Should Harper begin fighting Dirty?

[SamStranger]

The Conservatives are in a commanding lead in all the polls. If the momentum stays they are guranteed a Minority Government. If the momentum begins to rise, we might even be fortunate enough to have a majority Conservative Government. But--- as we have seen in the past, debates can often make or break a party's chances.

So--- we all know that Martin and Layton, and Guiseppe will be teaming up on harper... how should Harper handle this?? Fight dirty or keep his cool? It sickens me how Layton went from being pro-conservative to being a "born again" Liberal by saying- "We cannot allow the tories to win a minority". So obviously he will team up with Martin to try to corner Stephen.

My advice to Stephen would to be firm and bold. Stick to the facts, and be confident. If Paul Martin loses we will be fortunate enough to never see his stupid money face again. I hope Layton loses seats.

Conservative Minority come january 23rd?

Conservative Majority come january 23rd?

Those are the only options, and their both fine by me.

[River_God]

The Conservatives have been fighting dirty since the last election. Harper is continually smearing Martin with by alleged crimes that Martin hasn't been found guilty of.

[PocketRocket]

Conservative Minority come january 23rd?

Conservative Majority come january 23rd?

And perhaps the moon will fall out of the sky

[tml12]

The Conservatives are in a commanding lead in all the polls. If the momentum stays they are guranteed a Minority Government. If the momentum begins to rise, we might even be fortunate enough to have a majority Conservative Government. But--- as we have seen in the past, debates can often make or break a party's chances.

So--- we all know that Martin and Layton, and Guiseppe will be teaming up on harper... how should Harper handle this?? Fight dirty or keep his cool? It sickens me how Layton went from being pro-conservative to being a "born again" Liberal by saying- "We cannot allow the tories to win a minority". So obviously he will team up with Martin to try to corner Stephen.

My advice to Stephen would to be firm and bold. Stick to the facts, and be confident. If Paul Martin loses we will be fortunate enough to never see his stupid money face again. I hope Layton loses seats.

Conservative Minority come january 23rd?

Conservative Majority come january 23rd?

Those are the only options, and their both fine by me.

I hope so!!!

[August1991]

Big fight tonight? Well, Sam, I guess so if you say so. Somehow the boxing metaphor is misleading.

The Conservatives have been fighting dirty since the last election. Harper is continually smearing Martin with by alleged crimes that Martin hasn't been found guilty of.

Ah, right. But River God, this is the court of politics not a court of law. Grow up and live with it.

----

Martin is in tight position going into this debate. Going on past record, chances are Martin will once again pull the ball away just before Harper tries to kick it.

Who do you blame? Lucy for lifting the ball or Charlie Brown for trying to kick it?

[River_God]

Big fight tonight? Well, Sam, I guess so if you say so. Somehow the boxing metaphor is misleading.

The Conservatives have been fighting dirty since the last election. Harper is continually smearing Martin with by alleged crimes that Martin hasn't been found guilty of.

Ah, right. But River God, this is the court of politics not a court of law. Grow up and live with it.

Are you admitting that the Conservative campaign depends on smearing Martin?

Are you admitting that the Conservative campaign can't stand on its own two feet?

[tml12]

Big fight tonight? Well, Sam, I guess so if you say so. Somehow the boxing metaphor is misleading.

The Conservatives have been fighting dirty since the last election. Harper is continually smearing Martin with by alleged crimes that Martin hasn't been found guilty of.

Ah, right. But River God, this is the court of politics not a court of law. Grow up and live with it.

Are you admitting that the Conservative campaign depends on smearing Martin?

Are you admitting that the Conservative campaign can't stand on its own two feet?

I think what he was saying his such is life in politics. Harper is defending himself from the Liberal propaganda attack machine.

The Conservative campaign is doing, considering they have not been behind in any poll this. Its the Liberals who can't stand up on two feel now.

[August1991]

Big fight tonight? Well, Sam, I guess so if you say so. Somehow the boxing metaphor is misleading.

The Conservatives have been fighting dirty since the last election. Harper is continually smearing Martin with by alleged crimes that Martin hasn't been found guilty of.

Ah, right. But River God, this is the court of politics not a court of law. Grow up and live with it.

Are you admitting that the Conservative campaign depends on smearing Martin?

Are you admitting that the Conservative campaign can't stand on its own two feet?

River, you refer to "alleged crimes that Martin hasn't been found guilty of". A court of law may not have found Martin guilty but the court of politics apparently has.

As to your claim about Harper smearing Martin, it seems to me that Warren Kinsella, Sheila Copps and John Gomery (to name a few) have done a good job of accusing Martin and/or other Liberals - without any need for Harper's help.

Indeed, other Liberals are now accusing Martin of the ultimate Liberal sin, being an incompetent politician:

Most Liberals declined to publicly acknowledge their leader is running a weak national campaign, but others, who did not want to be identified, said it has not exactly been brilliant; marked by mistakes and seriously damaged by the RCMP criminal investigation into income trusts.

Hill Times

[tml12]

Well you know what Chretien's probably saying...

"I will have a legacy of hatred and corruption...my nemesis Martin will have no legacy at all."

[Riverwind]

Indeed, other Liberals are now accusing Martin of the ultimate Liberal sin, being an incompetent politician:

I have argued many times that Martin can plausibly claim that he was not responsible for the the sponserhsip mess, however, the fact remains that the Liberal party organization in Quebec was taken over by crooks and the Liberal party needs to take responsibility for that. The party in fighting right now just shows that many people inside the party just don't get it - they seem to think that Martin's mistake was to make a big deal out of the scandal.

Just another reason why the Liberal party needs to be booted out of power.

[scribblet]

This could explain the rash of spamming and rhetoric. I'm still not counting my chickens though.

Apparently Ekos polling results are so "spectacular" that they are holding off releasing them for another day while they do another 500 interviews to confirm what they are hearing.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20060109...32/CPACTUALITES

translation from babblefish

The last daily survey of firm EKOS translates a so spectacular opening of the conservatives that the firm decided to wait this evening before revealing its results, in order to double his sample of 500 guarantors.

"Our data are if surprising that it would be irresponsible to reveal them at one time as critical as the paddle of the debate", explained to the Press the president of EKOS, Frank Graves.

If the guarantors repeat themselves today, one will be able to evoke the possibility of a majority preserving government, says it. "While waiting, the conservatives have at least the wind in the veils. Something is occurring, it is certain. What remains to be specified, it is the exact width of this increase."

more here: http://tinyurl.com/9pjr3

Results to be released tomorrow because of tonight's debate. So... do polls really effect people's opinions and the way they vote?

[Kula]

I don't think Harper has to do anything dirty, nor has he done anything dirty. The Liberal Party is dirty and all Harper has to do is keep saying it. All he's done is tell the truth.

I think a lot of you lefties are guilty of the same thing Paul Martin and the Liberals are guilty of...underestimating Stephen Harper and the Conservatives.

Kula

[Wilber]

Indeed, other Liberals are now accusing Martin of the ultimate Liberal sin, being an incompetent politician:

I have argued many times that Martin can plausibly claim that he was not responsible for the the sponserhsip mess, however, the fact remains that the Liberal party organization in Quebec was taken over by crooks and the Liberal party needs to take responsibility for that. The party in fighting right now just shows that many people inside the party just don't get it - they seem to think that Martin's mistake was to make a big deal out of the scandal.

Just another reason why the Liberal party needs to be booted out of power.

In the mid nineties a BC Premier ( Mike Harcourt) resigned because of a scandal in his party that was similar to Adscam (Bingogate). He had nothing to with it and it wasn't on his watch. No such ethics federally. Deny, deny and point the finger elsewhere. In most provincial elections, these guys would be gone in a heartbeat.

[scribblet]

Indeed, other Liberals are now accusing Martin of the ultimate Liberal sin, being an incompetent politician:

I have argued many times that Martin can plausibly claim that he was not responsible for the the sponserhsip mess, however, the fact remains that the Liberal party organization in Quebec was taken over by crooks and the Liberal party needs to take responsibility for that. The party in fighting right now just shows that many people inside the party just don't get it - they seem to think that Martin's mistake was to make a big deal out of the scandal.

Just another reason why the Liberal party needs to be booted out of power.

In the mid nineties a BC Premier ( Mike Harcourt) resigned because of a scandal in his party that was similar to Adscam (Bingogate). He had nothing to with it and it wasn't on his watch. No such ethics federally. Deny, deny and point the finger elsewhere. In most provincial elections, these guys would be gone in a heartbeat.

In many other western countries especially in Britain, the gov't wouldn't have survived such scandal and the MP's would have stepped down. IMHO if Martin and others had done this right after the first Gomery report, and called an election themselves they would have won another majority.

[fellowtraveller]

It sickens me how Layton went from being pro-conservative to being a "born again" Liberal by saying- "We cannot allow the tories to win a minority". So obviously he will team up with Martin to try to corner Stephen.

Obviously Layton would much rather have a LIberal minority than a Tory minority, and it has nothing to do with ideology.

Martin has proven over and over again that he will do pretty much anything to stay in power, I doubt Harper will be so malleable.

[scribblet]

POLL: CPC 37% - Libs 29% - NDP 15% - BQ 13% - Green 6% from a poll conducted by the Strategic counsel for CTV. Here is link to the story.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...jan08_060\

108/20060108?s_name=election2006

I think we are being saturated with polls, and do they sway political opinion? Maybe a new thread?

[betsy]

Stephen should be firm, focused and calm.

I expect Martin and Layton to really dump on him...he must anticipate any question that may arise, and be prepared for anything. I expect them to demonize him.

If he can, he should try to be always on the offensive....and since I expect Duceppe to still focus on dumping on Martin, Stephen should keep Martin busy being defensive.

He should always remind the people that between Layton and Martin, there's hardly any change.

[shoop]

I honestly don`t think Layton will go after Harper. I am saying this because of what Ed Broadbent said yesterday on Question Period. Broadbent was putting forth a positive message that the NDP is still relevant in this campaign. I don`t see why the NDP would change their playbook in a day`s time.

That is shrewd of them. At this point they need to go after the Liberals. The CPC will be government, so the more seats they can win in parliament the more effective they will be. If the NDP attacks the CPC it will only help the Liberals, not the NDP.　

[Leafless]

Big fight to-nite?

I don't think so.

It will be moderator controlled with more boring questions from Canadians pre-taped with the leaders not permitted to ask each other questions.

I can hardly wait NOT.

[shoop]

There will be a little more give and take, but you are probably right. Good for the Conservatives at this point.

Martin should try and go for broke, but how?

Big fight to-nite?

I don't think so.

It will be moderator controlled with more boring questions from Canadians pre-taped with the leaders not permitted to ask each other questions.

I can hardly wait NOT.

[fellowtraveller]

Harper may get a bit more emotional, since Martin scored a few points by jumping on Duceppe last time.

But he'll get emotional about an issue, not a response to another leader.

He knows that anything showing him as Angryman is a losing strategy.

[shoop]

Very good post. Angryman especially. Harper needs to come across as the soon-to-be Prime Minister that he is.

I thought Martin jumping on Duceppe was a pretty lame attempt at scoring that *knockout punch*. Slight spike in the polls but nothing lasting.

Harper can just do what he did last time and he will be fine. No need for histrionics or theatre. They don`t fit his personality so would hurt him rather than help him.

Harper may get a bit more emotional, since Martin scored a few points by jumping on Duceppe last time.

But he'll get emotional about an issue, not a response to another leader.

He knows that anything showing him as Angryman is a losing strategy.

[tml12]

It sickens me how Layton went from being pro-conservative to being a "born again" Liberal by saying- "We cannot allow the tories to win a minority". So obviously he will team up with Martin to try to corner Stephen.

Obviously Layton would much rather have a LIberal minority than a Tory minority, and it has nothing to do with ideology.

Martin has proven over and over again that he will do pretty much anything to stay in power, I doubt Harper will be so malleable.

True but, you know, Martin sacrificed his fiscal conservative dogmatism for an NDP budget (which I think helped A LOT...but I also am a fan of fiscal conservatism and corporate tax cuts...the curse of being a centrist )

The public will not want another election soon. I think the Conservatives will work with all three parties, even the Liberals. Keep in mind, Martin is more conservative than a lot of past Liberal PMs. It's not like a Harper minority would have to work with a socialist Liberal like Trudeau. I think Martin, who will get dumped if he loses anyway, will have nothing to lose while the Liberals go to IGA searching for a new leader.

I think a CPC minority could survive about 2 years...although I would not like to have a minority government around when the PQ likely will come to power again (the next election scheduled for around 2007 here in Quebec).

[shoop]

The public definitely won`t want another election soon.

It is still a big *IF* about Paul Martin leaving early. If he is man enough to see the writing on the wall and leave early than there will be a new leader by the fall. However *the board* probably won`t see things that way. Which means a long protracted Liberal party civil war. Giving the Conservatives that much more time to govern.

It is conventional wisdom that the PQ will win the next election, but I think Boisclair is seriously flawed and will face a really tough ride in that election. The way he handled the cocaine issue in the leadership campaign, i.e. flipping out on the journalists, will not fly in an election campaign.

True but, you know, Martin sacrificed his fiscal conservative dogmatism for an NDP budget (which I think helped A LOT...but I also am a fan of fiscal conservatism and corporate tax cuts...the curse of being a centrist )

The public will not want another election soon. I think the Conservatives will work with all three parties, even the Liberals. Keep in mind, Martin is more conservative than a lot of past Liberal PMs. It's not like a Harper minority would have to work with a socialist Liberal like Trudeau. I think Martin, who will get dumped if he loses anyway, will have nothing to lose while the Liberals go to IGA searching for a new leader.

I think a CPC minority could survive about 2 years...although I would not like to have a minority government around when the PQ likely will come to power again (the next election scheduled for around 2007 here in Quebec).

[tml12]

The public definitely won`t want another election soon.

It is still a big *IF* about Paul Martin leaving early. If he is man enough to see the writing on the wall and leave early than there will be a new leader by the fall. However *the board* probably won`t see things that way. Which means a long protracted Liberal party civil war. Giving the Conservatives that much more time to govern.

It is conventional wisdom that the PQ will win the next election, but I think Boisclair is seriously flawed and will face a really tough ride in that election. The way he handled the cocaine issue in the leadership campaign, i.e. flipping out on the journalists, will not fly in an election campaign.

True but, you know, Martin sacrificed his fiscal conservative dogmatism for an NDP budget (which I think helped A LOT...but I also am a fan of fiscal conservatism and corporate tax cuts...the curse of being a centrist )

The public will not want another election soon. I think the Conservatives will work with all three parties, even the Liberals. Keep in mind, Martin is more conservative than a lot of past Liberal PMs. It's not like a Harper minority would have to work with a socialist Liberal like Trudeau. I think Martin, who will get dumped if he loses anyway, will have nothing to lose while the Liberals go to IGA searching for a new leader.

I think a CPC minority could survive about 2 years...although I would not like to have a minority government around when the PQ likely will come to power again (the next election scheduled for around 2007 here in Quebec).

Agreed...agreed...agreed...well put Shoop!!!