is going. 

But he publicly states he has no idea.

'How do you know it went anywhere?'  Well it must have gone somewhere. And Zelensky is unable to account for more than half the aid, 58% to be more precise.

2 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Missing according to whom? Unaccounted for according to whom? Is this just some shit you read on new-Twitter? Do you have facts to contribute, or are we going to debate a rumor? What do you even want to talk about?

It's Zelensky who is saying this!

President of Ukraine. Surely you have heard of him?

[Hodad]

7 minutes ago, ironstone said:

I'm just listening to what the source (president Zelensky....of Ukraine!) is saying. One would think that the man that has gone cap in hand to many nations begging for aid should be keeping a close eye on where this money is going. 

But he publicly states he has no idea.

'How do you know it went anywhere?'  Well it must have gone somewhere. And Zelensky is unable to account for more than half the aid, 58% to be more precise.

It's Zelensky who is saying this!

President of Ukraine. Surely you have heard of him?

Okay, so maybe when you actually have something to share you can come back to the group...

[Black Dog]

12 minutes ago, ironstone said:

But he publicly states he has no idea.

'How do you know it went anywhere?'  Well it must have gone somewhere. And Zelensky is unable to account for more than half the aid, 58% to be more precise.

Not necessarily. It seems likely it was not disbursed at all, which means it's still in U.S. coffers (well, it's probably in Elon musk's pocket by now, but you get the idea).

Edited February 4 by Black Dog

[ironstone]

2 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Okay, so maybe when you actually have something to share you can come back to the group...

Ok, so you clearly didn't watch the link I posted above. I get it. Tens of billions sent to Ukraine unaccounted for might not reflect well on the Democrats that sent all that money there. Better to not ask questions.

🤫

[Hodad]

3 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Ok, so you clearly didn't watch the link I posted above. I get it. Tens of billions sent to Ukraine unaccounted for might not reflect well on the Democrats that sent all that money there. Better to not ask questions.

🤫

I wasn't involved in that conversation at all. And no, what kind of functional adult is going to watch some click-baity bullshit from Youtube? Do you not have a job or other responsibilities that that's how you spend your time? Jeebus.

I am actively opposed to helping asshats monetize misinformation on social media. 

Find real news and read that instead. ACTUAL journalists will do the work to tease out the details of the story: what we've committed, what's been disbursed, the form of aid, etc.

[godzilla]

14 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Ok, so you clearly didn't watch the link I posted above. I get it. Tens of billions sent to Ukraine unaccounted for might not reflect well on the Democrats that sent all that money there. Better to not ask questions.

🤫

well no worries! Trump is going to find out... right? we should be hearing any day now...

but don't hold your breadth.

as an aside, i remember these stories during the Iraq war:

Iraq was awash in cash. We played football with bricks of $100 bills

back to the OP. Trump seems to be on a huge power trip at the moment. i think he's going to back Ukraine all the way. he does know weakness when it hits him in the face. its making Russia nervous.

Russia to Trump: Back off Ukraine’s rare earths

Good for Trump!

Edited February 4 by godzilla

[Black Dog]

10 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Ok, so you clearly didn't watch the link I posted above. I get it. Tens of billions sent to Ukraine unaccounted for might not reflect well on the Democrats that sent all that money there. Better to not ask questions.

🤫

Again: there's nothing here to suggest that money was sent anywhere. Zelensky doesn't say anything of the sort, only that they haven't received what they were promised.

[ironstone]

2 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Again: there's nothing here to suggest that money was sent anywhere. Zelensky doesn't say anything of the sort, only that they haven't received what they were promised.

If they(Biden/Harris) didn't give Ukraine everything they promised, is that not also kind of leaving Ukraine hanging? Just as you guys are accusing Trump of doing?

I'm of the opinion that the best option is to end this war asap and neither Russia or Ukraine will end up getting what they want, but the slaughter should end.

[WestCanMan]

On 1/27/2025 at 5:10 AM, Hodad said:

They are abandoned already. When a people elect a man without principles--and everyone knows it--we can see that the people have no principles.

Says a guy who wanted to elect Kamala "I sucked my way to the top" Harris. 

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, Hodad said:

I think we've covered this plenty. The Trump administration signed the papers functionally giving Afghanistan back to the Taliban. Trump tried to withdraw 100% of the troops before leaving office, but only made it to 90%. Much like the economy, he left Biden a complete mess, a resurgent Taliban, and only a token force left in country.

What you're trying to do is really pretty absurd. It's like if the Biden passed a $100 billion in spending but only disbursed $90 billion by Jan 6, and the final $10 billion went out after Trump took office. Who spent $100 billion? Was it Trump, since he was there for the final 10%? 

Trump withdrew the US from Afghanistan. Biden just brought the last few troops home. 

What a shameless, lying piece of sh1t you are. 

That post is 100% revisionist history BS, to the point where no part of it is even worth addressing specifically. 

[WestCanMan]

5 hours ago, ironstone said:

Back to Ukraine. The Biden/Harris administration did send an enormous amount of aid to Ukraine, but as it turns out, a lot of it cannot be accounted for. Who is saying that? Volodymyr Zelensky.

It seems that certain people may have become fabulously wealthy from all this aid that may not have had enough strings attached.

I don't think that the differing valuations mean that "$100B is missing". 

I can only assume that when the US says that they're giving Ukraine $177B in aid, it means that they're spending $177B on new military equipment for themselves, and at the same time giving Ukraine approximately that much military hardware/supplies that are a generation or two old.

I don't think it means that they gave Ukraine cash or gold to buy weapons with, but if they did they're incredibly stupid.

So how much is a Javelin missile worth? 

There's a cost to buy it, say $50k for the sake of argument, but it's not worth one dollar if it doesn't work. You'd get some poor slob to hump it out into a field, pop his head up to fire it, and give away his position when the rocket that he fires achieves nothing. On the other hand, if it takes out a $2M tank, it's worth more than $50k. 

I'd say that whatever amount of aid the US gave Ukraine, it gave them the strength to hold their own against Russia, so it's not unreasonable to say that Ukraine got $177B worth of aid. 

I didn't watch the whole thing, but when they don't explain what they mean by "$100B missing", I lose interest really quickly.