Canadian university vending machine error reveals use of facial recognition without permission or warning

[CdnFox]

54 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. So the cops go a judge and say "there was a random murder at location X at 4 AM.  Can we please get the telco to send us all mobile devices pinging in the area and distance from the three towers located closest by" ?   It was early morning so there weren't many people out.  The judge approves and the cops analyze the data and find the man's phone stopped moving at a certain time in the morning, just as 3 devices were pinged moving on the road past him.  The telco is able to determine the names of the owners of the phone from digital records.  An arrest is made. 
 

Did the telco advise the person that their use of the phone may be recorded?  Yup.  

Now lets go a step further . The telco starts recording all calls the person makes without telling them and then starts using key word searches to find terms of interest. The software hears something about a 'bomb' and alerts the police to investigate the person.

Is that ok?

Go a step further - they do the same thing but a private investigator pays them to search phone conversations from one person because the wife thinks he might be cheating. They sell the transcripts of some calls that might be relevant to the PI. 

Still fair?

At what point do they need to tell you they're collecting data? At what point should they be prevented from selling that data?

As a left winger i get that you do not hold any love for privacy or the idea of 'personal information' rights but it is absolutely critical to a free society.

[herbie]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Occam's razor simply says that generally speaking the most simple answer

That somebody f*cked up.
Like what is the benefit to the college to pay extra to use facial recognition on a vending machine?

[eyeball]

16 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Not sure what laws could do to stop this.

How about technology, what's on the market or being developed in the way of wearable counter-surveillance equipment?

I guess there are passive things like shielded wallets tob prevent readers from accessing information on your credit cards.

I'm thinking something more aggressive but I suppose a shield that can prevent a camera from seeing you or making out your face is still sci-fi, not to mention a provocation in some jurisdictions.

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, herbie said:

That somebody f*cked up.
Like what is the benefit to the college to pay extra to use facial recognition on a vending machine?

I literally already told you.  They can sell more goods if they track people more.  And it wont' be the universities that own the machines - they'll have a contract to allow them to be placed there either at a set fee or a percentage of the earnings. The machines will still be owned and operated privately.

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  Yes that's good.  It was obtained by a warrant I assume, via the judge, just like any evidence and search/seizure.

1. Ok then, here's your prescription for monitoring for violent crime:

Permanent geo synchronous satellite presence, with high powered digital cameras above cities.  They are run by an independent agency, funded by government whose only role is to turn over data upon subpoena.

A violent crime occurs, the prosecutor partitions the judge and turns footage over to investigators.  Say.. sky footage for 1 km around the occurrence of the crime.

 

[CdnFox]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok then, here's your prescription for monitoring for violent crime:

Permanent geo synchronous satellite presence, with high powered digital cameras above cities.  They are run by an independent agency, funded by government whose only role is to turn over data upon subpoena.

A violent crime occurs, the prosecutor partitions the judge and turns footage over to investigators.  Say.. sky footage for 1 km around the occurrence of the crime.

 

why bother with all of that?  Anyone caught out in the street without an authorized pass and traving directly to and from where they've been authorized to go is shot.

i Guess it's all about how much freedom you think we should have.

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, CdnFox said:

First - that's not occam's razor.  

Second - the data can be very valuable.  In simple terms if you knew that based on facial recognition 60 percent of the people who come up to the machine are women you could choose your products to favor women and the placment of those objects in the machine as well to encourage maximum buying. You could tell how many people looked and decided to buy or not and adjust.

Get a little more 'creepy' and you can start to tell what Jeramy buys most, or which machines on campus he's at most or the like and start getting into patterning to improve sales with top customers etc  You might even share that info between devices on and off campus.

I'm trying to figure out why I should care about this.  Machines and stores wanting to find merchandise I'd be more likely to like and buy doesn't sound like a nightmare.

[I am Groot]

49 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

why bother with all of that?  Anyone caught out in the street without an authorized pass and traving directly to and from where they've been authorized to go is shot.

You realize that analogy is ridiculous, right?

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I'm trying to figure out why I should care about this.  Machines and stores wanting to find merchandise I'd be more likely to like and buy doesn't sound like a nightmare.

where does it end and where is it a concern for you? Should they be allowed to use your phone apps to track everywhere you go during the day? Should others be able to buy your information without your knowledge?

If they get a funny pic of you picking your nose or something can the post it to the internet without your consent?

What about your other personal info? What if they get a pic of you wearing a hat or pin from a group they don't like and post it and your name out there?

If you don't care about your privacy when it's not too late, then its too late when it is too late

 

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You realize that analogy is ridiculous, right?

Focus on the discussion with Graham.   He's articulated an actual thought of where freedom and technology intersect, that he trusts a judge to arbitrate the decision to be made.

While I think that that opens a lot of questions, it means that some might be satisfied with CONDITIONAL surveillance, if there's judicial oversight.

The other conversation won't be going anywhere.

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You realize that analogy is ridiculous, right?

Yes, it's taking it to an extreme.  Sometimes for people to see that THEIR argument is ridiculous you need to expand it a bit so that it becomes more obvious to them.

Although as rediculous as it may seem to us - it's happened in places where the right to privacy and freedoms were not taken seriously. So it's not as frivolous as it seems either.  "let me see your papers" is a thing. We shouldn't let it be a thing again.

[I am Groot]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

where does it end and where is it a concern for you? Should they be allowed to use your phone apps to track everywhere you go during the day?

Google already does that. Not only does it know where I go it knows whether I'm in the front of my house or the back of my house. Once a month it sends me a little map of where I've gone during the previous thirty days. Kind of nifty. I'm pretty sure my cell phone provider tracks all this, too. Google says it does not share your private tracking information nor allow app developers to do it.

Where would it concern me? If that information was widely available, I guess. Or if I was doing something I didn't want tracked and couldn't turn it off (I do know how to do that)

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

Should others be able to buy your information without your knowledge?

I don't know. I think it's situational. For example, if I go to the Best Buy website to look for phones and then leave, I'm going to start seeing ads for phones, and not just any phones, but the one I've been looking at when I go to other websites. If I go to Mazda's website the same thing happens. That doesn't particularly bother me, but I know it's all automated.

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

If they get a funny pic of you picking your nose or something can the post it to the internet without your consent?

If it's in a public places with no expectation of privacy they can already do that. And btw, I have cameras around my house, including a few of them that give me views of the street out front. Never seen anything I'd want to post anywhere except the video of the crazy lady who came knocking on my door one day (I didn't answer).

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

What about your other personal info? What if they get a pic of you wearing a hat or pin from a group they don't like and post it and your name out there?

I'm not really cancelable. But again, anything you do in public is fair game according to present law. And everyone has a camera on them at all times.

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

If you don't care about your privacy when it's not too late, then its too late when it is too late

I'm generally in favour of risk management, but my assessment doesn't show any particular danger to me at this time.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Google already does that.

And they tell you in their service agreement.

I'm kind of getting tired of repeating this over and over. Listen carefully - if they TELL you they do it and YOU AGREE that's once thing - if they DON'T TELL YOU and they do it, and they take pictures of you, or track your movements etc then that's NOT ok.

Until you get that very basic starting point straight in your mind there's not going to be any point discussing it.

Quote

I don't know. I think it's situational

Well you better think about the 'situations' then. In the google case you mentioned they don't know 'who' looked at those products, they just know that computer abc did.  Now what if they took a picture of you while you were looking at those phones and sent your photo, name and current info to a local phone salesman who knocks on your door?

 

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

I'm generally in favour of risk management, but my assessment doesn't show any particular danger to me at this time.

It'll be too late to complain when you do.

 

[herbie]

Too many conspiracy theories from watching TV.

They get royalties from CBS so their FBI shows can say we tracked him in 3/10ths of a second buying a Coffee Crisp at a Canadian university. Grab your guns and let's roll !
and people will buy it like they do the CIA satellites that can look up your skirt and see what brand of canned beans are in your basement storeroom.

Coming 2025: NCIS Victoria, because Esquimalt is too hard for Amricans to pronounce. Gunning down evildoers running renegade quinoa growing operation on Saltspring Island. NCIS jurisdiction because land owned by Vietnam riverboat deserter.

 

Edited February 26, 2024 by herbie