Vicious: Martin & Hargrove

[PocketRocket]

Hargrove is, in the words of Foghorn Leghorn, "a loud-mouthed schnook".

I don't doubt that Martin could well have put Buzz up to this, if he wasn't too frazzled at this point to think of it.

Equally, I can see Buzz just doing this on his own.

Either way, I don't think it'll have that much effect.

People are sick of hearing Hargrove's rants all over the media. Many simply put their brains on "ignore" whenever Buzz speaks. Can't blame them.

Ironically, this sort of behaviour is making Martin look like the "angry, scary guy" that he's been trying to make Harper out to be these past months.

Harper, for his part, has been comporting himself remarkably well over the course of the campaign.

I'm more than a bit impressed.

[fellowtraveller]

I've never seen CAW ads in a Western Newspaper before.

[August1991]

I don't think Martin had to say anything to Hargrove. Martin's staff know very well what Hargrove is capable of. Once the decision was made that Martin would appear on stage with Hargrove in front of the cameras, the rest was inevitable. God alone knew what precise phrase would come out of Hargrove's mouth but Herle and the rest knew what the effect would be.

This same crew got ministers in June 2004 to run up to Harper and physically give Harper letters with embarrassing questions. They get other people to do the dirty.

To me the most likely take-home message for voters was seeing Martin's buddy say Quebecers should vote for the BQ. To me, that's the single impression most likely to grab a casual observer.

But maybe, as an Albertan, I don't recognize the impact that calling someone an "Albertan" elsewhere in Canada would have. Is it really such a vicious thing to say about someone?

-k

For this one kimmy, you have to put yourself in the body of someone in Ontario or the Maritimes who doesn't pay much attention to politics, scans the headlines and catches the TV news in between washing the dishes and walking the dog.

----

Look, I don't know about this at all. I have no idea if this was "planned" or if it will hurt or help the Liberals. Maybe Kimmy is right and Eastern English-Canadians will see the obvious contradiction of Hargrove's comments, or at least the line about voting BQ to stop the Tories. They may even see the truly insulting idea that someone from Alberta is unable to understand Canada.

[Black Dog]

The real scandal here is that Harper isn't from Alberta at all, but a born and bred Torontonian. I am shocked and appalled that Hargove would lay responsibility for Harper at Alberta's doorstep.

[Rovik]

It just occurred to me that Buzz Hargrove may be a Conservative plant, a mole in the Liberal machine.

How else can this stuff be explained?

Surely some union members must be realizing that their NDP vote is wasted, their Liberal vote means endorsing the increasingly irrelevant and embarassing Hargrove. What does that leave them?

To say a vote is a wasted vote is insulting to our democractic system and the electorate as whole. Doesn't matter who you vote for, a vote is a citizen's right in a democratic society like Canada and there is never such thing as a wasted vote.

And to your assertion that a NDP is wasted vote; this is typical of Conservative and Liberal's scare tactics to stop people from voting NDP. I believe that the NDP is a best alternative to the corrupt Liberals and the right wing agenda of the Conservatives.

[kimmy]

Look, I don't know about this at all. I have no idea if this was "planned" or if it will hurt or help the Liberals. Maybe Kimmy is right and Eastern English-Canadians will see the obvious contradiction of Hargrove's comments, or at least the line about voting BQ to stop the Tories. They may even see the truly insulting idea that someone from Alberta is unable to understand Canada.

Buzz was just on my radio, on the "Rutherford" show, defending his comments. I normally can't be bothered to listen to Rutherford and his ilk, but it's so close to election time and my usual radio station was playing an "Our Lady Peace" song, so I was flipping channels. And there was Buzz.

Buzz denies insulting Albertans. He said he worked in Alberta for a while, some of his best friends are Albertans... you know. The same sort of stuff eureka says before saying "too bad they are such ignorami." Buzz stood by his comments, though. He argues that there really are different values across the country. Buzz also contends that the National Citizens Coalition is a "secret society". Buzz denied telling Quebecers to vote Bloc, denies calling Harper a separatist and says he meant that Harper is playing into the hands of separatists. Rutherford failed to challenge Hargrove on any of this, instead going off on the "Albertan" angle and the National Citizens Coalitions.

The caller response to Buzz has also focused entirely on the "Albertans have different values" angle. So I guess you were right and I was wrong, August. I thought the spectacle of "Mr Federalism" Paul Martin's buddy telling Quebecers to vote Bloc would be by far the most attention-grabbing aspect of this story, but apparently the playing of the "Alberta card" is what has grabbed people's attention.

-k

[fellowtraveller]

It just occurred to me that Buzz Hargrove may be a Conservative plant, a mole in the Liberal machine.

How else can this stuff be explained?

Surely some union members must be realizing that their NDP vote is wasted, their Liberal vote means endorsing the increasingly irrelevant and embarassing Hargrove. What does that leave them?

To say a vote is a wasted vote is insulting to our democractic system and the electorate as whole. Doesn't matter who you vote for, a vote is a citizen's right in a democratic society like Canada and there is never such thing as a wasted vote.

And to your assertion that a NDP is wasted vote; this is typical of Conservative and Liberal's scare tactics to stop people from voting NDP. I believe that the NDP is a best alternative to the corrupt Liberals and the right wing agenda of the Conservatives.

Fair enough.

I had fallen victim to Hargroves contention that it was wasted, that I should vote Liberal.

Vote for whomever you please, even if it is wasted on a party that cannot get out of the teens in public support in Canada. It looks possible that the NDP may do better than the Bloc this time though.

[shoop]

If the CPC and NDP can combine to breakthrough in Toronto the NDP could end up with more seats than the Liberals.

Honestly, I think the likelihood of the NDP doing better than the Liberals is higher than the likelihood of the NDP doing better than the Bloc. Although I don't see either happening at this point...

Fair enough.

I had fallen victim to Hargroves contention that it was wasted, that I should vote Liberal.

Vote for whomever you please, even if it is wasted on a party that cannot get out of the teens in public support in Canada. It looks possible that the NDP may do better than the Bloc this time though.

[Wilber]

Despite the saying all's fair in love and war, I really didn't think that extended to selling out your fellow countrymen.

A vote for the Bloc is a vote for Canada because everyone knows the real separatists are those nasty Albertans.

This from a party that claims to have a lock on protecting Confederation. This is sleaze on a new scale. It makes me want to puke and I'm not an Albertan. When it comes to national unity, Martin is scarier than Ducepe.

Is this bonehead recruiting for western separatist parties?

[Black Dog]

To say a vote is a wasted vote is insulting to our democractic system and the electorate as whole. Doesn't matter who you vote for, a vote is a citizen's right in a democratic society like Canada and there is never such thing as a wasted vote.

And to your assertion that a NDP is wasted vote; this is typical of Conservative and Liberal's scare tactics to stop people from voting NDP. I believe that the NDP is a best alternative to the corrupt Liberals and the right wing agenda of the Conservatives I suppose, technically, since parties get $1.75 for every vote they receive, no vote is truly wasted. But in terms of representation, every ballot cast for the second or third lace canduidate is wasted thanks to our electoral system, which ensures that even "majority"governments represent a minority of voters.

But I digresss.

[Wilber]

BD

We agree on something. There is no such thing as a wasted vote.

[shoop]

Martin is just desperate. Plain and simple.

He can see the writing on the wall and realizes he is headed towards an historic loss.

Quite sad really.

When the sad tale of Martin's pathetic leadership is told it will include his desperation ploys in the dying days of Campaign 2006. All of which will be judged to have been failures.

The two best examples of these failures include buddying up to buzz and the Pinochet ad.

When it comes to national unity, Martin is scarier than Ducepe.

Is this bonehead recruiting for western separatist parties?

[Hicksey]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it funny that whenever the Liberals think they have something to knock Harper down they end up making an apology for it?

Such as?

Besides, you just know Klein has an ace up his sleeve...waiting for the right moment to bring it out and send the Conservatives to ruin.

Naw, the conservatives have watched Martin et al fall apart every time Martin, or anyone connected to his campaign for that matter, opens their mouth and have learned just to muzzle Harper and let Martin be the one to self-destruct. First the two statements belittling Canadians by his aide, then the military ad, now this. Every time Martin steps out of the gate with a jab at Harper he ends up apologizing for it.

[betsy]

UPDATE

I saw Martin's campaign somewhere in Ontario (CTV)....and after the speech, reporters started asking questions.

I forgot exactly what the questions was, but it definitely pertained to Hargrove. It was one of the 3 questions asked right after his speech.

Martin started stuttering and my God, the very rapid eye-blinking as he was talking.

He neatly skirted questions and kept on hammering at Harper with women's right to choose and same-sex marriage (using Harper's response about court judges).

The anchorwoman who viewed the telecast looked aghast...she read Harper's quote word-for-word...and she said Martin clearly manipulated the statements of Harper.

[Hicksey]

It just occurred to me that Buzz Hargrove may be a Conservative plant, a mole in the Liberal machine.

How else can this stuff be explained?

Surely some union members must be realizing that their NDP vote is wasted, their Liberal vote means endorsing the increasingly irrelevant and embarassing Hargrove. What does that leave them?

To say a vote is a wasted vote is insulting to our democractic system and the electorate as whole. Doesn't matter who you vote for, a vote is a citizen's right in a democratic society like Canada and there is never such thing as a wasted vote.

And to your assertion that a NDP is wasted vote; this is typical of Conservative and Liberal's scare tactics to stop people from voting NDP. I believe that the NDP is a best alternative to the corrupt Liberals and the right wing agenda of the Conservatives.

As a staunch conservative I wouldn't even call a vote for the NDP a wasted vote. But I think that realistically that a vote for the NDP won't be a vote for our country's leader in my lifetime.

[fellowtraveller]

Honestly, I think the likelihood of the NDP doing better than the Liberals is higher than the likelihood of the NDP doing better than the Bloc. Although I don't see either happening at this point...

I'm speaking in terms of popular vote. The Bloc and NDP are pretty close right now. It's very unlikely IMO that the NDP will do better than 35 seats. The Bloc and Liberals will obviously do much better than that.

Libs and Cons fight for majorities. The NDP is, as always, relegated to a fight for survival - though in 2004 they had a real role for the first time on the national stage.

It is telling that they have not and will not translate that into any real increase in their popular vote, much less into a big bump in seats.

The NDP are praying for a minority, any minority, so they can have some relevance, influence and exposure. If the Cons win a majority, the NDP will be in very major trouble next election as the media will go back to the usual state of ignoring them for four years.

[August1991]

But in terms of representation, every ballot cast for the second or third lace canduidate is wasted thanks to our electoral system, which ensures that even "majority"governments represent a minority of voters.

But I digresss.

Digress? In a thread on this forum? Impossible!

Too bad all the Albertan NDP voters don't live in Edmonton:

"Canada is going to learn that Alberta is not all conservative and the Conservatives will learn that they can't take Albertans for granted."

Edmonton Sun

[Rovik]

As a staunch conservative I wouldn't even call a vote for the NDP a wasted vote. But I think that realistically that a vote for the NDP won't be a vote for our country's leader in my lifetime.

How old are you? 90? You can't predict such a thing. No one knows what the politcal landscape will be in 5. 10. 25. 50 years.

Who knows? Maybe even the Green Party may be a big player years fron now, one never knows.

August1991:

The NDP also has a chance in the Outremont district in Quebec. Now, I'm not saying it will happen and I'm sure Conservatives in Alberta and the Bloc in Quebec might say it will never happen, but there is a chance and no one can deny that.

And if it did happen, it would be quite something. Just imagine, a NDP seat in a sea of blue in Alberta (Again, I'm sure there are Conservatives here that will say it will never happen, but i say. "never say never.")

[Hicksey]

As a staunch conservative I wouldn't even call a vote for the NDP a wasted vote. But I think that realistically that a vote for the NDP won't be a vote for our country's leader in my lifetime.

How old are you? 90? You can't predict such a thing. No one knows what the politcal landscape will be in 5. 10. 25. 50 years.

Who knows? Maybe even the Green Party may be a big player years fron now, one never knows.

August1991:

The NDP also has a chance in the Outremont district in Quebec. Now, I'm not saying it will happen and I'm sure Conservatives in Alberta and the Bloc in Quebec might say it will never happen, but there is a chance and no one deny that.

And if it did happen, it would be quite something. Just imagine, a NDP seat in a sea of blue in Alberta (Again, I'm sure there are Conservatives here that will say it will never happen, but i say. "never say never."

I am 30. I personally think as long as the NDP stays as far left of center as they are, even though Canadians as a whole are slightly left of center, they will stay far from the mainstream and out of power. I don't know many people that enjoy being taxed. One doesn't vote for the NDP if they want to keep any significant part of their income. It's bad enough a middle class family gets to keep less than half their income now.

[fellowtraveller]

Just imagine, a NDP seat in a sea of blue in Alberta (Again, I'm sure there are Conservatives here that will say it will never happen, but i say. "never say never.")

The NDPs best shot is in Edmonton Strathcona, Rahim Jaffers seat.

Jaffers is the guy who got caught, or rather his campaign manager got caught, impersonating Jaffer on the radio.

Last time in 2004 the race was 3 way, it helps the NDP that the Liberals are weak this time.

Jaffer is a bit of a poster boy for the Cons: young, bilingual, handsome/photogenic and visible minority.

[Rovik]

I am 30. I personally think as long as the NDP stays as far left of center as they are, even though Canadians as a whole are slightly left of center, they will stay far from the mainstream and out of power. I don't know many people that enjoy being taxed. One doesn't vote for the NDP if they want to keep any significant part of their income. It's bad enough a middle class family gets to keep less than half their income now.

I don't believe that the NDP are as far left as you believe they are. Regarding taxes, the NDP hasn't pushed for new taxes this campaign, and NDP provincial govts. in Manitoba and Sask. have ran balanced budgets without big raising of taxes. I believe it's a scare tactic that non-NDP supporters will always use and the only way the NDP will ever beat this misleading rap would be to out-Conservative the Conservatives.

[Hicksey]

I am 30. I personally think as long as the NDP stays as far left of center as they are, even though Canadians as a whole are slightly left of center, they will stay far from the mainstream and out of power. I don't know many people that enjoy being taxed. One doesn't vote for the NDP if they want to keep any significant part of their income. It's bad enough a middle class family gets to keep less than half their income now.

I don't believe that the NDP are as far left as you believe they are. Regarding taxes, the NDP hasn't pushed for new taxes this campaign, and NDP provincial govts. in Manitoba and Sask. have ran balanced budgets without big raising of taxes. I believe it's a scare tactic that non-NDP supporters will always use and the only way the NDP will ever beat this misleading rap would be to out-Conservative the Conservatives.

Layton has said that his budget is but a down-payment on what is needed on many occasions. And so far economists are saying that there's no wiggle room in his budget. So if he is to lead, and achieve his goal, where does the money come from?

I'm sorry, but I think there comes a point where people need to do for themselves. I don't want to live in the Nanny State that's in Layton's dreams.

I think a government should empower people to do for themselves, not provide so they get used to not having to. And 9 times out of 10 we can find the services that leaders the likes of Layton want to provide cheaper and better in the private sector.

And lastly, I find Layton's culture of class warfare really tired.

[Hicksey]

I am 30. I personally think as long as the NDP stays as far left of center as they are, even though Canadians as a whole are slightly left of center, they will stay far from the mainstream and out of power. I don't know many people that enjoy being taxed. One doesn't vote for the NDP if they want to keep any significant part of their income. It's bad enough a middle class family gets to keep less than half their income now.

I don't believe that the NDP are as far left as you believe they are. Regarding taxes, the NDP hasn't pushed for new taxes this campaign, and NDP provincial govts. in Manitoba and Sask. have ran balanced budgets without big raising of taxes. I believe it's a scare tactic that non-NDP supporters will always use and the only way the NDP will ever beat this misleading rap would be to out-Conservative the Conservatives.

Layton has said that his budget is but a down-payment on what is needed on many occasions. And so far economists are saying that there's no wiggle room in his budget. So if he is to lead, and achieve his goal, where does the money come from?

I'm sorry, but I think there comes a point where people need to do for themselves. I don't want to live in the Nanny State that's in Layton's dreams.

I think a government should empower people to do for themselves, not provide so they get used to not having to. And 9 times out of 10 we can find the services that leaders the likes of Layton want to provide cheaper and better in the private sector.

And lastly, I find Layton's culture of class warfare really tired. Corporations do not pay tax, they pass it down to the consumer. Always have. Always will. All his idea of taxing big business will do is stifle their efforts to expand and create jobs. The government cannot run an economy. Business does. As soon as Layton figures that out (thats assuming he ever does) he will understand why his messages aren't hitting. The rest of us know it already. Those who do buy it are caught up in their resentment that some people are rich and they aren't, to which I reply that if they want to be rich--they can be, if they work for it.

[shoop]

The NDP will never form government so there is no reason for them to put forth a coherent economic plan. They obviously agree or they would have done so.

Layton has said that his budget is but a down-payment on what is needed on many occasions. And so far economists are saying that there's no wiggle room in his budget. So if he is to lead, and achieve his goal, where does the money come from?

I'm sorry, but I think there comes a point where people need to do for themselves. I don't want to live in the Nanny State that's in Layton's dreams.

[Hicksey]

The NDP will never form government so there is no reason for them to put forth a coherent economic plan. They obviously agree or they would have done so.

Layton has said that his budget is but a down-payment on what is needed on many occasions. And so far economists are saying that there's no wiggle room in his budget. So if he is to lead, and achieve his goal, where does the money come from?

I'm sorry, but I think there comes a point where people need to do for themselves. I don't want to live in the Nanny State that's in Layton's dreams.

They seem to think they did.

It looks to me like feel-goodism.