Scott75 Posted March 7 Report Posted March 7 On 2/25/2024 at 10:32 AM, Guest said: "The long-awaited counteroffensive last year failed. Russia has recaptured Avdiivka, its biggest war gain in nine months. President Volodymyr Zelensky has been forced to quietly acknowledge the new military reality" "The implication of Ukraine standing indefinitely on the defensive—even if it does so successfully—is that the territories currently occupied by Russia are lost. Russia will never agree at the negotiating table to surrender land that it has managed to hold on the battlefield." With a looming US election and the realities on the battleground, one can't help but wonder why one would want to delay the inevitable any longer. I suspect it's because the global military industrial complex is making a killing off of this war. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 7 Report Posted March 7 (edited) 23 hours ago, User said: LOL, ah yes, me quoting exactly what you said repeatedly is a "ubiquitous smoke-screen!" Actually quoting what I said is fine. Making up what I'm saying is your problem. When you try to make the debate about what you want my point to be, rather than what I'm telling you it is, you're just arguing with yourself. On 3/5/2025 at 11:31 AM, User said: You tried to claim it was a substitute for any other security guarantees. Can you provide the quote where I said that? No, because It doesn't exist. Even when you're engaging in these useless word games, you're still making shit up. 🤡👌 23 hours ago, User said: Just like Taiwan, we have an economic reason to see that they stay independent and we have no formal relationship with them or formal military obligation to them... but everyone knows we are essentially backing them. "Backing them" doesn't mean the US will sail the 7th fleet into the Straits of Taiwan and support them in the event of an invasion. No, what's really stopping China from invading is that taking an armed-to-the-teeth mountain fortress with 1,000,000 reservists via amphibious assault would be a bloodbath - juice not worth the squeeze. 23 hours ago, User said: Even now, you repeatedly avoid the actual point I am making here, that Trumps withdrawal of support was completely in response to Zelensky's public comments. I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that it's deluded MAGA clownworld nonsense. As expected, and as we're seeing, everything Trump has done thus far has weakened Ukraine's position and strengthened Russia's. That's the reality. That's a fact, and you're left coping and rationalizing about how Trump "just wants peace". You sound just like Nationalist now. 🤣 Edited March 7 by Moonbox 1 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 7 Report Posted March 7 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: Actually quoting what I said is fine. Making up what I'm saying is your problem. When you try to make the debate about what you want my point to be, rather than what I'm telling you it is, you're just arguing with yourself. Where did I make up what you said? 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: Can you provide the quote where I said that? No, because It doesn't exist. Even when you're engaging in these useless word games, you're still making shit up. "The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees is a funny magic trick that Republicans are trying to convince the world of. " 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: "Backing them" doesn't mean the US will sail the 7th fleet into the Straits of Taiwan and support them in the event of an invasion. No, what's really stopping China from invading is that taking an armed-to-the-teeth mountain fortress with 1,000,000 reservists via amphibious assault would be a bloodbath - juice not worth the squeeze. It doesn't mean anything for certain, that is the point, we are backing them though. They are armed to the teeth with the support we give them. The US is quietly arming Taiwan to the teeth https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67282107 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that it's deluded MAGA clownworld nonsense. How so? 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: As expected, and as we're seeing, everything Trump has done thus far has weakened Ukraine's position and strengthened Russia's. That's the reality. That's a fact, and you're left coping and rationalizing about how Trump "just wants peace". You sound just like Nationalist now. You need to pay more attention. That is neither the reality, nor the fact. Trying to enter into an economic agreement with Ukraine makes them stronger, not weaker. Trying to secure peace, ends the bloodshed, that makes Ukraine stronger, not weaker. Working with allies to provide security makes Ukraine stronger not weaker. Nevermind, Trump is not threatening Russia as well. Quote
Scott75 Posted March 8 Report Posted March 8 3 hours ago, User said: Trying to secure peace, ends the bloodshed, that makes Ukraine stronger, not weaker. Working with allies to provide security makes Ukraine stronger not weaker. I definitely agree with those statements. As Trump said in February when Ukraine protested not being invited to the U.S. meeting with Russian official in Saudi Arabia: ** “Ukraine, Europe in a broad sense – and this includes the European Union, Turkey, and the UK – should be involved in conversations and the development of the necessary security guarantees with America regarding the fate of our part of the world,” Zelensky said. Trump brushed off Zelensky’s concerns. “I’m very disappointed, I hear that they’re upset about not having a seat,” the president noted nonchalantly. “Today I heard, oh, well, we weren’t invited. Well, you’ve had a seat for three years, and a long time before that... You should have never started it. You could have made a deal,” Trump said. ** Source: https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47380 Quote
Scott75 Posted March 8 Report Posted March 8 Interesting article I just finished reading from a substacker I've come to respect: SITREP 3/7/25: EU's Mega-Billion Bid for Ukraine Flops Again, as Trump's Erratic Messaging Dissipates 'Peace' Momentum | Simplicius Quote
Moonbox Posted March 9 Report Posted March 9 On 3/7/2025 at 3:40 PM, User said: "The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees is a funny magic trick that Republicans are trying to convince the world of. " Where did I say it was a substitute for "any other" security guarantees, as you claimed? I can play these retarded word-games too. On 3/7/2025 at 3:40 PM, User said: It doesn't mean anything for certain, that is the point, we are backing them though. They are armed to the teeth with the support we give them. Like the US was arming Ukraine prior to Putin's invasion (or rather Zelensky starting the war, according to Trump LOL). The point is, that "backing them" can mean anything, and it's not a security guarantee. On 3/7/2025 at 3:40 PM, User said: Trying to enter into an economic agreement with Ukraine makes them stronger, not weaker. Trying to secure peace, ends the bloodshed, that makes Ukraine stronger, not weaker. Working with allies to provide security makes Ukraine stronger not weaker. There's those farcical mental gymnastics again. I don't even know how you can take yourself seriously saying this shit. Halting military aid to Ukraine only makes Ukraine weaker, and Russia stronger. Those are facts. That you're trying to argue otherwise is absolutely pathetic, and it further highlights why nobody can take you seriously. 🙃 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 9 Report Posted March 9 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: Where did I say it was a substitute for "any other" security guarantees, as you claimed? I can play these retarded word-games too. No, you still can't back up what you said, its just that you have drug your obfuscation out for so long now, you want to continue to do that this way. So... where was this what Republicans were trying to convince the world of? ""The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees is a funny magic trick that Republicans are trying to convince the world of. " 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: Like the US was arming Ukraine prior to Putin's invasion (or rather Zelensky starting the war, according to Trump LOL). The point is, that "backing them" can mean anything, and it's not a security guarantee. It certainly is a form of one. 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: There's those farcical mental gymnastics again. I don't even know how you can take yourself seriously saying this shit. Halting military aid to Ukraine only makes Ukraine weaker, and Russia stronger. Those are facts. That you're trying to argue otherwise is absolutely pathetic, and it further highlights why nobody can take you seriously. Zelensky should have thought of that before he announced to the world he had continued American support to keep fighting this war all year long when he knew that was not what Trump wanted. The eventual goal of peace makes Ukraine stronger. Your issue isn't me, it is your bad arguments. Work on those more. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 (edited) On 3/9/2025 at 1:10 PM, User said: No, you still can't back up what you said, its just that you have drug your obfuscation out for so long now, you want to continue to do that this way. So... where was this what Republicans were trying to convince the world of? That's the funny part. I haven't dug in at all. While you've been mewling about goalpost shifting, my point has been clear all along. Mineral Rights aren't security guarantees, and it's retarded to pretend they are. Like the deluded muppet you are, however, as long as Trump is saying something, you'll try and warp reality around yourself to square it up in your brain. On 3/9/2025 at 1:10 PM, User said: Zelensky should have thought of that before he announced to the world he had continued American support to keep fighting this war all year long when he knew that was not what Trump wanted. What Trump wants is the problem - which is to help his buddy Putin. Everything he's said and done has been to help Putin, and make things harder for Ukraine. Those are facts. On 3/9/2025 at 1:10 PM, User said: The eventual goal of peace makes Ukraine stronger. Yeah, which Trump apparently accomplishes by making Ukraine weaker. GREAT LOGIC! On 3/9/2025 at 1:10 PM, User said: Your issue isn't me, it is your bad arguments. Work on those more. See above. 🤡🤡🤡 Edited March 10 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 36 minutes ago, Moonbox said: That's the funny part. I haven't dug in at all. While you've been mewling about goalpost shifting, my point has been clear all along. Mineral Rights aren't security guarantees, and it's retarded to pretend they are. Nope, you said: "The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees is a funny magic trick that Republicans are trying to convince the world of. " 37 minutes ago, Moonbox said: What Trump wants is the problem - which is to help his buddy Putin. Everything he's said and done has been to help Putin, and make things harder for Ukraine. Those are facts. That is your made up thing. That is not what Trump wants, the facts do not support that at all. 39 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Yeah, which Trump apparently accomplishes by making Ukraine weaker. GREAT LOGIC! No, just facts. The final outcome makes Ukraine stronger. 40 minutes ago, Moonbox said: See above. I did. See above. Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 Winning may be defined differently for the two sides. Ukraine is achieving something highly significant every day any part of its territory stays free of Russian tyranny, and the survival of any Ukrainian resistance anywhere will ultimately doom Russia to defeat. Ukrainians aren’t going to give up on the idea of an independent nation when they know how awful rule from Moscow is. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 20 hours ago, User said: Nope, you said: "The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees is a funny magic trick that Republicans are trying to convince the world of. " Yes, I know what I said, so where's the obfuscation? That's your playbook! We're still waiting for an actual argument against the above, beyond just repeating Trump's foolish claims. 20 hours ago, User said: No, just facts. The final outcome makes Ukraine stronger. No, that's just MAGA clownworld logic. What you're trying to make people believe is that drastically weakening Ukraine's fighting position by freezing aid, and handing Putin a massive propaganda edge with his retarded comments about Zelensky being a dictator and starting the war, Trump is somehow paving the path for a stronger Ukraine. What you're saying is absolutely retarded. 🤡 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 4 minutes ago, Moonbox said: We're still waiting for an actual argument against the above, beyond just repeating Trump's foolish claims. Waiting? This entire stupid discussion so far has been you refusing to admit you were wrong and trying in vain to misdirect, change the subject, make bad arguments, or just obfuscate like you are doing now. 5 minutes ago, Moonbox said: No, that's just MAGA clownworld logic. No, it is just a factual observation that I already pointed out. You ignored. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 10 minutes ago, User said: This entire stupid discussion so far has been you refusing to admit you were wrong Wrong about what!?!? 🤣 The fact that a mineral deal isn't a security guarantee? 22 minutes ago, User said: No, it is just a factual observation that I already pointed out. You ignored. I'm not ignoring what you're saying. I'm laughing at it. This "factual observation" you're trotting out in front of us is anything but. The final outcome of a peace deal could make Ukraine stronger, or it could be forcing Ukraine to roll over and let Putin get away with everything he's done. It could be something in between, but calling it "factual observation", or assuming it as a given, is as ridiculous as everything else that the MAGA donkeys try to rationalize. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: Wrong about what!?!? 🤣 The fact that a mineral deal isn't a security guarantee? "The idea that American "mineral rights" somehow substitute for actually meaningful security guarantees is a funny magic trick that Republicans are trying to convince the world of. " 1 hour ago, Moonbox said: I'm not ignoring what you're saying. Yes, you clearly are ignoring it. Here is what I said: "Trying to enter into an economic agreement with Ukraine makes them stronger, not weaker. Trying to secure peace, ends the bloodshed, that makes Ukraine stronger, not weaker. Working with allies to provide security makes Ukraine stronger not weaker. " So when you respond saying: "The final outcome of a peace deal could make Ukraine stronger" It clearly shows you are not bothering to respond to what I actually said at all. Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 On 3/7/2025 at 8:36 PM, Scott75 said: “Today I heard, oh, well, we weren’t invited. Well, you’ve had a seat for three years, and a long time before that... You should have never started it. You could have made a deal,” Trump said. Never have started it? What??? How could any Ukrainian trust a balloon who would come out with flat-out falsehoods like that? Quote
Scott75 Posted March 12 Report Posted March 12 (edited) 4 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: On 3/7/2025 at 6:06 PM, Scott75 said: “Today I heard, oh, well, we weren’t invited. Well, you’ve had a seat for three years, and a long time before that... You should have never started it. You could have made a deal,” Trump said. ** Source: https://www.kyivpost.com/post/47380 Never have started it? That's right. Former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud points out how Ukraine's decision to attack the rebel Donbass Republics in Ukraine was the last straw for Putin in an article he wrote shortly after Russia's military operation in Ukraine began. It can be seen here: https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/ Quoting from it: ** On February 17 [2022], President Joe Biden announces that Russia will attack Ukraine in the coming days. How does he know? Mystery… But since the 16th, the artillery shelling of the populations of Donbass has increased dramatically, as shown by the daily reports of OSCE observers. Naturally, neither the media, nor the European Union, nor NATO, nor any Western government reacts and intervenes. We will say later that this is Russian disinformation. In fact, it seems that the European Union and some countries purposely glossed over the massacre of the people of Donbass, knowing that it would provoke Russian intervention. [snip] In fact, as early as February 16, Joe Biden knows that the Ukrainians began to shell the civilian populations of Donbass, putting Vladimir Putin in front of a difficult choice: to help Donbass militarily and create an international problem or to sit idle and watch Russian speakers from the Donbass being run over. If he decides to intervene, Vladimir Putin can invoke the international obligation of “ Responsibility To Protect ” (R2P). But he knows that whatever its nature or scale, the intervention will trigger a shower of sanctions. Therefore, whether its intervention is limited to the Donbass or whether it goes further to put pressure on the West for the status of Ukraine, the price to be paid will be the same. This is what he explains in his speech on February 21. That day, he acceded to the request of the Duma and recognized the independence of the two Republics of Donbass and, in the process, he signed treaties of friendship and assistance with them. The Ukrainian artillery bombardments on the populations of Donbass continued and, on February 23, the two Republics requested military aid from Russia. On the 24th, Vladimir Putin invokes Article 51 of the United Nations Charter which provides for mutual military assistance within the framework of a defensive alliance. In order to make the Russian intervention totally illegal in the eyes of the public we deliberately obscure the fact that the war actually started on February 16th. The Ukrainian army was preparing to attack the Donbass as early as 2021, as certain Russian and European intelligence services were well aware… The lawyers will judge. ** Edited March 12 by Scott75 Quote
User Posted March 12 Report Posted March 12 16 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Never have started it? What??? How could any Ukrainian trust a balloon who would come out with flat-out falsehoods like that? He doesn't have to trust anything more than if he wants US help, then he needs to play ball with US demands. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 12 Report Posted March 12 22 hours ago, User said: "Trying to enter into an economic agreement with Ukraine makes them stronger, not weaker. In a vacuum, and if it's actually beneficial for Ukraine. Trump's first offer on this deal was extortive and would have ensured their poverty. Regardless, none of it actually matters if they're getting rolled by the Russians and they're ceding large swathes of territory for it. 22 hours ago, User said: Trying to secure peace, ends the bloodshed, that makes Ukraine stronger, not weaker. Not if it's a capitulation to Russia, or if like 2014, it's just a temporary cessation that leads to Russia regrouping and trying again in a few years. As we know, nothing Vladimir Putin signs is worth the paper it's signed on. Donald Trump is doing a good job convincing the world the same holds for the USA! 22 hours ago, User said: Working with allies to provide security makes Ukraine stronger not weaker. " You mean passing the buck on allies, who will actually provide the security guarantees? 🙄 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 12 Report Posted March 12 23 minutes ago, Moonbox said: In a vacuum, and if it's actually beneficial for Ukraine. Trump's first offer on this deal was extortive and would have ensured their poverty. Regardless, none of it actually matters if they're getting rolled by the Russians and they're ceding large swathes of territory for it. There is not any if to it. That is the whole point of it. You guys act like Ukraine has some 500 billion dollar mineral vault full of minerals and this deal is for the US to take half. No, the deal is about helping Ukraine get the minerals and then they can use that money to help rebuild their nation and economy. That doesn't make someone poor. The Russians already had Crimea, already had large swathes of territory before this invasion in the Donbas. That was already done. Nothing is being ceded, that land has already been taken. 26 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Not if it's a capitulation to Russia, or if like 2014, it's just a temporary cessation that leads to Russia regrouping and trying again in a few years. As we know, nothing Vladimir Putin signs is worth the paper it's signed on. Donald Trump is doing a good job convincing the world the same holds for the USA! It doesn't matter what you want to call it, that doesn't change the facts, that if Ukraine is no longer engaged in a bloody daily grind to their slow demise... they are stronger. 28 minutes ago, Moonbox said: You mean passing the buck on allies, who will actually provide the security guarantees? Passing the buck? It is not ours to pass. There is no buck. Ukraine is not owed, entitled to, or privy to any military alliance or security guarantees now or before now. Either way... this has nothing to do with the fact that working with allies to ensure there are security guarantees does in fact make Ukraine stronger. Are you more concerned with Ukraine actually being stronger or just hating Trump and America? Quote
-TSS- Posted March 12 Report Posted March 12 There is still some strange persisting idea in some people's minds that if you are pro-Russian you must be a leftist. Something to do with the 80's mindset even though these days it is the leftists who call everybody who disagrees with them as Putinists. Btw calling people Putinists has become like calling people fascists or racists, completely useless abuses which have lost their meaning due to overuse. However, there can be both right-wing and left-wing people who are pro-Russian. That is actually being Russophile. For Russophiles the existing societal system has only instrumental value be it the Czar, the communists or Putin. The most important thing for Russophiles is that the interests of Russia comes first and whichever political at any given time serves the Russian interests best is used but is discarded if need be. Russophiles, unless they are Russians themselves, is about the lowest form of human life. Our parliament in Finland passed the NATO-application by votes 184-7. I think that is fairly accurate proportion of people in our country how many people are Russophiles how many most definitely are not. Quote
Scott75 Posted March 13 Report Posted March 13 1 hour ago, -TSS- said: Russophiles, unless they are Russians themselves, is about the lowest form of human life. What draws you to that conclusion? For my part, I have no desire to live in Russia, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate Russia's motivations for starting its military operation in Ukraine. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 20 Report Posted March 20 On 3/12/2025 at 9:38 PM, Scott75 said: What draws you to that conclusion? For my part, I have no desire to live in Russia, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate Russia's motivations for starting its military operation in Ukraine. Putin's motivation for starting the war is revanchism. His justification for it is batshit and utter nonsense, and only uneducated rubes who know SFA all about history believe a word of it. On 3/12/2025 at 7:59 PM, -TSS- said: Russophiles, unless they are Russians themselves, is about the lowest form of human life. Right? Imagine admiring a servile, futile donkey-people that despite all material advantages can't drag their useless existences into even the 20th century, and still live like serfs from the 1700's. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Scott75 Posted March 20 Report Posted March 20 53 minutes ago, Moonbox said: On 3/12/2025 at 7:38 PM, Scott75 said: What draws you to that conclusion? For my part, I have no desire to live in Russia, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate Russia's motivations for starting its military operation in Ukraine. Putin's motivation for starting the war is revanchism. Utter nonsense. For almost 2 decades, Russia has made it clear that it would not tolerate Ukraine becoming a part of NATO. Professor John Mearsheimer predicted that Ukraine would get wrecked due to western policies way back in 2015. Business Insider actually wrote an article pointing this out 2 weeks ago. It can be seen here: https://www.businesstoday.in/world/us/story/ukraine-going-to-be-wrecked-after-zelenskyy-trump-spat-john-mearsheimers-2015-prediction-goes-viral-466448-2025-03-03 As to the final straw for Russia, I'm pretty sure that it was Ukraine's renewed assault on the Donbass Republics. To date, I know of only a single writer who lays out the evidence for this in a clear and concise manner, former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud. The article where he does so can be seen here: https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/ 1 Quote
Nationalist Posted March 20 Report Posted March 20 On 3/7/2025 at 2:14 PM, Moonbox said: Actually quoting what I said is fine. Making up what I'm saying is your problem. When you try to make the debate about what you want my point to be, rather than what I'm telling you it is, you're just arguing with yourself. Can you provide the quote where I said that? No, because It doesn't exist. Even when you're engaging in these useless word games, you're still making shit up. 🤡👌 "Backing them" doesn't mean the US will sail the 7th fleet into the Straits of Taiwan and support them in the event of an invasion. No, what's really stopping China from invading is that taking an armed-to-the-teeth mountain fortress with 1,000,000 reservists via amphibious assault would be a bloodbath - juice not worth the squeeze. I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that it's deluded MAGA clownworld nonsense. As expected, and as we're seeing, everything Trump has done thus far has weakened Ukraine's position and strengthened Russia's. That's the reality. That's a fact, and you're left coping and rationalizing about how Trump "just wants peace". You sound just like Nationalist now. 🤣 Ahhh...so ya don't like having your quotes taken out of context. What a surprise.. I'd just like to take this opportunity to say to all the war-hawks here... TOLD YA SO. ROFLMAO! too sweet. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
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