blackbird Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 " 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8, 9 Couldn't be more clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Faith without works is dead. I never said it isn't dead. That is not the point. Works or a changed life should follow salvation by grace through faith. But one is not saved by his own works. The point is salvation happens when a person receives God's grace through faith. That is when he becomes a Christian. He has believed in or accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior. If it is true salvation then of course there will be works to follow. That is how all believers in the Bible became Christians. Read the book of Acts. Read about the Ethiopian eunuch. See what Phillip said to him. The eunuch became a believer in an instant. So he received salvation. Works had nothing to do with it. Of course works should follow in a true believer. But only God can judge what kind or how many works. The idea that works is part of earning salvation makes no sense. If you believe that, then how many works is needed? Do you have salvation only after you have done works all your life? Or do you know whether you are saved now? In Romanism, nobody can know when they are saved; nobody has the assurance of salvation. That is a diabolical religion. It is contrary to the Bible. All the apostles, and disciples knew they were saved from the moment they believed or received Christ. Then they went out to follow the Lord or do good works. That is just how it was and is today. Edited February 29 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Faith without works is dead. OF course its dead. But salvation is by grace through faith and is FOLLOWED by works. Nobody can save themselves by works. Claiming works saves a person is denying God's grace through faith saves him. "35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." Acts 8:35-39 What saved the eunuch? Was it grace through faith or was it faith plus works? Obviously the eunuch believed the gospel of Jesus that Phillip preached to him. Phillip said "IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, THOU MAYEST" (be baptized). So because the eunuch believed in Jesus, Phillip baptized him. This was a sign and a testimony that the eunuch had become a Christian or been born again by faith in Jesus. Edited February 29 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 19 minutes ago, blackbird said: I never said it isn't dead. That is not the point. Works or a changed life should follow salvation by grace through faith. But one is not saved by his own works. The point is salvation happens when a person receives God's grace through faith. That is when he becomes a Christian. He has believed in or accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior. If it is true salvation then of course there will be works to follow. That is how all believers in the Bible became Christians. Read the book of Acts. Read about the Ethiopian eunuch. See what Phillip said to him. The eunuch became a believer in an instant. So he received salvation. Works had nothing to do with it. Of course works should follow in a true believer. But only God can judge what kind or how many works. The idea that works is part of earning salvation makes no sense. If you believe that, then how many works is needed? Do you have salvation only after you have done works all your life? Or do you know whether you are saved now? In Romanism, nobody can know when they are saved; nobody has the assurance of salvation. That is a diabolical religion. It is contrary to the Bible. All the apostles, and disciples knew they were saved from the moment they believed or received Christ. Then they went out to follow the Lord or do good works. That is just how it was and is today. It is the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 6 minutes ago, blackbird said: OF course its dead. But salvation is by grace through faith and is FOLLOWED by works. Nobody can save themselves by works. Claiming works saves a person is denying God's grace through faith saves him. "35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." Acts 8:35-39 What saved the eunuch? Was it grace through faith or was it faith plus works? Obviously the eunuch believed the gospel of Jesus that Phillip preached to him. Phillip said "IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, THOU MAYEST" (be baptized). So because the eunuch believed in Jesus, Phillip baptized him. This was a sign and a testimony that the eunuch had become a Christian or been born again by faith in Jesus. Yes faith AND works. You might get it yet. If faith alone was all thats needed works wouldnt need to FOLLOW. Think for once. God gave you a brain right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 13 hours ago, blackbird said: Words give us reports of everything. That is how events, science, news, history, etc. is all recorded for our benefit. We have to study things and determine it's truth and accuracy. The veracity of what one reads can only be determined by the person reading it. You have to make that judgment yourself. But to say written information can never be absolute truth is nonsensical and irrational. How else can anyone know anything about anything if not by written information? It is up to the reader to determine what is true and what is false. Some things may have to be investigated further from other sources to verify something. But the bible which is nothing but words is absolute, reproducible proof because you say it is.. Second, words on their own with no physical manifestation/evidence are mostly hollow and meaningless. For example, I can read about economic theory but also can witness it in action.. law of demand, price elasticity of demand, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 37 minutes ago, Yakuda said: As to forgiveness of sins John 20: 22-23. You lose again. These verse are referring to the disciples preaching the gospel. The individual must believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and repent to receive remission of sins. That is all there is to it. It is not some magical power that priests claim to be able to forgive or remit sins. It is simply stating that the disciples had the power by virtue of their preaching the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. To receive this forgiveness or remission of sins, one had to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and then they were forgiven. That is what it is referring to. It is the same as what we read in various other places in the Bible which is by grace through faith. This is a result of hearing the gospel. That is what John 20:22-23 is referring to, not some magical power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 6 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: But the bible which is nothing but words is absolute, reproducible proof because you say it is. No, I never said it is proof because I say it is. That is silly. Everyone has to decide in his own heart whether he will believe the Bible or not. But if one has not studied the Bible in any serious way, they may be making false assumptions. Some may not believe because they have not received God's grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8, 9) One can believe only if God gives them the grace to believe. Grace through faith is a gift of God. We are not talking about earthly things here; these are spiritual matters. They require a spiritual understanding, not an earthly, materialistic understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 2 minutes ago, blackbird said: No, I never said it is proof because I say it is. That is silly. Everyone has to decide in his own heart whether he will believe the Bible or not. But if one has not studied the Bible in any serious way, they may be making false assumptions. Some may not believe because they have not received God's grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8, 9) One can believe only if God gives them the grace to believe. Grace through faith is a gift of God. We are not talking about earthly things here; these are spiritual matters. They require a spiritual understanding, not an earthly, materialistic understanding. As a person, I must not be trusting enough. For myself to buy into something.. I need proof, evidence.. not just empty words. I admit to not having studied the Bible to any degree. What little i have read did not meet my threshold. In its absence, I have had a fine, fulfilling existence. I live 250 feet from a methodist church. Am I unpleasant to them? Not in the least. Why? Because they leave me alone. No pamphlets, no brochures, no one knocking at the door. To me, that is a sign of respect. Hence, when I encounter someone from there, I am quite pleasant. If someone was to vandalize their property and I saw it.. I would not stand by. Why? Not because I am religious. There must be a reason. Oh.. they are law abiding citizens who mind their own business and so do not deserve to have their property defaced. I would do the same even if the building was not religious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 40 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: For myself to buy into something.. I need proof, evidence.. not just empty words. I admit to not having studied the Bible to any degree. What little i have read did not meet my threshold. In its absence, I have had a fine, fulfilling existence. Well, all I can tell you is what the Bible says and what some commentaries say about the subject. "God did not choose everyone. If He had, then everyone would come to faith in Christ. He chose some, and He left others to their own desires. Left to ourselves, all of us would continue in our rebellion and reject Christ. God chose to pursue some, convict them of their need, and lead them to faith. It is because of God’s choice that anyone comes to faith in Christ. Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day” (John 6:44). This is a tough truth to get our minds around. We are tempted to think that we are more just and gracious than God and that He should have chosen everyone. We need to reject that temptation. We are in no place to judge God! It is not as though some are desperately crying out to Him for salvation and He rejects them because He has not chosen them. Those whom God does not choose continue doing exactly what they want—they rebel against God and try to stay as far away from Him as possible. He simply allows them to continue on the path they have freely and willfully chosen. He has, however, chosen to intervene in the lives of some and win them over. He does this so that He might show His love and kindness to people who are undeserving." What is the doctrine of election? | GotQuestions.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impartialobserver Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 minute ago, blackbird said: Well, all I can tell you is what the Bible says and what some commentaries say about the subject. "God did not choose everyone. If He had, then everyone would come to faith in Christ. He chose some, and He left others to their own desires. Left to ourselves, all of us would continue in our rebellion and reject Christ. God chose to pursue some, convict them of their need, and lead them to faith. It is because of God’s choice that anyone comes to faith in Christ. Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day” (John 6:44). This is a tough truth to get our minds around. We are tempted to think that we are more just and gracious than God and that He should have chosen everyone. We need to reject that temptation. We are in no place to judge God! It is not as though some are desperately crying out to Him for salvation and He rejects them because He has not chosen them. Those whom God does not choose continue doing exactly what they want—they rebel against God and try to stay as far away from Him as possible. He simply allows them to continue on the path they have freely and willfully chosen. He has, however, chosen to intervene in the lives of some and win them over. He does this so that He might show His love and kindness to people who are undeserving." What is the doctrine of election? | GotQuestions.org I do not feel that I am better than (what I deem to be) a fictional being. It is a simple matter of making my way through life and doing so in a way that helps my family. It is hard to wrap my mind around the idea that I should bend to the will of something that does not exist and have church officials have any sway over my decisions at all. I do just fine as is. I rose out of poverty with zero assistance from God, church, or anything. It was a struggle for sure but I made it work.. how could I have done with this with zero religious intervention? Easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, blackbird said: These verse are referring to the disciples preaching the gospel. The individual must believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and repent to receive remission of sins. That is all there is to it. It is not some magical power that priests claim to be able to forgive or remit sins. It is simply stating that the disciples had the power by virtue of their preaching the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. To receive this forgiveness or remission of sins, one had to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and then they were forgiven. That is what it is referring to. It is the same as what we read in various other places in the Bible which is by grace through faith. This is a result of hearing the gospel. That is what John 20:22-23 is referring to, not some magical power. No it doesnt. Whats wrong with you? Your views are so warped you think they're normal. I keep forgetting that you people can't let the words speak for themselves because you have to pervert them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 (edited) 8 minutes ago, impartialobserver said: I do not feel that I am better than (what I deem to be) a fictional being. It is a simple matter of making my way through life and doing so in a way that helps my family. It is hard to wrap my mind around the idea that I should bend to the will of something that does not exist and have church officials have any sway over my decisions at all. I do just fine as is. I rose out of poverty with zero assistance from God, church, or anything. It was a struggle for sure but I made it work.. how could I have done with this with zero religious intervention? Easily. You aren't suggesting that your "rising out of poverty" is proof there is no God are you? BTW "church officials" have no sway over anyone's decisions. Even God has no sway you are completely in control of your decisions and every decision has consequences but they are the result of your decision and no one else's. Edited February 29 by Yakuda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 The truth is Christ can set us free. We are born in the bondage of sin. Romanism teaches one must have faith plus works, that is, work his way to heaven somehow. Therefore a Catholic never really knows if he has done the right things or done enough to earn going to heaven. This is contrary to countless verses in the Bible that teach salvation is entirely by God's grace through faith. God saves people from hell; they do not and can not save themselves. People work because they are saved and become a son or child of God. They are part of God's family and want to do good for their Lord and Savior. If you believe you must work your way to heaven somehow and nobody has defined clearly what that means, then you are in bondage. You have not really received the freedom that is in Christ. Jesus came to set us free. We were born in sin and have a sinful nature. That means we have no real freedom. But Jesus came to earth and died for our sins. If we believe in Him as our personal Lord and Savior and believe he died for us personally, we are forgiven and thereby set free. We are new creatures in Christ. "How can we experience true freedom in Christ? | GotQuestions.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) On 2/29/2024 at 12:06 PM, blackbird said: " 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8, 9 Couldn't be more clear. As clear as, "You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"? James 2:24 As clear as, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father"? Matt 7:21 As clear as "Those who have done good deeds will rise to life, while those who have done evil will rise to judgement"? John 5:29 As clear as Matt 25:31-46? As clear as "For the son of man will come with his angels in the glory of his father, and then will repay everyone according to what has been done."? Matt 16:27 As clear as "The one who plants and the one who waters have a common end, and each will be rewarded in accordance with his labors"? 1 Cor 3:8 As clear as Colossians 3:23-25? As clear as Rev 20:12 As clear as Rev 20:13 I know it's hard to hear but you've been deceived friend. You been lied to with perverted scripture Edited March 1 by Yakuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) 46 minutes ago, blackbird said: The truth is Christ can set us free. We are born in the bondage of sin. Romanism teaches one must have faith plus works, that is, work his way to heaven somehow. Therefore a Catholic never really knows if he has done the right things or done enough to earn going to heaven. This is contrary to countless verses in the Bible that teach salvation is entirely by God's grace through faith. God saves people from hell; they do not and can not save themselves. People work because they are saved and become a son or child of God. They are part of God's family and want to do good for their Lord and Savior. If you believe you must work your way to heaven somehow and nobody has defined clearly what that means, then you are in bondage. You have not really received the freedom that is in Christ. Jesus came to set us free. We were born in sin and have a sinful nature. That means we have no real freedom. But Jesus came to earth and died for our sins. If we believe in Him as our personal Lord and Savior and believe he died for us personally, we are forgiven and thereby set free. We are new creatures in Christ. "How can we experience true freedom in Christ? | GotQuestions.org It's amazing how blind they make you people. You knew nothing before then the perverters of scripture trained you in rote memorization of scripture. Then they have you read the "commentaries" written by master perverters of scripture. You're so blind though and so void of reason that you haven't figured out yet why you need commentaries written by men if scripture is so clear. It would be funny if there wasnt so much at stake. Edited March 1 by Yakuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) 20 hours ago, blackbird said: Well, all I can tell you is what the Bible says and what some commentaries say about the subject. "God did not choose everyone. If He had, then everyone would come to faith in Christ. He chose some, and He left others to their own desires. Left to ourselves, all of us would continue in our rebellion and reject Christ. God chose to pursue some, convict them of their need, and lead them to faith. It is because of God’s choice that anyone comes to faith in Christ. Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day” (John 6:44). This is a tough truth to get our minds around. We are tempted to think that we are more just and gracious than God and that He should have chosen everyone. We need to reject that temptation. We are in no place to judge God! It is not as though some are desperately crying out to Him for salvation and He rejects them because He has not chosen them. Those whom God does not choose continue doing exactly what they want—they rebel against God and try to stay as far away from Him as possible. He simply allows them to continue on the path they have freely and willfully chosen. He has, however, chosen to intervene in the lives of some and win them over. He does this so that He might show His love and kindness to people who are undeserving." What is the doctrine of election? | GotQuestions.org Its hilarious to see a sola scriptura "Christian" appeal to commentaries. If scripture is so clear why do you need commentaries? What was it Luther said? Oh yeah, "In these matters of faith, to be sure, each Christian is for himself pope and church". (Werke, Weimer: 1898, 5:407, 35.) Edited March 1 by Yakuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, Yakuda said: As clear as, "You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"? James 2:24 As clear as, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father"? Matt 7:21 As clear as "Those who have done good deeds will rise to life l, while those who have done evil will rise to judgement"? John 5:29 As clear as Matt 25:31-46? As clear as "For the son of man will come with his angels in the glory of his father, and then will repay everyone according to what has been done."? Matt 16:27 As clear as "The one who plants and the one who waters have a common end, and each will be rewarded in accordance with his labors"? 1 Cor 3:8 As clear as Colossians 3:23-25? As clear as Rev 20:12 As clear as Rev 20:13 I know it's hard to hear but you've been deceived friend. You been lied to with perverted scripture No. It is your interpretation that is wrong. The fact is a person who has true faith (by God's grace), is going to have a changed heart and a willingness to serve his Lord and Savior. But Romanism disregards that and claims you must bow the knee to Romanism and it's claims that the church saves a person through the sacraments. You never mention the fact that almost all of Romes' doctrines are contrary to the Bible. A few examples of false doctrines starting with the basics are: 1. A priesthood offering sacrifices (Masses) for sins is unbiblical because Jesus Christ offered himself once for all. It is never to be repeated. Read Hebrews. Therefore it is a blasphemy to be claiming to be offering a sacrfice for sins in the Mass. 2. The claim that priests can forgive sins by hearing confessions and giving absolution. No man who is and sinner (and everyone is an imperfect sinner) can take God's place and forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. A person must go to our heavenly Father through Jesus Christ to confess and receive forgiveness. When a person becomes a Christian he receives forgiveness and eternal life. In Catholicism nobody can go to God through Christ; they must go through a priest. This is a roadblock in effect. 3. Elevating Mary to be the "Mother of God" is blasphemous and false. Nothing in the Bible supports that. Praying to Mary is idolatry. One can pray only to God through Christ. 4. A papacy that purports to take the place of Jesus Christ (or God) on earth and claim infallibility. These are just a few examples of a religion invented by men and contrary to the Bible. Yet you strongly support it and condemn anyone who dares to criticize your interpretation on the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. Since you support wholeheartedly all of this false religion and unbiblical teachings, why would anyone think you are credible on the doctrine of salvation? They shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, blackbird said: No. It is your interpretation that is wrong. The fact is a person who has true faith (by God's grace), is going to have a changed heart and a willingness to serve his Lord and Savior. But Romanism disregards that and claims you must bow the knee to Romanism and it's claims that the church saves a person through the sacraments. You never mention the fact that almost all of Romes' doctrines are contrary to the Bible. A few examples of false doctrines starting with the basics are: 1. A priesthood offering sacrifices (Masses) for sins is unbiblical because Jesus Christ offered himself once for all. It is never to be repeated. Read Hebrews. Therefore it is a blasphemy to be claiming to be offering a sacrfice for sins in the Mass. 2. The claim that priests can forgive sins by hearing confessions and giving absolution. No man who is and sinner (and everyone is an imperfect sinner) can take God's place and forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. A person must go to our heavenly Father through Jesus Christ to confess and receive forgiveness. When a person becomes a Christian he receives forgiveness and eternal life. In Catholicism nobody can go to God through Christ; they must go through a priest. This is a roadblock in effect. 3. Elevating Mary to be the "Mother of God" is blasphemous and false. Nothing in the Bible supports that. Praying to Mary is idolatry. One can pray only to God through Christ. 4. A papacy that purports to take the place of Jesus Christ (or God) on earth and claim infallibility. These are just a few examples of a religion invented by men and contrary to the Bible. Yet you strongly support it and condemn anyone who dares to criticize your interpretation on the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. Since you support wholeheartedly all of this false religion and unbiblical teachings, why would anyone think you are credible on the doctrine of salvation? They shouldn't. I show you where your claims are biblically wrong and what do you do? You ignore it and attack the catholic church. NO WHERE in scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone. It's amazing how they have twisted you out of proportion. Why do you appeal to "commenteries" if scripture is so clear? How many times have you switched churches because you didn't like the "gospel" the cashier turned pastor was preaching? Edited March 1 by Yakuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) 4 hours ago, blackbird said: No. It is your interpretation that is wrong. The fact is a person who has true faith (by God's grace), is going to have a changed heart and a willingness to serve his Lord and Savior. But Romanism disregards that and claims you must bow the knee to Romanism and it's claims that the church saves a person through the sacraments. You never mention the fact that almost all of Romes' doctrines are contrary to the Bible. A few examples of false doctrines starting with the basics are: 1. A priesthood offering sacrifices (Masses) for sins is unbiblical because Jesus Christ offered himself once for all. It is never to be repeated. Read Hebrews. Therefore it is a blasphemy to be claiming to be offering a sacrfice for sins in the Mass. 2. The claim that priests can forgive sins by hearing confessions and giving absolution. No man who is and sinner (and everyone is an imperfect sinner) can take God's place and forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. A person must go to our heavenly Father through Jesus Christ to confess and receive forgiveness. When a person becomes a Christian he receives forgiveness and eternal life. In Catholicism nobody can go to God through Christ; they must go through a priest. This is a roadblock in effect. 3. Elevating Mary to be the "Mother of God" is blasphemous and false. Nothing in the Bible supports that. Praying to Mary is idolatry. One can pray only to God through Christ. 4. A papacy that purports to take the place of Jesus Christ (or God) on earth and claim infallibility. These are just a few examples of a religion invented by men and contrary to the Bible. Yet you strongly support it and condemn anyone who dares to criticize your interpretation on the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. Since you support wholeheartedly all of this false religion and unbiblical teachings, why would anyone think you are credible on the doctrine of salvation? They shouldn't. You wrote: No. It is your interpretation that is wrong. The fact is a person who has true faith (by God's grace), is going to have a changed heart and a willingness to serve his Lord and Savior. FIrst prove its wrong. You can't from the bible but go ahead give it a whirl. Second what if they aren't willing? Oh wait they don't have "true" faith right? Show me from scripture where it says faith must be "true". Or do you mean like James said, we are justified by works and not faith alone. That faith without works is dead. The best you heretics can do is pitifully claim our interpretation is wrong because nothing in scripture supports your perversion. Lastly if faith alone is all that's needed (that's what alone means, only) then why do I need to be willing to serve God? God knows our hearts right i could rob a bank and because I have uttered the magic incantation, then I'm saved, matter what right? Faith alone(only). If I'm alone in a room there is no one else there, I'm the only one there. I'm alone. Faith alone saves so nothing else is needed. Correct? Edited March 1 by Yakuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 7 hours ago, Yakuda said: As clear as, "You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"? James 2:24 As clear as, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father"? Matt 7:21 As clear as "Those who have done good deeds will rise to life, while those who have done evil will rise to judgement"? John 5:29 As clear as Matt 25:31-46? As clear as "For the son of man will come with his angels in the glory of his father, and then will repay everyone according to what has been done."? Matt 16:27 As clear as "The one who plants and the one who waters have a common end, and each will be rewarded in accordance with his labors"? 1 Cor 3:8 As clear as Colossians 3:23-25? As clear as Rev 20:12 As clear as Rev 20:13 I know it's hard to hear but you've been deceived friend. You have been lied to with perverted scripture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, Yakuda said: As clear as "Those who have done good deeds will rise to life, while those who have done evil will rise to judgement"? John 5:29 You are not interpreting these verses correctly. This is not talking about how one is saved. Countless other verses verify salvation is by faith; works follow once one becomes a child of God. The verses that say salvation is by faith or believing cannot be correct if we accept your interpretation on some verses. The Bible does not contradict itself. This is what one commentator says about this verse: quote John 5:29 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Verse 29 describes two resurrections, one for the lost and one for the believer. The first occurs before the millennial reign of Christ and the other at the end of the Millennium. 29 and come forth— Those who are bodily dead will come out of their graves, and their bodies will once again be joined to their souls. those who have done good [excellent], The idea here is not that one has to do good to go to heaven. The “good” here is the by-product of salvation. The word “good” means excellent. It is the good that springs from faith. These words do not teach salvation by good works. The entire argument of the gospel of John asserts that a person is saved by what he or she believes (Jn 20:31). to the resurrection of life, For those who believe, there will be a future bodily resurrection unto eternal life. The resurrection to life will occur in stages. First, the Lord will rapture the church. Then He will resurrect the Tribulation saints at His Second Coming. and those who have done evil [worthless things], The words “done good” and “done evil” do not imply salvation by works or loss of salvation by evil deeds. The word for “evil” here is not moral evil but something worthless. It is an “evil” or worthless life to not trust in Christ for salvation. to the resurrection of condemnation. The resurrection of condemnation will occur at the end of the Millennium (Re 20:11-15). The lives of these people attest to their state of being lost eternally. PRINCIPLE: There are two resurrections: to life and to judgment. APPLICATION: There is only one reason why people are lost eternally—they reject the sacrifice of God’s Son for their salvation (Jn 3:36). The dead will be raised in sequence (1 Co 15:22-24). There is an “order” to the resurrection of people. There will be a resurrection, and then “after that” another resurrection. First, believers will be raised at the Rapture (1 Th 4:16) and then the Old Testament and Tribulation saints at the end of the Tribulation (Re 20:4). Revelation 20 indicates that there will be 1,000 years between the Rapture and the Great White Throne judgment. The first resurrection is of those who believed in Christ. The second resurrection includes anyone who died as an unbeliever. God completely bypasses judgment for the believer because Jesus took our penalty for sin. He paid the price for our sin. There is no charge against the believer whereby he can be judged (Ro 8:33-34). unquote John 5:29 | Bible Exposition Commentary (versebyversecommentary.com) The subject of John 5:29 is the two resurrections, not how one is redeemed. Edited March 2 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 2 hours ago, blackbird said: You are not interpreting these verses correctly. This is not talking about how one is saved. Countless other verses verify salvation is by faith; works follow once one becomes a child of God. The verses that say salvation is by faith or believing cannot be correct if we accept your interpretation on some verses. The Bible does not contradict itself. This is what one commentator says about this verse: quote John 5:29 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Verse 29 describes two resurrections, one for the lost and one for the believer. The first occurs before the millennial reign of Christ and the other at the end of the Millennium. 29 and come forth— Those who are bodily dead will come out of their graves, and their bodies will once again be joined to their souls. those who have done good [excellent], The idea here is not that one has to do good to go to heaven. The “good” here is the by-product of salvation. The word “good” means excellent. It is the good that springs from faith. These words do not teach salvation by good works. The entire argument of the gospel of John asserts that a person is saved by what he or she believes (Jn 20:31). to the resurrection of life, For those who believe, there will be a future bodily resurrection unto eternal life. The resurrection to life will occur in stages. First, the Lord will rapture the church. Then He will resurrect the Tribulation saints at His Second Coming. and those who have done evil [worthless things], The words “done good” and “done evil” do not imply salvation by works or loss of salvation by evil deeds. The word for “evil” here is not moral evil but something worthless. It is an “evil” or worthless life to not trust in Christ for salvation. to the resurrection of condemnation. The resurrection of condemnation will occur at the end of the Millennium (Re 20:11-15). The lives of these people attest to their state of being lost eternally. PRINCIPLE: There are two resurrections: to life and to judgment. APPLICATION: There is only one reason why people are lost eternally—they reject the sacrifice of God’s Son for their salvation (Jn 3:36). The dead will be raised in sequence (1 Co 15:22-24). There is an “order” to the resurrection of people. There will be a resurrection, and then “after that” another resurrection. First, believers will be raised at the Rapture (1 Th 4:16) and then the Old Testament and Tribulation saints at the end of the Tribulation (Re 20:4). Revelation 20 indicates that there will be 1,000 years between the Rapture and the Great White Throne judgment. The first resurrection is of those who believed in Christ. The second resurrection includes anyone who died as an unbeliever. God completely bypasses judgment for the believer because Jesus took our penalty for sin. He paid the price for our sin. There is no charge against the believer whereby he can be judged (Ro 8:33-34). unquote John 5:29 | Bible Exposition Commentary (versebyversecommentary.com) The subject of John 5:29 is the two resurrections, not how one is redeemed. For the 1000th time salvation IS by faith AND works as Scripture says which I have shown you repeatedly. Prove you have the infallible interpretation. If you cite to a commentary you know you've been duped right? BTW Why are you appealing to a commentary on scripture instead of scripture? You have no idea what you're even talking about about so you rely on a commentary to tell you what to believe and not the clear words of scripture. James is clear a man is justified by works and not faith alone. It's clear and obvious to all but the blind. You actually think the mumbo jumbo you believe is true. I can only imagine how hard it is to accept you've been duped but you need to brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 6 minutes ago, Yakuda said: BTW Why are you appealing to a commentary on scripture instead of scripture? You have no idea what you're even talking about about so you rely on a commentary to tell you what to believe and not the clear words of scripture. I did quote over a hundred verses that show salvation is by believing or faith, but you rejected it all. You are obviously not interested in scripture or commentaries. Admit it. You know even if I quote other Scriptures you reject them anyway. You only accept what the Catechism says or what the Catholic church claims. Doesn't matter what I say, you automatically reject it whether it is Scripture verses or commentaries which refer to Scriptures. Commentaries are what some theologian believes they mean. It would prove to be what many denominations believe as well. Why is that so bad? You should tell us where you are getting your interpretation from. Why is referring to what other people say about Scripture so abhorrent to you anyway? Something else that doesn't make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Yakuda said: For the 1000th time salvation IS by faith AND works as Scripture says which I have shown you repeatedly. Prove you have the infallible interpretation. Actually I don't even need to refer to commentaries to show you where you are wrong on that. Just read chapters 3, 4, and 5 in Romans and will see. Also read Galatians. Or Ephesian 2:8, 9. You still have not explained those chapters and books of the Bible. Can you explain what Ephesians means when it says " 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8, 9 KJV What does it mean? What does this verse mean? "16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. " Galatians 2:16 KJV Or what does this verse mean? ' 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" Romans 3:20-22 KJV or this verse, "28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28 KJV " Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4:3-8 KJV No commentaries involved there. What do you say? Edited March 2 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.