myata Posted April 22 Report Share Posted April 22 First of all, one has to give their due to the reasonable and courageous representatives, on both sides of the political and social now, divide for attending to an important matter thanks to who the freedom and a safe and peaceful future of the world - that includes the United States, will have a chance. Including, in a surprise to me, the Speaker of the House. Respect is due where it belongs. But one cannot ignore this side of reality too: more than a half of the Republicans: 112 versus 101, with 5 standing by voted against the Ukraine assistance bill. Earlier in 2022, just after Putin's brutal invasion was unleashed, the support for Ukraine assistance was unanimous. How can one explain this? What has changed about the nature of Putin's war and its significance, should he and his rising Totalitarian axis be allowed to prevail, for the future of the world, including the U.S.? The answer is obvious: the reality of the world has not changed; what has changed is the (formerly) party. Is there a logical explanation why 90 Republicans: nearly a half of the caucus, voted for the aid to Israel but against that for Ukraine? Is Putin with his totalitarian buddies any less dangerous for the long term interests of the U.S. than Hamas and Iran? There's no logical explanation because it does not lie in the domain of logic but in the psychology and anatomy of emerging authoritarian cults. It is not about reason, logic, integrity and the morals. It's about getting the cue from the Idol and following it blindly. Can overshoot in the zeal a bit but not by too much: only the Idol decides on the next target and strategy. It played out so many times in history that the future can be read like a music sheet. The hundred or so inviduals who made the decision based on their own reasoning and integrity have been recorded and will be pushed out by the cult, quetly or not, with time but certainly. Only the zealots will be allowed to remain, genuine jerks or those who decided to comply and fit in. This is how it happened and the stencil for every new authoritarian cult. The explanation is simple too: to orchestrate the cult, the demands of the Idol will become progressively less sane and more outrageous so even a grain of sane thought and dissent cannot be allowed. The excitement, on different levels all the way to ridiculous bizarrity is the only reaction that is still allowed. Check North Korea - it's coming to your (formerly) party one way or the other. Just as Reagan and Bush's conservatives were ostracised and pushed out, you are the next ones in line. Not heeding the cue of the Master, showing independence and the ability to think for yourself is the most serious transgression in the cult. You knew it. And to the other party, a piece of advice - not from me but only because it happened so many boring times in the history. You cannot stand by and hope to extract little and temporary advantages from these things because they have a tendency to consume: even the entire society. You have to fight them here and now, with all the force and vigor. Don't give the cult even small gains, but face and defeat it at every and each encounter. The job of the Speaker can be one of such skirmishes coming up. Leave partisan plays for better times and remember what's at stake: here and now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted April 22 Report Share Posted April 22 Or... you might consider what those Republicans and many of their constituents are demanding: Serious legislation to secure our border. Yes, there is a small fraction of the GOP that, for any amount of flawed reasoning, does oppose sending more aid to Ukraine, just as there is that kind of fraction of the Democrats who also oppose aid to Israel. Most of the Republicans who voted no on Ukraine aid were doing so because they wanted to see an aid package and legislation improving our border security first or something more to control our budget deficit/debt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted April 22 Report Share Posted April 22 8 hours ago, myata said: First of all, one has to give their due to the reasonable and courageous representatives, on both sides of the political and social now, divide for attending to an important matter thanks to who the freedom and a safe and peaceful future of the world - that includes the United States, will have a chance. Including, in a surprise to me, the Speaker of the House. Respect is due where it belongs. But one cannot ignore this side of reality too: more than a half of the Republicans: 112 versus 101, with 5 standing by voted against the Ukraine assistance bill. Earlier in 2022, just after Putin's brutal invasion was unleashed, the support for Ukraine assistance was unanimous. How can one explain this? What has changed about the nature of Putin's war and its significance, should he and his rising Totalitarian axis be allowed to prevail, for the future of the world, including the U.S.? The answer is obvious: the reality of the world has not changed; what has changed is the (formerly) party. Is there a logical explanation why 90 Republicans: nearly a half of the caucus, voted for the aid to Israel but against that for Ukraine? Is Putin with his totalitarian buddies any less dangerous for the long term interests of the U.S. than Hamas and Iran? There's no logical explanation because it does not lie in the domain of logic but in the psychology and anatomy of emerging authoritarian cults. It is not about reason, logic, integrity and the morals. It's about getting the cue from the Idol and following it blindly. Can overshoot in the zeal a bit but not by too much: only the Idol decides on the next target and strategy. It played out so many times in history that the future can be read like a music sheet. The hundred or so inviduals who made the decision based on their own reasoning and integrity have been recorded and will be pushed out by the cult, quetly or not, with time but certainly. Only the zealots will be allowed to remain, genuine jerks or those who decided to comply and fit in. This is how it happened and the stencil for every new authoritarian cult. The explanation is simple too: to orchestrate the cult, the demands of the Idol will become progressively less sane and more outrageous so even a grain of sane thought and dissent cannot be allowed. The excitement, on different levels all the way to ridiculous bizarrity is the only reaction that is still allowed. Check North Korea - it's coming to your (formerly) party one way or the other. Just as Reagan and Bush's conservatives were ostracised and pushed out, you are the next ones in line. Not heeding the cue of the Master, showing independence and the ability to think for yourself is the most serious transgression in the cult. You knew it. And to the other party, a piece of advice - not from me but only because it happened so many boring times in the history. You cannot stand by and hope to extract little and temporary advantages from these things because they have a tendency to consume: even the entire society. You have to fight them here and now, with all the force and vigor. Don't give the cult even small gains, but face and defeat it at every and each encounter. The job of the Speaker can be one of such skirmishes coming up. Leave partisan plays for better times and remember what's at stake: here and now. How much money do these poor bastards need? The U.S. needs to help Ukraine dump its leech of a leader and get a real leader in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted April 22 Report Share Posted April 22 4 hours ago, Deluge said: How much money do these poor bastards need? They need enough to buy (from us) more ammunition than the Russians have. Duh 4 hours ago, Deluge said: The U.S. needs to help Ukraine dump its leech of a leader and get a real leader in there. Just cause FOS LIES told you Zelenskiy is buying yachts and mansions, does not make it true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted April 22 Report Share Posted April 22 5 hours ago, User said: Or... you might consider what those Republicans and many of their constituents are demanding: Serious legislation to secure our border. There was such a bill on the table, but Trump shot it down and told everyone to blame HIM. 5 hours ago, User said: Yes, there is a small fraction of the GOP that, for any amount of flawed reasoning, does oppose sending more aid to Ukraine, just as there is that kind of fraction of the Democrats who also oppose aid to Israel. The majority of the House GOP caucus which voted against Ukraine aid is NOT "a small fraction." 5 hours ago, User said: Most of the Republicans who voted no on Ukraine aid were doing so because they wanted to see an aid package and legislation improving our border security first or something more to control our budget deficit/debt. That's what they LIED to you, and unfortunately YOU BOUGHT IT. Trump demanded they trash the bipartisan bill cause he thought it was better as a campaign issue for HIM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted April 22 Report Share Posted April 22 10 minutes ago, robosmith said: There was such a bill on the table, but Trump shot it down and told everyone to blame HIM. The majority of the House GOP caucus which voted against Ukraine aid is NOT "a small fraction." That's what they LIED to you, and unfortunately YOU BOUGHT IT. Trump demanded they trash the bipartisan bill cause he thought it was better as a campaign issue for HIM. That Bill was dead on arrival in the House whether Trump ever said a word or not. Either way, that is an irrelevant side point to the issue we are discussing here, which is the motivation as to why many in the GOP voted no. The lack of support for that particular bill doesn't mean there was no support for action. The House did pass comprehensive Immigration last year... which died in the Senate controlled by Democrats. My exact words were not that the total amount of votes for no were a small fraction, but the amount of those no votes that were opposed to the $$$ because they did in fact oppose $$$ going to Ukraine either way, was a small fraction. The point of my post was that many of those no votes were no votes because they wanted to see it tied to border legislation. What do you base calling it a lie on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted April 22 Report Share Posted April 22 21 minutes ago, robosmith said: They need enough to buy (from us) more ammunition than the Russians have. Duh Just cause FOS LIES told you Zelenskiy is buying yachts and mansions, does not make it true. Ukraine's had more than enough help. It's time for you and your pet leeches to f*ck off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 4 hours ago, User said: That Bill was dead on arrival in the House whether Trump ever said a word or not. Either way, that is an irrelevant side point to the issue we are discussing here, which is the motivation as to why many in the GOP voted no. The lack of support for that particular bill doesn't mean there was no support for action. The House did pass comprehensive Immigration last year... which died in the Senate controlled by Democrats. My exact words were not that the total amount of votes for no were a small fraction, but the amount of those no votes that were opposed to the $$$ because they did in fact oppose $$$ going to Ukraine either way, was a small fraction. The point of my post was that many of those no votes were no votes because they wanted to see it tied to border legislation. What do you base calling it a lie on? They LIED to you about wanting it tied to a border bill and that became undeniable when the border bill died in the Senate after Trump told them to kill it. Do you understand NOW? LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 6 minutes ago, robosmith said: They LIED to you about wanting it tied to a border bill and that became undeniable when the border bill died in the Senate after Trump told them to kill it. Do you understand NOW? LMAO You just asserted the same thing again. Here, let me repost what I wrote, and maybe you can try again and do better next time in your response: "The lack of support for that particular bill doesn't mean there was no support for action. The House did pass comprehensive Immigration last year... which died in the Senate controlled by Democrats." Lack of support for that particular border bill != no support for any border bill. This is pretty basic logic stuff and your speculation isn't proof anyone lied. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 21 minutes ago, User said: You just asserted the same thing again. Here, let me repost what I wrote, and maybe you can try again and do better next time in your response: "The lack of support for that particular bill doesn't mean there was no support for action. The House did pass comprehensive Immigration last year... which died in the Senate controlled by Democrats." Lack of support for that particular border bill != no support for any border bill. This is pretty basic logic stuff and your speculation isn't proof anyone lied. Dude...save your head with this one. I'm still not convinced @robosmith isn't a bot. I mean...how many times a day can you scream about FOX News? Or any particular "news" outlet. But it's robo-bot's theme. Meh...anyway. You're correct of course. But you appear to have a grasp of reality so...you know... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatomontes99 Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 5 hours ago, User said: What do you base calling it a lie on? You fractured his fantasy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 6 hours ago, User said: You just asserted the same thing again. Here, let me repost what I wrote, and maybe you can try again and do better next time in your response: "The lack of support for that particular bill doesn't mean there was no support for action. The House did pass comprehensive Immigration last year... which died in the Senate controlled by Democrats." Lack of support for that particular border bill != no support for any border bill. This is pretty basic logic stuff and your speculation isn't proof anyone lied. Trump's demand that the bill be trashed in favor of a political issue proves they LIED TO YOU about wanting to do something about the border. Yes, the HOUSE had a partisan bill that had NO HOPE of passing the Senate and they knew it, which means they WERE NOT SERIOUS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 6 hours ago, Nationalist said: Dude...save your head with this one. I'm still not convinced @robosmith isn't a bot. Thanks for proving again that you KNOW NOTHING about AI. 6 hours ago, Nationalist said: I mean...how many times a day can you scream about FOX News? Or any particular "news" outlet. But it's robo-bot's theme. Meh...anyway. You're correct of course. But you appear to have a grasp of reality so...you know... But your cognitive dissonance proves over and over that you have no grasp on reality. You don't even understand how FOS LIES destroyed their credibility when they LOST the Dominion lawsuit and had to pay $800M for LYING. Anyone SANE would NEVER TRUST what they say AGAIN. Like Trump's LIES. 5 hours ago, gatomontes99 said: You fractured his fantasy. You reveal your FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 2 hours ago, robosmith said: Thanks for proving again that you KNOW NOTHING about AI. But your cognitive dissonance proves over and over that you have no grasp on reality. You don't even understand how FOS LIES destroyed their credibility when they LOST the Dominion lawsuit and had to pay $800M for LYING. Anyone SANE would NEVER TRUST what they say AGAIN. Like Trump's LIES. Yes dear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatomontes99 Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 4 hours ago, robosmith said: Thanks for proving again that you KNOW NOTHING about AI. But your cognitive dissonance proves over and over that you have no grasp on reality. You don't even understand how FOS LIES destroyed their credibility when they LOST the Dominion lawsuit and had to pay $800M for LYING. Anyone SANE would NEVER TRUST what they say AGAIN. Like Trump's LIES. You reveal your FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND what happened. No. I understand exactly what happened. The Bill Joe's handlers wanted normalized 5,000 migrants a day. Then, it actually made the 5,000 a day just people from central and south American countries. So all these Asian and European invaders wouldn't count. Even when it hit 5,000 a day from central and south America, it still only forced CBP to direct illegals to a processing center, to be let in. And all that could be undone by the President if he declared an emergency. In the end, the bill that was passed was a spending bill that normalized illegal immigration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 6 hours ago, robosmith said: Trump's demand that the bill be trashed in favor of a political issue proves they LIED TO YOU about wanting to do something about the border. Yes, the HOUSE had a partisan bill that had NO HOPE of passing the Senate and they knew it, which means they WERE NOT SERIOUS. Alright. You just keep repeating yourself and are not responding to my criticism. Continually asserting they lied... does not answer how you know they lied. Knowing your bill is not going to clear the Senate doesn't mean you do not support Border protections. If that is your big argument... then the Senate trying to pass what they did was not serious either, knowing the House was never going to really consider it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 (edited) 7 hours ago, robosmith said: Trump's demand that the bill be trashed in favor of a political issue proves they LIED TO YOU about wanting to do something about the border. Yes, the HOUSE had a partisan bill that had NO HOPE of passing the Senate and they knew it, which means they WERE NOT SERIOUS. they WERE NOT SERIOUS about measured illegal immigration. Nobody is except woke border erasing cultists. ZERO illegal immigrants needs to be the goal, NOT UP TO 5,000 per day. Democrats are liars and they need to be told to f*ck off, like they were on this piece of shit proposal. Besides, Trump will fix this problem when he returns to the WH next January, so we only have to put up with this bullshit for a few more months. Edited April 23 by Deluge 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 On 4/22/2024 at 2:03 AM, myata said: .... But one cannot ignore this side of reality too: more than a half of the Republicans: 112 versus 101, with 5 standing by voted against the Ukraine assistance bill. Earlier in 2022, just after Putin's brutal invasion was unleashed, the support for Ukraine assistance was unanimous. .... This cut/paste post terrifies me. Unlike JFK & Nixon - who sought freedom for all peacefully - you Americans now want war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 3 hours ago, August1991 said: This cut/paste post terrifies me. Unlike JFK & Nixon - who sought freedom for all peacefully - you Americans now want war. What do you mean, Americans want war? War in Ukraine? Somewhere else? Just in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 5 minutes ago, User said: What do you mean... OMG. I'm talking with a computer - in public. JFK and Nixon did not want war. They knew what it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 1 minute ago, August1991 said: OMG. I'm talking with a computer - in public. JFK and Nixon did not want war. They knew what it was. I don't know who you are talking to, you completely ignored my question. I didn't say anything about JFK or Nixon, nor did I ask you about that part of your comment. You said: "you Americans now want war." I asked: "What do you mean, Americans want war? War in Ukraine? Somewhere else? Just in general? " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 1 minute ago, User said: .... You said: "you Americans now want war." I asked: "What do you mean, Americans want war? War in Ukraine? Somewhere else? Just in general? " .... I disagree. IMHO, you Americans have a sustainable society - but you borrow and spend too much. China holds too much American financial paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted April 24 Report Share Posted April 24 10 minutes ago, User said: .... You said: "you Americans now want war." ... Mais au Québec, que pensez-vous ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted April 24 Author Report Share Posted April 24 (edited) On 4/22/2024 at 9:59 AM, User said: Republicans and many of their constituents are demanding: Republicans failed to pass the border security bill they agreed to. - Senate Democrats and Republicans agreed on the assistance and border combined bill. - Then the Republicans reneged on the commitment - More than a half of House Republicans voted against the assistance to Ukraine. In fact, it is not just assistance but a commitment to assure security and territorial integrity given in exchange for abandoning the third largest stock of nukes at the time. These are the facts before our eyes. Anyone with eyes and a bit of intelligence will see it for what it is: the party is falling under an authoritarian spell, becoming a cult. It is not about the reality anymore, border or standing up to totalitarian thugs: it's about the loyalty to cult and its Idol. Mostly, and for some, only. So yours has to be a fantasy world or just lies. Edited April 24 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted April 24 Author Report Share Posted April 24 11 hours ago, August1991 said: terrifies me. Because you have no brain? That's just too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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