Abolishing money would make us happy

[Gaétan]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

What (or more to the point one of many things) you seem not to understand is that people are involved.   They do not behave in some great, even, reasonable and fair way, they live only by four things:   sex, pride, greed and fear.  Take away the mechanism of measuring worth and exchange (i.e. monetary system) and you would have chaos and collapse where exactly as today, greed rules except now free rain for fear to be the tool to expedite satiating sex and greed.

What we need to eliminate is not money - but to control and reward only productive work with value.  SIMPLE thing to fix:  eliminate speculative gain.   Our problem is not with money, it is with re-distribution of wealth without adding value.   Again, it is not "money" per se that got us into this mess - it is giving control of everything that values money to a very small portion of the population (banks and finance).

A system that facilitates the enrichment of one minority and thus causes misery to others must be eliminated. You need to get rid of the tools that make it easier to maintain inequality and favor those that do the opposite, simple logic. If people could buy guns anywhere without restrictions, it would make it easier for criminals to do their jobs, it's the same with money

[cannuck]

21 hours ago, Gaétan said:

A system that facilitates the enrichment of one minority and thus causes misery to others must be eliminated. You need to get rid of the tools that make it easier to maintain inequality and favor those that do the opposite, simple logic. If people could buy guns anywhere without restrictions, it would make it easier for criminals to do their jobs, it's the same with money

The "system" you refer to is not money, it is regulation of financial institutions, corporate governance and taxation.  "Money" will be in each and every iteration of ANY system, as tokens are needed for exchange - again as others have clearly explained.   On the other comment: people CAN and DO buy guns without virtually no restrictions - just not from the normal, legal retail route.  Criminal's job would be extremely easy with no tokens to pay people for services such as fire and police.

Edited January 27, 2024 by cannuck

[Gaétan]

On 1/26/2024 at 10:08 PM, cannuck said:

The "system" you refer to is not money, it is regulation of financial institutions, corporate governance and taxation.  "Money" will be in each and every iteration of ANY system, as tokens are needed for exchange - again as others have clearly explained.   On the other comment: people CAN and DO buy guns without virtually no restrictions - just not from the normal, legal retail route.  Criminal's job would be extremely easy with no tokens to pay people for services such as fire and police.

There is no need of tokens or money because people in a system of no money do voluntarily work and no people will sell guns because as no money exist there is no profit to make with it.

[GroundskeeperWillie]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:28 AM, Gaétan said:

When volunteering the more dirty work you do the happier you are:

Volunteering and its Surprising Benefits

Volunteering makes you happy. By measuring hormones and brain activity, researchers have discovered that being helpful to others delivers immense pleasure. Human beings are hard-wired to give to others. The more we give, the happier we feel.

Volunteering and its Surprising Benefits - HelpGuide.org

Doing well by doing good. The relationship between formal volunteering and self-reported health and happiness - PubMed (nih.gov)

Work sets you free.

[cannuck]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:34 PM, Gaétan said:

There is no need of tokens or money because people in a system of no money do voluntarily work and no people will sell guns because as no money exist there is no profit to make with it.

Yeah, right.   People will just "volunteer" to work their ass off for nothing.  Reality is: you end up with the ultimate Marxist society where government owns the means of production and you do what you are told, when your are told, how you are told and do not question authority.  You see, very few people are ever going to volunteer for the really difficult jobs and when they don't get done SOMEONE has to step in - i.e. those who "volunteered" themselves to be government.   Think about this: you come down with cancer and you think the qualification to treat you is going to come from someone who has volunteered to be a doctor?   Good luck with that one.   Come to think of it: with our current Liberal immigration policy, we are getting scary close to the latter situation.

[Gaétan]

7 hours ago, cannuck said:

Yeah, right.   People will just "volunteer" to work their ass off for nothing.  Reality is: you end up with the ultimate Marxist society where government owns the means of production and you do what you are told, when your are told, how you are told and do not question authority.  You see, very few people are ever going to volunteer for the really difficult jobs and when they don't get done SOMEONE has to step in - i.e. those who "volunteered" themselves to be government.   Think about this: you come down with cancer and you think the qualification to treat you is going to come from someone who has volunteered to be a doctor?   Good luck with that one.   Come to think of it: with our current Liberal immigration policy, we are getting scary close to the latter situation.

This is not what the science says because the more difficult is your work, the more happy you are while doing voluntarily work and nobody force you to do any work where you are not volunteer because everything is free of charge you don't have to work to have everything others have, this is the contrary in a society of money.

[cannuck]

14 hours ago, Gaétan said:

This is not what the science says because the more difficult is your work, the more happy you are while doing voluntarily work and nobody force you to do any work where you are not volunteer because everything is free of charge you don't have to work to have everything others have, this is the contrary in a society of money.

What "science" saying that is from a credible source?    Please remember the real world has seen many Marxist states where the state owns everything and everyone is supposed to sit around the firepit and sing Kumbaya to celebrate.   When Chairman Mao took the farmland away from individual, greedy farmers and gave it for free to everyone in the wonderful Communist country as many as 100 million people starved to death.  NOBODY steps up and volunteers to do actual work.  You socialist eutopia has been proven over and over again to be a dismal failure.

[Gaétan]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

What "science" saying that is from a credible source?    Please remember the real world has seen many Marxist states where the state owns everything and everyone is supposed to sit around the firepit and sing Kumbaya to celebrate.   When Chairman Mao took the farmland away from individual, greedy farmers and gave it for free to everyone in the wonderful Communist country as many as 100 million people starved to death.  NOBODY steps up and volunteers to do actual work.  You socialist eutopia has been proven over and over again to be a dismal failure.

For unbelievers the earth doesn't warm up, they'll never believe science and the communists that we know used money.

[cannuck]

5 hours ago, Gaétan said:

For unbelievers the earth doesn't warm up, they'll never believe science and the communists that we know used money.

Who said anything about "the earth doesn't warm up"?????   If you are referring to one of my posts, READ THE DAMN THING and find out that real scientists simply present the facts that there is no scientific evidence that anthropomorphic carbon emissions are related to WHY the Earth has been changing climate - as it has done constantly for the last several billion years.  I suppose if you can't understand something that simple it explains why you think people will simply "volunteer" magnanimously to do what they are paid for today.

OF COURSE the communists we know used money - as it is literally impossible to run an economy and society without tokens of exchange.   People figured that out about 5,000 years ago.

Edited February 5, 2024 by cannuck

[Gaétan]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

OF COURSE the communists we know used money - as it is literally impossible to run an economy and society without tokens of exchange.   People figured that out about 5,000 years ago.

This is exactly the contrary, it is impossible to run the world with money, can't you see that most people on earth live in misery and unhappy. Even in Canada most people are unhappy to go to work in the morning it is because there is no gratification to work for money.

[cannuck]

On 2/5/2024 at 8:11 PM, Gaétan said:

This is exactly the contrary, it is impossible to run the world with money, can't you see that most people on earth live in misery and unhappy. Even in Canada most people are unhappy to go to work in the morning it is because there is no gratification to work for money.

I feel sorry for you if your life is so devoid of meaning.  I know literally hundreds of people who absolutely love their work, and many more - such as myself - who left situations that DIDN'T satisfy them to do something they truly love and enjoy.  We have 2 children who both are doing exactly what they like with their lives and if they have learned anything from us they would simply do something different if what they do now stopped being their passionate pursuit.

You would know that you really enjoy your work when the actual earnings really don't matter to you.  Our eldest is probably paid 20% of what she COULD earn (4 degrees plus a bunch of other qualifications) because she is doing exactly what gives her most joy and satisfaction.

[Gaétan]

11 hours ago, cannuck said:

I feel sorry for you if your life is so devoid of meaning.  I know literally hundreds of people who absolutely love their work, and many more - such as myself - who left situations that DIDN'T satisfy them to do something they truly love and enjoy.  We have 2 children who both are doing exactly what they like with their lives and if they have learned anything from us they would simply do something different if what they do now stopped being their passionate pursuit.

You would know that you really enjoy your work when the actual earnings really don't matter to you.  Our eldest is probably paid 20% of what she COULD earn (4 degrees plus a bunch of other qualifications) because she is doing exactly what gives her most joy and satisfaction.

This is not the case in real life, you just say that but it is back up by something, not studies anyway.

[cannuck]

10 hours ago, Gaétan said:

This is not the case in real life, you just say that but it is back up by something, not studies anyway.

Wow, you completely missed the fact that this IS "real life" and it is "backed up" by entire disciplines of social studies.

[Gaétan]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Wow, you completely missed the fact that this IS "real life" and it is "backed up" by entire disciplines of social studies.

You say that it is a pleasure to work for money but it is not back up by science. It is just lies.

[cannuck]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:02 AM, Gaétan said:

You say that it is a pleasure to work for money but it is not back up by science. It is just lies.

I am still waiting for you to cite some of this "science" from credible sources.

BTW: let me give you a good example of how even your beloved Communist systems RELY on currency to get the results needed.  When I shared an office inside of a medical university in China some of the old profs shared a concept with me that in some places and some times was deployed with great success.   Doctors were given a slate of names when they graduated, and they were paid for all who were healthy and alive.   Instead of practicing just sick care, they were extremely aware of health care as it gave them income at an age when they were raising their family, tapering off as their patient block died off from age.  It was nothing but MONEY that made this possible and effective.  You see, when people were left to just do what THEY wanted in a state-owned (or Emperor owned) society, they went for the maximum benefit, not some altruistic ideal.  Even when ordered to do something, it seldom worked, but when PAID to do it, it often worked quite well.

BTW when it comes to "science" you must first realize I/you/we can find "science" that backs ANYTHING you wish to have supported.   Why?   Because scientist are generally whores who will kiss anyone and tell them how much the love them (or their ideas) as long as they are getting paid.

Sex. Pride. Greed and Fear.  Until you understand that, you won't know how anything is going to work (or not)

Take away currency or "money" and the human animal will just find another token to use in its place - as we have done for thousands of years.

Edited February 11, 2024 by cannuck

[Gaétan]

28 minutes ago, cannuck said:

I am still waiting for you to cite some of this "science" from credible sources.

BTW: let me give you a good example of how even your beloved Communist systems RELY on currency to get the results needed.  When I shared an office inside of a medical university in China some of the old profs shared a concept with me that in some places and some times was deployed with great success.   Doctors were given a slate of names when they graduated, and they were paid for all who were healthy and alive.   Instead of practicing just sick care, they were extremely aware of health care as it gave them income at an age when they were raising their family, tapering off as their patient block died off from age.  It was nothing but MONEY that made this possible and effective.  You see, when people were left to just do what THEY wanted in a state-owned (or Emperor owned) society, they went for the maximum benefit, not some altruistic ideal.  Even when ordered to do something, it seldom worked, but when PAID to do it, it often worked quite well.

BTW when it comes to "science" you must first realize I/you/we can find "science" that backs ANYTHING you wish to have supported.   Why?   Because scientist are generally whores who will kiss anyone and tell them how much the love them (or their ideas) as long as they are getting paid.

Sex. Pride. Greed and Fear.  Until you understand that, you won't know how anything is going to work (or not)

Take away currency or "money" and the human animal will just find another token to use in its place - as we have done for thousands of years.

It is not necessary to read your bull shit about communist, i put the necessary link you just have to read it.

[cannuck]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:02 PM, Gaétan said:

It is not necessary to read your bull shit about communist, i put the necessary link you just have to read it.

So, what do YOU call your fantasy system if not communist (i.e. state owning the means of production)?    Better yet, what does all of the "science" you claim defines this call this cashless social system?

In the real world, we have been there.   When USSR collapsed their version of communism reverted to anarchy.   Then, their currency collapsed and became worthless - so what you want so badly actually existed.   Did "the people" just volunteer to get everything done?    Naaawwww, but the oligarchs were borne then since they were those who had means of communication, command structure, weapons and ammunition.   You can bet your bottom dollar (if you had any cash in your cashless world, that is) the government under Gorbachev issued a new currency in a hurry - because nobody was able to do anything without tokens of exchange.

[Gaétan]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

So, what do YOU call your fantasy system if not communist (i.e. state owning the means of production)?    Better yet, what does all of the "science" you claim defines this call this cashless social system?

In the real world, we have been there.   When USSR collapsed their version of communism reverted to anarchy.   Then, their currency collapsed and became worthless - so what you want so badly actually existed.   Did "the people" just volunteer to get everything done?    Naaawwww, but the oligarchs were borne then since they were those who had means of communication, command structure, weapons and ammunition.   You can bet your bottom dollar (if you had any cash in your cashless world, that is) the government under Gorbachev issued a new currency in a hurry - because nobody was able to do anything without tokens of exchange.

I am not proposing a system like the Soviet one. This system used the currency, not mine. A currency system is not a good system, no matter what you call it. You just trying to say that my system is a soviet system to scare people, you are a hypocrite who tries to associate my system with the Soviet one to benefit from the negative propaganda of capitalism towards it. The goal of my system is justice, love and freedom and yours is slavery completely the opposite.

Edited February 14, 2024 by Gaétan

[cannuck]

29 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

I am not proposing a system like the Soviet one. This system used the currency, not mine. A currency system is not a good system, no matter what you call it.

Please repeat the link you cited.  I haven't got time today to go through whole thread.    Sorry I hadn't read that before - bit crazy around here.

[Gaétan]

9 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Please repeat the link you cited.  I haven't got time today to go through whole thread.    Sorry I hadn't read that before - bit crazy around here.

Volunteering and its Surprising Benefits - HelpGuide.org

Doing well by doing good. The relationship between formal volunteering and self-reported health and happiness - PubMed (nih.gov)

[cannuck]

6 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Volunteering and its Surprising Benefits - HelpGuide.org

Doing well by doing good. The relationship between formal volunteering and self-reported health and happiness - PubMed (nih.gov)

Thanks for the links.   What they say (in summary) is people who volunteer formally are healthier and happier than those who do not.  Now, if we elevate that to hard science (that IMHO excludes social science) we would have to know the causal chemistry and magnitude of happiness and wellness.  You would need to read the references below the links to see how, how much and how well this was done.  I have lived with someone trained in psych and she would tear your conclusions and probably much of the reference work to shreds.   Mostly because you have concluded that people who volunteer as a tiny subset of what they do with their lives would all be happier and healthier if they had no way to pursue their individual goals because they could only volunteer - and HAD to do nothing but volunteer.   Kind of misses the point about who would decide who volunteers for what, how they are rewarded and how you could actually make such a non-economy work (as I pointed out about Russia - fell apart big time and organized crime simply filled the vacuum.

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, cannuck said:

... how you could actually make such a non-economy work 

That part is the most difficult gap in all of this.

[Gaétan]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:55 PM, cannuck said:

Thanks for the links.   What they say (in summary) is people who volunteer formally are healthier and happier than those who do not.  Now, if we elevate that to hard science (that IMHO excludes social science) we would have to know the causal chemistry and magnitude of happiness and wellness.  You would need to read the references below the links to see how, how much and how well this was done.  I have lived with someone trained in psych and she would tear your conclusions and probably much of the reference work to shreds.   Mostly because you have concluded that people who volunteer as a tiny subset of what they do with their lives would all be happier and healthier if they had no way to pursue their individual goals because they could only volunteer - and HAD to do nothing but volunteer.   Kind of misses the point about who would decide who volunteers for what, how they are rewarded and how you could actually make such a non-economy work (as I pointed out about Russia - fell apart big time and organized crime simply filled the vacuum.

The Soviet Union couldn't work because they use money ans so is the capitalism and people are rewarded by the work of others in a non money system. There is no need of a direct reward but undirect. We get rid of money and people work as usual all we have to do is to not use money.

[cannuck]

9 hours ago, Gaétan said:

The Soviet Union couldn't work because they use money ans so is the capitalism and people are rewarded by the work of others in a non money system. There is no need of a direct reward but undirect. We get rid of money and people work as usual all we have to do is to not use money.

I can sympathize with your desire to see a much happier, safer, healthier egalitarian eutopia - and it would work just fine for everything in it - except for the people.   If you eliminate "money" people will just as they have for millenia just choose another token to facilitate exchange.  If money was not the core of the economy (as was the case in '90s Russia) violence simply replaces how those with greed as motivation chose to manage their surroundings.

[Gaétan]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

I can sympathize with your desire to see a much happier, safer, healthier egalitarian eutopia - and it would work just fine for everything in it - except for the people.   If you eliminate "money" people will just as they have for millenia just choose another token to facilitate exchange.  If money was not the core of the economy (as was the case in '90s Russia) violence simply replaces how those with greed as motivation chose to manage their surroundings.

I wait that you put link to back your opinion, if you get rid of money what would be the use of token or money? Why would you pay for something free with token?