US federal government borrows and gives to Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan

[Nationalist]

31 minutes ago, robosmith said:

^Very Trumpian, AGAIN. Heroes killed in war defending their country are "suckers and losers" just like Trump said. 🤮

Of  course, that is just a cover for cowardice.

Lol...yes dear...

21 minutes ago, User said:

I am well aware of what Trump is accused of saying... it is the implication here that you made that Nationalist was saying the same thing. 

That was pretty obvious. So why do you keep playing these games?

I could answer that but...

[gatomontes99]

34 minutes ago, robosmith said:

^Very Trumpian, AGAIN. Heroes killed in war defending their country are "suckers and losers" just like Trump said. 🤮

Of  course, that is just a cover for cowardice.

Prove Trump said that.

[impartialobserver]

8 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Really?

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-outnumbered-outgunned-ground-down-by-relentless-russia-2024-02-21/

Good point. But is not voting a realistic option?

I simply vote third party on most occasions. I am realistic and honest enough to know that it has no real impact on the outcome however it satisfies my conscience.

[Rebound]

3 hours ago, Deluge said:

Thank you, comrade, but nobody gives a shit. 

What are democrats doing to turn the tide? Increasing taxes sounds sexy, but that just makes you cultists want to pi$$ more money away. 

So what's the solution? 

Making America Great Again means going back to the tax rates that worked and resulted in zero deficits or minimal deficits.  Right? 

[Nationalist]

14 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

I simply vote third party on most occasions. I am realistic and honest enough to know that it has no real impact on the outcome however it satisfies my conscience.

I would salute your principled voting habits. I choose to try to make a difference. Although...a 3rd party vote does also send a message to the political class. Hence they make it almost impossible for 3rd party candidates to go for it. Frankly I think RFK Jr would be better than Brandon.

[User]

30 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Really?

Yes, really. 

I could not read the article, paywall. However, I get the gist of it. I am not here arguing this is unicorns and rainbows for Ukraine, but it certainly isn't for the Russians either... as we drag on to year 3 now. 

Ukraine is working on mobilizing more forces and like I said, we can help them with supplies. 

[impartialobserver]

20 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I would salute your principled voting habits. I choose to try to make a difference. Although...a 3rd party vote does also send a message to the political class. Hence they make it almost impossible for 3rd party candidates to go for it. Frankly I think RFK Jr would be better than Brandon.

voting because someone has a chance is to win.. is a terrible way to go about it. If I was in control.. my first mandate would be to have every cabinet department trim its budget by 2% every year. If they can't do it... then someone else will do it for them and the cuts will be 4% or greater. Seconds, use it or lose it grant funding would cease. Finally, long term contracts would get re-examined. If you find out in year 2 of 10 that it is not working.. you should not have to continue paying in years 3 to 10. 

[Nationalist]

33 minutes ago, User said:

Yes, really. 

I could not read the article, paywall. However, I get the gist of it. I am not here arguing this is unicorns and rainbows for Ukraine, but it certainly isn't for the Russians either... as we drag on to year 3 now. 

Ukraine is working on mobilizing more forces and like I said, we can help them with supplies. 

You can try. But Ukraine simply cannot win a war of attrition with Russia. They are already raising the conscription age and begging Europe to give back the Ukraine refugees.

[User]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

You can try. But Ukraine simply cannot win a war of attrition with Russia. They are already raising the conscription age and begging Europe to give back the Ukraine refugees.

Except, by whatever stats we do have, Russia is losing A LOT more. And it is not just manpower, it is the all the costs for the logistics. Ukraine can outlast Russia a lot better there with our help. 

Russia has also been having to conscript forces, pay mercenaries, and come up with ways to keep feeding men to the meat grinder. Let's not pretend things are going rosy with them. 

[Nationalist]

22 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

voting because someone has a chance is to win.. is a terrible way to go about it. If I was in control.. my first mandate would be to have every cabinet department trim its budget by 2% every year. If they can't do it... then someone else will do it for them and the cuts will be 4% or greater. Seconds, use it or lose it grant funding would cease. Finally, long term contracts would get re-examined. If you find out in year 2 of 10 that it is not working.. you should not have to continue paying in years 3 to 10. 

I like your thinking. The bureaucracies desperately need a haircut.

[impartialobserver]

Just now, Nationalist said:

I like your thinking. The bureaucracies desperately need a haircut.

however, no politician that can win could have this on his platform. We live in a short term thinking kind of world and this (above) is long term thinking. Lower budgets could (i know unrealistic and no I have not had a beer yet) lead to less taxation. Less taxation would mean more income and less complexity. 

[Nationalist]

56 minutes ago, User said:

Except, by whatever stats we do have, Russia is losing A LOT more. And it is not just manpower, it is the all the costs for the logistics. Ukraine can outlast Russia a lot better there with our help. 

Russia has also been having to conscript forces, pay mercenaries, and come up with ways to keep feeding men to the meat grinder. Let's not pretend things are going rosy with them. 

No I'm sure it's Hell. Do you figure Russia is going to just leave? They aren't. So the plan is what? The complete destruction of the Ukrainian population?

[Caswell Thomas]

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Let's be real clear. Expand means expand. NATO did...Russia did not...until now.

Understand, I could care less about either Ukraine or Russia. But logic dictates that Ukraine cannot win. It ain'-a-gonna happen.

I would negotiate a peace deal now, before what's left of Ukraine still exists.

Russia..did nit? Since when!!!! Russia has many b times expanded into other countries taking them.iver. the Russian Army is trying to do to Ukraine what they did to Eastonia, Latvia and Lithuania in 1940. 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Caswell Thomas said:

Russia..did nit? Since when!!!! Russia has many b times expanded into other countries taking them.iver. the Russian Army is trying to do to Ukraine what they did to Eastonia, Latvia and Lithuania in 1940. 

Let's try to draw inside the lines here. At least within this century.

[User]

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

No I'm sure it's Hell. Do you figure Russia is going to just leave? They aren't. So the plan is what? The complete destruction of the Ukrainian population?

If my math is correct, we are looking at 250 years at this rate before they are completely destroyed. 
 

Well, I guess we should just disband NATO, surrender Europe to Russia in total... it certainly is not worth fighting anyone as determined as they are. Just get it over with now.... *eye roll*

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, User said:

If my math is correct, we are looking at 250 years at this rate before they are completely destroyed. 
 

Well, I guess we should just disband NATO, surrender Europe to Russia in total... it certainly is not worth fighting anyone as determined as they are. Just get it over with now.... *eye roll*

If your math is correct? If it's correct, Ukraine will be reduced to old retired people and kids.

What makes you think Russia has any interest in a war with Europe? What makes you think Europeans have any interest in a full scale war with Russia?

[User]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

If your math is correct? If it's correct, Ukraine will be reduced to old retired people and kids.

What makes you think Russia has any interest in a war with Europe? What makes you think Europeans have any interest in a full scale war with Russia?

Yeah, if for some reason the war continues at this pace for another two centuries... 

This is your argument, not mine. That because Russia is more determined, according to you, unwilling to quit... then Ukraine must surrender just to get it over with. Russia can just start picking off each of the Eastern Block countries, Poland, etc... because it isn't worth fighting someone more determined than you, just surrender. 

[Nationalist]

19 minutes ago, User said:

Yeah, if for some reason the war continues at this pace for another two centuries... 

This is your argument, not mine. That because Russia is more determined, according to you, unwilling to quit... then Ukraine must surrender just to get it over with. Russia can just start picking off each of the Eastern Block countries, Poland, etc... because it isn't worth fighting someone more determined than you, just surrender. 

You know I didn't say surrender. You also know that Russia has no intention of starting a war with NATO. If such a war does start, it'll be started by a NATO nation.

You're usually quite level headed. Why would you resort to BS here?

[User]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

You know I didn't say surrender. You also know that Russia has no intention of starting a war with NATO. If such a war does start, it'll be started by a NATO nation.

You're usually quite level headed. Why would you resort to BS here?

OK, you did not say surrender... but isn't that exactly what you mean when you want Ukraine to stop and you want us to stop helping them. No? 

Again, if your argument here is that it is not worth fighting Russia because they are more determined... why doesn't that apply to NATO? Or any other nation not NATO they invade next?

Why wouldn't they invade more if the policy countries enacted was what you say... no point in fighting back, they are more determined!

I am pointing out the absurdity of your argument here. 

[Nationalist]

44 minutes ago, User said:

OK, you did not say surrender... but isn't that exactly what you mean when you want Ukraine to stop and you want us to stop helping them. No? 

Again, if your argument here is that it is not worth fighting Russia because they are more determined... why doesn't that apply to NATO? Or any other nation not NATO they invade next?

Why wouldn't they invade more if the policy countries enacted was what you say... no point in fighting back, they are more determined!

I am pointing out the absurdity of your argument here. 

I have no doubt a lot of Ukrainian soldiers are determined. I have no doubt a lot of Russian soldiers are determined. So what?

My position has nothing to do with determination. It has to do with the reality of the situation. 

1. Russia has broached the idea of joining NATO multiple times and have been rejected. Such an alliance would have negated the reason for NATO. Thus NATO has reinforced a conflict that is, essentially,  unnecessary.  Why?

2. NATO has rejected Ukraine as a NATO member. Thus Ukraine is not a protected state.

3. It is evident from original comments from Brandon, that the USA would have been ok with a "minor incursion".

4. You claim Ukraine has the manpower to continue to fight for 2 and a half more centuries. First of all, that's just a silly and untrue assertion. It's completely unrealistic. Second, would you really want a never ending war in Ukraine? Would that be a good way to use our own tax money?

5. Ukraine does not have the ability...alone...to remove Russian forces from that eastern region. Would you want NATO forces to join the war? Do you really think NATO citizens are willing to go to war with Russia over a NATO reject?

[User]

28 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I have no doubt a lot of Ukrainian soldiers are determined. I have no doubt a lot of Russian soldiers are determined. So what?

My position has nothing to do with determination. It has to do with the reality of the situation. 

1. Russia has broached the idea of joining NATO multiple times and have been rejected. Such an alliance would have negated the reason for NATO. Thus NATO has reinforced a conflict that is, essentially,  unnecessary.  Why?

2. NATO has rejected Ukraine as a NATO member. Thus Ukraine is not a protected state.

3. It is evident from original comments from Brandon, that the USA would have been ok with a "minor incursion".

4. You claim Ukraine has the manpower to continue to fight for 2 and a half more centuries. First of all, that's just a silly and untrue assertion. It's completely unrealistic. Second, would you really want a never ending war in Ukraine? Would that be a good way to use our own tax money?

5. Ukraine does not have the ability...alone...to remove Russian forces from that eastern region. Would you want NATO forces to join the war? Do you really think NATO citizens are willing to go to war with Russia over a NATO reject?

You asked the following rhetorical questions:

"Do you figure Russia is going to just leave? They aren't. So the plan is what? The complete destruction of the Ukrainian population?"

The root of your position here is that we should not support Ukraine and their cause is hopeless, so either just let them die faster without our support or... they surrender because they can't fight anymore. No?

And to your questions, you are driving at the point that Russia is more determined when you ask if I think they will just leave. No?

1. You can't be serious about Russia joining NATO. Russia joining NATO doesn't change what Russia is or was and how they still operate. Also... where do you get there was ever any serious attempt by Russia to want to join NATO? IT was suggested after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but no serious attempts were made and since then Russia has not worked with us on many collaborative endeavors to show they are good partners. Seriously, where are you getting this from?

2. I am not advocating we go to full war to protect Ukraine, so what is your point? America can still have an interest in helping people if they are not in NATO. 

3. Whatever incompetence Biden was a part of is not justification to support Russia now. It is reason to oppose Biden. I think we could have avoided the entire war if we spent the months we knew Russia was building up for an invasion sending Ukraine 60 billion in defense support BEFORE, not after. 

4. Not silly at all. How many deaths have they sustained and how many combat ineffective wounds? Lets take the Russian inflated numbers and say that is 100,000 dead or wounded in Ukraine. There is 38 million people in Ukraine. Estimating about 20 Million of those 38 Million are in a reasonable fighting age category of 18 to 50. Hell, take out another 5 million for good measure, just in case they are disable or have blisters on their feet... That is 15 million people. That is 150 years of losses IF it was 100,000 a year, but that is 100,000 every 3 years... A never ending war in Ukraine presume Russia is willing to engage in war forever... I make no such presumptions their economy will sustain this and Putin will not live that long. 

5. The war will likely end in some kind of peace deal that leaves Russia in at a minimum Crimea, obviously, and likely some amount of the Donbas as well, but we must continue to support Ukraine to make it too costly for Russia to continue beyond anything more.But it may take many years of a stagnant war front to get there. No, I do not support open war with Russia, but I certainly do support continuing to support Ukraine how we have been if not giving them better than our left over relics we are retiring. 

 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, User said:

You asked the following rhetorical questions:

"Do you figure Russia is going to just leave? They aren't. So the plan is what? The complete destruction of the Ukrainian population?"

The root of your position here is that we should not support Ukraine and their cause is hopeless, so either just let them die faster without our support or... they surrender because they can't fight anymore. No?

And to your questions, you are driving at the point that Russia is more determined when you ask if I think they will just leave. No?

1. You can't be serious about Russia joining NATO. Russia joining NATO doesn't change what Russia is or was and how they still operate. Also... where do you get there was ever any serious attempt by Russia to want to join NATO? IT was suggested after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but no serious attempts were made and since then Russia has not worked with us on many collaborative endeavors to show they are good partners. Seriously, where are you getting this from?

2. I am not advocating we go to full war to protect Ukraine, so what is your point? America can still have an interest in helping people if they are not in NATO. 

3. Whatever incompetence Biden was a part of is not justification to support Russia now. It is reason to oppose Biden. I think we could have avoided the entire war if we spent the months we knew Russia was building up for an invasion sending Ukraine 60 billion in defense support BEFORE, not after. 

4. Not silly at all. How many deaths have they sustained and how many combat ineffective wounds? Lets take the Russian inflated numbers and say that is 100,000 dead or wounded in Ukraine. There is 38 million people in Ukraine. Estimating about 20 Million of those 38 Million are in a reasonable fighting age category of 18 to 50. Hell, take out another 5 million for good measure, just in case they are disable or have blisters on their feet... That is 15 million people. That is 150 years of losses IF it was 100,000 a year, but that is 100,000 every 3 years... A never ending war in Ukraine presume Russia is willing to engage in war forever... I make no such presumptions their economy will sustain this and Putin will not live that long. 

5. The war will likely end in some kind of peace deal that leaves Russia in at a minimum Crimea, obviously, and likely some amount of the Donbas as well, but we must continue to support Ukraine to make it too costly for Russia to continue beyond anything more.But it may take many years of a stagnant war front to get there. No, I do not support open war with Russia, but I certainly do support continuing to support Ukraine how we have been if not giving them better than our left over relics we are retiring. 

 

"Russia, however, had pretty different ideas. It laid out some aggressive demands. Among them were: Ukraine’s neutrality and no membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO); so-called “demilitarization and “denazification;” the protection of Russian language within Ukraine; and that Ukraine recognize Crimea as part of Russia and recognize the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk, the two regions in eastern Ukraine that Vladimir Putin had declared as independent on the eve of his full-scale invasion.

In recent days, some glimmers of optimism have emerged. Ukraine has put forward serious proposals, which is centered around a commitment to permanent neutrality and an agreement not to seek NATO membership, in exchange for security guarantees. Russia has also reportedly eased up on some of its previous demands, including “denazification” — a likely ruse for regime change — and “demilitarization,” a sign that Ukraine’s battlefield successes so far have pushed the Kremlin to possibly reconsider some of its most maximalist demands."

https://www.vox.com/2022/4/1/23002085/peace-talks-ukraine-russia-war-turkey-neutrality

And within weeks...Hell days...

"The Ukrainian news outlet Ukrayinska Pravda reported Thursday that British Prime Minister Boris Johnson used his surprise visit to Kyiv last month to pressure President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to cut off peace negotiations with Russia, even after the two sides appeared to have made tenuous progress toward a settlement to end the war."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper

Since then, Zelinsky has outlawed discussions directly with Putin. 

The reason Ukraine was rejected by NATO was corruption. Yet we blindly send them arms and cash. What do you think is happening here? Zelinsky and his cronies have already been accused of pilfering the finance and apparently some of the munitions are being sold on the black market.

We...as in all humans and our nations...are trying to "fix" the mess created by The Rona. Inflation is rampant and our debts are staggeringly huge now. Yet we should finance a dispute between dumb and dumber?

No!

If NATO needs to save face...they should IMPOSE a peace negotiation on both sides based on what Boris killed 2 years ago.

Edited April 25 by Nationalist

[User]

14 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

"Russia, however, had pretty different ideas. It laid out some aggressive demands. Among them were: Ukraine’s neutrality and no membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO); so-called “demilitarization and “denazification;” the protection of Russian language within Ukraine; and that Ukraine recognize Crimea as part of Russia and recognize the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk, the two regions in eastern Ukraine that Vladimir Putin had declared as independent on the eve of his full-scale invasion.

In recent days, some glimmers of optimism have emerged. Ukraine has put forward serious proposals, which is centered around a commitment to permanent neutrality and an agreement not to seek NATO membership, in exchange for security guarantees. Russia has also reportedly eased up on some of its previous demands, including “denazification” — a likely ruse for regime change — and “demilitarization,” a sign that Ukraine’s battlefield successes so far have pushed the Kremlin to possibly reconsider some of its most maximalist demands."

https://www.vox.com/2022/4/1/23002085/peace-talks-ukraine-russia-war-turkey-neutrality

And within weeks...Hell days...

"The Ukrainian news outlet Ukrayinska Pravda reported Thursday that British Prime Minister Boris Johnson used his surprise visit to Kyiv last month to pressure President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to cut off peace negotiations with Russia, even after the two sides appeared to have made tenuous progress toward a settlement to end the war."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper

Since then, Zelinsky has outlawed discussions directly with Putin. 

The reason Ukraine was rejected by NATO was corruption. Yet we blindly send them arms and cash. What do you think is happening here? Zelinsky and his cronies have already been accused of pilfering the finance and apparently some of the munitions are being sold on the black market.

We...as in all humans and our nations...are trying to "fix" the mess created by The Rona. Inflation is rampant and our debts are staggeringly huge now. Yet we should finance a dispute between dumb and dumber?

No!

So... are you abandoning the other discussion then?

This is turning into a not fun game of whack-a-mole for me. 

I am, quite frankly, not entirely interested in your history revision here, leaving out a lot of details to make such specious conclusions. 

I mean, before Zelensky passed that law, Putin make the proclomation that several terroritories would be Russian forever... which prompted this response, not that Borris Johnson was characterized a month earlier as sabotaging peace talks... (which is also disputed) and missing a lot of context around the unrealistic demands being made at the time...

“He does not know what dignity and honesty are. Therefore, we are ready for a dialog with Russia, but with another president of Russia,” Zelensky said on Friday.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-law-declaring-talks-with-putin-impossible/

So... now your big argument is to contrast Ukraine and Russia as being morally equal (dumb and dumber) so why should we support Ukraine? This is not a serious assertion at all. Russia is the aggressor here, Putin is the arguably evil dictator. Ukraine is not Russia and Zelensky is not Putin. Trying to reduce them to being equal here is less than honest. 

As far as our attention span goes... again, the support we are giving them is a drop in the bucket compared to our budget and again, it is a great investment in how it has significantly reduced Russian capabilities. 

 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, User said:

So... are you abandoning the other discussion then?

This is turning into a not fun game of whack-a-mole for me. 

I am, quite frankly, not entirely interested in your history revision here, leaving out a lot of details to make such specious conclusions. 

I mean, before Zelensky passed that law, Putin make the proclomation that several terroritories would be Russian forever... which prompted this response, not that Borris Johnson was characterized a month earlier as sabotaging peace talks... (which is also disputed) and missing a lot of context around the unrealistic demands being made at the time...

“He does not know what dignity and honesty are. Therefore, we are ready for a dialog with Russia, but with another president of Russia,” Zelensky said on Friday.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/04/zelensky-signs-law-declaring-talks-with-putin-impossible/

So... now your big argument is to contrast Ukraine and Russia as being morally equal (dumb and dumber) so why should we support Ukraine? This is not a serious assertion at all. Russia is the aggressor here, Putin is the arguably evil dictator. Ukraine is not Russia and Zelensky is not Putin. Trying to reduce them to being equal here is less than honest. 

As far as our attention span goes... again, the support we are giving them is a drop in the bucket compared to our budget and again, it is a great investment in how it has significantly reduced Russian capabilities. 

 

You said yourself...

"The war will likely end in some kind of peace deal that leaves Russia in at a minimum Crimea, obviously, and likely some amount of the Donbas as well, "

Would you prefer that now...or later?

[User]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

You said yourself...

"The war will likely end in some kind of peace deal that leaves Russia in at a minimum Crimea, obviously, and likely some amount of the Donbas as well, "

Would you prefer that now...or later?

Abandoning Ukraine doesn't result in a peace deal, it results in a Russian victory.