Socialism makes people worse

[Montgomery Burns]

Jerry Seinfield

Is the U.S. 100% capitalism??

That's the inconsequential point BD was making.

Inconsequential, indeed.

Just another example of BD's nuance.

[newbie]

I'd live in the States as much as I'd live here.

It's a much better country in terms of rights. I'd like more freedom in Canada to make my own economic situation and own my own possessions (you don't own your Canadian land by the way).

They have a higher GDP per capita, so they are richer, and have higher disposible incomes than us.

They can save themselves when dying, instead of waiting in a line.

I could own guns without the government wanting to know exactly what I have where.

Anddd...they have better universities.

Lots of benifets. Mind you, there are alot of downsides to it. But before we start bashing the States left and right, we do have to admit that on the micro induvidual level, many of them live considerably better than us.

I don't know. While I wouldn't walk down the street after dark in some cities in Canada, I would definitely feel less safe doing so in every city in the States. Just too much crime, too many people. And I certainly challenge your last statement. My niece almost went bankrupt with medical bills. Wouldn't happen up here.

[Montgomery Burns]

Lost&outofcontrol:

70% are living paycheck to paycheck (Source: Wall Street Journal)

The American public usually prefers to have a bird in hand than two in the bush.

Average Household Debt in the US is $71,500 when the closest(UK) is $35,500!

See above.

Children under the poverty level 22.4% Highest in Industrialized nations.

Highly misleading. I've seen the official US govt stats of what they consider "poor". Believe me, these people aren't exactly destitute. Far from it.

Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births) is of 10.4 highest in Industrialized nations.

One of the strange things about the USA.

Literacy rate is of 97% (68th in the world) equal with Cuba.

And Canada is also 97%. I believe this is more due to the immigration, legal and illegal, policies of both countries. Surely the author isn't suggesting Cuba's education system is equal to America and Canada--just because its literacy rate is the same.

98 teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers when the closest(UK) is of 46.6

A good majority of these likely came from the red states where abortion isn't popular. Not necessarily a bad thing. The age of the teen can make a big difference. My mom was 18 when she got pregnant with me (19 when she conceived) and our family did fine. Eventually worked their way up to upper-middle class. My parents worked hard. They never expected any handouts from the govt. They instilled those values in me.

Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people) is of 24.4 when Canada is in second with 2.6

Less than 4% of Americans own their cars outright.

Do you have proof of this?

Only 34% of Americans own their houses outright

How many people outright own their home? What's the author's point? US home-ownership is at a all-time high (they get to use the mortgage interest to lower their taxable income--which is a great benefit). 34% doesn't sound horrible to me.

Number of politically motivated demonstrations, strikes, riots and armed attacks over 30 years: 4,258 (France has 1,566 by the way)

France has one-fifth the population of the USA. Again, I wonder what the author's point is?

The financial wealth of the top one percent of households now exceeds the combined wealth of the bottom 95 percent.

I definitely need proof of this.

Oh and when you start a thread under the title "Socialism makes people worse" expect people to react in a pretty "direct" way.

I didn't make up the title; talk to Dennis Prager.

[Montgomery Burns]

Newbie:

I don't know. While I wouldn't walk down the street after dark in some cities in Canada, I would definitely feel less safe doing so in every city in the States.

I think you are generalizing. Most areas of Canadian and American cities are safe. Just stay out of the bad areas. I live in the city with the most robberies (per capita) in Canada and the US. When you compare Saskatoon to US cities of the same size, it gets even worse; Saskatoon's robbery rate is almost 4 times higher. I sometimes think that Canada fudges its numbers. There was recently a guy here who got stabbed 7 times, yet was only charged with assault. If stabbing someone 7 times isn't attempted murder, then I don't know what is.

My niece almost went bankrupt with medical bills. Wouldn't happen up here.

I don't know the situation of your niece but I have relatives in the USA.

Take the worst case scenario of my US relatives:

San Francisco*, in the very expensive Bay Area, in expensive California. My cousin pays $850/mth ($10,200/yr) medical insurance for 3 people; his wife, child, and himself. He says he is still far ahead of what he would have if he was back in Saskatchewan. His salary is much higher, he gets to take home a much larger portion of his paycheque, and his family doesn't have to go on a 18 mth waiting list if they are ill. I have a personal experience of a relative (through marriage) dying while on a Canadian waiting list.

* Don't laugh because conservative MB has a relative living in loony San Francisco. :angry:

[newbie]

Yeah, I know it's a generalization, but it's the perception I have. Unrealistic? Perhaps. And yeah, the waiting time in Canada is disgusting. But I see this thru the lens of someone having a disability. My overall medical costs would have been astronomical if I lived in the States. So to each his own I guess.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The best example of capitalism would probably be the Philippines IMO, unrestrained cowboy capitalism.

Lats I checked the Phillipines were not in the western world.

Some fun facts about the US;

[*]70% are living paycheck to paycheck (Source: Wall Street Journal)

[*]Average Household Debt in the US is $71,500 when the closest(UK) is $35,500!

[*]Children under the poverty level 22.4% Highest in Industrialized nations.

[*]Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births) is of 10.4 highest in Industrialized nations.

[*]Literacy rate is of 97% (68th in the world) equal with Cuba.

[*]98 teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers when the closest(UK) is of 46.6

[*]Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people) is of 24.4 when Canada is in second with 2.6

[*]Less than 4% of Americans own their cars outright.

[*]Only 34% of Americans own their houses outright

[*]Number of politically motivated demonstrations, strikes, riots and armed attacks over 30 years: 4,258 (France has 1,566 by the way)

[*]The financial wealth of the top one percent of households now exceeds the combined wealth of the bottom 95 percent.

haha. lefties are so obsessed with controlling society they don't even realize that measuring the success of a capitalist nation doesn't require the same nanny-state measures that they usually rely upon.

USA GDP per capita 2005: $43000

Canada GDP Per Capita 2005: 32000

nuff said.

[Riverwind]

haha. lefties are so obsessed with controlling society they don't even realize that measuring the success of a capitalist nation doesn't require the same nanny-state measures that they usually rely upon.

If that is your criteria then consider the list of GDP per capita for western nations:

1 Luxembourg 69,737

2 Norway 54,600

3 Switzerland 49,300

4 Ireland 45,675

5 Denmark 44,808

6 Iceland 41,804

7 United States 39,935

Guess that means the US is the 7th best capitalist country in the western world

[JerrySeinfeld]

haha. lefties are so obsessed with controlling society they don't even realize that measuring the success of a capitalist nation doesn't require the same nanny-state measures that they usually rely upon.

If that is your criteria then consider the list of GDP per capita for western nations:

1 Luxembourg 69,737

2 Norway 54,600

3 Switzerland 49,300

4 Ireland 45,675

5 Denmark 44,808

6 Iceland 41,804

7 United States 39,935

Guess that means the US is the 7th best capitalist country in the western world

If you exclude cute little countries with less than 50 Million in population the USA catapolts to #1

[geoffrey]

All of those countries made gains after more free-market policies. Especially true of Ireland, which is a massive success story of liberalisation.

Norway is super rich only because it is one of the few natural gas suppliers to the EU. It's government spending is unusally high, and the consumption aspect of GDP is relatively small. People aren't doing that well. I shouldn't say that.. people aren't doing as well as they could.

Remember, outside of Luxembourgh, Alberta is the richest region in the world. Any suprise that we are the most free-market province in Canada. Or that we've always had the lowest unemployment and the highest labour force participation? Couldn't be that economic liberalism works could it??

[JerrySeinfeld]

All of those countries made gains after more free-market policies. Especially true of Ireland, which is a massive success story of liberalisation.

Norway is super rich only because it is one of the few natural gas suppliers to the EU. It's government spending is unusally high, and the consumption aspect of GDP is relatively small. People aren't doing that well. I shouldn't say that.. people aren't doing as well as they could.

Remember, outside of Luxembourgh, Alberta is the richest region in the world. Any suprise that we are the most free-market province in Canada. Or that we've always had the lowest unemployment and the highest labour force participation? Couldn't be that economic liberalism works could it??

Not only that, but if you exclude miniscule states like ICELAND, DENMARK, LUXEMBOURG and SWITZERLAND you're left with the USA still leading the world.

[geoffrey]

Alberta would lead the world if we were independant, considerably ahead of the US. I'm starting to get sepertist feelings myself.

Apparently co-operation in Canada only goes from rich to poor. No poor people want to become rich because of this. Hence why we have only 59% participation rate in Newfoundland and 15% unemployment... yet a labour shortage in Alberta.

Either Newfies start moving here, so I'm definitely in favour of giving them the boot or leaving ourselves.

Sick of paying for those that choose to be lazy and have been led by socialism to a culture of defeat. That is what socialism breeds. Case studies like Newfoundland.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Alberta would lead the world if we were independant, considerably ahead of the US. I'm starting to get sepertist feelings myself.

Apparently co-operation in Canada only goes from rich to poor. No poor people want to become rich because of this. Hence why we have only 59% participation rate in Newfoundland and 15% unemployment... yet a labour shortage in Alberta.

Either Newfies start moving here, so I'm definitely in favour of giving them the boot or leaving ourselves.

Sick of paying for those that choose to be lazy and have been led by socialism to a culture of defeat. That is what socialism breeds. Case studies like Newfoundland.

exactly. you don't see states like Maine or New Hamshire whining to their fed gov about transfer payments and EI.

[Riverwind]

Either Newfies start moving here, so I'm definitely in favour of giving them the boot or leaving ourselves.

Newfies are all over the country - the population of Newfoundland has been decreasing for many years because of this. Furthermore, a record number of people are moving to Alberta right now and I am sure the residents of Calgary and Edmonton will be complaining about the downside to rapid growth soon enough.

What you must remember is simply not pratical for an entire population to pick up and move across the country overnight and that some people will be stuck where they are. So the question becomes an issue of what do you do with the majority of people who stick around. Just letting them starve is hardly and option. On the other hand, I don't want to defend the status quo because there are many problems with the current set of social programs. This entire issue is much more complex than you think.

[Riverwind]

exactly. you don't see states like Maine or New Hamshire whining to their fed gov about transfer payments and EI.

How would you know? Do you follow Maine politics closely?

[JerrySeinfeld]

exactly. you don't see states like Maine or New Hamshire whining to their fed gov about transfer payments and EI.

How would you know? Do you follow Maine politics closely?

I understand the basic relationship between the US federal government and the states.

It isn't a dependancy system like Canada's.

[Riverwind]

I understand the basic relationship between the US federal government and the states.

I would say that you don't understand it at all. Huge sums of money are transferred to 'have not' states via various federal programs. Military bases are often used as local 'make work' projects. In fact the American political system is notorious for doling out 'pork' to pay for local projects of dubious worth (like a 200 million bridge to no where in Alaska).

The only signficant difference between the Canadian system and the US is we have a system of income redistribution directly embedded in our constitution and many people seem to think equalization is a core Canadian value. However, at the end of the day, cash is cash and the smaller poorer states soak up enough federal cash to make the theoretical difference between the Canadian system and the US system irrelevant.

[geoffrey]

Either Newfies start moving here, so I'm definitely in favour of giving them the boot or leaving ourselves.

Newfies are all over the country - the population of Newfoundland has been decreasing for many years because of this. Furthermore, a record number of people are moving to Alberta right now and I am sure the residents of Calgary and Edmonton will be complaining about the downside to rapid growth soon enough.

What you must remember is simply not pratical for an entire population to pick up and move across the country overnight and that some people will be stuck where they are. So the question becomes an issue of what do you do with the majority of people who stick around. Just letting them starve is hardly and option. On the other hand, I don't want to defend the status quo because there are many problems with the current set of social programs. This entire issue is much more complex than you think.

Newfies with jobs can stay all they want.

Unemployment shouldn't be a choice in Canada. If a job exists, you should be working it. There are people there I talked to when I visited last year that honestly believed they are justified to hang out there. They were even complaining that they don't get enough from Canada, that they are getting the short end of the stick.

How can people live in such a depressing situation, where all dignity is lost, and not want to move to a better place where they can make an honest living for their family.

Your right, rapid growth bothers me. I hate our traffic, and all these cookie cutter houses are ugly. None the less, labour is becoming ridiculously expensive here, up over 10% last year, so we need more people before our cost of living goes up with it.

We no longer have construction workers to finish our projects, the companies are stealing each others tradesmen.

It's desperate. Yet we pay enough people to solve the problem to do aboslutely nothing but twidle their thumbs and hope the cod come back. Is there not an issue with that?

I do understand the complexities of the situation, Harper was right when he called the Maritimes a culture of defeat. That is what we have created.

[Riverwind]

Your right, rapid growth bothers me. I hate our traffic, and all these cookie cutter houses are ugly. None the less, labour is becoming ridiculously expensive here, up over 10% last year, so we need more people before our cost of living goes up with it.

Here are two scenarios to think about:

1) A worker in their 50s loses their job. They own a house in Newfoundland and live in a community where they have lots of freinds and family. Their property is worthless on the open market but since they already own it they have a home. This worker would need to retrain and then take the risk of being homeless in Alberta since they have no savings to pay for accomodation while they are looking for work. That is a huge leap to expect someone at that age to make. Most likely they will try to hang on living a modest lifestyle. Even if all social programs were cut these people would likely try to stay where they cause at least they have family.

2) If you have kids having family nearby is a godsend. I know because I live far my family and often find myself in extremely awkward situations because it is difficult to get childcare at odd times even if you can pay for it. My brother lives near my parents and has so such issues. This means it is much more difficult for a family to move away from family

What ends up happening is young single people or older men who leave their family behind are the only workers who can move. And it many cases, they do. The problem is that still leaves a lot of people in the martimes.

I do understand the complexities of the situation, Harper was right when he called the Maritimes a culture of defeat. That is what we have created.

No you don't understand anything. There are problems with programs like EI which create market distortions and disincentives. But these are small compared to the real practical issues associated with picking up and moving somewhere else.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Tell me. Are there any socialists left in the world, outside of Internet discussion forums and university faculties? Does anyone advocate State ownership and management of the commanding heights of the economy?

I guess you've never heard of Latin America. In 2004(The last available numbers I could find), 15,000 workers worked at manufacturing plants controlled by these same workers in Agentina. That number is doubling every year. Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina all have socialist goverments.

Lats I checked the Phillipines were not in the western world.

I misread your post, sorry.

..do you just make these statistics up?

Do you normally start a conversation with people by telling them they are liars? All my stats were taken from nation master, cia factbook, US census Bureau, and Huppi survey. My numbers were a comparison of industrialized nations, I trew in Cuba for some contrast.

[Montgomery Burns]

haha. lefties are so obsessed with controlling society they don't even realize that measuring the success of a capitalist nation doesn't require the same nanny-state measures that they usually rely upon.

If that is your criteria then consider the list of GDP per capita for western nations:

1 Luxembourg 69,737

2 Norway 54,600

3 Switzerland 49,300

4 Ireland 45,675

5 Denmark 44,808

6 Iceland 41,804

7 United States 39,935

Guess that means the US is the 7th best capitalist country in the western world

Your numbers are way off. Per capita GDPs from the World FactBook:

Luxembourg (a tiny mostly banking country that's population is half the size of Calgary): 62,700

Norway: 42,400

USA: 41,800

Switzerland: 35,000

Iceland: 34,600

Ireland: 34,100

Denmark: 33,500

Canada: 32,800

Even after ignoring Luxembourg, which is an abnormal representative (even Norway has 4.6 million ppl), there are still 5 European countries that have higher per capita GDPs than Canada.

[lost&outofcontrol]

GDP per capita is a terrible way to calculate the wealth of the people. If a country has 1 person making 10 billion a year and 999 people making $50 a year and another country has 1000 people making $1 000 a year, Which one is better off ? According to the GDP per capita, it would be the first but it's obvious to us that the second one is better off. Statistics can be made to prove any point. 73% of people know that .

[Montgomery Burns]

Riverwind:

1) A worker in their 50s loses their job. They own a house in Newfoundland and live in a community where they have lots of freinds and family. Their property is worthless on the open market but since they already own it they have a home. This worker would need to retrain and then take the risk of being homeless in Alberta since they have no savings to pay for accomodation while they are looking for work. That is a huge leap to expect someone at that age to make. Most likely they will try to hang on living a modest lifestyle. Even if all social programs were cut these people would likely try to stay where they cause at least they have family.

Why is their property worthless?

How many ppl in their 50s have no savings?

Whose responsibility is it if you are in your 50s and have no savings?

Is it responsible to throw up your hands and say "the hell with it"?

Don't bother retraining (if necessary), don't bother moving to a province that is starved for workers. Just sit on EI and when that runs out, go on welfare until you're 65. Now that's personal reponsibility!

[BubberMiley]

People are obliged to act according to their best interests, and if they have a house in once place and no hope of getting one in a place that has a lower unemployment rate, it might be in their best interest to stay. There are all sorts of complicating factors that might make it less than advantageous to move to Alberta. Things are never as simple as you try to make them out to be.

[Montgomery Burns]

GDP per capita is a terrible way to calculate the wealth of the people. If a country has 1 person making 10 billion a year and 999 people making $50 a year...

What country is that?

Your example is grossly unfair.

What if I was the handsomest man in the world?

What if I owned a Turbo Porsche?

What if my condo was worth $1 million?

What if I won $10 million in the lottery tomorrow?

What if my birth certificate said that I was 21 yrs old?

Per capita GDP is the best (it's not perfect) indicator of a country's wealth/standard of living. All reputable economists use per capita GDP first.

another country has 1000 people making $1 000 a year, Which one is better off ?

Probably not this one. It would be economically and technologically stagnant. There is no incentive to get work hard and get ahead. Everyone makes the same. Drop out of school in Grade 9, become a janitor, and laugh at the sucker who went to medical school for 7 years--you're doing just as well as him.

[Riverwind]

Why is their property worthless?

The real estate market in rural Newfoundland moribund. If you can sell a house you would be lucky to get 25K. A drop in the bucket compared to real estate prices in most other locations.

How many ppl in their 50s have no savings?

People who lose their job and have to spend their savings to keep a float while looking for another one.

Whose responsibility is it if you are in your 50s and have no savings?

No one if you spent your savings while looking for another job that you could not find.

Don't bother retraining (if necessary), don't bother moving to a province that is starved for workers. Just sit on EI and when that runs out, go on welfare until you're 65. Now that's personal reponsibility!

Does Alberta offer free training for 50 year old fishermen? How about free housing and food? Didn't think so. Why would a fishermen who can still feed himself with a food fishery and owns his house give that up for the opportunity tp starve on Calgary streets while employers tell him they want younger workers with more training.