The horrors of abortion which our governments support

[suds]

16 hours ago, blackbird said:

It is an unfortunate situation, but it would still not justify murdering a baby.  It is a human's life we are talking about.  Rape is a serious crime and should have serious consequences.  

 

The whole point of the OP is that government laws and policies enabling abortion are wicked or evil.  Legality does not equate to what is right in God's sight in this subject.  Therefore saying it is legal is no argument.

You might be right. The laws and policies enabling abortion are nothing to be proud of. On the other hand, one would be a fool to believe that making abortion illegal would end it either. It would just take us back to a place and time where we don't really want to be.

[blackbird]

10 minutes ago, suds said:

You might be right. The laws and policies enabling abortion are nothing to be proud of. On the other hand, one would be a fool to believe that making abortion illegal would end it either. It would just take us back to a place and time where we don't really want to be.

As a matter of principle, something immoral and evil such as killing babies, should not be legal  That sends a very bad message.   Vast numbers of people are using abortion for birth control.  Government should outlaw it.  At the same time, the government should make it as easy as possible to put the baby up for adoption.  Government simply cannot control or even think they can control every thing that people do in society.

[suds]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

As a matter of principle, something immoral and evil such as killing babies, should not be legal  That sends a very bad message.   Vast numbers of people are using abortion for birth control.  Government should outlaw it.  At the same time, the government should make it as easy as possible to put the baby up for adoption.  Government simply cannot control or even think they can control every thing that people do in society.

Since there's really nothing I can see how government gains from abortion, I would have to imagine they're doing what the majority of Canadians have decided they want. Not to mention the Supreme court had a say in this.

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, suds said:

Since there's really nothing I can see how government gains from abortion, I would have to imagine they're doing what the majority of Canadians have decided they want. Not to mention the Supreme court had a say in this.

Yes, I believe that is correct.  However, going by a majority, particularly the most vocal ones, does not mean the government is leading in an honourable or righteous way.  Perhaps they are doing it for votes if the majority favour something.  This is not leadership in a good way.  This is following the masses.  This is why Canada is a heathen country.

Our leaders have cheapened the value of human life.  That is why we have assisted suicide and that has been expanding ever since it was brought in.  Life is not sacred any more.  Canadians should fear too because this could also affect millions of citizens.  Canada has rejected the sanctity of human life.

The public health care system is already being affected.  It is failing in many ways and the ideology of many politicians might be "oh well, we only have so much money to put into health care and if a few thousand die because of lack of care, so what?  We the political leaders have done our part.  Why get upset about it if government is already spending so many billion dollars for health care?  We can't help everyone.  We political leaders don't believe life is sacred.  You get what we can afford.  We already have assisted suicide and thousands of abortions, so what's the big deal about the health care system?  That's the end of it.

[suds]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes, I believe that is correct.  However, going by a majority, particularly the most vocal ones, does not mean the government is leading in an honourable or righteous way.  Perhaps they are doing it for votes if the majority favour something.  This is not leadership in a good way.  This is following the masses.  This is why Canada is a heathen country.

Our leaders have cheapened the value of human life.  That is why we have assisted suicide and that has been expanding ever since it was brought in.  Life is not sacred any more.  Canadians should fear too because this could also affect millions of citizens.  Canada has rejected the sanctity of human life.

The public health care system is already being affected.  It is failing in many ways and the ideology of many politicians might be "oh well, we only have so much money to put into health care and if a few thousand die because of lack of care, so what?  We the political leaders have done our part.  Why get upset about it if government is already spending so many billion dollars for health care?  We can't help everyone.  We political leaders don't believe life is sacred.  You get what we can afford.  We already have assisted suicide and thousands of abortions, so what's the big deal about the health care system?  That's the end of it.

To my knowledge most governments do not or have never recognized the sanctity of life. Governments kill people all the time. They create weapons of mass destruction, and send young men and women off to war. We have a monopolistic healthcare system that decides who lives and who dies. Depending on circumstances, sometimes there are no honourable or righteous ways of doing things. As for politics, try and get elected  by claiming you want to outlaw abortion. That's a pretty tough nut to crack in most cases.

Edited August 5, 2024 by suds

[NAME REMOVED]

17 hours ago, blackbird said:

It is an unfortunate situation, but it would still not justify murdering a baby.  It is a human's life we are talking about.  Rape is a serious crime and should have serious consequences.  

Its not ""murdering a baby." Its aborting a fetus, which is completely different.  I''m just thankful that I live in a country where these types of views are in the extreme minority.

17 hours ago, blackbird said:

 

The whole point of the OP is that government laws and policies enabling abortion are wicked or evil. 

They are only wicked or evil to men who want to rule over women''s bodies. No different than the Taliban.

17 hours ago, blackbird said:

 

Legality does not equate to what is right in God's sight in this subject.  Therefore saying it is legal is no argument.

You are in Canada, where there is separation between the church and state. The laws and the constitution of Canada trump any biblical passages.

[User]

6 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

Its not ""murdering a baby." Its aborting a fetus, which is completely different.  I''m just thankful that I live in a country where these types of views are in the extreme minority.

They certainly are not killing baby turtles. 

I don't like the murder language, but the unborn child is certainly a human life. Not sure about the polling in Canada, but in America, while most people do not support an outright ban on the practice, the majority do support limits at viability, where it is quite obvious what the unborn child is. 

I imagine it is likely the same up in Canada. 

8 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

They are only wicked or evil to men who want to rule over women''s bodies. No different than the Taliban.

The unborn child is not the woman's body. 

 

[NAME REMOVED]

2 minutes ago, User said:

I don't like the murder language, but the unborn child is certainly a human life. Not sure about the polling in Canada, but in America, while most people do not support an outright ban on the practice, the majority do support limits at viability, where it is quite obvious what the unborn child is. 

I imagine it is likely the same up in Canada. 

 

"The Leger poll found 80 per cent of Canadians surveyed were in favour of a woman's right to abortion — including 63 per cent who were strongly in favour — while 11 per cent were opposed. Support was slightly higher among women than men — 84 per cent to 76 per cent — and among Canadians over the age of 55."

 

source: https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/how-most-canadians-feel-about-abortion-according-to-a-poll-1.6890995

 

Far more Canadians support a Woman's right to choose to carry or abort her fetus in Canada than in the US.

[User]

29 minutes ago, suds said:

To my knowledge most governments do not or have never recognized the sanctity of life. Governments kill people all the time. They create weapons of mass destruction, and send young men and women off to war. We have a monopolistic healthcare system that decides who lives and who dies. Depending on circumstances, sometimes there are no honourable or righteous ways of doing things. As for politics, try and get elected  by claiming you want to outlaw abortion. That's a pretty tough nut to crack in most cases.

The sanctity of life means that all human life has a value and it should not be violated. In order to protect life, sometimes life must be taken. Governments should be involved in just uses of force, but use of force is required to protect life sometimes. 

 

4 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

Far more Canadians support a Woman's right to choose to carry or abort her fetus in Canada than in the US.

That is a poll about the right to an abortion... it doesn't cover any restrictions such as those at viability. 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

My point is the law is wrong and evil.

Your point is purely opinion based.

What is wrong about it? Jesus? God? Thats not even an answer. 

Speeding is wrong, but I can tell you why citing actual data. You aren't citing any.

You can't even think outside the box enough to give your own opinion about what makes it wrong, outside of regurgitated quotes from your Bible.

You don't even know what you're talking about.

That's my point.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

something immoral and evil such as killing babies, should not be legal

Why?

How is it immoral?

What data, can you prove that is medical and scientific, that the fetus feels a thing when aborted prior to 25 weeks?

You feel life shouldn't be aborted, but that is your opinion. You have yet to support any of your points with medical or scientific data.

Your Bible means nothing.

Afghanistan is the level of country you're working with, when all of the laws are governed by an antiquated book.

You have failed to present how this is a good thing.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

That sends a very bad message.

That women have freedom over their bodies? 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Vast numbers of people are using abortion for birth control.

Okay, and? 

Do I agree with this? Of course not  but I believe in their right to do so, as long as done in a manner that doesn't cause suffering to the fetus.

I would much rather someone know they are unfit and do something about it, than to add to the kids in foster care or the streets, because you think your book vs the reality means more.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Government should outlaw it.  

I hope you never have a daughter. 

I dated a woman who had been molested and called a w***e seeking attention, making her silence her voice.

In her culture, premarital sex was unnacceptable.

Again, you're working with backwards thinking like this, in feeling removing women's rights is a good thing.

Conservative leaders siding with you, lose sight of the reality, and as a result lose the room.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Government simply cannot control or even think they can control every thing that people do in society.

Yet your views would be calling for more government control. 

[blackbird]

34 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Your Bible means nothing.

I can understand where you're coming from.  This is the crux of the matter.

What you're saying does not surprise me because you have clearly pointed out the reason why you feel the way you do.

So there is no point in us debating or more accurately arguing over the things we have. 

The central issue remains and is one we should try to understand each other better and that is on the issue of what part does God play in all this and what does his written revelation have to do with it.  If you say the Bible means nothing, then we must really examine the reasons why you believe that.  We should both have an open mind and try to understand each other better and where we as individuals are coming from. 

The only hope for us in this world is in understanding certain crucial things.  I hope you will show an open mind and maybe as time goes on we will be able to understand each other better.   We achieve nothing by just arguing the same old points back and forth over and over. 

I hope you will be willing to elevate the discussion to a better path.  I could probably learn a lot myself if we did.  Cheers.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

If you say the Bible means nothing, then we must really examine the reasons why you believe that. 

I don't need an antiquated book to live righteously.

I don't need an antiquated book, to tell me wrong from right.

Many who follow these so called "correct" books, from the Quran to the Bible, are literally responsible for unthinkable levels of human suffering, historically. Slaughter. War.

Look at human history, and look at wars caused by religious differences, and again, come and tell me that your Bible is an accurate way to discern the value of human life.

I think we are beyond help, when we need a book to tell us how to treat each other.

The book is the least of our problems, if we need to sift through a book to figure that treating others like dirt isn't good.

I grew up extremely poor. No government, no book. I had to pull up my boot straps, and my family out of it.

There is no God.

I respect my wife's beliefs, and the beauty, is she respects mine. I go to church with her every Sunday, to show support.

But she knows better than to try to force views onto me.

She knows I attend out of respect for her. She doesn't force the issue, out of the same purpose.

You made the mistake in dictating what and how a woman should have her body governed.

There should be a certain humility when you're a believer in God. 

There are causes greater than oneself. 

Just maybe, to live and let live.

Understanding you can't make someone a believer. Its a conscious choice. One you should be respectful of.

Crazy what happens when you respect others.

I worked with a white woman who was incredibly "woke".

Am black.

She was upset at my lack of anger, regarding the racism I our world. 

I told her I experienced racism quite a bit in my life. I could be angry, or live my best life, forgiving such people and refusing to allow them to lower me to the level of which they see me as.

She saw this as weak. My refusal to constantly fight over every slight, was me accepting the racism, in her view. Vs realizing that I couldn't tamp out every single slight. I would go insane, or be incredibly bitter and jaded. I choose happy.

What you're doing, is telling women how they should live their life. 

You're no different than that white co-worker who had never experienced racism, telling me how I should feel about it.

[blackbird]

39 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't need an antiquated book to live righteously.

I don't need an antiquated book, to tell me wrong from right.

Many who follow these so called "correct" books, from the Quran to the Bible, are literally responsible for unthinkable levels of human suffering, historically. Slaughter. War.

Look at human history, and look at wars caused by religious differences, and again, come and tell me that your Bible is an accurate way to discern the value of human life.

I think we are beyond help, when we need a book to tell us how to treat each other.

The book is the least of our problems, if we need to sift through a book to figure that treating others like dirt isn't good.

I grew up extremely poor. No government, no book. I had to pull up my boot straps, and my family out of it.

There is no God.

I respect my wife's beliefs, and the beauty, is she respects mine. I go to church with her every Sunday, to show support.

But she knows better than to try to force views onto me.

She knows I attend out of respect for her. She doesn't force the issue, out of the same purpose.

You made the mistake in dictating what and how a woman should have her body governed.

There should be a certain humility when you're a believer in God. 

There are causes greater than oneself. 

Just maybe, to live and let live.

Understanding you can't make someone a believer. Its a conscious choice. One you should be respectful of.

Crazy what happens when you respect others.

I worked with a white woman who was incredibly "woke".

Am black.

She was upset at my lack of anger, regarding the racism I our world. 

I told her I experienced racism quite a bit in my life. I could be angry, or live my best life, forgiving such people and refusing to allow them to lower me to the level of which they see me as.

She saw this as weak. My refusal to constantly fight over every slight, was me accepting the racism, in her view. Vs realizing that I couldn't tamp out every single slight. I would go insane, or be incredibly bitter and jaded. I choose happy.

What you're doing, is telling women how they should live their life. 

You're no different than that white co-worker who had never experienced racism, telling me how I should feel about it.

Thanks for the detailed reply.  You make many good points.  I will have to digest them and read it over again carefully.  I will reply at least to some of it.  There is a lot there to digest.  I need time to study it.

[User]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

You made the mistake in dictating what and how a woman should have her body governed.

The unborn child is not a woman's body. It is a distinct human life. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Just maybe, to live and let live.

This is a subject about killing the unborn child... and you are here telling us to live and let live? That is EXACTLY what we are talking about for the unborn child. 

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

What you're doing, is telling women how they should live their life. 

No, we are saying that killing the unborn child is wrong. 

I don't need to force any Biblical views on you to make these points. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

8 hours ago, blackbird said:

Human life begins at conception.   Is there some magic that makes it become a human at some particular time later?

So when the egg divides into two cells then the two cells alone is a human life?

[User]

17 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So when the egg divides into two cells then the two cells alone is a human life?

It certainly is not a turtle. 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, User said:

to live and let live?

I think you are smart enough to understand the expression I was using, to respect the decisions (lawful ones) one makes with their bodies, even if you don't agree with them.

I don't agree with women who use multiple abortions as a means of contraceptive, vs actual contraceptives, but I respect her right to make that decision. Point being made.

Especially, a legal adult.

41 minutes ago, User said:

No, we are saying that killing the unborn child is wrong

In your opinion. 

I have supported my opinion with actual data. The OP has failed to do so, making it solely opinion based.

You're entitled to feel this is wrong, but aren't entitled to lie about medically refuted propaganda, and claim it as fact.

This is where we are having the disconnect.

44 minutes ago, User said:

I don't need to force any Biblical views on you to make these points. 

Okay, then why is it wrong?

Especially so, if done safely (in Canada at least), the fetus experiences no pain).

Why is it wrong? More importantly, who are you, to tell a woman that her decision is wrong. 

What evidence that is not biblical, do you have, to prove this?

You said it, yourself:

46 minutes ago, User said:

I don't need to force any Biblical views on you to make these points. 

[Guest]

Poilievre echoing US politicians and feeling he should remove abortion rights from women, would literally give the election back to Trudeau.

It would be political suicide.

Heck, I would vote against him, even though he ticks all my boxes as a preferred leader into the upcoming election. Many would follow suit.

I am surrounded by strong women. Was raised by one. Suppressing their voices or what they can do with their bodies, is utterly unnacceptable to me as a voter.

If he is smart, he would leave things as is, and don't break it if it isn't broken.

[blackbird]

42 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So when the egg divides into two cells then the two cells alone is a human life?

No.  When the sperm enters the egg and unites with it, a new human is formed with the characteristics of the new baby such as gender, hair colour, and a hundred other things.  It is a new human being at that moment of conception.

If you google "youtube fertilization" you can watch any of a number of short videos that show how this happens.  New life is formed in the process of fertilization of conception.

 

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Its not ""murdering a baby." Its aborting a fetus, which is completely different.  I''m just thankful that I live in a country where these types of views are in the extreme minority.

Actually I just googled youtube fertilization and watched a five minute video on the process.  Give it a try and see what you think. I gave a link below.  Only a few minutes long.   It is a human being at the moment of conception even though not developed fully.  Developing into an adult is long process that begins at conception.  If you want to call the pre-born baby a fetus that's ok too.  It doesn't change the fact it is a human being, just at a different stage than a baby out of the womb or a 3 yr old, 10 yr old, teenager of 18, and then 24 yrs of age.  There are stages to development.  It all begins at fertilization or conception. 

Bing Videos

Edited August 6, 2024 by blackbird

[herbie]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

My point is the law is wrong and evil.

What law? There is no law. How can something that doesn't exist be wrong and evil?

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Why?

How is it immoral?

What data, can you prove that is medical and scientific, that the fetus feels a thing when aborted prior to 25 weeks?

You feel life shouldn't be aborted, but that is your opinion. You have yet to support any of your points with medical or scientific data.

Your Bible means nothing.

Afghanistan is the level of country you're working with, when all of the laws are governed by an antiquated book.

You have failed to present how this is a good thing.

That women have freedom over their bodies? 

Okay, and? 

Do I agree with this? Of course not  but I believe in their right to do so, as long as done in a manner that doesn't cause suffering to the fetus.

I would much rather someone know they are unfit and do something about it, than to add to the kids in foster care or the streets, because you think your book vs the reality means more.

I hope you never have a daughter. 

I dated a woman who had been molested and called a w***e seeking attention, making her silence her voice.

In her culture, premarital sex was unnacceptable.

Again, you're working with backwards thinking like this, in feeling removing women's rights is a good thing.

Conservative leaders siding with you, lose sight of the reality, and as a result lose the room.

Yet your views would be calling for more government control. 

 

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

How is it immoral?

What data, can you prove that is medical and scientific, that the fetus feels a thing when aborted prior to 25 weeks?

You feel life shouldn't be aborted, but that is your opinion. You have yet to support any of your points with medical or scientific data.

Your Bible means nothing.

Afghanistan is the level of country you're working with, when all of the laws are governed by an antiquated book.

You have failed to present how this is a good thing.

That women have freedom over their bodies? 

Okay, and? 

Do I agree with this? Of course not  but I believe in their right to do so, as long as done in a manner that doesn't cause suffering to the fetus.

I would much rather someone know they are unfit and do something about it, than to add to the kids in foster care or the streets, because you think your book vs the reality means more.

I hope you never have a daughter. 

I dated a woman who had been molested and called a w***e seeking attention, making her silence her voice.

In her culture, premarital sex was unnacceptable.

Again, you're working with backwards thinking like this, in feeling removing women's rights is a good thing.

Conservative leaders siding with you, lose sight of the reality, and as a result lose the room.

Yet your views would be calling for more government control. 

-Well technically the taking of human life is immoral, or so we are lead to believe, not just in the bible but in our own morals and values, and laws...

- Do you think it would matter if the fetus could feel pain, would this be a consideration for most women, i mean for the vast majority of abortions are for convenience, laziness, forgetfulness....i mean in todays world there are millions of preventive solutions to not get pregnant..Most adults are aware of what happens in this operation rooms, where the fetus is literally torn apart either by suction of medical instrument and then suck out... and if they are not aware they should be...

Many in the medical community believe there’s clear evidence that a fetus – a developing baby in the womb – can’t feel physical pain until after the 24th week (6th month) of pregnancy. But other scientists say it’s possible for a fetus to feel pain as early as 12 weeks (3 months) into its development. 

https://www.webmd.com/baby/when-can-a-fetus-feel-pain-in-the-womb

Well one of the reason we have immigration is becasue of low birth rates, because we make it so easy to abort...there is that and of course the economical benefits that go with that...Not life altering but they are valid reasons.

I'm not a very religious person, i've talked to the big guy once or twice, made some wicked promises to him while in Afghanistan when i thought i would not make it home...but i do believe in god, i do believe that a lot of our laws and morals and values are based on the bible and gods teachings. for me it is a personal thing...i don't force it on anyone nor do i preach like some others.  

We live in a country were we need stuff now , we live for convenience and in most cases that what abortion represents, nothing more than an option...regardless of what the medical facts are, such as does the baby feel pain, Here in Canada babys have no rights until they are able to survive on their own...

Do we really have control over our own bodies...i think Thats somewhat misleading, even for trans people they need to seek permission through others to actually get surgery performed...people that have repeatedly tried unsuccessfully to commit suicide have been forced into mental health facilities for there own good....you can't just walk into a hospital and tell them to cut your arm off....i want to see what it is like...What we have given women is control over her reproductive status...she can decide if she is going to give birth or not....she can end that fetus life by herself or through medical assistance. but nothing more...

Our laws don't protect any fetus, someone could punch your wife in the stomach, forcing the death of the fetus and only be charged with assault...I'm sure any parents would want to see some changes to laws, and unfortunately you can't open those changes in the laws without changing the status of a fetus...

Babies are in great deman dacross the country lists are many years in advance...i don't think many babies would end up in foster care, but rather adopted right away....

I have two daughters, and many granddaughters...i understand everything that a unwanted pregnancy brings, and i still a firm believer that every life is a gift. 

I think the whole abortion topic is restricted because nobody wants to discuss it the good , bad , ugly....but is this just about women's rights...we have laws that protect animals, almost everything else but none that protect human fetus....they been downgraded to medical waste...

 

[User]

49 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I think you are smart enough to understand the expression I was using, to respect the decisions (lawful ones) one makes with their bodies, even if you don't agree with them.

I also think you are smart enough to understand the core tenets of the pro-life position as well, yet you use these pro-choice quips as if you don't. 

51 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't agree with women who use multiple abortions as a means of contraceptive, vs actual contraceptives, but I respect her right to make that decision. Point being made.

Especially, a legal adult.

Why. Why don't you agree with them doing that? I am a bit curious as to your reasoning there. It seems you do not believe the unborn child is a human life with any right to life, so what does it matter if a woman has an abortion as a matter of routine as nothing more than a contraceptive?

53 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

In your opinion. 

So... do you think a woman killing her 5 year old is wrong?

This seems like such a silly argument to quibble over, so we need to set some base line standards here. Do you think killing anyone is wrong for the mere convenience of it?
 

55 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

You're entitled to feel this is wrong, but aren't entitled to lie about medically refuted propaganda, and claim it as fact.

Not sure why you are directing this comment to me. Have I lied about something here?

55 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Okay, then why is it wrong?

Back to the question above... we need to establish some baseline morality here. Do you think killing anyone is wrong for the mere convenience of it? Do you think a mother killing her 5 year old child is OK?

You might as well be asking me to explain to you why either of those are wrong. 

My position is that the unborn child is a human life with a right to life. If you don't think any human has this kind of right to life... well, we have bigger issues than abortion to talk about here. 

On that note, is there any point in the pregnancy you think the unborn child is a human life with a right to life or is it the woman right to choose up to the moment of birth for you?

 

9 minutes ago, herbie said:

What law? There is no law. How can something that doesn't exist be wrong and evil?

"the law enables a pregnant women to get an abortion."

 

[herbie]

9 minutes ago, User said:

"the law enables a pregnant women to get an abortion."

There is no abortion law. So just like with wrong and evil how does the law enable someone.