Socialism makes people worse

[Montgomery Burns]

A great article.

Socialism teaches its citizens to expect everything, even if they contribute nothing. Socialism teaches its citizens that they have a plethora of rights and few corresponding obligations—except to be taxed.

And that is why the citizens of less socialist—and more religious—America give more charity per capita and per income than do citizens of socialist countries. That is why Americans volunteer time for the needy so much more than citizens of socialist countries do. That is why citizens of conservative states in America give more charity than citizens of liberal states do. The more Left one identifies oneself on the political spectrum, the more that person is likely to believe that the state, not fellow citizens, should take care of the poor and the needy.

Under socialism, one is not only liberated from having to take care of oneself; one is also liberated from having to take care of others. The state will take care of me and of everybody else.

The same holds true for foreign affairs. Why did the conservative government of Spain support the American war against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and send troops there, while the Spanish socialists withdrew Spanish troops as soon as they were voted into office? Because the idea of risking one’s life to bring freedom to others—or to risk one’s life for another nation for just about any reason—is alien to the socialist mindset.

Similarly, in the great litmus test of moral acuity—the Middle East—socialist countries and parties virtually all line up behind the Palestinians. They do so either out of moral confusion or out of cowardice—it takes a lot more courage to support Israel than to support the Palestinians and the whole Muslim world.

The socialist idea sounded altruistic to those who began it, and it sounds altruistic to the naive who believe in it today. In practice, however, it creates self-centered individuals and a narcissistic society. So while it may have begun as a way to help others, it has come to mean a way of evading responsibility for oneself and for others.

That is why France is so frightened of the utterly rational idea that a young person should have a two-year trial period at work before being granted a lifetime job. Such an innovation in France would mean that young people would have to work hard and earn the right to lifetime employment. But if socialism means anything, it means that one shouldn’t have to earn anything. One merely has to breathe.

Dennis Prager...telling it like it is!

It's true. Admit it.

[fryingpan]

A great article.

Socialism teaches its citizens to expect everything, even if they contribute nothing. Socialism teaches its citizens that they have a plethora of rights and few corresponding obligations—except to be taxed.

And that is why the citizens of less socialist—and more religious—America give more charity per capita and per income than do citizens of socialist countries. That is why Americans volunteer time for the needy so much more than citizens of socialist countries do. That is why citizens of conservative states in America give more charity than citizens of liberal states do. The more Left one identifies oneself on the political spectrum, the more that person is likely to believe that the state, not fellow citizens, should take care of the poor and the needy.

Under socialism, one is not only liberated from having to take care of oneself; one is also liberated from having to take care of others. The state will take care of me and of everybody else.

The same holds true for foreign affairs. Why did the conservative government of Spain support the American war against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and send troops there, while the Spanish socialists withdrew Spanish troops as soon as they were voted into office? Because the idea of risking one’s life to bring freedom to others—or to risk one’s life for another nation for just about any reason—is alien to the socialist mindset.

Similarly, in the great litmus test of moral acuity—the Middle East—socialist countries and parties virtually all line up behind the Palestinians. They do so either out of moral confusion or out of cowardice—it takes a lot more courage to support Israel than to support the Palestinians and the whole Muslim world.

The socialist idea sounded altruistic to those who began it, and it sounds altruistic to the naive who believe in it today. In practice, however, it creates self-centered individuals and a narcissistic society. So while it may have begun as a way to help others, it has come to mean a way of evading responsibility for oneself and for others.

That is why France is so frightened of the utterly rational idea that a young person should have a two-year trial period at work before being granted a lifetime job. Such an innovation in France would mean that young people would have to work hard and earn the right to lifetime employment. But if socialism means anything, it means that one shouldn’t have to earn anything. One merely has to breathe.

Dennis Prager...telling it like it is!

It's true. Admit it.

I feel sorry for those in socialist countries who don't support socialism. They are the ones who suffer the most because they realize how stupid and destructive the system is, yet they can't do much about it, because the majority of the voting population stupidly votes them back in every time.

[Michael Hardner]

There's some truth in what you say, but it's hard for someone who hasn't lived under true socialism to relate to what it really means. There are serious flaws in the American system, too.

The post-industrial world holds a lot of challenges for western nations. If these challenges aren't addressed directly, socialism could take root here again as it did in the past.

[Cameron]

People are individuals, and think like individuals. Socialism and Communism don't treat people like individuals, they treat them like numbers part of a big equation. The "American" system does have it's flaws but I think it is the best system that there is. I don't think a system should be totally capitalist but have some socialism in it.

[Michael Hardner]

People are individuals, and think like individuals. Socialism and Communism don't treat people like individuals, they treat them like numbers part of a big equation. The "American" system does have it's flaws but I think it is the best system that there is. I don't think a system should be totally capitalist but have some socialism in it.

The American system works as long as the American economy does.

[Black Dog]

The American system works as long as the American economy does.

The American system is socialist.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The American system works as long as the American economy does.

The American system is socialist.

keep dreamin

[Michael Hardner]

Do you mean National Socialist ?

I guess we're all a little guilty of adding one-liners to this thread, but your short response begs a more complete explanation.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Do you mean National Socialist ?

I guess we're all a little guilty of adding one-liners to this thread, but your short response begs a more complete explanation.

the american system incorporates some welfare state principles, but what makes america great certainly isn't it's fringe socialist elements.

[Black Dog]

the american system incorporates some welfare state principles, but what makes america great certainly isn't it's fringe socialist elements.

What "fringe welfare state" principles are we talking about? State-supplied health care and education? Taxes? Military spending?

[JerrySeinfeld]

the american system incorporates some welfare state principles, but what makes america great certainly isn't it's fringe socialist elements.

What "fringe welfare state" principles are we talking about? State-supplied health care and education? Taxes? Military spending?

huh?

[Black Dog]

the american system incorporates some welfare state principles, but what makes america great certainly isn't it's fringe socialist elements.

What "fringe welfare state" principles are we talking about? State-supplied health care and education? Taxes? Military spending?

huh?

Yeah. I thought so.

[JerrySeinfeld]

the american system incorporates some welfare state principles, but what makes america great certainly isn't it's fringe socialist elements.

What "fringe welfare state" principles are we talking about? State-supplied health care and education? Taxes? Military spending?

huh?

Yeah. I thought so.

Yes, those ones. They aren't what makes america great. It's the free markets, the entrepreneurial spirit...yes all those things. Those NON socialist things.

[Black Dog]

Yes, those ones. They aren't what makes america great. It's the free markets, the entrepreneurial spirit...yes all those things. Those NON socialist things.

Except there are no free markets in the States, or anywhere for that matter. Socialism, whether you choose to recognize it or not, is centred around a central state. So any state is, de facto, a socialist state. Even the United States.

[Riverwind]

Yes, those ones. They aren't what makes america great. It's the free markets, the entrepreneurial spirit...yes all those things. Those NON socialist things.

Things that would mean absolutely nothing if the US did not provide the social institutions that supported these enterprenuers while they persued their dreams.

Here is an interesting quote from the Economist:

Health care in America is not nearly as rooted in the private sector as people assume (one way or another, more than half the bill ends up being paid by the state). But it is the only rich country where a large chunk of health care is paid for by tax-subsidised employer-based insurance.

[Leafless]

Capitalism in the U.S. is known as a "mixed economic system".

So, in fact it is not a socialist state like BD claims.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Capitalism in the U.S. is known as a "mixed economic system".

So, in fact it is not a socialist state like BD claims.

What is this? Social Studies 30?

The USA is the greatest example of capitalism in the Western World.

[Leafless]

Jerry Seinfield

Is the U.S. 100% capitalism??

That's the inconsequential point BD was making.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Jerry Seinfield

Is the U.S. 100% capitalism??

That's the inconsequential point BD was making.

Of course not. The closest major market to 100% I can think of is Hong Kong.

Relatively, compared to the Eurosocialist states and Canada,the USA stands as the leader in Capitalism.

[Riverwind]

The USA is the greatest example of capitalism in the Western World.

The US is capitalist and socialist.

Here is a quote from wikipedia:

Likewise, market economies in the United States and other capitalist countries have integrated some aspects of socialist economic planning. Democratic countries typically place legal limits on the centralization of capital through anti-trust laws and limits on monopolies, though the extent to which these laws are actually enforced has to do with the balance of power between the actually existing or emerging monopoly firms, as well as political ties between government and some corporations (crony capitalism). Ownership of stock has become common for middle class workers, both in companies they work for and in other companies (see mutual fund). Labor market pressures (see labor economics) and regulations have encouraged profit sharing. Social welfare and unemployment insurance are mandated by law in the U.S., UK, Canada and other market economies

The if the US is the 'greatest example of capitalism in the world' then at least part of the success is a result of integrating socialist principles into the culture. You cannot separate one from the other.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The USA is the greatest example of capitalism in the Western World.

The US is capitalist and socialist.

Here is a quote from wikipedia:

Likewise, market economies in the United States and other capitalist countries have integrated some aspects of socialist economic planning. Democratic countries typically place legal limits on the centralization of capital through anti-trust laws and limits on monopolies, though the extent to which these laws are actually enforced has to do with the balance of power between the actually existing or emerging monopoly firms, as well as political ties between government and some corporations (crony capitalism). Ownership of stock has become common for middle class workers, both in companies they work for and in other companies (see mutual fund). Labor market pressures (see labor economics) and regulations have encouraged profit sharing. Social welfare and unemployment insurance are mandated by law in the U.S., UK, Canada and other market economies

The if the US is the 'greatest example of capitalism in the world' then at least part of the success is a result of integrating socialist principles into the culture. You cannot separate one from the other.

my goodness a lesson in "mixed economies" from the smarty kid on the left!

we all know the US has social programs.

it is still the greatest example of capitalism in the western world.

[lost&outofcontrol]

The USA is the greatest example of capitalism in the Western World.

The best example of capitalism would probably be the Philippines IMO, unrestrained cowboy capitalism.

Some fun facts about the US;

• 70% are living paycheck to paycheck (Source: Wall Street Journal)
  
• Average Household Debt in the US is $71,500 when the closest(UK) is $35,500!
  
• Children under the poverty level 22.4% Highest in Industrialized nations.
  
• Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births) is of 10.4 highest in Industrialized nations.
  
• Literacy rate is of 97% (68th in the world) equal with Cuba.
  
• 98 teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers when the closest(UK) is of 46.6
  
• Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people) is of 24.4 when Canada is in second with 2.6
  
• Less than 4% of Americans own their cars outright.
  
• Only 34% of Americans own their houses outright
  
• Number of politically motivated demonstrations, strikes, riots and armed attacks over 30 years: 4,258 (France has 1,566 by the way)
  
• The financial wealth of the top one percent of households now exceeds the combined wealth of the bottom 95 percent.
  

Now of course all of that is meaningless since the US is the country with the most millionaires so who cares right! I use to think the same way as many of you, socialism will take away my individual freedoms, let the invisible hand of capitalism/free markets jerk me off etc... But when you get down to it, unrestrained capitalism has ravaged all countries (other than the fully developed ones) that it has touched. Free markets funnel capital to the core instead of moving it to the periphery. Don't even get me started on the policies of the World Bank and the IMF, whomever thinks giving loans to pay the interest on previous loans is a good idea needs his head checked out. Read up on socialism, you'll soon find out that it's very different than what you've been led to believe.

Oh and when you start a thread under the title "Socialism makes people worse" expect people to react in a pretty "direct" way.

[August1991]

The USA is the greatest example of capitalism in the Western World.

The US is capitalist and socialist.

I agree with Riverwind's response, but with a caveat.

The words "socialist" and "capitalist" are so 20th century.

Tell me. Are there any socialists left in the world, outside of Internet discussion forums and university faculties? Does anyone advocate State ownership and management of the commanding heights of the economy? And what the devil is "capitalism"?

Look. The debate should not be between capitalism and socialism; it should be between markets and non-markets. We have some markets in some goods and services that work somewhat well. When markets don't work well, in theory, we rely on other methods to co-operate. For example, we have corporations, government and family.

General Motors, the US Department of Defense and Microsoft are each evidence in their own way that markets don't always work well. To use Noam Chomsky's stylistic metaphor, they are islands of top-down, command systems in an ocean of markets.

----

The American system works as long as the American economy does.

The American system is socialist.

WTF is that supposed to mean, BD?

----

[August1991]

Some fun facts about the US;

• 70% are living paycheck to paycheck (Source: Wall Street Journal)
  
• Average Household Debt in the US is $71,500 when the closest(UK) is $35,500!
  
• Children under the poverty level 22.4% Highest in Industrialized nations.
  
• Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births) is of 10.4 highest in Industrialized nations.
  
• Literacy rate is of 97% (68th in the world) equal with Cuba.
  
• 98 teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers when the closest(UK) is of 46.6
  
• Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people) is of 24.4 when Canada is in second with 2.6
  
• Less than 4% of Americans own their cars outright.
  
• Only 34% of Americans own their houses outright
  
• Number of politically motivated demonstrations, strikes, riots and armed attacks over 30 years: 4,258 (France has 1,566 by the way)
  
• The financial wealth of the top one percent of households now exceeds the combined wealth of the bottom 95 percent.
  

• 70% are living paycheck to paycheck? Strange stat - how is it calculated? - but if a family is paying into a pension, paying down a mortgage and putting a kid through school, then living paycheque to paycheque may make sense. A big chunk of their paycheque is being invested. But I won't second-guess. IME, ordinary Americans usually know a helluva lot more about things that matter to them than I do.
  
• Average Household Debt in the US is $71,500 - I suspect that debt is not net debt and excludes assets
  
• Please define "poverty level" - in Canada, it's defined as half the average income, guaranteeing that we'll always have about 25% of the population in poverty
  
• Infant Mortality Rate is high - no wonder. Elsewhere in the world, the child would never have survived to birth and life
  
• Literacy rate is of 97% equal with Cuba - I suspect some one fiddles the Cuban stats, don't you?
  
• 98 teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers when the closest(UK) is of 46.6 - for this stat, why do you compare with the UK and not Cuba
  
• Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people) is of 24.4 when Canada is in second with 2.6 - Can you provide a State-wise breakdown? Let's compare comparables.
  
• Less than 4% of Americans own their cars outright - leasing is an indication of sophisticated capital markets
  
• Only 34% of Americans own their houses outright - see above. More important, they're in the process of buying a house. I believe the US also has the lowest percentage of renters. For most people around the world, having a clear deed to a piece of land is essentially impossible. This alone is one reason that many, many people emigrate to the US.
  
• Number of politically motivated demonstrations, strikes, riots and armed attacks over 30 years: 4,258 (France has 1,566 by the way) - do you just make these statistics up?
  
• The financial wealth of the top one percent of households now exceeds the combined wealth of the bottom 95 percent - does your definition of wealth include the human capital between one's ears, and its potential to be put to good use?
  

I don't see a heck alot of people leaving the US but I see many, many, year in, year out, who want to go there. Are all those people dumb fools, conned by corporate advertising?

[geoffrey]

I'd live in the States as much as I'd live here.

It's a much better country in terms of rights. I'd like more freedom in Canada to make my own economic situation and own my own possessions (you don't own your Canadian land by the way).

They have a higher GDP per capita, so they are richer, and have higher disposible incomes than us.

They can save themselves when dying, instead of waiting in a line.

I could own guns without the government wanting to know exactly what I have where.

Anddd...they have better universities.

Lots of benifets. Mind you, there are alot of downsides to it. But before we start bashing the States left and right, we do have to admit that on the micro induvidual level, many of them live considerably better than us.