Trump Documents Case On Hold

[gatomontes99]

(Bloomberg) -- Donald Trump’s criminal trial for allegedly mishandling classified documents has been postponed indefinitely in a blow to the Justice Department’s efforts to obtain a jury verdict before November’s presidential election.

Part of the reason may be this:

Special counsel Jack Smith’s team acknowledged Friday that some evidence in the prosecution of former President Donald Trump for hoarding classified documents at his Florida home may not be in the same sequence FBI agents found it when they swept into the Mar-a-Lago compound with a search warrant in August 2022.

The concession from prosecutors in a court filing Friday afternoon came after attorneys for one of Trump’s co-defendants asked for a delay in the case because the defense lawyers were having trouble determining precisely where particular documents had come from in the 33 boxes the FBI seized almost two years ago.

In their filing, prosecutors acknowledged the government had previously — and incorrectly — told U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon that the boxes remained “in their original, intact form as seized,” other than a decision to replace classified documents with placeholder sheets.

Why did they rearrange the documents? It could have been incompetence. That's the more flattering excuse.

 

[CdnFox]

16 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

(Bloomberg) -- Donald Trump’s criminal trial for allegedly mishandling classified documents has been postponed indefinitely in a blow to the Justice Department’s efforts to obtain a jury verdict before November’s presidential election.

Part of the reason may be this:

Special counsel Jack Smith’s team acknowledged Friday that some evidence in the prosecution of former President Donald Trump for hoarding classified documents at his Florida home may not be in the same sequence FBI agents found it when they swept into the Mar-a-Lago compound with a search warrant in August 2022.

The concession from prosecutors in a court filing Friday afternoon came after attorneys for one of Trump’s co-defendants asked for a delay in the case because the defense lawyers were having trouble determining precisely where particular documents had come from in the 33 boxes the FBI seized almost two years ago.

In their filing, prosecutors acknowledged the government had previously — and incorrectly — told U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon that the boxes remained “in their original, intact form as seized,” other than a decision to replace classified documents with placeholder sheets.

Why did they rearrange the documents? It could have been incompetence. That's the more flattering excuse.

 

There really is no excuse.  I mean - sure i can see how it can happen as a legitimate mistake. I don't think you need to ascribe a malicious motive or anything, people open the box to check whats inside, pull stuff out to look, and the filing inaccurately says the boxes are 'original and  intact'.

But For EFFS SAKE - you KNOW that your case is going to hang on every single detail being PERFECT.  You KNOW the defense will be looking for ANY hole or breech to exploit.  You CAN"T get it wrong.

And they got it wrong.

I said previously on this forum while the left was screaming how he's definitely going to jail over this that there were a LOT of moving parts and that unless the FBI was perfect there was going to be room for dismissing evidence which was key.

 

This is going to be a pretty big blow to the dems.  Trump will pass it off as the dems "getting caught lying while they 'rearranged' and manufactured evidence"  and these were the only charges that really had  validity and sticking power.

[Nationalist]

LOL...This dumb-ass crap is going nowhere.

[robosmith]

16 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

Why did they rearrange the documents? It could have been incompetence. That's the more flattering excuse.

Why does the sequence of the documents even matter?

Obviously they did a cursory examination to determine content and just put them back into the boxes.

What's far more egregious is the OBVIOUS slow rolling of this case by the rookie judge who's already been slapped down twice by the 11th Appeals court for SLOW ROLLING the case with an unwarranted "special master" order.

[CdnFox]

21 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Why does the sequence of the documents even matter?

It matters quite  a bit, trump's defense is that there were personal effects and items mixed in with some files and he got confused as to which boxes were which and accidentally kept files.

If the boxes have been "altered' since custody, then it can be argued that if any of the boxes DON"T have personal items in them they might have been moved to other boxes etc etc.  It was very important to the prosecution's case that the boxes were exactly as they were seized. IF evidence might have been removed or transferred from one box to another that's a very serious problem for the prosecution.

[CdnFox]

55 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

LOL...This dumb-ass crap is going nowhere.

That could very well be true at this point - it's certainly seeming like it's going nowhere  before the elections and that's when they REALLY needed it.  This was the one case where there  were serious charges where i think most people felt he was actually guilty of SOMETHING at least, whereas most of the other ones people look at as complete 'witch hunt".

With this one off the table, the left's argument that trump is bad person because law is severely weakened. AND - he's going to look like he 'beat' the system again.

[gatomontes99]

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It matters quite  a bit, trump's defense is that there were personal effects and items mixed in with some files and he got confused as to which boxes were which and accidentally kept files.

If the boxes have been "altered' since custody, then it can be argued that if any of the boxes DON"T have personal items in them they might have been moved to other boxes etc etc.  It was very important to the prosecution's case that the boxes were exactly as they were seized. IF evidence might have been removed or transferred from one box to another that's a very serious problem for the prosecution.

It also matters because there is an allegation that some of the boxes were sent by mistake. If they hadn't been gone through, then it clearly was unknown by the president and his staff that they had what they had. If Jack Smith rearranged the boxes to make it look like they had been seen, that would be his fraudulent attempt to add a layer to the case. Something the SCOTUS has accused him of doing in the past.

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, gatomontes99 said:

It also matters because there is an allegation that some of the boxes were sent by mistake. If they hadn't been gone through, then it clearly was unknown by the president and his staff that they had what they had. If Jack Smith rearranged the boxes to make it look like they had been seen, that would be his fraudulent attempt to add a layer to the case. Something the SCOTUS has accused him of doing in the past.

Sure.  In any case, a technical detail like that can very quickly torpedo a case.

Now - they may modify the charges at some point to edit out all of those that would be tainted by this. I believe (i'd have to go back and review) that there are a few charges that might survive that, such as sharing confidential  information but those were also on shakey technical legal grounds. Questions about whether the evidence can be admitted are already out there.

But that won't likely lead to a trial before november and if trump wins he'll just say "pardon me" and it's over   

[Deluge]

On 5/7/2024 at 6:01 PM, gatomontes99 said:

(Bloomberg) -- Donald Trump’s criminal trial for allegedly mishandling classified documents has been postponed indefinitely in a blow to the Justice Department’s efforts to obtain a jury verdict before November’s presidential election.

Part of the reason may be this:

Special counsel Jack Smith’s team acknowledged Friday that some evidence in the prosecution of former President Donald Trump for hoarding classified documents at his Florida home may not be in the same sequence FBI agents found it when they swept into the Mar-a-Lago compound with a search warrant in August 2022.

The concession from prosecutors in a court filing Friday afternoon came after attorneys for one of Trump’s co-defendants asked for a delay in the case because the defense lawyers were having trouble determining precisely where particular documents had come from in the 33 boxes the FBI seized almost two years ago.

In their filing, prosecutors acknowledged the government had previously — and incorrectly — told U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon that the boxes remained “in their original, intact form as seized,” other than a decision to replace classified documents with placeholder sheets.

Why did they rearrange the documents? It could have been incompetence. That's the more flattering excuse.

 

This is what happens when faux legal officials get a hardon for their political enemies. lol

[Rebound]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:10 PM, CdnFox said:

It matters quite  a bit, trump's defense is that there were personal effects and items mixed in with some files and he got confused as to which boxes were which and accidentally kept files.

If the boxes have been "altered' since custody, then it can be argued that if any of the boxes DON"T have personal items in them they might have been moved to other boxes etc etc.  It was very important to the prosecution's case that the boxes were exactly as they were seized. IF evidence might have been removed or transferred from one box to another that's a very serious problem for the prosecution.

Let me ask you something: If the cops get a warrant based on probable cause to search a drug dealer’s home for cocaine, and they find 20 ten pound bricks of cocaine at the dealers home, and videotape the entire search, does it matter whether they stack the cocaine in the same order as they found it?  If they number the bricks 1-20 and they switch the labels of cocaine bricks 3 and 4, why would that matter at all?  

[CdnFox]

46 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Let me ask you something: If the cops get a warrant based on probable cause to search a drug dealer’s home for cocaine, and they find 20 ten pound bricks of cocaine at the dealers home, and videotape the entire search, does it matter whether they stack the cocaine in the same order as they found it?  If they number the bricks 1-20 and they switch the labels of cocaine bricks 3 and 4, why would that matter at all?  

It absolutely matters if someone tampered with those bricks before they got to the evidence room and opened them up!  Many cases have been thrown out for exactly that.  And that's what happened here!

But specifically  yes the chain of evidence must be perfect or it matters.

So your question was a little silly right off the bat.  for effing sure it matters if someone interferes with evidence - it must be sealed and transported unbroken through the evidence chain. 

But - in this case despite the fact you were wrong already, the important thing is also what the crime is. Cocaine is illegal to own no matter what (in the states).  But in this case trump had posession of the documents legally - the crime was willfully not returning them when instructed to do so.  Otherwise biden would be in jail. 

So - his defense is that he may have inadvertently had some mixed in with his personal stuff.  No 'intent" just an honest mistake. 

The prosecution claims they have boxes that HAD no personal stuff, so that defense is not valid 

But if they broke the chain of evidence and OPENED and interfered with the boxes - then they can no longer present that because its' possible someone tampered with the boxes and took out personal effects. 

Every single cop everywhere is taught about the importance's of  the chain of evidence from the first day they arrive at training.  If you screw that up - the bad guy gets off every time. 

Edited May 15, 2024 by CdnFox

[gatomontes99]

45 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Let me ask you something: If the cops get a warrant based on probable cause to search a drug dealer’s home for cocaine, and they find 20 ten pound bricks of cocaine at the dealers home, and videotape the entire search, does it matter whether they stack the cocaine in the same order as they found it?  If they number the bricks 1-20 and they switch the labels of cocaine bricks 3 and 4, why would that matter at all?  

No. But it matters if it is opened and repackaged.

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, gatomontes99 said:

No. But it matters if it is opened and repackaged.

That's true but actually it does matter if the numbering is screwed too. 

You HAVE to have perfect chain of evidence. Every cop knows that. If you screw it up even a little the bad guy will get away if he's got a decent lawyer. 

BUt yes if it's opened then its just not even a discussion any more. 

[gatomontes99]

11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That's true but actually it does matter if the numbering is screwed too. 

You HAVE to have perfect chain of evidence. Every cop knows that. If you screw it up even a little the bad guy will get away if he's got a decent lawyer. 

BUt yes if it's opened then its just not even a discussion any more. 

The FBI replaced classified documents with hand written notes. I'd say that qualifies.

[Rebound]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That's true but actually it does matter if the numbering is screwed too. 

You HAVE to have perfect chain of evidence. Every cop knows that. If you screw it up even a little the bad guy will get away if he's got a decent lawyer. 

BUt yes if it's opened then its just not even a discussion any more. 

Too bad for the Big Fat Orange Man, the FBI videotaped their entire search and they meticulously entered each document into evidence. The numerical order of the envelopes hardly makes him innocent. 

“Your honor, my client had the stolen nuclear codes, but they were in envelope six, not envelope seven, so he is innocent.”  You’re a fool if you think that gets him off the hook. 

[gatomontes99]

24 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Too bad for the Big Fat Orange Man, the FBI videotaped their entire search and they meticulously entered each document into evidence. The numerical order of the envelopes hardly makes him innocent. 

“Your honor, my client had the stolen nuclear codes, but they were in envelope six, not envelope seven, so he is innocent.”  You’re a fool if you think that gets him off the hook. 

Actually, the judge agrees with us. So....now what?

Edited May 15, 2024 by gatomontes99

[CdnFox]

43 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Too bad for the Big Fat Orange Man,

ROFLMAO!!!  I can always tell when you know you're losing the desperation is palpable  

Quote

the FBI videotaped their entire search and they meticulously entered each document into evidence.

utterly irrelevant, as you'd know if you knew anything about the chain of evidence.  If the boxes were tampered with he'll probably walk even fi they've got a note from god that he's guilty.  That's the way it is. If what's being claimed is true, and given they shut the trial down indefinitely it probably is, then that'll be the end of that. An unfortunate mistake to make but it does happen fairly regularly. 

 

46 minutes ago, Rebound said:

“Your honor, my client had the stolen nuclear codes, but they were in envelope six, not envelope seven, so he is innocent.”  You’re a fool if you think that gets him off the hook. 

Of course it gets him off the hook. 

The burden of proof is on the prosecution.  IF the evidence chain is broken at any point, then none of that can be introduced as evidence.  So if their case relies on that evidence they're done.  DO you think that their case that trump illegally had documents might hinge on showing he had those documents? LOL,  pretty obvious that its' dead now they can't introduce those documents as evidence. 

That's how this works. This isn't some sort of mystery or thing you have to study 10 years in law school to understand. If you break the chain of evidence the bad guy gets away, every cop is taught that.

So now I'm imagining that what they are doing is sitting back and looking at what they can salvage. A couple of charges didn't really hinge on him having those documents at that time. For example the claim that he showed classified documents after he left office to a reporter and this was taped. There are some serious questions as to whether or not the tape should be allowed, but if they can get that in it is conceivable they could proceed with those charges. Maybe there are some elements of the documents charge that could still be salvaged, perhaps some boxes are still admissible somehow.

But it's likely dead.  Certainly till after the election. 

[robosmith]

15 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

No. But it matters if it is opened and repackaged.

It is SOP to test confiscated drugs for purity and COURT EVIDENCE of that purity. A small amount missing from one brick is NOT evidence of tampering.

[robosmith]

15 hours ago, gatomontes99 said:

The FBI replaced classified documents with hand written notes. I'd say that qualifies.

That was necessary to PROTECT the contents' secrecy. What you say doesn't really matter.

Do you have ANY experience handling classified documents? I had a TS/SCI clearance from working at TRW (now Northrop) back in the day.

1 hour ago, gatomontes99 said:

Actually, the judge agrees with us. So....now what?

Now what is that Cannon proved her INCOMPETENCE AGAIN.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

It is SOP to test confiscated drugs for purity and COURT EVIDENCE of that purity. A small amount missing from one brick is NOT evidence of tampering.

There are very strict rules about how that is to be done how it is to be documented and how the packages are to be handled. Sorry kiddo but if you don't understand what chain of evidence is then there's no point to this conversation

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

That was necessary to PROTECT the contents' secrecy.

That's nice, but it still cost them the court case. All you're saying is that it was necessary for them to lose the case