GTA school board removing all books published pre-2008 (they're offensive)

[Canadian_Cavalier]

Remember when these people were bragging about how they read "banned books" when pornographic material became forbidden in certain US elementary school libraries?

[suds]

On 9/15/2023 at 8:43 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Most people don’t know the people they’re voting for as trustee candidates in an election.

This is a problem that could be fixed relatively easily if voters took the time to do so. If you don't like the way schools are being run or the track record of your trustees, then educate yourself and vote accordingly. If you don't, then activist groups have a far greater chance of getting in the trustees they want. A little bit of effort can go a long way.

Edited September 18, 2023 by suds

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, suds said:

This is a problem that could be fixed relatively easily if voters took the time to do so. If you don't like the way schools are being run or the track record of your trustees, then educate yourself and vote accordingly. If you don't, then activist groups have a far greater chance of getting in the trustees they want. A little bit of effort can go a long way.

The trustees don't really decide what is in the curriculum though.  And the real activists are the extreme posters such as the ones above who lie that porn is given to children.

When it comes down to it, the majority supports the curriculum with minor changes.

[suds]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

The trustees don't really decide what is in the curriculum though.  And the real activists are the extreme posters such as the ones above who lie that porn is given to children.

When it comes down to it, the majority supports the curriculum with minor changes.

My understanding is that 'school curriculum' (or what is taught in the classrooms) is set by the Ontario Ministry of Education. School libraries on the other hand requires 'school districts to develop their own guidelines and associated procedures for the selection of education resources that are not on the ministry's list of approved textbooks'. The Peel District School Board is governed by a board of trustees elected by public school taxpayers. So the Ministry of Education decides what goes on in the classrooms and the trustees decide what goes on in the library (with some limited oversight by the Ministry).

Edited September 19, 2023 by suds

[ExFlyer]

16 hours ago, suds said:

This is a problem that could be fixed relatively easily if voters took the time to do so. If you don't like the way schools are being run or the track record of your trustees, then educate yourself and vote accordingly. If you don't, then activist groups have a far greater chance of getting in the trustees they want. A little bit of effort can go a long way.

Can be said for every candidate for all elections?.

Maybe we would not have had to suffer with Trudeau for 3 elections??  LOL

[ExFlyer]

12 hours ago, suds said:

My understanding is that 'school curriculum' (or what is taught in the classrooms) is set by the Ontario Ministry of Education. School libraries on the other hand requires 'school districts to develop their own guidelines and associated procedures for the selection of education resources that are not on the ministry's list of approved textbooks'. The Peel District School Board is governed by a board of trustees elected by public school taxpayers. So the Ministry of Education decides what goes on in the classrooms and the trustees decide what goes on in the library (with some limited oversight by the Ministry).

Interesting comment.

I was unaware the school district choose what books to stock and even that the ministry has "approved textbooks".

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, ExFlyer said:

Can be said for every candidate for all elections?.

But the problem isn't left vs right, it's issue -free image based politics where candidates are sold on how they look and how they speak.

 

Where ideas are barely covered, and only at a high level...a buzzword level.  

Ask yourself what our main candidates stand for, really, what their qualifications are 

 

We have never recognized how much the advertising industry has adversely affected our political system.

[Michael Hardner]

12 hours ago, suds said:

My understanding is that 'school curriculum' (or what is taught in the classrooms) is set by the Ontario Ministry of Education. School libraries on the other hand requires 'school districts to develop their own guidelines and associated procedures for the selection of education resources that are not on the ministry's list of approved textbooks'. The Peel District School Board is governed by a board of trustees elected by public school taxpayers. So the Ministry of Education decides what goes on in the classrooms and the trustees decide what goes on in the library (with some limited oversight by the Ministry).

https://www.peelschools.org/trustee-roles-and-responsibilities

 

If you read this is seems more like the Trustees represent the public to the board.  They vote on budget and some governance but I don't see anything that says that they approve reading lists or anything at this level.

[ExFlyer]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

But the problem isn't left vs right, it's issue -free image based politics where candidates are sold on how they look and how they speak.

 

Where ideas are barely covered, and only at a high level...a buzzword level.  

Ask yourself what our main candidates stand for, really, what their qualifications are 

 

We have never recognized how much the advertising industry has adversely affected our political system.

We are talking about school trustees and I remarked on the posters comment about not checking out the candidates.

I never said or intended anything about left/right. When it comes to left/right, it is a BS statement that seems to cover anything a person does not agree with. If they agree, it's OK if not then it is left/right. Anyone and everyone can have an opinion to take on a subject and it is not a left/right thing, just an opinion. I am sick and tired of people making everything political when it is only an opinion. .

The "advertising industry" only shows, prints or records what they are paind to do.

[Michael Hardner]

This explains some of how non textbook reading material is selected.  There are provincial and local guidelines, and it seems that the librarian is expected to follow them

 

https://www.canadianschoollibraries.ca/collection-diversity-toolkit/guidelines-procedures/

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

We are talking about school trustees and I remarked on the posters comment about not checking out the candidates.

I never said or intended anything about left/right. When it comes to left/right, it is a BS statement that seems to cover anything a person does not agree with. If they agree, it's OK if not then it is left/right. Anyone and everyone can have an opinion to take on a subject and it is not a left/right thing, just an opinion. I am sick and tired of people making everything political when it is only an opinion. .

The "advertising industry" only shows, prints or records what they are paind to do.

I know you didn't, I was attempting to innoculate the discussion from partisan drift.

What are some of the unintended side effects of advertising?

[ExFlyer]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I know you didn't, I was attempting to innoculate the discussion from partisan drift.

What are some of the unintended side effects of advertising?

There is no unintended side effects of advertising.

Advertising is an activity meaning something that is supposed to affect you positively or negatively and is intended to affect you..

Whatever the goal of advertising is should be noticeable. Make you buy or not buy, be it a product or an idea or a philosophy.

[Michael Hardner]

27 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. There is no unintended side effects of advertising.

2. Advertising is an activity meaning something that is supposed to affect you positively or negatively and is intended to affect you..

Whatever the goal of advertising is should be noticeable. Make you buy or not buy, be it a product or an idea or a philosophy.

1. Everything has unintended side effects.

2. Side effect #1, a mode of communication that dominates the public sphere, that is dishonest, and doesn't demand scrutiny from the recipient.

Getting back to education... can you see how members of the public fall back on the customer model to demand things from their school boards?  I see nothing but demands for service and nothing like dialogue and compromise.

The decline of religion and the moral sphere plays into it also.

[ExFlyer]

31 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Everything has unintended side effects.

2. Side effect #1, a mode of communication that dominates the public sphere, that is dishonest, and doesn't demand scrutiny from the recipient.

Getting back to education... can you see how members of the public fall back on the customer model to demand things from their school boards?  I see nothing but demands for service and nothing like dialogue and compromise.

The decline of religion and the moral sphere plays into it also.

1. Advertising sole purpose is to influence people.

2. I do not understand what "customer demand" is in context to school boards. Seems to me, in my 5 school boards that it is a constant argument between board members. To the point that meetings have been shut down and parents protests outside of the meetings. In the need, nothing changes.

I am unsure of what members of the board are supposed to do or manage. Seems personal agendas are the rule.

 

 

[CdnFox]

there is a bit of a challenge with 'voter fatigute'.   Voters SHOULD be involved in every election - that's the very definition of their job in a 'democracy'.  But - federal elections every 2 years or so on average these days, provincial elections every 4 years, leadership races every  few years, municiple elections every 4 years or so, trustee elections (i don't even know how often) then for many there's even annual strata elections where they elect the board that will manage their home, their greatest asset in many cases.

That's a lot of elections. And a lot of people to get to know and positions to consider and a lot of issues to become knowledgeable enough about to have an informed opinion on their policy.

 

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Advertising sole purpose is to influence people.

2. I do not understand what "customer demand" is in context to school boards. Seems to me, in my 5 school boards that it is a constant argument between board members. To the point that meetings have been shut down and parents protests outside of the meetings. In the need, nothing changes.

I am unsure of what members of the board are supposed to do or manage. Seems personal agendas are the rule.

 

 

1. You're talking past me.

2. It seems like an example of what I mean.

[suds]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

https://www.peelschools.org/trustee-roles-and-responsibilities

 

If you read this is seems more like the Trustees represent the public to the board.  They vote on budget and some governance but I don't see anything that says that they approve reading lists or anything at this level.

I did indeed read it before posting. It says in the preamble .... 'The Peel District School Board, like every school board in Ontario, is governed by a board of trustees.'

from another link...

What is a school board trustee

There are 72 school boards across Ontario, including English, French, and Catholic boards. The number of trustees for each board depends on the number of students and the regions it encompasses.

In Toronto, each ward has its own trustee.

“They make all the decisions regarding all the policies of a school board, as well as approving a balanced budget, and hiring the director of education,” said Cathy Abraham, president of the Ontario Public School Board's Association (OPSBA).

Abraham said that trustees act as “advocates for our local communities” and make decisions on busing to and from schools, student dress codes, when and where to buy property, and when a school should close. They also set goals for student achievement, well-being and equity.

Budgets for school boards can be in the billions. The Toronto District School Board, for example, has an annual budget of approximately $3.5 billion. Abraham says that it’s important for trustees to show they are capable of being fiscally responsible for that reason.

What is not under the purview of a school board trustee?

School board trustees have no control over the curriculum being taught to children. This responsibility lies solely with the Ontario government.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/what-is-a-school-board-trustee-and-why-should-i-vote-for-them-during-the-municipal-elections-1.6104274

Edited September 19, 2023 by suds

[suds]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This explains some of how non textbook reading material is selected.  There are provincial and local guidelines, and it seems that the librarian is expected to follow them

 

https://www.canadianschoollibraries.ca/collection-diversity-toolkit/guidelines-procedures/

from the link provided....

Ontario: In Ontario, the Ministry of Education requires school districts to develop their own guidelines and associated procedures for the selection of educational resources that are not on the ministry’s list of approved textbooks (The Trillium List, 2008). The policy guideline, Equity and Inclusive Education in Ontario Schools: Guidelines for Policy Development and Implementation (2014) supports principles of diversity and inclusion in the selection of educational resources.

Inclusive curriculum and assessment practices (p. 55)

• A board procedure is in place to assess learning materials for discriminatory bias.
• Resources and instructional strategies:
  • are in compliance with the provisions of the Ontario Human Rights Code with respect to the prohibited grounds of discrimination;
  • show people of different races, genders, and ages in non-stereotypical settings, occupations, and activities;
  • explore the roles and contributions of all peoples in Canada, and the factors that shaped these roles;
  • encourage open discussion of the prohibited grounds of discrimination under the Code (e.g., race, gender, disability, faith) in society, the community, and the school.

From this I would have to say it lies mainly in the hands of the trustees to decide what goes into the school libraries in Ontario. However, I did mention in a previous post that the Ministry of Education of Ontario does have some limited oversight.

[suds]

9 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Can be said for every candidate for all elections?.

Maybe we would not have had to suffer with Trudeau for 3 elections??  LOL

Try this sometime....  before any municipal election ask someone who they're voting for mayor and they'll likely have an answer. Ask them who they're voting for as councillor and they'll be less likely. Ask them who they're voting for as school board trustee and in most cases you're probably asking for too much.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 9/18/2023 at 7:41 PM, Michael Hardner said:

The trustees don't really decide what is in the curriculum though.  And the real activists are the extreme posters such as the ones above who lie that porn is given to children.

When it comes down to it, the majority supports the curriculum with minor changes.

  Depends if you consider the visual depiction of gay sex acts in school libraries as "pornographic".   I wouldn't call it a "lie".

I, personally, would never want to expose such material to student minors, at least without the consent of parents, and even then I wouldn't be comfortable.  It's an interesting debate on what "art" should be allowed or not in school libraries.  What is age-appropriate?  A bit of raunchy stuff in the book "classics" isn't a big deal to me, but they're also classics and also just text, and aren't especially political in intent.

Probably a good idea to try to avoid visual nudity that is sexualized.  So pee-pee anatomy and venus de milo is fine, gay blowjobs not so much.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, suds said:

 

From this I would have to say it lies mainly in the hands of the trustees to decide what goes into the school libraries in Ontario. 

I don't see how you got that from the excerpt.

3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 1. Depends if you consider the visual depiction of gay sex acts in school libraries as "pornographic".   I wouldn't call it a "lie".

...gay blowjobs not so much.

Can you cite the gay blowjobs thing?

[Moonlight Graham]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

This explains some of how non textbook reading material is selected.  There are provincial and local guidelines, and it seems that the librarian is expected to follow them

 

https://www.canadianschoollibraries.ca/collection-diversity-toolkit/guidelines-procedures/

Seems reasonable enough guidelines.  More reasonable than "remove anything that could offend anyone in 2023".

[Moonlight Graham]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't see how you got that from the excerpt.

Can you cite the gay blowjobs thing?

Book is called "Gender Queer", can be googled.

Apparently there's books that teach how to perform gay sex acts.  The author argues if they teach about hetero acts they should teach about gay acts or its homophobia, which is a valid argument, but I personally don't remember being taught how to perform acts, I do remember learning about anatomy and how procreation works.  Hetero blowjobs weren't taught from my memory but I could be wrong, and definitely no visual guides LOL.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tampa-school-sex-book/

 

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Book is called "Gender Queer", can be googled.

Apparently there's books that teach how to perform gay sex acts.  The author argues if they teach about hetero acts they should teach about gay acts or its homophobia, which is a valid argument, but I personally don't remember being taught how to perform acts, I do remember learning about anatomy and how procreation works.  Hetero blowjobs weren't taught from my memory but I could be wrong, and definitely no visual guides LOL.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tampa-school-sex-book/

 

I was able to find this explanation. Informative.

 

A lot of people posting on this thread were wrong about some things, including me.

[suds]

15 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't see how you got that from the excerpt.

1. The Ministry of Education requires school districts to develop their own guidelines and procedures for the selection of educational resources that are not on the ministry's list of approved textbooks.
2. From the OP, Ontario's education minister instructed the Peel District School Board (not the librarian) to stop its so-called 'weeding' of school libraries.
3. The President of the Ontario School Board Association has publicly stated that "They (the trustees) make all the decisions regarding all the policies of a school board."

It certainly sounds clear to me that it's the trustees that set school district policy and approve reading lists or anything of that nature that are beyond the ministry's list of approved textbooks. Librarians likely have a say but it's the trustees who are ultimately held accountable by the public (and the ministry) and it's only right that they should be. You seem to have this idea that they shouldn't be held accountable. Please explain in more detail if possible.