Israel turbocharges West Bank settlement expansion with largest land grab in decades

BeaverFever · July 3, 2024

Israel turbocharges West Bank settlement expansion with largest land grab in decades

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel has approved the largest seizure of land in the occupied West Bank in over three decades, a settlement tracking group said Wednesday, a move that is likely to worsen already soaring tensions linked to the war in Gaza.

Israel’s aggressive expansion in the West Bank reflects the settler community’s strong influence in the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most religious and nationalist in the country’s history. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a settler himself, has turbocharged the policy of expansion, seizing new authorities over settlement development and saying he aims to solidify Israel’s hold on the territory and prevent the creation of a Palestinian state.

Authorities recently approved the appropriation of 12.7 square kilometers (nearly 5 square miles) of land in the Jordan Valley, according to a copy of the order obtained by The Associated Press. Data from Peace Now, the tracking group, indicate it was the largest single appropriation approved since the 1993 Oslo accords at the start of the peace process.

It is in an area of the West Bank where, e ven before the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war,settler violence was displacing communities of Palestinians. That violence has only surged since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack ignited the war in Gaza. Settlers have carried out more than 1,000 attacks on Palestinians since October in the West Bank, causing deaths and damaging property, according to the U.N.

The land seizure, which was approved late last month but only publicized on Wednesday, comes after the seizure of 8 square kilometers (roughly 3 square miles) of land in the West Bank in March and 2.6 square kilometers (1 square mile) in February.

That makes 2024 by far the peak year for Israeli land seizure in the West Bank, Peace Now said.

By declaring them state lands, the government opens them up to being leased to Israelis and prohibits private Palestinian ownership.

…

Most of the international community considers settlements illegal or illegitimate.

Israel captured the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Mideast war, territories the Palestinians want for a future state. Israel’s current government considers the West Bank to be the historical and religious heartland of the Jewish people and opposes Palestinian statehood.

Israel has built well over 100 settlements across the West Bank, some of which resemble fully developed suburbs or small towns. They are home to over 500,000 Jewish settlers who have Israeli citizenship.

The 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank live under seemingly open-ended Israeli military rule. The Palestinian Authority administers enclaves scattered across the territory, but is barred from operating in 60% of the West Bank, which includes the settlements as well as areas with a population of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

….

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-07-03-2024-033deab379a16efdf9989de8d6eaf0f8

BeaverFever · July 3, 2024

Just now, BeaverFever said:

Israel turbocharges West Bank settlement expansion with largest land grab in decades

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel has approved the largest seizure of land in the occupied West Bank in over three decades, a settlement tracking group said Wednesday, a move that is likely to worsen already soaring tensions linked to the war in Gaza.

Israel’s aggressive expansion in the West Bank reflects the settler community’s strong influence in the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the most religious and nationalist in the country’s history. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a settler himself, has turbocharged the policy of expansion, seizing new authorities over settlement development and saying he aims to solidify Israel’s hold on the territory and prevent the creation of a Palestinian state.

Authorities recently approved the appropriation of 12.7 square kilometers (nearly 5 square miles) of land in the Jordan Valley, according to a copy of the order obtained by The Associated Press. Data from Peace Now, the tracking group, indicate it was the largest single appropriation approved since the 1993 Oslo accords at the start of the peace process.

It is in an area of the West Bank where, e ven before the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war,settler violence was displacing communities of Palestinians. That violence has only surged since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack ignited the war in Gaza. Settlers have carried out more than 1,000 attacks on Palestinians since October in the West Bank, causing deaths and damaging property, according to the U.N.

The land seizure, which was approved late last month but only publicized on Wednesday, comes after the seizure of 8 square kilometers (roughly 3 square miles) of land in the West Bank in March and 2.6 square kilometers (1 square mile) in February.

That makes 2024 by far the peak year for Israeli land seizure in the West Bank, Peace Now said.

By declaring them state lands, the government opens them up to being leased to Israelis and prohibits private Palestinian ownership.

…

Most of the international community considers settlements illegal or illegitimate.

Israel captured the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Mideast war, territories the Palestinians want for a future state. Israel’s current government considers the West Bank to be the historical and religious heartland of the Jewish people and opposes Palestinian statehood.

Israel has built well over 100 settlements across the West Bank, some of which resemble fully developed suburbs or small towns. They are home to over 500,000 Jewish settlers who have Israeli citizenship.

The 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank live under seemingly open-ended Israeli military rule. The Palestinian Authority administers enclaves scattered across the territory, but is barred from operating in 60% of the West Bank, which includes the settlements as well as areas with a population of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

….

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-07-03-2024-033deab379a16efdf9989de8d6eaf0f8

I tried to only post the most salient portions of the article but really there are too many to copy. People really need to read the entire article

Anyone claiming that the Israeli government is just a bunch of decent honourable reasonable guys who just want to live in peace and only take actions against Palestinians defensively is deluding themselves.

Reasonable intelligent people should be able to acknowledge that their state is a brutally oppressive apartheid regime without being falsely and dishonestly accused of endorsing Palestinian terrorism. BOTH san and should be condemned.

Dougie93 · July 3, 2024

Am Yisrael Chai

Dougie93 · July 3, 2024

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Reasonable intelligent people should be able to acknowledge that their state is a brutally oppressive apartheid regime without being falsely and dishonestly accused of endorsing Palestinian terrorism. BOTH san and should be condemned.

you lunatic leftists in your bizarre alliance with the ultra right wing Islamists vastly overestimate your base of support

reap what you sow therein

BeaverFever · July 3, 2024

20 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

you lunatic leftists in your bizarre alliance with the ultra right wing Islamists vastly overestimate your base of support

reap what you sow therein

So you just wanted to confirm that you have nothing intelligent to say on the topic as the truth is indefensible.

Gotcha.

Edited July 3, 2024 by BeaverFever

Dougie93 · July 3, 2024

9 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

So you just wanted to confirm that you have nothing intelligent to say on the topic as the truth is indefensible.

Gotcha.

you deluded leftists are the frog giving the ultra right wing reactionary Islamists a ride on your back

see how that works out for you

I wash my hands of it

BeaverFever · July 3, 2024

50 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

you deluded leftists are the frog giving the ultra right wing reactionary Islamists a ride on your back

see how that works out for you

I wash my hands of it

No need to confirm your inability to provide an intelligent response and that Israel’s actions are indefensible a second time.

carepov · July 3, 2024

I used to agree with you (i.e. condemn both sides), now, after researching the topic since 10/7 I am no longer anti-settlement for the following reasons:

1. Arab violence against Israel has nothing to do with settlements. This violence pre-dates 1967 and even 1948. Why was there no Palestinian State established between 1948-1967? How do you explain the founding of the PLO in 1964? The Hamas charter makes no reference to settlements, they want to eliminate all Jews from the river to the sea. Multiple offers of land for peace have been refused by Palestinian leaders. Israel withdrew all settlements from Gaza in 2005, the result was MORE violence.

2. There are 2 million Arab-Israelis (20%) living peacefully in Israel enjoying full rights and high living standards. Why can there not be any Jews living in Arab lands, even lands where Jews are "indigenous", such as Hebron?

NAME REMOVED · July 3, 2024

I cannot put into words how proud I am of the Israelis. Those hoodlums not only cheered the 9/11 attacks on America, but stood on overpasses in Toronto, dancing as the blood of innocent women and children were fresh. I hope Israel annexes all of the Palestinian territory.

NAME REMOVED · July 3, 2024

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Anyone claiming that the Israeli government is just a bunch of decent honourable reasonable guys who just want to live in peace and only take actions against Palestinians defensively is deluding themselves.

I don't think anyone considers the Israeli Government "Honorable." Pragmatic would be a better word to describe them.

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Reasonable intelligent people should be able to acknowledge that their state is a brutally oppressive apartheid regime without being falsely and dishonestly accused of endorsing Palestinian terrorism. BOTH san and should be condemned.

Reasonable, intelligent people also are completely opposed to Palestinians coming into their own respective countries. Let the Arab World deal with them.

BeaverFever · July 4, 2024

1 hour ago, carepov said:

1. Arab violence against Israel has nothing to do with settlements. This violence pre-dates 1967 and even 1948. Why was there no Palestinian State established between 1948-1967? How do you explain the founding of the PLO in 1964? The Hamas charter makes no reference to settlements, they want to eliminate all Jews from the river to the sea. Multiple offers of land for peace have been refused by Palestinian leaders. Israel withdrew all settlements from Gaza in 2005, the result was MORE violence.

That is a very one-sided version of history. It is both sides l, not one/ sided. For example Israeli violence against Palestinians also predates the state of Israel. In fact before they had the luxury of a nation state with a military there were multiple Zionist terrorist groups who massacred Arab villagers and British troops. Their leaders ultimately became some of Israel’s founding fathers. And the settler militia violence in the West Bank borders on terrorism. The reason that no Palestinian state was formed in1948-1967 is because the British renegged on their promise to create one.

The PLO was founded in 1964 because Arab-Jew violence including forced displacements and unauthorized settlements first occurred decades before that, with both sides committing atrocities

Also the “multiple offers of land for peace” is also misleading as as they were often bad faith offers, or offers for a small fraction of their land in return for permanently forfeiting their rights to any further claims. Imagine if someone took a million dollars from you and made you an offer to return only $100 if you forfeit your claim to the rest. And none of those offers were for a Palestinian state, they were mostly offers for continued Israeli occupation and illegal settlement in exchange for slightly more land than they currently have…and sometimes slightly less land. I will remind you that the last Israeli PM to make a genuine peace offer to Palestine was assassinated by Israeli hardliners who have basically remained in power ever since. I will also remind you that the Palestinian Authority has officially recognized Israel for decades now its right to exist but Israel has never reciprocated

The fact of the matter is both sides have followed the tit-for-tat retaliation with the evil done by one side begetting the evil of the other to the point where today both have become unreasonable extremists who for generations have committed unspeakable acts and hav also suffered unspeakable acts.

As westerners raised to respect state authority over vigilantism, we are naturally inclined to see bombing a family with a F-16 as inherently more legitimate than bombing the same family with a suicide vest and that is not always so in the case of Israel. Similarly we consider acts of terrorism to be more heinous than acts of brutal state oppression and occupation. People with state militaries can use their armed forces for violence but those without a state have to resort to terrorism as the proto-Israelis themselves did in the before before the Israeli state was formed

Furthermore the withdrawal from Gaza - by a hardliner Israeli PM and war criminal who deliberately triggered the second intifada to derail earlier peace talks - was not a peace gesture. It was an attempt to and contain the Palestinian Authority to the West Bank and turn Gaza into an open air prison. The Israelis calculated that Hamas could be managed and was a better option to have in Gaza than having the Palestinian Authority in 2 places and it was easier to secure Gaza from the outside than from the inside.

3 hours ago, carepov said:

There are 2 million Arab-Israelis (20%) living peacefully in Israel enjoying full rights and high living standards.

As point of fact they do not enjoy full rights nor high living standards, they are second class citizens more akin to Blacks in the Jim Crow South, many were forcefully displaced during the wars and had their land confiscated with no right to return, some of these “citizens” live in unsanctioned shanty towns that the Israeli government sometimes bulldozes as they also routinely refuse building permits for Arab Israeli. And of course the displaced Arabs who were not “lucky” enough to obtain citizenship have no right to return and have been living in refugee camps for generations now

3 hours ago, carepov said:

Why can there not be any Jews living in Arab lands, even lands where Jews are "indigenous", such as Hebron?

Well those Israeli Arabs are grandfathered and segregated , no Arabs can immigrate to Israel and none of Palestinians who were run off their land during the various conflicts are allowed to return. Hebron is surrounded by illegal Jewish settlements whose armed militias attack and harass Palestinians daily with the overwatch of the IDF. Also Hebron appears to have a Jewish community of 1100 people and an ISF garrison, as established under the 1997 Hebron Accords

2 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

don't think anyone considers the Israeli Government "Honorable." Pragmatic would be a better word to describe them.

They have their own “river to the sea” agenda, and many on the for right who have ruled Israel for the past 20 years or so always have.

2 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Reasonable, intelligent people also are completely opposed to Palestinians coming into their own respective countries. Let the Arab World deal with them.

The Palestinians don’t want to “come into” Israel. In fact it was Israel that came into them. Israel has no legal claim to the Occupied Territories. Those Occupied territories are the Arab world so a 2-state solution is “letting the Arab world desl eith them”

2 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

I cannot put into words how proud I am of the Israelis. Those hoodlums not only cheered the 9/11 attacks on America, but stood on overpasses in Toronto, dancing as the blood of innocent women and children were fresh. I hope Israel annexes all of the Palestinian territory.

But of course we aspire to live in a world of laws not emotions and there is no legal or moral justification for Israel to annex the Occupied Territories or impose collective punishment an entire ethnicity or nationality simply because you think the majority of them are A-holes. I submit that if you had to grow up under the conditions that they have been forced to endure, you would not be so different.

The other fallacy in your argument is the general suggestion that one side’s cruelty and brutality can be justified by the other side’s cruelty brutality. Of course Hamas says the same thing as Palestinians have also suffered at the hands of Israelis for generations and so round and round it goes with cruelty and brutality perpetuated on both sides. Neither side will see peace until that mentality is firmly rejected by all.

carepov · July 4, 2024

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

That is a very one-sided version of history. It is both sides l, not one/ sided. For example Israeli violence against Palestinians also predates the state of Israel. In fact before they had the luxury of a nation state with a military there were multiple Zionist terrorist groups who massacred Arab villagers and British troops. Their leaders ultimately became some of Israel’s founding fathers. And the settler militia violence in the West Bank borders on terrorism. The reason that no Palestinian state was formed in1948-1967 is because the British renegged on their promise to create one.

History does not have “sides”. Your narration is false:

The British handed off to the UN, the UN parting plan of 1947, that would have created 2 states was accepted by the Jews and rejected by Arabs:

“The Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation, accepted the plan, and nearly all the Jews in Palestine rejoiced at the news.

The partition plan was rejected by the Palestinian Arab leadership and by most of the Arab population.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#:~:text=In%20September%201947%2C%20the%20British,of%20the%20Homeland%20is%20illegal.

The British were gone. After 1948, Gaza was then fully under the control of Egypt and the West Bank was ruled by Jordan. There we no Jews in these lands.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The PLO was founded in 1964 because Arab-Jew violence including forced displacements and unauthorized settlements first occurred decades before that, with both sides committing atrocities

No, the PLO was formed to eliminate the state of Israel.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Also the “multiple offers of land for peace” is also misleading as as they were often bad faith offers, or offers for a small fraction of their land in return for permanently forfeiting their rights to any further claims. Imagine if someone took a million dollars from you and made you an offer to return only $100 if you forfeit your claim to the rest. And none of those offers were for a Palestinian state, they were mostly offers for continued Israeli occupation and illegal settlement in exchange for slightly more land than they currently have…and sometimes slightly less land. I will remind you that the last Israeli PM to make a genuine peace offer to Palestine was assassinated by Israeli hardliners who have basically remained in power ever since. I will also remind you that the Palestinian Authority has officially recognized Israel for decades now its right to exist but Israel has never reciprocated

Also false.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The fact of the matter is both sides have followed the tit-for-tat retaliation with the evil done by one side begetting the evil of the other to the point where today both have become unreasonable extremists who for generations have committed unspeakable acts and hav also suffered unspeakable acts.

Proposing that there is some kind of equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians is also false. Let’s compare:

Israel, warts and all, are defending their people:
-Their constitution is one of peace
-As a country, they have the power to kill/displace all Palestinians, yet they restrain
-Practically every young Israeli goes through military service and walks around with a machine gun, yet they restrain
-Build bomb shelters and the Iron Dome to defend their civilians
-In Israel, there are 2 million Arab-Israelis with full citizenship and rights living in peace and security
-Israel is among the best countries in the world for women's rights
-Ditto for other minority rights
-Ditto for free speech, religion and other civil rights

Hamas, in contrast:
-Openly calls for the destruction of Israel in their constitution
-Rapes women and celebrates this and violence
-Kidnaps babies and seniors
-Promises to repeat the attacks of 10/7
-Rewards people and their families for killing Jews
-Fires rockets into Israel
-Uses civilians as human shields
-Kills homosexuals
-Women's rights?
-Minority rights?
-Free speech and democracy?

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

As westerners raised to respect state authority over vigilantism, we are naturally inclined to see bombing a family with a F-16 as inherently more legitimate than bombing the same family with a suicide vest and that is not always so in the case of Israel. Similarly we consider acts of terrorism to be more heinous than acts of brutal state oppression and occupation. People with state militaries can use their armed forces for violence but those without a state have to resort to terrorism as the proto-Israelis themselves did in the before before the Israeli state was formed

Israel is defending itself from violence. If even the Palestinian violence stops – there will be no more Israeli violence. How much more proof do you need:
-Peace with Arab-Israelis
-Peace or building towards peace with the majority of all neighboring countries

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Furthermore the withdrawal from Gaza - by a hardliner Israeli PM and war criminal who deliberately triggered the second intifada to derail earlier peace talks - was not a peace gesture. It was an attempt to and contain the Palestinian Authority to the West Bank and turn Gaza into an open air prison. The Israelis calculated that Hamas could be managed and was a better option to have in Gaza than having the Palestinian Authority in 2 places and it was easier to secure Gaza from the outside than from the inside.

You are making my point: a guy goes for a walk and this triggers a wave suicide bombers.

Gaza was not an “open air prison”:

Before 10/7/2023 the standard of living in Gaza is comparable to all other Arab countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index_by_region

Don’t forget to tell the “other side” of your so-called balanced historical narrative, the election of Hamas then the civil war in Gaza followed by rocket attacks.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

As point of fact they do not enjoy full rights nor high living standards, they are second class citizens more akin to Blacks in the Jim Crow South, many were forcefully displaced during the wars and had their land confiscated with no right to return, some of these “citizens” live in unsanctioned shanty towns that the Israeli government sometimes bulldozes as they also routinely refuse building permits for Arab Israeli. And of course the displaced Arabs who were not “lucky” enough to obtain citizenship have no right to return and have been living in refugee camps for generations now

False: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel is nothing like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws#:~:text=The%20Jim%20Crow%20laws%20were,term%20for%20an%20African%20American.

I can think of nowhere else in the world where any group of refugees have this so called “right of return” and live in “refugee camps” for 76 years. From the millions of displaced Germans, Hindus, and others in the 20^th century to the millions fleeing Syria and Ukraine in our century.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Well those Israeli Arabs are grandfathered and segregated , no Arabs can immigrate to Israel and none of Palestinians who were run off their land during the various conflicts are allowed to return. Hebron is surrounded by illegal Jewish settlements whose armed militias attack and harass Palestinians daily with the overwatch of the IDF. Also Hebron appears to have a Jewish community of 1100 people and an ISF garrison, as established under the 1997 Hebron Accords

Segregated? Israeli-Arabs are full members of Israeli society. Did you know that Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel?

Free movement of Palestinians is restricted due to violence. Want proof: look at the number of suicide bombings before and after the construction of the wall.

So, what would happen to the Jewish community in Hebron without state protection? 20 % of Israel is non-Jewish, so wouldn’t it be reasonable if 20% of a state of Palestine be non-Arab?

BeaverFever · July 5, 2024

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

History does not have “sides”. Your narration is false:

YOUR version of history that you are reciting here is one-sided because you are selectively choosing to omit inconvenient facts.

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

The British handed off to the UN, the UN parting plan of 1947, that would have created 2 states was accepted by the Jews and rejected by Arabs:

“The Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation, accepted the plan, and nearly all the Jews in Palestine rejoiced at the news.

The partition plan was rejected by the Palestinian Arab leadership and by most of the Arab population.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#:~:text=In%20September%201947%2C%20the%20British,of%20the%20Homeland%20is%20illegal.

The British were gone. After 1948, Gaza was then fully under the control of Egypt and the West Bank was ruled by Jordan. There we no Jews in these lands.

1) That was long after Britain reneged on its promise for an Arab state in Palestine with the 1917 Balfour declaration despite the fact that Arabs were 94% of the population at that time, the Jewish Insurgency against the British mandate which started in 1944 and lasted until 1948, a Jewish terrorist group bombing the British mandate HQ killing 91 people, and decades of violence between Arabs and Isrealis with atrocities committed by both sides since before 1900. Britain simply wanted to extricate itself by handing to the UN.

Regarding the 1917 Balfour declaration, which was public, its publication banned by the British in Palestine. In 1919 correspondence between outgoing British Foreign Secretary Balfour and his successor:

1919, Balfour to Curzon‘The weak point of our position is of course that in the case of Palestine we deliberately and rightly decline to accept the principle of self-determination.’ PRO. FO 371/4179.

1919 Curzon, to Balfour warns: [Chair of British Zionist movement] Weizmann contemplates a Jewish state, a Jewish nation, a subordinate population of Arabs, [and that Weizmann was]…trying to effect this behind the screen and under the shelter of British trusteeship.Ingramsp58

1919 Balfour to Curzon Aug 11th ‘in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country, though the American Commission has been going through the form of asking what they are.….The Four Great Powers are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land…….What I have never been able to understand how it can be harmonised with the declaration [Anglo-French of 1918]… or the instructions to the Commission of Enquiry. ………. In short, so far as Palestine is concerned, the Powers have made no statement of fact which is not admittedly wrong, and no declaration of policy which, at least in the letter, they have not always intended to violate. Ingrams p73 See Nutting

Then in 1922, in the British House of Parliament:

1922 LORD ISLINGTON moving the motion on the Palestine Mandate in the House of Lords which condemned the Mandate by 60 – 29 votes moved‘that the Mandate for Palestine in its present form is inacceptable to this House, because it directly violates the pledges made by His Majesty’s Government to the people of Palestine in the Declaration of October, 1915, and again in the Declaration of November, 1918, and is, as at present framed, opposed to the sentiments and wishes of the great majority of the people of Palestine; that, therefore, its acceptance by the Council of the League of Nations should be postponed until such modifications have therein been effected as will comply with pledges given by His Majesty’s Government……,

1922 Meeting at Balfour’s home in London. Foreign Secretary Balfour and Prime Minister Lloyd George confirm verbally to Weizmann that ‘by the Declaration they always meant an eventual Jewish state’. Colonial Secretary, Churchill [responsible for Palestine] also present at the meeting when Lloyd George tells Churchill that ‘we’ must not allow such a thing as representative government to happen in Palestine. Sahar Huneidi, A Broken Trust p 59

Even future Israeli founding father David Ben Gurion said in 1947

Britain was responsible for the tragedy of Palestine, the cause of much war, suffering and the displacement of peoples as well as posing a continuing threat to world peace. The Balfour Declaration in both its parts [promising a Jewish homeland and to protect the interests of the Arab residents of Palestine] was not capable of implementation and the end of the Mandate was humiliating and irresponsible. Anthony Parsons (former UK Ambassador to Iran), “The Middle East”, in Peter Byrd (Ed.), British foreign policy under Thatcher, 1988

And so on

https://balfourproject.org/a-few-quotes/

Regarding Arab objections to Jewish settlers from Europe displacing Arabs, Churchill said in 1937

I do not admit that the dog in the manger has the final right to the manger, though he may have lain there for a very long time I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been to those people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race or at any rate a more worldly-wise race, to put it that way, has come in and taken their place. I do not admit it. I do not think the Red Indians had any right to say, 'American continent belongs to us and we are not going to have any of these European settlers coming in here'. They had not the right, nor had they the power."^[72]

As for Arabs rejecting the UN model, in the 30 years since Balfour, Arabs were reduced from 94% to 67% of the population with thousands displaced due to massive Jewish immigration but were offered only 48% of the territory in the UN plan which would have called for many more Arabs to be displaced from their homes located in the new Israeli territory

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

The British were gone. After 1948, Gaza was then fully under the control of Egypt and the West Bank was ruled by Jordan. There we no Jews in these lands.

So?

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

No, the PLO was formed to eliminate the state of Israel.

After decades of violence and displacement. Israel wants to eliminate the possibility of a state of Palestine is that any different, The Jewish terrorist groups Irgun Lehi and many in the current government who revere them seek to even eliminate the Palestinian occupied territories. They have their own “river to the sea” agenda and unlike PLO which eventually became the Palestinian Authority and officially recognized the state of Israel to exist 30 years ago, Israel still has not done the same, continues to aggressively and illegally colonize Palestinian territory and materially support extremist settler militias in the OT which are effectively terrorist organizations.

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

You are making my point: a guy goes for a walk and this triggers a wave suicide bombers.

Gaza was not an “open air prison”:

What a dishonest description. He was not “a guy going for a walk”. He was an infamous convicted war criminal that had abetted a bloody massacre of women and children in a refugee camp, and in planned stunt he disrupted prayer at the Palestinians’ holiest site with an entourage of heavily armed body guards, with the deliberate intention of triggering unrest in order to destabilize peace talks.

Gaza is often described as an open air prison as Isreal controls everything and everyone moving in and out on all sides including utilities, basic necessities, fresh water and even the airwaves. As in the west bank, sometimes these have been shut off arbitrarily for no apparent reason, seemingly sometimes because some low-ranking Israeli official simply felt like f-cking with the Palestinians that day.

Israel has referred to their policy regarding indefinite occupation of Palestinians as “mowing the lawn” (or mowing the grass depending upon the translation). Look it up. Basically their preferred policy is to continue occupation until such time as the OT can be fully annexed into Israel proper, endure the inevitable terrorist attacks that causes, and then occasionally “mow the lawn” with overwhelming retaliatory strikes as needed to keep things manageable. Israel has calculated that Hamas could be managed and that a “divide and conquer” approach was preferable to having Palestinians in both OTs united under the more moderate and secular Palestinian Authority. At best, October 7 shows this policy was a gross miscalculation or at least no longer sustainable in the new world order with a newly emboldened Russia-China-Iran axis moving against the West.

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

Before 10/7/2023 the standard of living in Gaza is comparable to all other Arab countries

Maybe my eyes are failing me but I don’t see Gaza listed at your link

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

Don’t forget to tell the “other side” of your so-called balanced historical narrative, the election of Hamas then the civil war in Gaza followed by rocket attacks.

I don’t forget it, it’s just not relevant to Israels continued colonization of land and support of settler violence. Has was elected in ONE election 20 years ago because they presented themselves as a newly moderate “party of change” in the new Gaza and then afterwards reverted back to their true form and canceled all elections. They were elected by the parents and grandparents of the children being killed today. There is no basis in any law or concept of human rights that sanctions the killing of civilians or annexation of territory as collective punishment on an entire society for the acts of the government they elected, much less the children grandchildren of those civilians

I acknowledge the many many many countless atrocities committed by Palestinian terrorists and even that their atrocities are arguably offensive than the cruelty and injustice that Israel has inflicted on Palestinians. But it’s a moot point with regard to the fact that cruelty abounds on both sides, both sides are hardened extremists and no acts of cruelty can justify illegal annexation or colonization just as it doesn’t justify terrorism. Before Israelis had their own country and military they also resorted to terrorism as their primary means of force,, now they have more power and options to use other means of violence that are more palatable to western sensibilities like arbitrarily shutting off drinking water, utilities, military action and using proxy forces like the settler militias for the less palatable violence.

Everywhere in the world, terrorism is a symptom of the current conditions, not the cause. Always has been.

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

False: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel is nothing like:

I guess you didn’t read the section of your link titled “Legal and Political Status”:

Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, affecting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship.^[285] The joint document The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel, asserts: "Defining the Israeli State as a Jewish State and exploiting democracy in the service of its Jewishness excludes us, and creates tension between us and the nature and essence of the State."

And then there’s a whole separate wiki page on “Racism in Israel”

Racism against Arab citizens by Israeli Jews

Vandalized grave. The graffiti says "death to Arabs" (מוות לערבים, mavet laArabim).

Clear him out’: Palestinian tenants struggle to rent in west Jerusalem

In this divided city, an Arabic name can severely limit the ability to find a home – and anti-discrimination laws don’t cover private housing

https://amp.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/07/clear-him-out-palestinian-tenants-struggle-to-rent-in-west-jerusalem

Lesser citizens

Palestinian citizens of Israel, who comprise about 19% of the population, face many forms of institutionalized discrimination. In 2018, discrimination against Palestinians was crystallized in a constitutional law which, for the first time, enshrined Israel exclusively as the “nation state of the Jewish people”. The law also promotes the building of Jewish settlements and downgrades Arabic’s status as an official language.

The report documents how Palestinians are effectively blocked from leasing on 80% of Israel’s state land, as a result of racist land seizures and a web of discriminatory laws on land allocation, planning and zoning.

The situation in the Negev/Naqab region of southern Israel is a prime example of how Israel’s planning and building policies intentionally exclude Palestinians. Since 1948 Israeli authorities have adopted various policies to “Judaize” the Negev/Naqab, including designating large areas as nature reserves or military firing zones, and setting targets for increasing the Jewish population. This has had devastating consequences for the tens of thousands of Palestinian Bedouins who live in the region.

Thirty-five Bedouin villages, home to about 68,000 people, are currently “unrecognized” by Israel, which means they are cut off from the national electricity and water supply and targeted for repeated demolitions. As the villages have no official status, their residents also face restrictions on political participation and are excluded from the healthcare and education systems. These conditions have coerced many into leaving their homes and villages, in what amounts to forcible transfer.

Decades of deliberately unequal treatment of Palestinian citizens of Israel have left them consistently economically disadvantaged in comparison to Jewish Israelis. This is exacerbated by blatantly discriminatory allocation of state resources: a recent example is the government’s Covid-19 recovery package, of which just 1.7% was given to Palestinian local authorities.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/

Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is ‘not a state of all its citizens’

PM has been accused of demonising Israeli Arabs in lead-up to April election

Benjamin Netanyahu has said Israel is “not a state of all its citizens”, in a reference to the country’s Arab population.

In comments on Instagram, the prime minister went on to say all citizens, including Arabs, had equal rights, but he referred to a deeply controversial law passed last year declaring Israelthe nation state of the Jewish people.

“Israel is not a state of all its citizens,” he wrote in response to criticism from an Israeli actor, Rotem Sela. “According to the basic nationality law we passed, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people – and only it.…

Netanyahu has been accused of demonising Israeli Arabs, who make up about 17% of the population, in an attempt to boost rightwing turnout in elections due on 9 April.

He has continually warned that his opponents will receive the support of Arab parties and that they will make significant concessions to the Palestinians.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/10/benjamin-netanyahu-says-israel-is-not-a-state-of-all-its-citizens

Israeli Arabs Have No Choice but to Build Illegally'

Study released by the Dirasat - Arab Center for Law and Policy highlights obstacles faced by Israeli Arabs wishing to build homes; about a quarter of Arab communities have neither a local nor privatized master plan.

Israel's Arabs are forced to build illegal housing due to the government's refusal to recognize many of their communities as official towns or to grant them permits for legal construction

https://www.haaretz.com/2010-07-29/ty-article/israeli-arabs-have-no-choice-but-to-build-illegally/0000017f-e0eb-d804-ad7f-f1fbd6740000

Palestinian permits blocked, thousands of Israeli housing units approved

Only 32 construction plans and permits were approved for Palestinians in Area C in 2019-2020, while over 18,000 plans and permits were approved for Israelis during the same period, according to data collected by left-wing NGO Peace Now and published on Sunday.

Between 2009 and 2018, only 98 construction permits for Palestinians were issued out of the 4,422 requests for permits that were filed.

https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/palestinian-permits-blocked-thousands-of-israeli-housing-units-approved-657445

We will not go away’: Israeli demolitions leave Bedouin homeless

Bedouin erect tents only for Israeli forces to return and dismantle them in Negev village earmarked for clearance

In early May, Israeli authorities demolished 350 structures in the community, 47 of them homes, leaving hundreds of children homeless. In the shadow of the conflict in Gaza, the government described this action as “an important move of sovereignty and governance”.

The Bedouin erect makeshift tents to provide shelter for their families. However, every three days Israeli forces arrive with a sizeable police presence, dismantling the temporary homes, uprooting trees that had offered shade and issuing threats of arrest.

The far-right national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, has openly endorsed and pushed for the demolition of Palestinian homes, both within Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territory. More than a year ago he shared a video on social media celebrating the demolition of Palestinian Bedouin homes in the Negev.

Last month he said the Wadi al-Khalil homes were “illegal constructions” and issued a warning to anyone who “violates the law in the Negev”. He said the destruction was “an important step” indicating that the government’s authority would not be challenged.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/06/israeli-demolitions-bedouins-homeless-negev

Israel razes entire Bedouin village to expand a highway

https://www.972mag.com/israel-razes-bedouin-village-wadi-al-khalil/

And so on

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

Also false.

Nope, true

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

Proposing that there is some kind of equivalency between Israel and the Palestinians is also false. Let’s compare:

Israel, warts and all, are defending their people:
-Their constitution is one of peace
-As a country, they have the power to kill/displace all Palestinians, yet they restrain
-Practically every young Israeli goes through military service and walks around with a machine gun, yet they restrain
-Build bomb shelters and the Iron Dome to defend their civilians
-In Israel, there are 2 million Arab-Israelis with full citizenship and rights living in peace and security
-Israel is among the best countries in the world for women's rights
-Ditto for other minority rights
-Ditto for free speech, religion and other civil rights

Hamas, in contrast:
-Openly calls for the destruction of Israel in their constitution
-Rapes women and celebrates this and violence
-Kidnaps babies and seniors
-Promises to repeat the attacks of 10/7
-Rewards people and their families for killing Jews
-Fires rockets into Israel
-Uses civilians as human shields
-Kills homosexuals
-Women's rights?
-Minority rights?
-Free speech and democracy?

None of that matters it isn’t about who you think is nicer or has fewer warts. Personally if I had to choose between being stranded is Israel or stranded in the OT I would of course choose Israel. But there is nothing that justifies annexation occupation oppression or colonization just as there is nothing that justifies terrorism

And this narrative that the Israeli government is just a bunch of nice guys who only want peace and to be left alone nothing more is false The idea that Palestinian terrorism could end while Israeli illegal occupation and colonization or outright annexation can continue is unrealistic in the extreme

And Israel CONTINUES to take illegal actions as noted in the OP that are not at all defensive or in the spirit of peace. They are acts of overt hostile and violent aggression that have nothing to do with October 7 or defending against terrorism, that in fact make peace less likely and further the cycle of violence And the Israeli government knows this

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

I can think of nowhere else in the world where any group of refugees have this so called “right of return” and live in “refugee camps” for 76 years. From the millions of displaced Germans, Hindus, and others in the 20^th century to the millions fleeing Syria and Ukraine in our century.

Then you object to the existence of the state of Israel entirely because the Right of Return for Jewish people is the entire purpose for founding the state of Israel, including especially the descendants of ancestors who fled the land thousands of years ago or whose ancestors converted to Judaism generations ago and have never even lived in the area

To accept the right of return for Jewish people from centuries or millennia ago but not that of Palestinians who were displaced in the 20th centuries is extremely hypocritical

Besides most refugees have the right to return to their home countries that is the norm. There are conventions and prohibitions against creating stateless people. Israel is unique in that many refugees were not recognized enfranchised by Israel before they were forced to flee and Israel won’t let them return to their homes whether in Israel proper or the OT

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

Segregated? Israeli-Arabs are full members of Israeli society. Did you know that Arabic is one of the official languages of Israel?

See earlier comments challenging this claim

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

Free movement of Palestinians is restricted due to violence. Want proof: look at the number of suicide bombings before and after the construction of the wall.

Israel abuses that claim and uses it to justify continued land grabs and oppression like shutting off water, diverting essential drinking water from Palestinian villages for the swimming pools and lawns of illegal settlements to electricity The wall is only one factor amd Haaretz reported, "[t]he security fence is no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it."^[7

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

So, what would happen to the Jewish community in Hebron without state protection?

Nobody is saying they shouldn’t have protection

On 7/4/2024 at 9:24 AM, carepov said:

20 % of Israel is non-Jewish, so wouldn’t it be reasonable if 20% of a state of Palestine be non-Arab?

I turn the question back on you since Arab Israelis only have 3% to 4% of land in Israel proper. Palestinians make up nearly 50% of the entire population in Israel and the OT and their number is growing faster. Should they not have at least 50% of the total land? Remember they were more than of the are’s population before massive Jewish immigration started in the early 20th century

carepov · July 5, 2024

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

YOUR version of history that you are reciting here is one-sided because you are selectively choosing to omit inconvenient facts.

I have not narrated my version of history. My original claim was that that Israeli settlements do not cause Palestinian violence and supported this claim by narrating acts of Palestinian violence that pre-dated settlements and of course post-dated the withdrawal of settlements.

I never said that Jews/Israel are the pure white good guys, they have made a lot of f-ups, like every country.

Regarding your comments on the Balfour Declaration and other history from the times (population/land percentages), yes it is important to know but not really applicable to todays situation. Remember:

-In 1914 the population of Palestine (now Isreael+Gaza+Westbank) was 689,000, now it is 14,000,000

-You quote % land of Palestine, why not % land of all British Territory in the ME, how much is Arab and how much Jewish?

-Who were the "indigenous people" or the "rightful owners" of the land at any point in history? There were people moving into this area from all around the world including Arabs from surrounding lands

-The times were different. The injustices committed in Palestine were regrettable but pale to the injustices of the entire 20th century.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Maybe my eyes are failing me but I don’t see Gaza listed at your link

Gaza is part of Palestine. 0.715 HDI on par with Jordan and Lebanon.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

I don’t forget it, it’s just not relevant to Israels continued colonization of land and support of settler violence. Has was elected in ONE election 20 years ago because they presented themselves as a newly moderate “party of change” in the new Gaza and then afterwards reverted back to their true form and canceled all elections. They were elected by the parents and grandparents of the children being killed today. There is no basis in any law or concept of human rights that sanctions the killing of civilians or annexation of territory as collective punishment on an entire society for the acts of the government they elected, much less the children grandchildren of those civilians

I acknowledge the many many many countless atrocities committed by Palestinian terrorists and even that their atrocities are arguably offensive than the cruelty and injustice that Israel has inflicted on Palestinians. But it’s a moot point with regard to the fact that cruelty abounds on both sides, both sides are hardened extremists and no acts of cruelty can justify illegal annexation or colonization just as it doesn’t justify terrorism. Before Israelis had their own country and military they also resorted to terrorism as their primary means of force,, now they have more power and options to use other means of violence that are more palatable to western sensibilities like arbitrarily shutting off drinking water, utilities, military action and using proxy forces like the settler militias for the less palatable violence.

Everywhere in the world, terrorism is a symptom of the current conditions, not the cause. Always has been.

You are wrong about terrorism. Why not try listening to what the terrorists actually say, read the Hamas Charter (supported by a majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, but not supported by Palestinian-Israelis), read Osama Bin Laden's manifesto. What current conditions cause: Al-Shabaab, ISIS, Boko Haram?

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights

Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world.

With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world. Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East.

I suspect that there are similar anecdotes of racism on Wiki pages from evry country of the world.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

None of that matters it isn’t about who you think is nicer or has fewer warts. Personally if I had to choose between being stranded is Israel or stranded in the OT I would of course choose Israel. But there is nothing that justifies annexation occupation oppression or colonization just as there is nothing that justifies terrorism

And this narrative that the Israeli government is just a bunch of nice guys who only want peace and to be left alone nothing more is false The idea that Palestinian terrorism could end while Israeli illegal occupation and colonization or outright annexation can continue is unrealistic in the extreme

And Israel CONTINUES to take illegal actions as noted in the OP that are not at all defensive or in the spirit of peace. They are acts of overt hostile and violent aggression that have nothing to do with October 7 or defending against terrorism, that in fact make peace less likely and further the cycle of violence And the Israeli government knows this

If Palestinians stopped violence/terrorism there would be peace. If the UN partition Plan would have been accepted, there may have been peace. If Olso would have been accepted there may have been peace.

Perhaps Israel's actions are hostile, but they are not to blame. Hamas and its supporters are against the existence of Israel, independent of what actions they take.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Then you object to the existence of the state of Israel entirely because the Right of Return for Jewish people is the entire purpose for founding the state of Israel, including especially the descendants of ancestors who fled the land thousands of years ago or whose ancestors converted to Judaism generations ago and have never even lived in the area

To accept the right of return for Jewish people from centuries or millennia ago but not that of Palestinians who were displaced in the 20th centuries is extremely hypocritical

Besides most refugees have the right to return to their home countries that is the norm. There are conventions and prohibitions against creating stateless people. Israel is unique in that many refugees were not recognized enfranchised by Israel before they were forced to flee and Israel won’t let them return to their homes whether in Israel proper or the OT

You make some good points, and yes, I see your point about the hypocrisy of the right of return, and have more questions than answers. The Jewish people are the closest thing to living indigenous people of the land. Was their right to return de-colonizing?

There was probably some portion of the 750,000 Arabs displaced in 1948 that should have had the right to return. Some may say no because it was the Arabs that started the war. How may Arabs were 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation? Does it matter? No one seriously thinks now that the 5,000,000 descendants all have the right to return.

Until the war of 1948 there were no Arabs displaced by Jews. Jews immigrated and purchased land legally remember the population was a fraction of what it is today, there was plenty of land to share.

There is no way to correct for all of history's injustice. There are now 14,000,000 people on this land and all deserve to live in peace. The first step is to stop the violence and the only people that can do that are the leaders of the Westbank and Gaza.

carepov · July 5, 2024

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

None of that matters it isn’t about who you think is nicer or has fewer warts.

Yes, it matters. There are two sides in this war and the values of each side absolutely matters.

Many people cherry-pick the worst actions taken by Israel/IDF. Fine. They lied, they messed up, they destroyed homes, some extremists call for genocide, some people are racist. True and reprehensible. Then compare these faults to the worst parts of the other side (listed above). The other side is worse.

Next, compare the best parts of Israeli society (also listed above) with it's neighbors. You can add impressive humanitarian aid, for example helping Syrian refugees and medical aid of people from "enemy" countries. Other than hummus and shawarmas, I cannot think of any positive parts of Arab society. Am I ignorant, yes. So please, anyone, enlighten me of some of the positive/altruistic aspects of neighboring Arab societies that reflect positive values.

Nationalist · July 6, 2024

@BeaverFever

Must you always be such a dweeb?

Yes the Zionists essentially stole Palestine.

Yes they do have a serious discrimination issue in Israel.

Yes the Israelis have acted...poorly...to say the least.

But when Oct. 7 happened, the act was pure butchery. Israel was left with no choice but to respond harshly. Had it been me, I'd have completely leveled Gaza on the 8th. Then I would have turned to the West Bank Palestinians and their supporting cast and sent a 2 word message.

Who's next?

Ya Israel would have suffered huge global condemnation, but IMO, the surrounding Arab nations would have stood down and this fiasco would now be history.

Edited July 6, 2024 by Nationalist

athos · July 8, 2024

On 7/4/2024 at 3:44 AM, BeaverFever said:

I tried to only post the most salient portions of the article but really there are too many to copy. People really need to read the entire article

Anyone claiming that the Israeli government is just a bunch of decent honourable reasonable guys who just want to live in peace and only take actions against Palestinians defensively is deluding themselves.

Reasonable intelligent people should be able to acknowledge that their state is a brutally oppressive apartheid regime without being falsely and dishonestly accused of endorsing Palestinian terrorism. BOTH san and should be condemned.

You are absolutely right.

As far as we know, Semites are of Arab origin or Palestinians, while over 90% of today's Jews are not Semites but (Khazars or Turkish origin). They are actually misrepresenting themselves as Semites and this can be proven very easily with a DNA test. Being Jewish is a religious, not a racial, category.
Those who condone killing of 40,000 Semitic children and women in Gaza are actually anti-Semites and not those who criticizes non Semites.
Secondly, Christians do not serve Mammon (the Golden Calf) but God.
If some want to serve Zionist Mammon, that's their choice.

"If God is dead, anything is permitted"
F.M. Dostoyevsky

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Dead_Gaza_children_002.jpg

Edited July 8, 2024 by athos

User · July 9, 2024

On 7/6/2024 at 10:19 AM, Nationalist said:

Yes the Zionists essentially stole Palestine.

Yes they do have a serious discrimination issue in Israel.

Yes the Israelis have acted...poorly...to say the least.

No, Zionists did not steal Palestine.

Do we really need to review how world wars toppled the Ottoman Empire that left British in control and the history leading up to the eventual creation of Israel? That left the Palestinians their own land...

Millions of Arabs live in Israel and function as citizens with equal rights. What is this "serious discrimination" you speak of?

Nationalist · July 9, 2024

1 hour ago, User said:

No, Zionists did not steal Palestine.

Do we really need to review how world wars toppled the Ottoman Empire that left British in control and the history leading up to the eventual creation of Israel? That left the Palestinians their own land...

Millions of Arabs live in Israel and function as citizens with equal rights. What is this "serious discrimination" you speak of?

Dude...all the Ottoman land ownership was bought up by the Rothchilds...please...

What knocks me out is I don't think any Rothchild has ever stepped foot in Israel. I could be wrong but...

IMO...the creation of Israel...in the middle of the Muslim Arab lands...was a huge faux pas.

Now they have to defend their own place in the sand, against all their neighbours. Bad situation man.

Hell Alaska would have been a better choice.

Edited July 9, 2024 by Nationalist

BeaverFever · July 9, 2024

Of course the settlements are a source of outrage and violence. Your argument only exemplifies that they are not the one and only cause of violence or the original cause of violence. When Jews first started immigrating into Palestine in large numbers in the first half of the 20th century the land wasn’t empty there were people already there and there was violence on all sides and today they are the most glaring proof that Israel has rarely if ever been genuinely interested in peace. You cam draw a straight line from the Nakba to the illegal settlements in the OT

During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, approximately half of Palestine's predominantly Arab population, or around 750,000 people,^[6]were expelled from their homes or made to flee through various violent means, at first by Zionist paramilitaries, and after the establishment of the State of Israel, by its military. Dozens of massacres targeted Palestinian Arabs and over 500 Arab-majority towns, villages, and urban neighborhoods were depopulated,^[7] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jews and given new Hebrew names. By the end of the war, 78% of the total land area of the former Mandatory Palestine was controlled by Israel.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

Regarding your comments on the Balfour Declaration and other history from the times (population/land percentages), yes it is important to know but not really applicable to todays situation. Remember:

Its relevant to point out that even as far back as 1917 the Brits were acknowledging how their double dealing had crated an impossible situation that would inevitably screw over one group in favour of the other and that they had zero expectation for things to work out well.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

In 1914 the population of Palestine (now Isreael+Gaza+Westbank) was 689,000, now it is 14,000,000

So? I don’t see how you think that helps your argument. Just help illustrate the massive amount of Jewish immigration

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

You quote % land of Palestine, why not % land of all British Territory in the ME, how much is Arab and how much Jewish?

What does that have to do with it, really?

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

Who were the "indigenous people" or the "rightful owners" of the land at any point in history? There were people moving into this area from all around the world including Arabs from surrounding lands

In the early 20th century the Arabs were the ones the Brits were referring to as the indigenous people although the Brits viewed themselves as the rightful owners by conquest according to imperialist and colonialist ideas that people today don’t accept. Not that it matters now though. Both people are there now and neither is going anywhere so they have to learn to share.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

The times were different. The injustices committed in Palestine were regrettable but pale to the injustices of the entire 20th century.

The injustices continue today. The entire endeavour from 1917 has been a constant series of injustices and cycles of violence.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

Gaza is part of Palestine. 0.715 HDI on par with Jordan and Lebanon.

I don’t think any of that suggests life in Gaza (or Jordan for that matter) is great or that Gazans should be satisfied woth their oppression. Besides Jordan isn’t hostage to another country who controls its borders and economy from the outside, I don’t know of many people who would not want sovereignty and freedom simply because it wouldn’t improve their HDI. I also don’t think you can draw conclusions about the state of Gaza based on data about Palestine as a whole.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

You are wrong about terrorism. Why not try listening to what the terrorists actually say, read the Hamas Charter (supported by a majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, but not supported by Palestinian-Israelis), read Osama Bin Laden's manifesto. What current conditions cause: Al-Shabaab, ISIS, Boko Haram?

To the contrary we have to STOP listening to what the terrorists and extremists have to say. It has nothing to do with the solution. As I said terrorism is the SYMPTOM not the DISEASE. Extremists don’t want peace, they often don’t even want victory, they want eternal conflict because that is when they are someone important and powerful. There are extremists in the Israeli cabinet too.

The moderates on both sides just have to restart a peace process as Rabin and Arafat did and commit to sticking to it no matter what, with the full knowledge that extremists are going to try to derail it through everything from terrorist attacks to inciting unrest via stunts like the one Ariel Sharon pulled.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights

Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world.

With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world. Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East.

I suspect that there are similar anecdotes of racism on Wiki pages from evry country of the world.

“Anywhere in the world?” That’s a big claim for any country, much less one that officially declares itself to exist exclusively for one specific culture

t's not random acts of racism by private individuals, its institutionalized policy and they’re still mostly segregated. Only about 8% of Arab Israelis live in mixed Arab/Jewish towns. They also have much lower socioeconomic status, living standards etc.

In both policy and practice Israel falls well below what western countries would consider acceptable.

The Many Civil and Human Rights Challenges Facing Israel’s Palestinian Citizens

https://carnegieendowment.org/posts/2024/02/the-many-civil-and-human-rights-challenges-facing-israels-palestinian-citizens?lang=en

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

If Palestinians stopped violence/terrorism there would be peace.

Peace for Israelis. Palestinians in the OT would still be stateless people on their own land, under occupation, oppression, violence from settler militias, land theft, water theft, arbitrary shut off of utilities etc.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

If the UN partition Plan would have been accepted, there may have been peace.

The UN Partition Plan was an unfair deal that exclusively benefited Israel at the expense of the incumbent Arabs. Perhaps with the benefit of hindsight we can say its the best offer the Arabs would ever get but no reasonable person in such a circumstance would accept it. Look how upset Americans get ant Mexican immigration into the southern states now imagine how Americans would react if the UN partitioned the southern states and gave Americans less than half…..and the southwestern states used to be part of Mexico until USA annexed them in fairly recent history, not thousands of years ago

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

If Olso would have been accepted there may have been peace.

Fact check: Oslo WAS accepted and as a result the PLO became the Palestinian Authority and officially recognized Israel. It was Israel who effectively rejected it when Israeli extremists then assassinated their own Prime Minister Rabin as a result and Israel has essentially been under hardliner anti-peace governments ever since. Many in Netanyahu’s government have been criticized for their comments seeming to support Rabin’s assassination among other things.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

Perhaps Israel's actions are hostile, but they are not to blame. Hamas and its supporters are against the existence of Israel, independent of what actions they take.

Both sides are to blame. Hostilities beget hostilities. Israel cultivated a Hamas controlled Gaza to neutralize Palestinian Authority. The entire future of the region doesn’t have to he dictated by the actions of the Hamas organization, that gives them all the power. The peace process and dealing with terrorist groups whose aim is to prevent any peace should be 2 different things.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

The Jewish people are the closest thing to living indigenous people of the land. Was their right to return de-colonizing?

1) I believe DNA test have shown that Palestinians and the indigenous Hebrews are closely related and equally descended from the ancient inhabitants…Ashkenazi and Sephardic jews less so as they have mixed European ancestry, in some cases heavily mixed. Therefore it’s hard to portray the Palestinians as colonizers. At any rate, the colonial powers were the British and before them the Turks, not the Palestinians.

2) From understanding of “decolonizing’l it doesn’t involve mass migration from abroad and I think is supposed to be grass roots bottom-up anti-establishment. Maybe that fits the preIsrael Zionist movements but now Zionism is pretty much the powerful establishment position of Israel, the UN and the western powers.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

There was probably some portion of the 750,000 Arabs displaced in 1948 that should have had the right to return. Some may say no because it was the Arabs that started the war. How may Arabs were 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation? Does it matter? No one seriously thinks now that the 5,000,000 descendants all have the right to return.

There was violence long before there was war, “who started the war” and even when exactly it started can very subjective. Thats why it usually doesn’t matter much “who started it”. Exactly who has rights of return and how many would need to be worked out and negotiated, certainly it should be limited to some population of immediate descendants.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

Until the war of 1948 there were no Arabs displaced by Jews.

I don’t think that’s entirely correct. The was displacement from the various uprisings and riots on both sides throughout the 1920s and 1930s and continued on right up through the 1947-48 civil war, which immediately preceded the 1948 Arab- Israeli War between Israel and the neighbouring Arab states. You are correct that initially from the late 19th century/early 20th century the displacement was initially economic with Jewish organizations, primarily in Europe, raising large amounts of money to legally purchase farmland from absentee owners who either lived abroad or in urban areas. This resulted in the displacement of many Arab tenant farmers. In addition the Jewish immigrants brought with them western education, technology, machinery, new exotic imports of all types, new modern ways of doing business etc so not only were they more efficient competitors but they transformed the economy to something new that was disruptive to the existing established Palestinian businesses, with some relocating due to resulting hardships

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

Remember the population was a fraction of what it is today, there was plenty of land to share.

Texas is a big place there must be plenty of land to share with Mexican immigrants. And they shouldn’t have any concern that the immigrants are openly working towards a goal of establishing their own sovereign country right?

It’s not “sharing” when an occupying empire is forcing you to give it away against your will. Land and water and control over them wee scarce enough for there to be concern.

On 7/5/2024 at 4:36 PM, carepov said:

Next, compare the best parts of Israeli society (also listed above) with it's neighbors. You can add impressive humanitarian aid, for example helping Syrian refugees and medical aid of people from "enemy" countries. Other than hummus and shawarmas, I cannot think of any positive parts of Arab society. Am I ignorant, yes. So please, anyone, enlighten me of some of the positive/altruistic aspects of neighboring Arab societies that reflect positive values.

While perhaps some people could enlighten you what does that have to do with the topic? The rule of law is not applied via a popularity contest and rights aren’t a prize awarded only to those with the most appealing culture…not that I find the culture of extremist violent settlers or ultra-Orthodox jews who literally have sex through a hole in a sheet all that appealing.

BeaverFever · July 9, 2024

On 7/5/2024 at 4:20 PM, carepov said:

There is no way to correct for all of history's injustice. There are now 14,000,000 people on this land and all deserve to live in peace. The first step is to stop the violence and the only people that can do that are the leaders of the Westbank and Gaza.

The first step is to actually WANT a lasting peace and be willing to make concessions for it.

Second the illegal settlements which Israel continues to build are a form of violence and the extremist settlers in those settlements who terrorize local Palestinians with the help if the IDF are also violence. Bulldozing home, stealing drinking water, et etc are all forms of violence. Killing scores of civilians in reckless “revenge” airstrikes that have more to do with keeping a 10:1 kill score than protecting anyone is arguably also violence. BOTH SIDES need to do their part and the current regimes of Hamas and Netanyahu have no interest in doing so.

BeaverFever · July 9, 2024

On 7/6/2024 at 11:19 AM, Nationalist said:

@BeaverFever

Must you always be such a dweeb?

Yes the Zionists essentially stole Palestine.

Yes they do have a serious discrimination issue in Israel.

Yes the Israelis have acted...poorly...to say the least.

But when Oct. 7 happened, the act was pure butchery. Israel was left with no choice but to respond harshly. Had it been me, I'd have completely leveled Gaza on the 8th. Then I would have turned to the West Bank Palestinians and their supporting cast and sent a 2 word message.

Who's next?

Ya Israel would have suffered huge global condemnation, but IMO, the surrounding Arab nations would have stood down and this fiasco would now be history.

Now you sound like a dweeb with your unrealistic genocidal fantasies but you’ve made clear on many threads on many topics you are a fascist with zero concept of principles such as rights and the law.

Edited July 9, 2024 by BeaverFever

BeaverFever · July 9, 2024

On 7/8/2024 at 7:10 AM, athos said:

You are absolutely right.

As far as we know, Semites are of Arab origin or Palestinians, while over 90% of today's Jews are not Semites but (Khazars or Turkish origin). They are actually misrepresenting themselves as Semites and this can be proven very easily with a DNA test. Being Jewish is a religious, not a racial, category.
Those who condone killing of 40,000 Semitic children and women in Gaza are actually anti-Semites and not those who criticizes non Semites.
Secondly, Christians do not serve Mammon (the Golden Calf) but God.
If some want to serve Zionist Mammon, that's their choice.

"If God is dead, anything is permitted"
F.M. Dostoyevsky

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Dead_Gaza_children_002.jpg

No your claims are completely false and you are a known antisemitic Putin propagandist

Edited July 9, 2024 by BeaverFever

Nationalist · July 10, 2024

52 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Now you sound like a dweeb with your unrealistic genocidal fantasies but you’ve made clear on many threads on many topics you are a fascist with zero concept of principles such as rights and the law.

What rights? They gave up any rights when they butchered, by hand, whole families and all those teens at that concert.

carepov · July 10, 2024

15 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Anywhere in the world?” That’s a big claim for any country, much less one that officially declares itself to exist exclusively for one specific culture

Wrong. Israel, unlike any of its neighbours, strives to exist for the benefit of all her citizens.

The State of Israel will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice, and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed, or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education, and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

https://israeled.org/resources/documents/israel-declaration-independence/#:~:text=The State of Israel will,the full social and political