Conservative jail plan

[Leafless]

I have not seen this widely reported yet but according to an article in local media up to 23 prisons will need to be built because of proposed automatic jail terms and moves towards a U.S style of justice.

Criminologist Neil Boyd a professor at simon Fraser University says " There is no evidence it will make us a safer society. The Canadian plan will send Canada down the same road as the U.S. which has the highest incarnation rate in the Western world."

Is this guy for real or do you think the justice system and prisons have been ignored by the Liberals along with the associated immigration crime scenerio as seen in cities like Toronto and something must be done?

[Drea]

Well the Federal Prison system has been without a contract since (I believe) June of 2004.

They will be negotiating this spring...

Guards are demanding safer work environments and better pay... How will the Cons handle it?

Could be we'll see our entire federal prison system shut down for a couple of months if negotiations don't go well...

Not a good time to be opening new prisons and incarcerating people by the truckload.

(I agree that our justice system needs an entire overhaul -- just typing the facts folks.)

[uOttawaMan]

I have not seen this widely reported yet but according to an article in local media up to 23 prisons will need to be built because of proposed automatic jail terms and moves towards a U.S style of justice.

Criminologist Neil Boyd a professor at simon Fraser University says " There is no evidence it will make us a safer society. The Canadian plan will send Canada down the same road as the U.S. which has the highest incarnation rate in the Western world."

Is this guy for real or do you think the justice system and prisons have been ignored by the Liberals along with the associated immigration crime scenerio as seen in cities like Toronto and something must be done?

I totally agree with him, I'm an Criminologist as well, and prisons have been shown not to provide any tangible deterrence for crime, they act more as reassurance for the general public.

As for building more prisons.. that is definetly not the answer.. in the US, part of the problem, (along with their sentencing..) is that they are trapped in an economic cycle. They have so many prisons, that employ so many people, and create more jobs in prison technology development and support staff to go along with the correctional staff, that if they shut down some prisons, they would take a major economic hit.

And yes , I am aware that it costs tens of thousands of dollars to house a prisoner, but I'm talking in terms of employmeny rate and economics in that fashion.

[Spike22]

The money from the cancelled gun registry will pay for the new prisons and additional jail time for convicts.

[Hicksey]

The money from the cancelled gun registry will pay for the new prisons and additional jail time for convicts.

Aww, you stole my thunder.

But I knew the bleeding hearts would find a way to sit on bith sides of the issue. This way they will say, "well we understand the need, BUT ... $! $! $! ... so we'll just have to let the poor (read:victims of unjust persecution OR 'society made me do it') criminals keep their get out of jail free cards"

[shoop]

Gotta love your facts. It *could* be that the entire federal prison system shuts down for a couple months????

Who are you kidding? That sooo will not happen.

I also like how the OP mentioned a *local article* but no support of any kind for that one...

Could be we'll see our entire federal prison system shut down for a couple of months if negotiations don't go well...

Not a good time to be opening new prisons and incarcerating people by the truckload.

(I agree that our justice system needs an entire overhaul -- just typing the facts folks.)

[crazymf]

It would be cheaper to offshore our prison system. Maybe to Bolivia or Argentina, where the system is away from Canadian public scrutiny. Keep a reasonable survival rate, say 8-9 out of 10 come back.

Cheap plus deterrance.

[Hicksey]

It would be cheaper to offshore our prison system. Maybe to Bolivia or Argentina, where the system is away from Canadian public scrutiny. Keep a reasonable survival rate, say 8-9 out of 10 come back.

Cheap plus deterrance.

I like it. But prepare for liberal flaming.

Even better--ban all violent criminals from the country. You get caught, you get banished--for life.

Leave jails for those that may be able to be rehabilitated. We'd have to include a 3 strikes plan for all others so if they get caught 3 times they're gone.

[sharkman]

I was talking to a guy who had a career in the prison system. He says we haven't built any substantial new capacity in our prison system since the early eighties. If a per capita crime rate stays static, then criminals will have grown in numbers by reason of our population growth since the early eighties, which has been substantial.

The problem judges have is our system is at capacity and they can't give prison terms unless there are openings in the system through parole or completed sentences. We need additional capacity, it's as simple as that. And this 'theory' that prison time doesn't reduce crime is short sighted to say the least. When the car thief is in prison he ain't stealin' cars!

Building more prisons will not magically transform us into the American system. Why is it every time some liberals object to something, whether it be budgets, medicare, pot, and now our criminal system, they trot out the America boogeyman. Scaremongering tactics add little to the debate.

[politika]

I have not seen this widely reported yet but according to an article in local media up to 23 prisons will need to be built because of proposed automatic jail terms and moves towards a U.S style of justice.

Criminologist Neil Boyd a professor at simon Fraser University says " There is no evidence it will make us a safer society. The Canadian plan will send Canada down the same road as the U.S. which has the highest incarnation rate in the Western world."

Is this guy for real or do you think the justice system and prisons have been ignored by the Liberals along with the associated immigration crime scenerio as seen in cities like Toronto and something must be done?

We definatly need to move our justice system more along the lines of US justice, we need to punish hardened criminals. Right now Canadian justice is a joke along the lines of this: A pedofile is let out after serving his term and the cops say there is a high chance of him re offending, what the hell, if so than lock him away! You don't see that kind of thing happaning in the US. We really should change.

[Wilber]

I was talking to a guy who had a career in the prison system. He says we haven't built any substantial new capacity in our prison system since the early eighties. If a per capita crime rate stays static, then criminals will have grown in numbers by reason of our population growth since the early eighties, which has been substantial.

The problem judges have is our system is at capacity and they can't give prison terms unless there are openings in the system through parole or completed sentences. We need additional capacity, it's as simple as that. And this 'theory' that prison time doesn't reduce crime is short sighted to say the least. When the car thief is in prison he ain't stealin' cars!

Building more prisons will not magically transform us into the American system. Why is it every time some liberals object to something, whether it be budgets, medicare, pot, and now our criminal system, they trot out the America boogeyman. Scaremongering tactics add little to the debate.

So much for independent judges. Judges should stick to administering the laws that were passed by Parliament. If there is not enough prison space that should be the politicians problem, not the judges.

Ever noticed that when you walk through a Customs hall in a Canadian airport all the Customs officers are wearing protective vests, even though every person in that hall has been through airport security somewhere and hasn't picked up their luggage yet. The same government that issues them those vests prohibits Corrections officers in maximum security institutions from wearing them because it may make the prisoners uncomfortable. That is how far from reality our country has moved. Time for a course correction.

[Drea]

Gotta love your facts. It *could* be that the entire federal prison system shuts down for a couple months????

Who are you kidding? That sooo will not happen.

I also like how the OP mentioned a *local article* but no support of any kind for that one...

Could be we'll see our entire federal prison system shut down for a couple of months if negotiations don't go well...

Not a good time to be opening new prisons and incarcerating people by the truckload.

(I agree that our justice system needs an entire overhaul -- just typing the facts folks.)

you a prison guard?

Friend of hubby's is. And he is set to go on strike IF NEGOTIATIONS DON'T GO WELL.

Just bad timing on the part of the government -- perhaps they oughta fix the system we have instead of just adding to it.

I repeat -- I agree that our justice and prison systems need an overhaul -- right at union negotiations is NOT the right time to be doing it!

[Drea]

It would be cheaper to offshore our prison system. Maybe to Bolivia or Argentina, where the system is away from Canadian public scrutiny. Keep a reasonable survival rate, say 8-9 out of 10 come back.

Cheap plus deterrance.

I like it. But prepare for liberal flaming.

Even better--ban all violent criminals from the country. You get caught, you get banished--for life.

Leave jails for those that may be able to be rehabilitated. We'd have to include a 3 strikes plan for all others so if they get caught 3 times they're gone.

Hyuk Hyuk!

Yah, let's shoot 'em out into space!

Where the heck else we gonna "banish" them to? California? Iran? Cuba? Russia? Timbukfreakintwo? WHERE?

Knee jerk reaction -- send all violent criminals out of the country; then they'll be someone else's problem.

editted to add:

The same government that issues them those vests prohibits Corrections officers in maximum security institutions from wearing them because it may make the prisoners uncomfortable. That is how far from reality our country has moved. Time for a course correction.

and THIS is why our federal prison guards need to negotiate a new contract -- if the new conservative gov't DOESN'T provide safer working environments (and better pay) for them then they are perfectly legal in striking.

[shoop]

I guess since your hubby's friend is a prison guard (and he is ready to go on strike) it gives you the right to avoid all logic?

Granted you need guards, but would the government *ever* allow a the entire federal prison system to shut down for a few months. Even if the guards did go on strike it likely wouldn't be legal. Think of the public safety conserns alone. If they did go on strike here is what would happen.

Either:

A. Legally ordered back to work ASAP with a mediator involved. (Most likely.)

OR

B. Look for RCMP, city police officers, armed forces (regular and reservist) to all be called in, in the event of a *short* legal strike. That would be such terrible PR for the guards I can't see it ever happening.

Thanks for that though. Any more info from your connections inside the federal prison system?

you a prison guard?

Friend of hubby's is. And he is set to go on strike IF NEGOTIATIONS DON'T GO WELL.

[uOttawaMan]

I have not seen this widely reported yet but according to an article in local media up to 23 prisons will need to be built because of proposed automatic jail terms and moves towards a U.S style of justice.

Criminologist Neil Boyd a professor at simon Fraser University says " There is no evidence it will make us a safer society. The Canadian plan will send Canada down the same road as the U.S. which has the highest incarnation rate in the Western world."

Is this guy for real or do you think the justice system and prisons have been ignored by the Liberals along with the associated immigration crime scenerio as seen in cities like Toronto and something must be done?

We definatly need to move our justice system more along the lines of US justice, we need to punish hardened criminals. Right now Canadian justice is a joke along the lines of this: A pedofile is let out after serving his term and the cops say there is a high chance of him re offending, what the hell, if so than lock him away! You don't see that kind of thing happaning in the US. We really should change.

Couldn't disagree more, US has highest incarceration rate, and its doing absolutley nothing to curb crime. It's like the death penalty, its used as symbol so that the general public is like "phew! look at all those baddies behind bars getting punished!"

After all my Crim studies, we need to maintain our current approach of rehabilitation first. There are always unfixable cases, but until we put in adequate funding , we are just locking people away, and not doing any good for society, because they will get out.

[Hicksey]

It would be cheaper to offshore our prison system. Maybe to Bolivia or Argentina, where the system is away from Canadian public scrutiny. Keep a reasonable survival rate, say 8-9 out of 10 come back.

Cheap plus deterrance.

I like it. But prepare for liberal flaming.

Even better--ban all violent criminals from the country. You get caught, you get banished--for life.

Leave jails for those that may be able to be rehabilitated. We'd have to include a 3 strikes plan for all others so if they get caught 3 times they're gone.

Hyuk Hyuk!

Yah, let's shoot 'em out into space!

Where the heck else we gonna "banish" them to? California? Iran? Cuba? Russia? Timbukfreakintwo? WHERE?

Knee jerk reaction -- send all violent criminals out of the country; then they'll be someone else's problem.

You know what?! I really don't care where they go. They obviously cannot function within the rules of our society so they ought not be allowed to be a part of it.

Sure, I'll give you that criminals need to have their rights respected during the criminal proceedings, but during the sentencing the interests of the victim, probability of the criminal comitting a subsequent offense on release and the safety risk that the criminal poses to society in general need to be the focus.

[uOttawaMan]

It would be cheaper to offshore our prison system. Maybe to Bolivia or Argentina, where the system is away from Canadian public scrutiny. Keep a reasonable survival rate, say 8-9 out of 10 come back.

Cheap plus deterrance.

I like it. But prepare for liberal flaming.

Even better--ban all violent criminals from the country. You get caught, you get banished--for life.

Leave jails for those that may be able to be rehabilitated. We'd have to include a 3 strikes plan for all others so if they get caught 3 times they're gone.

Hyuk Hyuk!

Yah, let's shoot 'em out into space!

Where the heck else we gonna "banish" them to? California? Iran? Cuba? Russia? Timbukfreakintwo? WHERE?

Knee jerk reaction -- send all violent criminals out of the country; then they'll be someone else's problem.

You know what?! I really don't care where they go. They obviously cannot function within the rules of our society so they ought not be allowed to be a part of it.

Sure, I'll give you that criminals need to have their rights respected during the criminal proceedings, but during the sentencing the interests of the victim, probability of the criminal comitting a subsequent offense on release and the safety risk that the criminal poses to society in general need to be the focus.

You telling me you've never broken the law? Lets ship out all the jaywalkers too.

[shoop]

Funny how nobody remembers Jane Creba. Was boxing day only seven weeks ago?

With the present Government in power, the perpetrator would have been in jail over the holidays and Jane would still be alive.

You telling me you've never broken the law? Lets ship out all the jaywalkers too.

[geoffrey]

Funny how nobody remembers Jane Creba. Was boxing day only seven weeks ago?

With the present Government in power, the perpetrator would have been in jail over the holidays and Jane would still be alive.

You telling me you've never broken the law? Lets ship out all the jaywalkers too.

Good call shoop, we all need to keep that in mind.

And to uOttawa, we're talking about people that have committed a violent crime, not jaywalkers.

[tml12]

Funny how nobody remembers Jane Creba. Was boxing day only seven weeks ago?

With the present Government in power, the perpetrator would have been in jail over the holidays and Jane would still be alive.

You telling me you've never broken the law? Lets ship out all the jaywalkers too.

Good call shoop, we all need to keep that in mind.

And to uOttawa, we're talking about people that have committed a violent crime, not jaywalkers.

There's a big difference between breaking the law in general or actually comitting a crime.

Seriously, shoop was referring to the events in Toronto, not some guy jaywalking (it's clear to me you've also never walked in downtown Montreal... )

[Leafless]

uOttawaMan

You wrote- " Couldn't disagree more, U.S. has highest incaceration rate and it's doing nothing to curb crime."

Maybe the U.S. is so far advanced as a affluent, democratic free society there is no other country to fairly compare crime statistics and it might very well be the most attractive country in the world that provides opportunity for crime in all areas.

I am certain if it was not for our cold Canadian winters crime would be more in line with the U.S. in this country as our diversities and lifestyles are similar. But the U.S. has a much higher transient blue collar work force coupled with more vibrant social conditons which could be responsible for more crime in that area alone.

There are few stats that take these sort of conditons into account.

[crazymf]

The British had a good idea. Remember Australia?

And why not ship criminals off to some 3rd world country for incarceration? We've all heard of 'Mexican' prisons. No one wants to go there do they? I think it would be great for a poor country to have their economy boosted with Canadian prisons. Plus, a strong message would be sent to criminals that they're just not going to be heard of again until they're done their sentence. No complaining about conditions because no one would be listening. Plus there's always a chance you ain't coming back because life certainly wouldn't be a picnic over there.

I believe people convicted of crimes shouldn't be part of our society until they are punished.

Call that knee jerk if you want, but it makes sense to me. Of course politicians most likely wouldn't endorse that because it strikes a little too close to the bone. They don't want to send themselves over there.

[Hicksey]

It would be cheaper to offshore our prison system. Maybe to Bolivia or Argentina, where the system is away from Canadian public scrutiny. Keep a reasonable survival rate, say 8-9 out of 10 come back.

Cheap plus deterrance.

I like it. But prepare for liberal flaming.

Even better--ban all violent criminals from the country. You get caught, you get banished--for life.

Leave jails for those that may be able to be rehabilitated. We'd have to include a 3 strikes plan for all others so if they get caught 3 times they're gone.

Hyuk Hyuk!

Yah, let's shoot 'em out into space!

Where the heck else we gonna "banish" them to? California? Iran? Cuba? Russia? Timbukfreakintwo? WHERE?

Knee jerk reaction -- send all violent criminals out of the country; then they'll be someone else's problem.

You know what?! I really don't care where they go. They obviously cannot function within the rules of our society so they ought not be allowed to be a part of it.

Sure, I'll give you that criminals need to have their rights respected during the criminal proceedings, but during the sentencing the interests of the victim, probability of the criminal comitting a subsequent offense on release and the safety risk that the criminal poses to society in general need to be the focus.

You telling me you've never broken the law? Lets ship out all the jaywalkers too.

I've never committed a crime beyond maybe smearing the line on copyright infringement with downloading my music.

And we're not saying that we should be hard on summary offenders. All others, absolutely. Violent crimes, Crimes with weapons, Sex Crimes, Manslaughter/Murder and repeat offenders of smaller offenses all ought to reap the most serious consequences we can offer.

[cybercoma]

I have not seen this widely reported yet but according to an article in local media up to 23 prisons will need to be built because of proposed automatic jail terms and moves towards a U.S style of justice.

Criminologist Neil Boyd a professor at simon Fraser University says " There is no evidence it will make us a safer society. The Canadian plan will send Canada down the same road as the U.S. which has the highest incarnation rate in the Western world."

Is this guy for real or do you think the justice system and prisons have been ignored by the Liberals along with the associated immigration crime scenerio as seen in cities like Toronto and something must be done?

Can you please explain to me what "US style of justice" is and how it will be implemented here in Canada. If you're going to throw out phrases like that, please explain yourself.

[Wilber]

I have not seen this widely reported yet but according to an article in local media up to 23 prisons will need to be built because of proposed automatic jail terms and moves towards a U.S style of justice.

Criminologist Neil Boyd a professor at simon Fraser University says " There is no evidence it will make us a safer society. The Canadian plan will send Canada down the same road as the U.S. which has the highest incarnation rate in the Western world."

Is this guy for real or do you think the justice system and prisons have been ignored by the Liberals along with the associated immigration crime scenerio as seen in cities like Toronto and something must be done?

We definatly need to move our justice system more along the lines of US justice, we need to punish hardened criminals. Right now Canadian justice is a joke along the lines of this: A pedofile is let out after serving his term and the cops say there is a high chance of him re offending, what the hell, if so than lock him away! You don't see that kind of thing happaning in the US. We really should change.

Couldn't disagree more, US has highest incarceration rate, and its doing absolutley nothing to curb crime. It's like the death penalty, its used as symbol so that the general public is like "phew! look at all those baddies behind bars getting punished!"

After all my Crim studies, we need to maintain our current approach of rehabilitation first. There are always unfixable cases, but until we put in adequate funding , we are just locking people away, and not doing any good for society, because they will get out.

US crime rates are down substancially since the early nineties

US Crime Statistics