Are you a man or a woman?

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Labelling a person doesn't change the person. 

Sure, that's why no black people get  upset if you call them  "muh nigga" 🙄

Labelling people changes the perception of them in the communities they live in. And that can radically affect their lives. 

If labelling people is no big deal then just call a male who identifies as a women a "Man".  I mean, doesn't change who they are right? It's just a label. 

The reason you want phrases like cis  is to dehumanize and objectify people you disagree with. You don't want them to sound 'normal',  and you want a pejorative to use.

That's it.  The terms we had already were perfectly fine. 
 

[Radiorum]

16 hours ago, User said:

I am no more obsessed with this than you and others are with pushing it on me. 

Why do others claiming their rights push you?

16 hours ago, User said:

Their motives are irrelevant to reality. 

Don't force your reality onto other's reality.

[Radiorum]

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Trying to claim that people define what time means on a personal basis  (shut up einstein, i'll deal with you later) or that   65 years can be 53 years if someone identifies that way  is patently insane.  Saying that you personally identify that the sun comes up in the west and set in the east because that's how you prefer to see it would be nuts.  Saying your black when you're white because you identify as black will get your ass kicked by black people. 

This is all just straw man. Get with the program.

 

[Radiorum]

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

in the lie

You give yourself away, despite your trying to fake it.

[Nationalist]

8 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

This is all just straw man. Get with the program.

 

Says the person whose argument is nothing more than a pile of straw.

The program...Radiorum...is to restore common sense to society. That means your fantasy world is gonna meet with more than just social opposition. Its gonna meet with legal opposition.

[Radiorum]

8 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

.is to restore common sense to society. That means your fantasy world is gonna meet with more than just social opposition. Its gonna meet with legal opposition.

Lol, them's fighting words! All because people just want to live their lives.

[CdnFox]

21 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

This is all just straw man. Get with the program.

 

So you know i 'm right and you're dodging the issue. 

Answer the questons. There's no straw man in there (don't make me explain what a straw man argument is to you, try to be smarter than a grade 5 student). 

 

18 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

You give yourself away, despite your trying to fake it.

Now you're just blathering like a tard. 

Fake what? Gave what away?   You're so desperate at having someone call your bullshit out that you can't even articulate your own thoughts anymore. 

[User]

26 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

Why do others claiming their rights push you?

What rights are you talking about?

In this thread, the discussion is about redefining male and female and telling me I have to be called cisgender. 

26 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

Don't force your reality onto other's reality.

What is the reality you think I am forcing onto someone else?

You were talking about what someone believes themselves to be, in regards to them altering their image to look like it... if it was a reality they were the opposite sex than they are, they wouldn't need to have surgery. 

2 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

Lol, them's fighting words! All because people just want to live their lives.

This thread had not been about, nor has your various arguments here been about, merely living their lives. 

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Radiorum said:

Lol, them's fighting words! All because people just want to live their lives.

but you don't. You want to live other people's lives as well. You want to tell them what to say, what to think, You want to tell them what genitals they must look at, you want to take their children away whenever you feel like it.

Go live your life. Nobody stopping you. You're welcome to it. But when you step on our lives expect us to step on your neck. 

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Radiorum said:

Lol, them's fighting words! All because people just want to live their lives.

They are free to live their lives. They are not free to dress out of uniform. Nor are they free to act lewd in public. 

[Scott75]

On 12/22/2024 at 7:46 PM, Radiorum said:

On 12/21/2024 at 6:14 AM, Scott75 said:

I've seen some of the posters here talk about hormones/hormone blockers and surgery as generally bad things and the thing is, I've always been fairly sympathetic to that viewpoint. I've certainly stated that I don't think that minors should be using them and I'm even skeptical that it's truly the best solution for many adults. But it all comes back to, why do people of any age feel that these things are necessary? I've come to think that it's precisely because many people who identify as trans don't feel that they can be accepted if they don't conform to gender norms and so they start to think that their best choice is to get the hormones/hormone blockers and/or surgery.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think any transgender person who undergoes transition does it to be their authentic self.

I know a lot of sources that say that this is true for the majority of people undergoing transgender surgery. But there are other cases that are definitely not in that category. I suspect the majority of these cases are where the person undergoing surgery is a minor. An article on this:

https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

I suspect the majority of these cases are where the person undergoing surgery is a minor. 

I think it would be a good idea to ban body modification surgery under 18 years old. After all, we don't allow tattoos. 

Seems pretty inconsistent. 

There is a problem though in that many or most such surgeries are for CIS children.  A wealthy parent would probably start screaming parents rights if they weren't allowed to buy Little Debbie a Breast implant.

[Scott75]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think it would be a good idea to ban body modification surgery under 18 years old. After all, we don't allow tattoos. 

Seems pretty inconsistent. 

Agreed. I think tatoos are generally -much- less impactful then transgender surgery.

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

There is a problem though in that many or most such surgeries are for CIS children.  A wealthy parent would probably start screaming parents rights if they weren't allowed to buy Little Debbie a Breast implant.

From the article I linked to, it doesn't appear to be the parents that are the main issue here. From the article I referenced in my previous post:

**

Although medical intervention for minors requires parental consent, many mothers and fathers approve surgery and hormone therapy at the recommendation of affirming medical professionals or even out of fear their child might self-harm if denied treatment.

“It’s very hard for parents to know exactly how to evaluate their own kids, and they rely quite heavily on experts to tell them,” said Jane Wheeler, a former regulatory health-care attorney who founded Rethink Identity Medicine Ethics, a non-profit that promotes ethical, evidence-based care and treatment for dysphoric children. “There’s obviously a lot of concern about the capacity for the adolescent or minor to fully appreciate what medicalization really means.”

Medical professionals typically follow the affirmative-care model, which is supported by the American Psychological Association, validating a patient’s expressed gender identity regardless of their age. As a result, detransitioners frequently report that getting prescriptions is a breeze. A total of 55% said their medical evaluations felt inadequate, according to Dr. Littman’s survey.

In Helena’s case, all it took to get a testosterone prescription was one trip to Planned Parenthood when she was 18. She said she was given four times the typical starting dose by a nurse practitioner in less than an hour, without ever seeing a doctor.

Chloe said she was fast-tracked through her entire transition — from blockers to a mastectomy — in just two years, with parental consent. The only pushback she said she encountered came from the first endocrinologist she saw, who agreed to prescribe her puberty blockers but not testosterone when she was 13. But she said she went to another doctor who gave her the prescription with no trouble.

“Because all the therapists and specialists followed the affirmative care model, there wasn’t a lot of gate-keeping throughout the whole transition process,” she recalled. “The professionals all seemed to push medical transition, so I thought it was the only path for me to be happy.”

Evans, the author of “Gender Dysphoria: A Therapeutic Model for Working with Children, Adolescents, and Young Adults,” now runs his own private practice with his wife in Beckenham, England, where he helps parents struggling with how to address their children’s dysphoria.

A variety of studies suggest that as many as 80% of dysphoric children could ultimately experience “desistance”— or coming to terms with their biological gender without resorting to transition. Which is why many professionals like Evans think it’s wise to hold off on potentially irreversible medical intervention for as long as possible. “I’m not against transition. I just don’t think kids can give informed consent.”

**

 

 

Some other very interesting things from the article on consequences of transition therapy:

**

For those who ultimately end up regretting their transition, the consequences of hormone therapy and surgery can be devastating. For Helena, testosterone caused emotional instability that culminated with two hospitalizations for self-harm.

While in the hospital she came to the realization that her transition was a mistake. “I saw a montage of photos of me, and when I saw how much my face changed and how unhappy I looked, I realized this was all f****d up and I shouldn’t have done it. It was a really dark time.”

Chloe said testosterone altered her bone structure, permanently sharpening her jawline and broadening her shoulders. She said she also struggles with increased body and facial hair. She has a large scar across her chest from her mastectomy, which disturbed her about surgery. “The recovery was a very graphic process, and it was definitely something I wasn’t prepared for,” she said. “I couldn’t even bear to look at myself sometimes. It would make me nauseous.”

Gravest of all concerns is her fertility. Although she’d like to have children one day, Chloe doesn’t know whether the viability of her eggs was compromised by years of testosterone injections. She’s working with doctors to find out, and her medical future is uncertain. “I’m still in the dark about the overall picture of my health right now,” she said.

• • •

The subject of detransitioning is often met with vitriol from the transgender activist community, which claims that stories like Chloe’s and Helena’s will be used to discredit the trans movement as a whole. 

This is understandable, although unlikely, as research reveals that up to 86% of trans adults feel that transitioning was the right long-term decision for them. But, as more and more children are entrusted to make serious medical decisions with permanent implications, the numbers of disaffected detransitioners is almost certain to grow.

That’s why Dr. Anderson feels compelled to speak out on their behalf, as a transgender woman herself. “Some of my colleagues are worried that conversation about detransitioners is going to be more cannon fodder in the culture wars, but my concern is that if we don’t address these problems, there will be even more ammunition to criticize the appropriate work that I and other colleagues are doing.”

And, like Anderson, these young people — who will forever live with the consequences of hasty transition — refuse to be silenced. “I want my voice to be heard,” said Chloe. “I don’t want history to repeat itself. I can’t let this happen to other kids.”

**

 

[Michael Hardner]

18 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

 

From the article I linked to, it doesn't appear to be the parents that are the main issue here. 

Since they have to approve the surgery, I disagree.

[Scott75]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

55 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

From the article I linked to, it doesn't appear to be the parents that are the main issue here.

Since they have to approve the surgery, I disagree.

They're certainly an -integral- part of the issue, but I think what I quoted after the sentence you quoted is crucial. Those who'd like to see the actual quote can go back to the post Michael was responding to, but the gist of it is that many parents who agree to allow their children to get transgender hormones/hormone blockers and surgery rely on what some here might call "medical experts" (I'm definitely thinking of robosmith here, he seems to have a real thing for such people). For a long time now, I think that people place -way- too much trust in such people and the results can frequently be quite tragic.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Scott75

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

They're certainly an -integral- part of the issue, but I think what I quoted after the sentence you quoted is crucial. Those who'd like to see the actual quote can go back to the post Michael was responding to, but the gist of it is that many parents who agree to allow their children to get transgender hormones/hormone blockers and surgery rely on what some here might call "medical experts" (I'm definitely thinking of robosmith here, he seems to have a real thing for such people). For a long time now, I think that people place -way- too much trust in such people and the results can frequently be quite tragic.

Well medical experts are divided.  Not sure what you want to do about that.  

 

There are principles in play here..

[Scott75]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:53 AM, User said:

On 12/16/2024 at 4:06 AM, Scott75 said:

On 12/14/2024 at 9:58 AM, User said:

When you go fill out forms for male or female, there is no standard box for cis as you are arguing for now.

You seem to think that because there is no standard box for cis in forms, this means that the vast majority of people would mind trans people saying they are the gender they identify with. If that is what you're suggesting, you've presented no evidence for this.

You are conflating two different things: Calling normal people cis, and having a problem with trans people calling themselves male or female. 

Show me the evidence you have for why this is a problem that needs to be solved with calling normal people cis. 

You have presented none. 

First of all, I'd like to say that I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that if you're going to call normal people cis, the implication is that trans people are abnormal. Your problem is that you seem to want to keep on forgetting that not everyone defines male and female the way you do. If a person defines a woman as anyone who identifies as a woman, then looking women in a dating app may yield some results one would like to avoid. By simply allowing a second word to define the -category- of women one is looking for, such as cis, one could resolve this problem.

[Scott75]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

11 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

They're certainly an -integral- part of the issue, but I think what I quoted after the sentence you quoted is crucial. Those who'd like to see the actual quote can go back to the post Michael was responding to, but the gist of it is that many parents who agree to allow their children to get transgender hormones/hormone blockers and surgery rely on what some here might call "medical experts" (I'm definitely thinking of robosmith here, he seems to have a real thing for such people). For a long time now, I think that people place -way- too much trust in such people and the results can frequently be quite tragic.

Well medical experts are divided.  Not sure what you want to do about that.

More discussions I think. More articles like the one I linked to previously. For the audience, that would be this one:

https://nypost.com/2022/06/18/detransitioned-teens-explain-why-they-regret-changing-genders/

8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

There are principles in play here..

Could you elaborate on what principles you're referring to?

[Scott75]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:55 AM, User said:

On 12/16/2024 at 3:27 AM, Scott75 said:

On 11/16/2024 at 1:43 PM, User said:

Like I said, you are the one creating this problem

What problem do you think I am creating?

Oh, OK. So you don't think there is a problem that requires calling normal people cis now. Great. Glad you agree. 

You are aware that there is a difference between there being a problem and me creating one, right?

[Scott75]

On 12/16/2024 at 9:06 AM, Deluge said:

That's not how you spell Phoenix, so it's Phoenix75. Get it right. 

I find it rather comical that you think there's some sort of spell check for online monikers :-p. While I was certainly inspired in part by the mythical creature called the Phoenix, as well as Marvel's incarnation of this creature, I put the y in there for a different reason, having to do with the river Styx. Anyway, I've now switched to the name I go by in my daily life, as I've come to the conclusion that my reasons for initially going with Phoenyx are outweighed by how it's been received.

[Deluge]

1 minute ago, Scott75 said:

I find it rather comical that you think there's some sort of spell check for online monikers :-p. While I was certainly inspired in part by the mythical creature called the Phoenix, as well as Marvel's incarnation of this creature, I put the y in there for a different reason, having to do with the river Styx. Anyway, I've now switched to the name I go by in my daily life, as I've come to the conclusion that my reasons for initially going with Phoenyx are outweighed by how it's been received.

The Phoenix has nothing to do with the river Styx. What's your problem, son?

Oh, and you've misspelled Scott '75. 

[Scott75]

On 12/16/2024 at 9:06 AM, Deluge said:

On 12/15/2024 at 9:11 PM, Scott75 said:

Secondly, I'm guessing that by "this country", you mean the U.S.? If so, the fact that Trump was elected doesn't mean that debates on things to do with transgenderism and other LGBTQ issues is over. Furthermore, people didn't just vote for Trump because of his stance on LGBTQ issues. Trump has a lot of stances. Some I even agree with, such as his stance to stop helping Ukraine bomb Russia.

I never said the debates on trannies is over, I'm just saying that their agenda is overreach and it needs to be put back in its place. The fight will be ongoing, and I expect morality to win this one.

First of all, there's no need to insult transgender people. For those who don't know, the term tranny/trannies is generally considered to be an insult at this point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranny

Secondly, I've seen no evidence transgender people don't have a unified agenda.

As to overreach, we agree that some things, such as transitioning hormones/hormone blockers and surgery is generally not a good thing, at least for minors. We clearly disagree on other issues. I also expect morality will win, we just have different ideas on what is moral on a lot of things in this area.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Scott75

[Deluge]

21 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

First of all, there's no need to insult transgender people. For those who don't know, the term tranny/trannies is generally considered to be an insult at this point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tranny

Secondly, I've seen no evidence transgender people don't have a unified agenda.

As to overreach, we agree that some things, such as transitioning hormones/hormone blockers and surgery is generally not a good thing, at least for minors. We clearly disagree on other issues. I also expect morality will win, we just have different ideas on what is moral on a lot of things in this area.

There's ALWAYS a need to insult agenda pushers, and most trannies are agenda pushers, if not all of them. The insults must continue until they either withdraw, or until we're able to outlaw their agenda. 

You've seen plenty of evidence; you've even argued for it. You're just in denial.  

You have no morals; that's the difference. 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Deluge

[Scott75]

31 minutes ago, Deluge said:

The Phoenix has nothing to do with the river Styx.

Both the Phoenix and the river Styx have elements in common. For starters, they are both associated with life and death, the Phoenix being a creature that is reborn upon its death and the river Styx being the boundary between the world of the living and the world of the dead. This is actually not why I chose to mix the Phoenix and the river Styx in my moniker though. The reason had to do with a book I read which seemed to suggest that the concept of Hell originated from a place in Greece, and that an underground series of caverns with a river in it is where the original river Styx came from. I'm no longer sure where I read all of this, but I -think- it was in Michael Bagent's book The Jesus Papers. 

[User]

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

First of all, I'd like to say that I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that if you're going to call normal people cis, the implication is that trans people are abnormal. Your problem is that you seem to want to keep on forgetting that not everyone defines male and female the way you do. If a person defines a woman as anyone who identifies as a woman, then looking women in a dating app may yield some results one would like to avoid. By simply allowing a second word to define the -category- of women one is looking for, such as cis, one could resolve this problem.

Trans people are abnormal. 

I have not forgotten that people like you want to try to change the meaning of male and female to the nonsensical gibberish you do. I soundly reject it. 

So, your big argument now is that trans people should be able to trick and deceive people on a dating app? Nothing is stopping them from doing that now. It is a lie either way. 

There is no problem here to solve. Men are men. Women are women. Trans people are Trans people. 

 

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

You are aware that there is a difference between there being a problem and me creating one, right?

There is no problem.