Ontario Teachers to go on Strike Again

[Michael Hardner]

https://osg.ca/top-10-most-dangerous-occupations-in-ontario/

https://www.thepromoter.ca/news/2020/2/12/most-violent-jobs-in-ontario

 

[ExFlyer]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. They used to make far less.  Less education was one reason.  And check out the hours firefighters work

2. Will read it.

3. It's a non starter to start doing a Soviet style assessment of danger vs education. Police and fire are not ranked as the most dangerous occupation in the lists I see.  Usually its fishers @eyeball

     

When risk is involve, this comparison is very relevant. I never started the comparison, you did.

Anyway, I posted that it is starting again and it seems teachers (or more specifically extremely rich unions and teachers) are using the students hostage again. Before COVID, during COVID and now again. There will never be enough money in the Education ministry to satisfy the teachers union.

Also, if the teachers want more, the government will have to get the money from somewhere. Will the union let us know who does without so more teachers can be on the sunshine list?

[Nationalist]

49 minutes ago, Boges said:

As we see with Ontario Nurses, good working conditions produce good employees.  Good nurses flock to places that pay more and treat them better. We have a nursing shortage in Ontario because the government capped their wages. 

1% annual raises in times of high inflation is not a good working condition. 

I would not suggest that being a teacher in Ontario, currently is bad. They have one of the must lucrative pensions funds in existence. But firing them all for not essentially taking a pay cut, won't attract the best teachers I reckon. 

That union has been abusing its position for years. It's time to cut it off at the knees.

[ExFlyer]

48 minutes ago, Boges said:

If we're validating wages by how dangerous the job is, why do soldiers get paid less than CEOs? 

The same reason the CEOs employees get paid less than they do. Rank has it's privileges.

The CEO did not start at the top and did not get paid that much.

The job comparison was not started by me.

You wanna be a cop (or firefighter), work day and night, weekends and summers and not get summers off and Spring and Christmas breaks and PD days like the teachers? Work only 170 days per year for $100K per year?  Sounds like a good gig to me.

[Michael Hardner]

28 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. When risk is involve, this comparison is very relevant. I never started the comparison, you did.

2. using the students hostage again. Before COVID,  

3. the government will have to get the money from somewhere.  

1.  I was talking about Union busting, and you said that certain occupations deserve more money because they are less safe.  Also I posted about workplace safety, and as you'll note police are not high on the list.

2. This is loaded language, which I already addressed.  You should address my points rather than just repeating yourself.

3. Like elimination of the drivers rebate, the increase in tax revenue... Cuts elsewhere... The government has run a surplus hasn't it?

[Michael Hardner]

This is the so-called job comparison... Nothing to do with the job, just talking about unions...

"If you're going to bust teachers, then you should bust cops and especially firefighters who never get criticized and have a sweetheart deal"

[ExFlyer]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  I was talking about Union busting, and you said that certain occupations deserve more money because they are less safe.  Also I posted about workplace safety, and as you'll note police are not high on the list.

2. This is loaded language, which I already addressed.  You should address my points rather than just repeating yourself.

3. Like elimination of the drivers rebate, the increase in tax revenue... Cuts elsewhere... The government has run a surplus hasn't it?

1. No Michael, I was providing information on what police and firefighters do all year and what teachers do in 170 days of the year. But yes some professions are inherently safer than others.

2. What did you address? I repeat because it is valid, against most counter comments. You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge it.

3. I think they had a surplus during COVID. Even though the teachers got paid for not working (don't even try to tell me they all worked online. I know too many that never worked at all. 3 are my neighbours.)

[ExFlyer]

49 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is the so-called job comparison... Nothing to do with the job, just talking about unions...

"If you're going to bust teachers, then you should bust cops and especially firefighters who never get criticized and have a sweetheart deal"

Michael, if you ask anyone which job is riskier, cop, firefighter of teach, I think teacher would come in last.

As for union busting, I am all for it. Unions served a purpose once but now,,it is just another money and power grabbing industry.

EDIT: there is lots of accusations of dictatorship in Ontario and especially in the fed government but to me, the unions in Canada are as close to a dictatorships as in any country with a proclaimed dictatorship.

Edited August 16, 2023 by ExFlyer
Add to comment

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Michael, if you ask anyone which job is riskier, cop, firefighter of teach, I think teacher would come in last.

As for union busting, I am all for it. Unions served a purpose once but now,,it is just another money and power grabbing industry.

Job wise, I'd rather be a firefighter first, cop second.

They couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

1. No Michael, I was providing information on what police and firefighters do all year  

2. What did you address? I repeat because it is valid, against most counter comments. You seem to be unwilling to acknowledge it.

3. I think they had a surplus during COVID. Even though the teachers got paid for not working (don't even try to tell me they all worked online. I know too many that never worked at all. 3 are my neighbours.)

1. Recap: "Lemme see, how many teachers solve crime or put themselves in danger?"

2. Restated: Salaries go up, because inflation is a thing.  If employers try to cut real wages, then no one should expect a union to simply accept that.

3. We're in surplus.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-to-run-large-budget-surpluses-fiscal-watchdog-says/

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

4. Michael, if you ask anyone which job is riskier, cop, firefighter of teach, I think teacher would come in last.

5. As for union busting, I am all for it. Unions served a purpose once but now,,it is just another money and power grabbing industry.

EDIT: there is lots of accusations of dictatorship in Ontario and especially in the fed government but to me, the unions in Canada are as close to a dictatorships as in any country with a proclaimed dictatorship.

4. That's why you don't go and ask anyone. Because they repeat common fallacies such as what you have written.

Best to ask scientists and experts. Conservatives believe in institutions.

5. Ok

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Recap: "Lemme see, how many teachers solve crime or put themselves in danger?"

2. Restated: Salaries go up, because inflation is a thing.  If employers try to cut real wages, then no one should expect a union to simply accept that.

3. We're in surplus.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-to-run-large-budget-surpluses-fiscal-watchdog-says/

4. That's why you don't go and ask anyone. Because they repeat common fallacies such as what you have written.

Best to ask scientists and experts. Conservatives believe in institutions.

5. Ok

 

Michael, I think we went round and round on this the last time.

You know my position on this so if you are tired of me repeating, I think you need to stop now:)

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Michael, I think we went round and round on this the last time.

You know my position on this so if you are tired of me repeating, I think you need to stop now:)

Ok.  You kind of summed it up when you said you wanted to bust the unions.

We will be back in the 1930s if that happens but it is great for me personally.  Uneducated folks will have even fewer chances to make a living in policing, emergency services and so on.  Teachers , nurses and doctors will be working poor or not much better.  

All good.

[Moonbox]

On 8/15/2023 at 1:49 PM, ExFlyer said:

Already one of if not the highest paid and for sure a gold plated pension and all the benefits as well as only having to work for what? 170 days a year??

Among the top paid teachers in the world, working 6 hour days for 9 months a year.  ?

Yes, yes, they mark papers etc, and some of them prepare lessons (most don't beyond downloading it from a website), but it it's for the children.  ?

The timing here is pretty awful.  Folks are worried about recession, inflation is tapering off, and the teachers are going to pretend they are arguing about class sizes and want indexed wage increases to keep up with inflation, but I don't think (or hope) that the public is going to buy it.  

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, Moonbox said:

  

The timing here is pretty awful.  Folks are worried about recession, inflation is tapering off, 

Exactly, so why did the government pick this time to not negotiate?

Are the teachers asking for something new other than the usual inflation rays and support for training? I don't think so, at least I haven't heard that.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Exactly, so why did the government pick this time to not negotiate?

Are the teachers asking for something new other than the usual inflation rays and support for training? I don't think so, at least I haven't heard that.

I think you have that wrong Michael.

"Since last July, OECTA has had 28 bargaining dates. The Ontario Secondary School Teachers' Federation (OSSTF) has had 25."

The government said they have had dozens of negotiation days already and have more scheduled. The union did not deny that.

"“With respect to the offer, we've been negotiating. We've had over 170 meetings with our education unions,” Lecce said."

170 meetings and it was just about wages???  Something is not smelling good here LOL

One thing the union wants is a raise and also tie it to inflation. When inflation is up, they want more. Who gets that??

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Michael Hardner]

36 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

 

170 meetings and it was just about wages???  Something is not smelling good here LOL

One thing the union wants is a raise and also tie it to inflation. When inflation is up, they want more. Who gets that??

 

It's called a COLA, cost of living allowance.

Lots of people get it, probably most, but most have to ask their boss for it, otherwise you lose spending power.

If they're asking for a COLA to be permanent, that's unreasonable but I haven't heard that... at all.

I'm not in a union but my company policy is for an annual COLA , although it can be rescinded.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[ExFlyer]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's called a COLA, cost of living allowance.

Lots of people get it, probably most, but most have to ask their boss for it, otherwise you lose spending power.

If they're asking for a COLA to be permanent, that's unreasonable but I haven't heard that... at all.

I'm not in a union but my company policy is for an annual COLA , although it can be rescinded.

No, lots of employees do not get it.

COLA is generally a term used for pensions, not to annual salaries. I am not even sure buitI do not think negotiated salary contracts have COLA

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/collective-bargaining-data/wages/wages-listing-cola-month.html

And yes, they are asking to have it tied to the annual salary.

Edited August 17, 2023 by ExFlyer

[Moonbox]

37 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's called a COLA, cost of living allowance.

Yes, I know, but with or without the COLA, they're still at the very top of compensation globally.

In a unionized public sector monopoly, this is the only way that the government can bring things to more reasonable levels.  

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

. I am not even sure buitI do not think negotiated salary contracts have COLA

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/collective-bargaining-data/wages/wages-listing-cola-month.html

And yes, they are asking to have it tied to the annual salary.

Okay, fair point. Both of these statements need more research though.

26 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

 

In a unionized public sector monopoly, this is the only way that the government can bring things to more reasonable levels.  

If they were going to do that, the approach would have to be different from what they're doing now.

This is just more fiddling, which will lead to a work to rule and pain and eventually a negotiated settlement through an arbitrator or some of the usual..

[ExFlyer]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Okay, fair point. Both of these statements need more research though.

If they were going to do that, the approach would have to be different from what they're doing now.

This is just more fiddling, which will lead to a work to rule and pain and eventually a negotiated settlement through an arbitrator or some of the usual..

The statements are cut and paste from news articles.

What approach? The government has sat with the union 170 times as I linked.. They did not do that all in a week. This has been going on for a very long time.

[Michael Hardner]

42 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. The statements are cut and paste from news articles.

2. What approach? The government has sat with the union 170 times as I linked.. They did not do that all in a week. This has been going on for a very long time.

1. My comment was based on your stated uncertainty.

2. Approach currently being used.  I have nothing to say about the they said they said about the attempted negotiations, except it happens pretty much all the time. 

What is clear is that we're not seeing some attempt to bust the union, or to bring all the public service he means to their knees. It's just more of the same old.

I honestly don't think we disagree much, there's really not much to discuss here. Go ahead and post if you want the last word, thanks.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Michael Hardner

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

If they were going to do that, the approach would have to be different from what they're doing now.

How so?  

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is just more fiddling, which will lead to a work to rule and pain and eventually a negotiated settlement through an arbitrator or some of the usual..

Both sides have to agree to arbitration.  I think the government has the strong hand here.  The Liberals are still a gutter party in Ontario.  Ford has been a (relatively?) stable hand, and aside from the Greenbelt fiasco he doesn't have any egg on his face.  This has Mike Harris vibes all over it from my perspective, and the Teacher's Union will send their PR spin in every direction, but ultimately most folk in Ontario aren't going to feel sorry for people who earn +$100k for less than nine months of work each year and iron-clad job security, as we potentially head into recession.    

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. How so?  

2. ... aside from the Greenbelt fiasco he doesn't have any egg on his face. 

3. ... ultimately most folk in Ontario aren't going to feel sorry for people who earn +$100k for less than nine months of work each year and iron-clad job security, as we potentially head into recession.    

1. More of a legislative approach, I would think.  Although maybe they're going to try to use the notwithstanding clause.

2. The Chuds have abandoned him and the Greenbelt thing is pretty new, potentially big.

3. I have read this before.  Teachers work nights too, and in the summer for prep.   Again, these things are just being repeated again, which enforces my belief that this is more same old...

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. The Chuds have abandoned him and the Greenbelt thing is pretty new, potentially big.

The Chuds have abandoned him for what?  For who?  The Greenbelt thing stinks, but I don't think we yet know how big the story is.  

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. I have read this before.  Teachers work nights too, and in the summer for prep.   Again, these things are just being repeated again, which enforces my belief that this is more same old...

Take whatever work the teachers say they're doing in the summer, and divide that by 100, and you'll get a more realistic number.  The idea that most of them are working substantial hours in the summer (beyond occasional course-work that qualifies them for a higher pay-scale) is a farce.  

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. The Chuds have abandoned him for what?  For who? 

2. The Greenbelt thing stinks, but I don't think we yet know how big the story is.  

3. Take whatever work the teachers say they're doing in the summer, and divide that by 100, and you'll get a more realistic number.  

1. For doing nothing but complaining.  What their[sic]best at.

2. Agreed.

3. Ok, so you think they are liars.  There are things written down that back up what actually happens.

. . . like extracurricular activities, and prep week, and working in the evening.

Again, this feels familiar and I don't think that I have much more to say, so I'll give you the last word.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Michael Hardner