Canadian Defence News

[BeaverFever]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Joe Biden confuses Zelensky for Putin

LOL !

you are going down in flames, you leftist Communist traitors

the future is Trump's boot stamping on your faces forever

Not relevant to this forum please take elsewhere 

[ExFlyer]

9 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Not relevant to this forum please take elsewhere 

That is doogie again....he is always off topic or off century LOL

[Dougie93]

19 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

1) Covert surveillance of, as opposed to interdiction …Canada has done this even with its old Oberon class subs

2) RCMP, Coast Guard no jurisdiction outside of territorial waters. Some situations require military eg Operation Megaphone

https://cimsec.org/sea-control-174-operation-megaphone/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Megaphone

speaking of HM RCN submarines

this is an interesting video

SSK-878 HMCS Corner Brook

showing off the modernized control room

with upgraded AN/BYG-1 fire control & AN/BQQ-10 CBASS SONAR

 

[ExFlyer]

So, Canada is going to buy up to 12 submarines.

All diesel powered.

By 2035 Canada is supposed to be banning fossil fuel powered vehicles. We won't even have the first diesel powered sub by then.

Just another Liberal won't have to worry about it promise because  they will be punted out next election  LOL

Just ashow business promise to appease the NATO summit folks .

[herbie]

Maybe PP will change that to 12 nuclear subs and satisfy NATO for the next century or so. Or we could ask Tesla to submit bids for the subs....

Funny how everyone's been totally convinced that a country's contribution to NATO is only measured in dollars.

[ExFlyer]

4 minutes ago, herbie said:

Maybe PP will change that to 12 nuclear subs and satisfy NATO for the next century or so. Or we could ask Tesla to submit bids for the subs....

Funny how everyone's been totally convinced that a country's contribution to NATO is only measured in dollars.

Well, how else are you going to prove your commitment? Canada has promised but never produced.

[herbie]

Hmm troops in Latvia mean nothing. The aid to Ukraine means nothing. Our geographic location means nothing. The troops that died in Afghanistan mean nothing.

I mean if Trump returns he better boot out Iceland they don't even have an army and their strategic location obviously means sweet f*ck all.
And half the country buys the Glorious All Powerful Yank speak of how they've saved us from bogeymen all these years and should be ashamed. I mean think about it, the only country that actually could invade us, that would protect themselves by shooting down incoming missiles and bombers on top of our heads lectures us? Sorry, don't buy that, never have.

A few subs to guard the NWP would be ok. If they're prepared to protect the Arctic from the real threat and be ready to torpedo American oil tankers.

[ExFlyer]

21 minutes ago, herbie said:

Hmm troops in Latvia mean nothing. The aid to Ukraine means nothing. Our geographic location means nothing. The troops that died in Afghanistan mean nothing.

I mean if Trump returns he better boot out Iceland they don't even have an army and their strategic location obviously means sweet f*ck all.
And half the country buys the Glorious All Powerful Yank speak of how they've saved us from bogeymen all these years and should be ashamed. I mean think about it, the only country that actually could invade us, that would protect themselves by shooting down incoming missiles and bombers on top of our heads lectures us? Sorry, don't buy that, never have.

A few subs to guard the NWP would be ok. If they're prepared to protect the Arctic from the real threat and be ready to torpedo American oil tankers.

I believe we have used sending troops as part of our NATO commitment forever. We do the same thing for our UN commitment.

Unfortunately you are being emotional. Troops dying is a given, not a dollar amount.

Geographic location is meaningless as well. We do not have to belong topNATO if we do not want be but, we wanted membership.

Trump is a red herring, nothing to do with us.

Bottom line, what we NATO countries are committed to spend on their Military is what is mandated and we have never (or only once) met that mandate.

[Dougie93]

On 7/11/2024 at 9:31 PM, BeaverFever said:

Covert surveillance of, as opposed to interdiction …Canada has done this even with its old Oberon class subs

in this day & age, that would more efficiently be conducted by drones

Canada is not a submarine offensive nation

in that, sinking enemy ships is of no particular utility to Canada

since Canada is basically going to be in a defensive role on the high seas against the sinking of ships

thus, if Canada was going to spend billions on warships

better off to invest in multi-role vessels

expeditionary transports / drone carriers

the Portuguese have already embarked on such a project

it's a hybrid platform

could be be employed as an LHD

could be employed to carry UAS

could be employed as a mothership for USV & UUV

in terms of search & destroy, you let the drones fight that battle

but you retain the option to conduct Canada's primary role, which is expeditionary operations

to wit, Rick Hillier's Big Honkin' Ship ; 21st century style

Australia is even developing the drones to operate from it, as we speak

Edited July 13, 2024 by Dougie93

[I am Groot]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:04 PM, BeaverFever said:

And yet when we were in a similar situation with Trudeau the Elder back in the 1970s we hit 2% of GDP after brow-beating from our allies. During a trade mission to West Germany the Chancellor told him “no tanks, no trade” and Canada soon afterwards bought the Leopard 1 fleet.  A fleet of CF-18s came soon afterwards. So perhaps there are still levers to pull and consequences to be had. 

I suspect that the allies will get together and someone will quietly inform the Trudeau government that if he doesn't pull up his colorful socks there will be an open move to boot Canada from the G7 next year as our poor economy has now fallen behind other countries and we no longer deserve to be in the G7. That would be a humiliation to Trudeau in an election year, and thus give him the only kind of motivation he ever uses to justify spending money - his own election prospects. 

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Hmm troops in Latvia mean nothing. The aid to Ukraine means nothing. Our geographic location means nothing. The troops that died in Afghanistan mean nothing.

ALL NATO nations sent troops to Afghanistan and suffered casualties there. There are 20 NATO nations with troops in the Baltics. 

The difference is, their troops are properly equipped and supported, and there are more behind them if needed. Neither is the case with Canada. 

 

 

[herbie]

OMG Dougie93's talking some common sense.

It's 2024 and everything defence can be done with sensors, satelites, missiles and drones. And geeks, we need like the 1st Saskatoon Cybergeek Division.
Don't need a big fleet of subs or any big ships.

And a small Rapid Deployment Force and a few transport ships & cargo planes to move them in.

Asides from having a nice large place to train NATO troops, a handful of otherwise useless tanks.

[I am Groot]

3 minutes ago, herbie said:

OMG Dougie93's talking some common sense.

It's 2024 and everything defence can be done with sensors, satelites, missiles and drones. And geeks, we need like the 1st Saskatoon Cybergeek Division.

And then they figure out how to jam your drones and you're defenseless. 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

in this day & age, that would more efficiently be conducted by drones

I did say earlier they need to fully evaluate unmanned/autonomous options. That goes for all branches of service most procurement projects.   A drone can’t land a boarding party or embark special operations. 
 

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

in that, sinking enemy ships is of no particular utility to Canada

Theres a whole spectrum of force where sinking a ship is at the extreme end. Whether at home or overseas, they can offer credible deterrence, ISR, interdiction, special forces 

 

53 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I suspect that the allies will get together and someone will quietly inform the Trudeau government that if he doesn't pull up his colorful socks there will be an open move to boot Canada from the G7 next year as our poor economy has now fallen behind other countries and we no longer deserve to be in the G7. That would be a humiliation to Trudeau in an election year, and thus give him the only kind of motivation he ever uses to justify spending money - his own election prospects. 

It was after all our very own foreign minister Lester B Pearson, who helped shape NATO during its founding by insisting that it not just be a military alliance but a forum for economic and diplomatic relations so it’s fair game for them to pressure us. 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, BeaverFever said:

I did say earlier they need to fully evaluate unmanned/autonomous options. That goes for all branches of service most procurement projects.   A drone can’t land a boarding party or embark special operations. 
 

Theres a whole spectrum of force where sinking a ship is at the extreme end. Whether at home or overseas, they can offer credible deterrence, ISR, interdiction, special forces 

 

It was after all our very own foreign minister Lester B Pearson, who helped shape NATO during its founding by insisting that it not just be a military alliance but a forum for economic and diplomatic relations so it’s fair game for them to pressure us. 

again,  the drone carrier platform is dual use

let the drones hunt the submarines

at all other times it is an LHD for Canada's preferred stability Operations role 

in terms of ISR, deterrence & SF, the submarine is an astronomically expensive platform for that role

a submarine program is a space program, an inner space program

which Canada simply cannot afford based on what the Canadian taxpayer is willing to spend

this submarine program will collapse under the weight of that, once the Canadian media reports the costs

so it's going to be just another unrealistic failed program to throw upon the pyre

it's not the same country that Lester Boyes Pearson led

Canadians are not willing to sink other nation's ships with torpedoes

since Canadians, despite their general naivete, understand how that is not in Canada's interests

the Post National State is a reality, and it is in fact a hermit kingdom

doesn't matter what the Military Industrial Complex in Washington threatens Canada with

Canadians will not fund rendering unto American Caesar, no matter what the consequences

[Dougie93]

this is one of those rare occasions wherein I agree with Justin Trudeau

there is nothing in the 1949 Washington Treaty which requires that Canada spend 2% GDP

that is merely a Memorandum of Understanding

which Canada is fully within its prerogatives to set aide

just like America breaks deals with its allies all the time

Canada should not be timid in the face of the warmongers in Washington demanding more for the MIC

Canada should man up and tell Washington to go f*ck itself

since that is what Americans do to Canada, anytime Canada even meekly makes a request of them

what, you think they are going to punish you on trade ?

wise up, they were going to that anyways, and they will do it even if you render the 2% unto American Caesar

 

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

ALL NATO nations sent troops to Afghanistan and suffered casualties there.

well, except all the European NATO countries invoked caveats wherein their troops would not fight

 only naive Canada joined the Americans, British & Australians at the tip of the spear

Canada charged into Kandahar, completely unprepared, for NATO Article V

while the Europeans hung back and let our boys take the brunt of it

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

And then they figure out how to jam your drones and you're defenseless. 

except AI is advancing at such a pace,

that the drones can already find their way to the targets without remote control

the ASW mission is actually quite simple for a computer in this day & age

drop sonobouy's in a patterned search

dip the sonar upon contact

if it is a submarine, drop the homing torpedo

that's child's play for the algorithms in use these days, in civilian world, never mind military

[Dougie93]

we are in a state of flux right now

the Ukraine war is a demonstration how drones are already the arm of decision

drones in Ukraine are demonstrating that First Cold War weapon systems from the 1980's are completely obselete

and those drones haven't even been programmed with AI yet

the last thing that the Canadian taxpayer should do right now

it spend billions of dollars on weapon systems which are forty years out of date

now is actually the time to wait out, and see how the drone war progresses

the military should only be investing in robotics & AI at the strategic level

at the tactical level. invest in the Militia, boots on the ground to defend your hearths & homes

if I must die for my home and land, my spirit shall not falter

here's my heart and here's my hand upon my country's alter

but if I should die on the battlefield,

who will protect my wife & child and care for my aged mother ?

Edited July 13, 2024 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

On 7/11/2024 at 5:54 PM, BeaverFever said:

They lurk off the North American coast, in international waters, especially spy ships disguised as commercial vessels.

not off the Canadian coast

in fact, the Russians are focusing those efforts in the North Sea

none the less, they must understand that an attack against the Strategic Lines of Communication

will result in World War Three

what is deterring them from that ?

surely not anything Canada does

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, herbie said:

 If they're prepared to protect the Arctic from the real threat and be ready to torpedo American oil tankers.

wow

who knew you were such a Confederate ?

Deo Vindice

[Venandi]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

It's 2024 and everything defence can be done with sensors, satelites, missiles and drones.

I've flown UAVs while deployed, very capable, enjoyed the experience, the technology is cool and there's no doubt that having them saved Canadian lives in Afghanistan. 

Even so, I have this ingrained and lingering "old guy" fear that over reliance on technology creates vulnerabilities and the more you rely on the technology the more you have to account for those vulnerabilities. I've seen the effect of not doing that over and over again.

It even applies to everyday life, cut a fibre optic cable by accident and the fallout can be significant. No internet, no 911, no cell service, no banking, no scanning items at the grocery store, no flights other than self dispatch (and airlines don't do that), no gas, etc etc.

Huge regional impact right down to traffic lights during rush hour.

If the mission computer fails during a critical ASW event now what? Old timers practice this stuff regularly and when they do, young guys on the crew usually roll their eyes. Things like plotting boards and using smoke markers as a visual references sometimes saves the day. If you drop an electrical bus and all you have is INS an immediate switch to maps and lat/ long is easy if you've practiced it. Not so easy if you haven't. 

The scenarios are endless, I could write a book on degraded ops and ruin your whole day on a check ride...  so, while it needs to be practiced, there's no need to be crazy about it. That said, defence in depth is more than just words.

The HUD's a great thing, HUD cripples aren't.

Sometimes a hand on the stick, one on the throttle, feet on the rudder pedals, lining the target up between your legs and putting  grease pencil marks on the canopy wins the day... some here might be surprised at how often it proves true. One thing seems to be a constant though, it's only guys with grey hair that carry grease pencils. 

Watch for them, if nothing else, the reason they do is sure to be entertaining.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Venandi

[herbie]

You don't need to cut cables and launch missiles. ONE good EMP and we're all f^cked.
But if that happened no one else can launch missiles or drones at us either, and they still can't cross the Arctic, Atlantic or Pacific unnoticed to invade.

[Venandi]

14 minutes ago, herbie said:

You don't need to cut cables and launch missiles. ONE good EMP and we're all f^cked.

The outer limits of catastrophic possibilities are often cited but rarely the problem... it's the little things.

They happen when they're least welcome, least expected, and judging by your response, with a frequency that might surprise you.  

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Venandi

[Dougie93]

14 minutes ago, herbie said:

You don't need to cut cables and launch missiles. ONE good EMP and we're all f^cked.
But if that happened no one else can launch missiles or drones at us either, and they still can't cross the Arctic, Atlantic or Pacific unnoticed to invade.

all military hardware is EMP hardened

EMP would have no effect on the TRIAD