Women's Olympic Boxing

[impartialobserver]

1 minute ago, User said:

I always have the receipts for what I say here, if I don't I will admit it. 

"Addressing Lin and Khelif's exclusions in 2023, the IBA's president, Umar Kremlev, said that gender and testorone tests "proved they had XY chromosomes (Y is the male chromosome)." However, neither Lin nor Khelif identify as transgender or intersex."
https://www.newsweek.com/olympic-boxer-lin-yu-ting-win-imane-khelif-1933862

Well if the boxer was born female and does not identify as intersex or trans.. how does the IOC legally bar them from competing? 

[Black Dog]

Just now, User said:

I always have the receipts for what I say here, if I don't I will admit it. 

"Addressing Lin and Khelif's exclusions in 2023, the IBA's president, Umar Kremlev, said that gender and testorone tests "proved they had XY chromosomes (Y is the male chromosome)." However, neither Lin nor Khelif identify as transgender or intersex."
https://www.newsweek.com/olympic-boxer-lin-yu-ting-win-imane-khelif-1933862

 

Quote

 

Khelif reached the final of the 2023 world championships before she was abruptly disqualified by the IBA, which cited high levels of testosterone in her system. The circumstances of that disqualification have been considered highly unusual ever since it happened, and Khelif called it “a big conspiracy” at the time.

She had previously competed without issues and was disqualified by the sport’s governing body only after she defeated Russian boxer Azalia Amineva in the 2023 tournament. The IBA is controlled by Umar Kremlev, who is Russian and brought in the state-owned energy supplier Gazprom as its primary sponsor and moved much of the governing body’s operations to Russia.

 

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-imane-khelif-boxing-paris-2eb07d442ffb29a61e09911884dcdaa9

[robosmith]

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Here you go.  Although you've already decided there is no truth to it and that I just invented a "story".

Boxer leaves ring in tears after second Olympic fighter who failed gender test wins (msn.com)

Thanks. The real story provides CONTEXT.

Quote

‘The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years,’ the statement from the IOC read.

 

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

Thanks. The real story provides CONTEXT.

 

Your accusation was that I invented a "story" and somehow created a screenshot of a fictitious article.

Laziness.  On your part.

You dont' even care about the issue.  

You enjoy seeing women get beaten up by men, I imagine.

[User]

8 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Well if the boxer was born female and does not identify as intersex or trans.. how does the IOC legally bar them from competing? 

By using better gender testing. 

Whether you identify as intersex or trans, doesn't change the biological facts. 

[impartialobserver]

Just now, User said:

By using better gender testing. 

Whether you identify as intersex or trans, doesn't change the biological facts. 

And as I read about this.. there is a spectrum involved. So what would be the threshold or cutoff? My guess is that this threshold would be arrived at from an emotional viewpoint. To do this from a scientific/quantitative viewpoint would not work for society's political leanings. 

[Matthew]

Its interesting that even though this is a woman with natural hormonal differences, the right wing consensus is that it still needs to be dealt with. A lot of top athletes excel at their sports because of biological traits that exceeds what is normal.   why is your natural level of testosterone different?

I always thought this was about policing masculinity, but I think this case and others like it suggests that it's really about policing femininity. Britney Griner looks like a man they say. Caitlin Clark has a slightly protruding Adam's apple, etc. It's a bizarre fixation.

[robosmith]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Your accusation was that I invented a "story" and somehow created a screenshot of a fictitious article.

I said nothing of the kind. Your picture is not worth a thousand words.

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Laziness.  On your part.

ASSumptions on your part.

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You dont' even care about the issue.  

You enjoy seeing women get beaten up by men, I imagine.

I don't watch any kind of fighting. I may have watched 1 or 2 pro boxing matches MANY years ago.

So your imagination has failed you.

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, robosmith said:

I said nothing of the kind. Your picture is not worth a thousand words.

ASSumptions on your part.

I don't watch any kind of fighting. I may have watched 1 or 2 pro boxing matches MANY years ago.

So your imagination has failed you.

I'm going to go with "This guy's a jerk."

[gatomontes99]

46 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

gender isn't sex btw

Worth noting again we don't actually know if this individual has this alleged genetic condition.

Gender = sex = gender = sex.

Same/same

[User]

15 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

And as I read about this.. there is a spectrum involved. So what would be the threshold or cutoff? My guess is that this threshold would be arrived at from an emotional viewpoint. To do this from a scientific/quantitative viewpoint would not work for society's political leanings. 

There is nothing emotional here. She is either intersex or she isn't. That is scientific and quantitative and objective. 

First you tried to play it off like she was just a female... then you tried to play it off like what I said was not based on anything, now after I show you the evidence I was basing my thoughts on you try to muddy the waters with talk of a spectrum. 
 

[impartialobserver]

Hmmm... and Khelif lost to Kellie Harrington (ireland).. so any supposed advantage seems to have not worked on that day. 

[robosmith]

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I'm going to go with "This guy's a jerk."

^Imagination failed again.

[robosmith]

4 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

Gender = sex = gender = sex.

Same/same

^False equivalence:

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

 

gen·der

/ˈjendər/

noun

 

1. 1.

   the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

   "the singer has opted to keep the names and genders of her twins private"

[User]

17 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Its interesting that even though this is a woman with natural hormonal differences, the right wing consensus is that it still needs to be dealt with. A lot of top athletes excel at their sports because of biological traits that exceeds what is normal.   why is your natural level of testosterone different?

I always thought this was about policing masculinity, but I think this case and others like it suggests that it's really about policing femininity. Britney Griner looks like a man they say. Caitlin Clark has a slightly protruding Adam's apple, etc. It's a bizarre fixation.

This is quite the lovely strawman you have built and argued against. 

The consensus is that this female looks like she has the stature of a dude and has in the past been DQ'd for having XY chromosomes, not merely having higher testosterone. 

It is perfectly objective and reasonable to question these things. 

We are not talking about top athletes excelling at their sports... all of the athletes at the Olympics are at the top excelling at sports they are involved in already. 

There is no serious movement trying to remove Britney Griner or Caitlin Clark from competition against other females because they look masculine. 

What is bizarre is how you come up with this stuff instead of just debating and discussing what is actually being said. 
 

[Black Dog]

10 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

Gender = sex = gender = sex.

Same/same

nope.

[Black Dog]

4 minutes ago, User said:

This is quite the lovely strawman you have built and argued against. 

The consensus is that this female looks like she has the stature of a dude and has in the past been DQ'd for having XY chromosomes, not merely having higher testosterone. 

As usual you are very quick to believe claims that support your pre-existing beliefs even when there's no actual evidence presented. Again, there's no firm evidence about the XY claim, just the statement by the hilariously corrupt head of the IBA, an organization that was too corrupt and shady even for the IOC.

 

[User]

Just now, Black Dog said:

As usual you are very quick to believe claims that support your pre-existing beliefs even when there's no actual evidence presented. Again, there's no firm evidence about the XY claim, just the statement by the hilariously corrupt head of the IBA, an organization that was too corrupt and shady even for the IOC.

 

Fact: She was previously DQ'd for this. That is called actual evidence. I mean, besides what we can all see with our own two eyes happen right in front of us. 

I am no more quick to believe this than any of you are quick to dismiss any criticism while proclaiming she is a female as if there is zero question here at all. 

5 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

nope.

Oh great... can you define what a woman is in any meaningful way?

LOL

[Black Dog]

Just now, User said:

Fact: She was previously DQ'd for this. That is called actual evidence. I mean, besides what we can all see with our own two eyes happen right in front of us. 

"She is XY because she was DQ'd for being XY" is a tautology. Actual evidence would be the results of the test the decision to DQ here was based on , not the decision itself.

Quote

I am no more quick to believe this than any of you are quick to dismiss any criticism while proclaiming she is a female as if there is zero question here at all. 

My evidence that she's female is she was born female, lives as female, has female sexual characteristics and has always competed as a woman, and the fact her sex was never in question for her entire career until she had the audacity to defeat a Russian.

 

[Black Dog]

8 minutes ago, User said:

Oh great... can you define what a woman is in any meaningful way?

LOL

Someone who covers their drink when you walk into the bar?

[CouchPotato]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

So you’re saying some people are neither male nor female?

Yes, there are very rare instances where people possess genetic attributes which make it impossible to classify them as being more one than the other. Given that close to a hundred percent of the population is either biologically male or female, those genders are pretty much the standard. A rare anomaly does not constitute a new gender.

Furthermore, if you are attempting to draw a line from these extremely rare genetic cases to the trans phenomenon at large (and I do not know that you are, but it sounds that way), then I think you are on shaky ground. Is the existence of people with extremely rare genetic conditions an argument for giving kids puberty blockers? Is this evidence of a multiplicity of genders? No.

[Black Dog]

Just now, CouchPotato said:

Yes, there are very rare instances where people possess genetic attributes which make it impossible to classify them as being more one than the other. Given that close to a hundred percent of the population is either biologically male or female, those genders are pretty much the standard. A rare anomaly does not constitute a new gender.

So what gender are intersex people?

[Goddess]

14 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

My evidence that she's female is she was born female,

It sounds like one of those cases where there is some kind of a deformity of the genitals at birth.  This article says she was "assigned female at birth".

Who is Imane Khelif? Algerian boxer facing gender outcry had modest success before Olympics (msn.com)

She's from Algeria, so not a particularly progressive country.

I believe nowadays, in this circumstance, it's recommended  that some time is allowed for the child to develop biological or mental traits for whichever sex is dominant and THEN a decision is made on gender.

[CouchPotato]

3 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

So what gender are intersex people?

They don't belong to one.

[CouchPotato]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

Some athletes have genetic abnormalities which make them very tall. Michael Phelps has abnormalities which make him an extraordinary swimmer.

There are tall male swimmers. There are tall female swimmers. There are tall basketball players as Black Dog has pointed out. For some reason that has never been an issue. Yet, there are male and female leagues for sports. Why do you suppose there is a that distinction in the first place? Is it an outdated distinction?

Edited August 2, 2024 by CouchPotato