Army Guy Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 15 hours ago, BeaverFever said: It’s one platform for both light and Heavy, based on Mercedes Zetros. Both will use the same chassis, and they say 90% commonality between the light and heavy. From the images the two mostly look identical except the Heavy has 8 wheels instead of 4. I assume it must have a more powerful engine brakes etc. compared to the light. I don’t know much about military trucks but it appears that Germany and Australia use both the MAN and the Zetros. We also have the Armoured Heavy Support System, the big heavy Optimus Prime looking armoured transport trucks bases on Mercedes Actros that we bought for Afghanistan and them put into long term storage after. Apparently a number of them are being brought back to life and readied for Latvia. The once again they have decided to replace a 1 1/2 ton LSVW with a 2 1/2 tone truck, bigger is always better, as todays logistics get more complicated and we are renowned for not buying enough to start with...the whole replacing of the SMP fleet project confuses everyone, but remember funding is and was tight and they needed heavy trucks bad....as for the heavy trucks Zetros were not really designed to cover that , can't even come close to the MANN trucks and space and tonnage they are able to carry, it would have made more sense to have the Zetros replace the MLVW's...but then one would have to ask why...when the MANN fleet covers every thing from 2 ton trucks to 25 tons, with 80 % commonality across the entire fleet... The existing Actros fleet have been used a lot, and put away wet, Afghan roads leave a lot to be desired, and those are paved, and yet a lot of the road net work is dirt or off road roads........and in their prime they were hard to beat for the capability including armor cabs,survivability ... but today, they are old news, and many truck manufacture offer something way better. including the new Actros fleet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 16 Author Report Share Posted January 16 7 hours ago, Army Guy said: You talk as if it can't be done, when history shows it has already been done,by the Japanese during WWII, a small force about brigade size landed and remained fighting for 3 months...against a US and Canadian force of roughly 34.000 troops...It does not take a huge force to tie up thousands of NATO troops...Afghanis proved that already... Our north is not patrolled 24 /7 landing a brigade size or larger force would be easy, the problem would be logistics, but in todays world that could be accomplished by several means. Russia has designed equipment for this very purpose artic warfare, these vehicles can haul troops, fuel, whatever you want and wherever they want, they are designed to swim, deep snow, even large crevices...Once inland our patrols never sweep that far inland but concentrate on coastal areas...once inland they could be used to set up a series of FOBs filled with fuel and other supplies...to operate even longer or to provide supplies for a much larger force...these are not new concepts but ones we use when up in the artic...even in Afghanistan in the mountains or open desert....and as far as heavy tanks and IFV's you don't need them to fight ...you think the us has heavy tanks , IFV on deep artic operations...not really...more like Airborne troops, light infantry...light equipment like BV210 or 206, snow mobiles and skies...it is what we use..and somehow we are suppose to be the experts in artic warfare... Us and Russia do it all the time, travel the north without us knowing about it, including surface ships, how does that happen, like everything else in our military artic surveillance is broken...and the US does not monitor great swaths of Canadian artic...Once they provide a foot hold it would take a huge assault force to dig them out...Russia could do this all day everyday... If you want to see these vehicles in action just go to u tube, their capabilities would easily handle any artic terrain including open water... swamp, muskeg, etc... Like I said I’m skeptical that they would be able to land any significant force in the arctic mainland given lack of ports and airfields. And I’m skeptical that any country could pull off the logistics of such a long distance invasion over any terrain much less our arctic. Those vehicles you show all need lots of fuel and maintenance equipment and personnel and the only way to bring those in is with more vehicles that also require lots of maintenance equipment and personnel it doesn’t seem plausible that they could mobilize such a large force without Canadian or allied intelligence noticing the mobilization in Russia much less the arriving undetected in Canada mainland especially considering how slow ships have to sail in those waters. Sure they could technically be capable of seizing some remote unpopulated islands or maybe a mainland coastal village if there were somehow no resistance - which is what the Japanese did. But I don’t think they could takeover Canada as a whole even if they were not being resisted. Separate note: Canada does have space based arctic surveillance, the most current program, Polar Epsilon 2, based on 3 new RADARSAT satellites launched in 2019, replacing an earlier Polar Epsilon program. PE2 achieved full operational capability in June 2022. Reportedly, the satellites pass the arctic 4 times per day. “The capability is an all-weather, day-and-night space-based system that enables the Canadian Armed Forces to identify and track vessels in Canada’s maritime and Arctic regions, supporting both national and international expeditionary operations.” https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2022/08/polar-epsilon-full-operational-capability.html https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/canada-aims-improve-arctic-surveillance-capabilities But PE2 isn’t the only set of eyes Canada has in space and surely even the civilian scientific one could spot an invasion force Which satellites are used to observe the Arctic? RADARSAT Constellation Mission and RADARSAT-2: To facilitate marine surveillance, ice monitoring, disaster management, ecosystem monitoring, resource management and mapping in Canada and around the world. M3MSat: To locate ships and manage marine traffic from space. SMOS: To map sea surface salinity, monitor soil moisture on a global scale, better understand the water cycle, and map snow- and ice-covered areas. SWOT (in development): To observe ocean surfaces and measure how lakes, rivers, reservoirs and oceans are changing over time. THEMIS mission: To observe and measure disturbances in Earth's magnetic field. https://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/satellites/everyday-lives/space-serving-the-arctic-and-the-great-canadian-north.asp# But most importantly Russia will never attack or invade any NATO country because it doesn’t want a war with NATO. It can’t even win a war with Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) the Russians are running out of tanks the Ukrainians are running out of shells neither side can achieve air supremacy hence all is reduced back to a stalemate in the trenches therein thus in the event of all out war all these exquisite technological weapons are a rapidly depleted faster than they can be produced at which point, the arm of decision will once again be HM Royal Canadian Infantry Corps those Loyalist Orangemen of Upper Canada those Guardians of Confederation still willing to go over the top when the whistle blows Regiment, Colours, Commander-in-Chief God, King, Country hear the Pirbroch sounding loud & clear Ducimus Edited January 19 by Dougie93 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: at which point, the arm of decision will once again be HM Royal Canadian Infantry Corps And drones and autonomous machines. Maybe we’ll see the invention a small and silent self-driving battery powered trench-clearing machine, barely knee-high, that looks like a heavily armoured footlocker on tracks with shotgun and a LMG barrels sticking out the front and back. It just quietly slips the into the trench and works its way through killing everything it sees then detonates a high fragmentation explosive if it determines it can’t return to base. The real life Terminator origin story! WB Dougie Edited January 19 by BeaverFever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 16 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: And drones and autonomous machines. Maybe we’ll see the invention a small and silent self-driving battery powered trench-clearing machine, barely knee-high, that looks like a heavily armoured footlocker on tracks with shotgun and a LMG barrels sticking out the front and back. It just quietly slips the into the trench and works its way through killing everything it sees then detonates a high fragmentation explosive if it determines it can’t return to base. The real life Terminator origin story! WB Dougie in the Great War before the Somme the chain of command had surmised that they had found the ultimate weapon the new artillery, breach loading rapid fire so technologically advanced this new super weapon, that it would win the war unto itself and so the Soldiers of the Crown were told, that once the barrage went in, it would be a walkover thus the troops were ordered ; don't run, just walk, as the Germans will be helpless in the face of it steel my soldiers hearts for war Cuidich 'n RIgh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, BeaverFever said: The real life Terminator origin story! a wunderwaffen is only decisive if it is introduced in the midst of a war by surprise if the wunderwaffen is easily produced by both sides that is not decisive everybody has drones, they are ubiquitous thus it is a stalemate once again in the trenches of the Western Front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) On 12/21/2023 at 1:46 PM, Army Guy said: Drones are the future in many Airforce future ops we should be getting on board faster than we are. yet the most effective drone operations are being conducted by the infantry as the drone threat comes in under the coverage, below the air force level of operations hand held drones delivering a hand grenade equivalent warhead are doing the most damage said kamikaze drones are more like mortars than they are like airpower any drone being utilized by air forces are easily shot down, it's just an unmanned aircraft, which is a sitting duck the truly dangerous drones are man portable, launched from the trenches because they're so small, 3D printed and handed out to the troops at the Section & Platoon level there is no "air defence" designed to counter them although the only reason these hand held drones are becoming decisive is that nobody is able to win the war at the strategic level by striking deep into the enemy's rear with airpower if either side tries to fly their air force over enemy held territory, they just get shot down so both sides are resorting to drones as a last resort at the tactical level yet what we know from the World Wars, is that you can't win the land war at all, until you have won the air war the whole war is won or lost at the strategic level, by striking the enemy industrial capacity, or not if you are not striking the enemy at the source of production then you are simply rendered back to a stalemate in the trenches by default it is only when you can bypass the enemy trenches to destroy his capacity to produce armies in the first place that you actually win the war Edited January 19 by Dougie93 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) On 1/15/2024 at 12:14 PM, BeaverFever said: I’m just saying they can’t invade mainland Canada like they did Ukraine. Our economic interests and sovereignty are at risk but Canadian people are not at risk of falling under Russian rule like Crimea. indeed, the "arctic invasion" scenario is unrealistic to the absurd the number of troops which could be supported logistically in the arctic would be so few they would end up outnumbered, outgunned and surrounded, even by the Canadian military the threat to Canada is in the streets of the major urban centres primarily Islamic Jihadists launching mass casualty terrorist attacks thus, once again, the arm of decision for the Defence of Canada is not F-35's, nor warships, nor drones it's CANSOFCOM & the Militia boots on the ground in the streets in Aid to the Civil Power even if the Regular Force is taking the lead as Battalion Headquarters the Regular Force Battalions are so under strength half the mobilized force would have to be Militia Augmentees Edited January 19 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 Army has two variants in development for the next modular assault rifle Jan 7, 2024 | Equipment, News, Procurement … Since 2017, the Army has moved ahead with the new C20 and C21 sniper rifles and is now introducing the Sig Sauer P320 as its new pistol of choice, designated the C22. But replacing its Colt Canada C7 family of standard-length assault rifles and shorter and lighter C8 carbines remains a work in progress. Both have proven effective in various theatres of operation, but they have been in service for more than three decades. Major Carl Gendron, who directs the Army’s small arms and light weapons program, says their effectiveness has been eroded over the years by simple wear and tear. He told Canadian Army Today that Canada has reached a point within NATO, where it ranks near the bottom in terms of assault rifle modernity. “We’re not competitive with what’s been available for the last 20 years and they do start to degrade with time.” Most NATO countries have “moved on” and Canada is “overdue to bring its capabilities up to speed,” he said. Gendron warned that “our operators who use their assault rifles for dismounted offensive operations or personal protection now risk being overmatched by adversaries using readily available technologies.” The Army’s solution is the Canadian Modular Assault Rifle (CMAR), which could be adopted to various tactical scenarios by changing components procured through Colt’s subcontractors or other certified manufacturers. The expectation is a weapon it says will “enhance the awareness, lethality and protection of deployed CAF members.”… …There is ongoing debate about the ammunition. For decades, the Canadian Army has used the 5.56 mm NATO calibre, one of five NATO time-tested standards, which range up to 12.7mm. The U.S. Army has been pushing for more combat punch with their Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW) using a new 6.8 mm cartridge. Without going into details, Gendron has acknowledged that he and his team of elite shooters, weapons technicians and engineers have shot both the NGSW’s XM7 and XM250, and are tracking the NGSW program. While not opposed to new technologies, Gendron’s response was that there are serious considerations to using magnum-level cartridges and that, until a new assault rifle cartridge is agreed upon by NATO, the 5.56 is “sufficiently potent” for how it’s used by Canadian troops.… Full story https://canadianarmytoday.com/army-has-two-variants-in-development-for-the-next-modular-assault-rifle/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 18 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Most NATO countries have “moved on” and Canada is “overdue to bring its capabilities up to speed,” he said. Gendron warned that “our operators who use their assault rifles for dismounted offensive operations or personal protection now risk being overmatched by adversaries using readily available technologies.” according to the Ukrainians, the types of small arms and crew served weapons is not that relevant the Ukrainians say the most important weapon ; is the hand grenade again, it's all gone back to a World War One style stalemate in the trenches there are long ranged artillery duels, and there is trench fighting, and not much in between thus, the Ukrainians say : he who has the most hand grenades, wins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, Dougie93 said: according to the Ukrainians, the types of small arms and crew served weapons is not that relevant the Ukrainians say the most important weapon ; is the hand grenade again, it's all gone back to a World War One style stalemate in the trenches there are long ranged artillery duels, and there is trench fighting, and not much in between thus, the Ukrainians say : he who has the most hand grenades, wins Electronic Warfare has also been key. Ukraine drives Russia back out of a most crucial territory Namely, the electromagnetic spectrum https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/19/ukraine-russia-war-electronic-warfare-ew-electromagnetic/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 15 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Electronic Warfare has also been key. indeed but the key is defending against swarming small UAS the problem with jamming them, is that you are jamming on a frequency and so that jamming can also effect your own drones as well if you are going to go out and buy kit right now what is needed is an efficient counter drone system which, due to the expense and logistics of using missiles or ammo to shoot down cheap & plentiful drones directed energy weapons are preferable to wit, the high energy laser is about to become ubiquitous on all battlefields because if you have to shoot down multi thousand dollar drones, with multi million dollar missiles at the strategic level : you are losing the war as all war is logistics in the end Edited January 19 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 24 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Ukraine drives Russia back out of a most crucial territory and yet Ivan cannot be defeated at the strategic level by these means he has suffered 300,000 casualties yet he simply went out and press ganged another 400,000 conscripts to replace them Ukraine can't keep this up indefinitely if Ukraine is not provided with a NATO STANAG air force to break the stalemate the Russians are going to win by default, just by expending their cannon fodder downrange relentlessly just by the exchange rate of casualties relative to the manpower available the government in Kiev is going to fall long before the Kremlin does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 again, what have we learned from this supposedly "futuristic" 21st century war so far ? everything is going back to the future we are back in the First World War in that, both sides have access to the same weapons, same technology, same tactics neither side has an arm of decision to effect a breakthrough of the lines it's all gone back to defence in depth, like the Imperial German Army on the Western Front in 1916 the myth of human progress, history is not linear, it's circular Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 19 Author Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dougie93 said: indeed but the key is defending against swarming small UAS the problem with jamming them, is that you are jamming on a frequency and so that jamming can also effect your own drones as well if you are going to go out and buy kit right now what is needed is an efficient counter drone system which, due to the expense and logistics of using missiles or ammo to shoot down cheap & plentiful drones directed energy weapons are preferable to wit, the high energy laser is about to become ubiquitous on all battlefields because if you have to shoot down multi thousand dollar drones, with multi million dollar missiles at the strategic level : you are losing the war as all war is logistics in the end Yeah Cdn Army podcast did a piece on counter-drone not too long ago They we’re talking about how difficult it is because drones cane be designed/made/modified to operate so differently from each other that there’s no one defence that will stop them all and you’ll likely face a bunch of different kinds. You need an array of different laser dazzlers, jammers etc plus kinetic kill options (missiles guns etc). They also said that a lot of the systems that showed promise detecting and killing small drones in test ls unfortunately also had a tendency to to get triggered by birds, which to me is not only was an unwanted environmental effect but to the extent it reveals the system’s position or depletes its ammo, energy, generates complacency from false alarms, etc has tactical consequences as well. I think the drone threat will remain very much unsolved for several years to come at least small low-flying ones. Edited January 19 by BeaverFever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 56 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Yeah Cdn Army podcast did a piece on counter-drone not too long ago They we’re talking about how difficult it is because drones cane be designed/made/modified to operate so differently from each other that there’s no one defence that will stop them all and you’ll likely face a bunch of different kinds. You need an array of different laser dazzlers, jammers etc plus kinetic kill options (missiles guns etc). They also said that a lot of the systems that showed promise detecting and killing small drones in test ls unfortunately also had a tendency to to get triggered by birds, which to me is not only was an unwanted environmental effect but to the extent it reveals the system’s position or depletes its ammo, energy, generates complacency from false alarms, etc has tactical consequences as well. I think the drone threat will remain very much unsolved for several years to come at least small low-flying ones. whatever fray HM Royal Canadian Infantry Corps will face next this will be the threat even in terms of asymmetrical or stability operations, or in fact the Defence of Canada itself hence, if DND is going to buy kit, counter UAS seems a good investment unlikely that Canada is going to be the decisive force with F-35 or Type 26 etcetera but wherever the force is going to be deployed, for whatever reason man portable FPV drones are going to be in play it's like a flying IED all it has to do is inflict casualties and/or disable vehicles since as we saw in Afghanistan, that is in fact enough for the enemy to win the war in the end which, if that war is in defence of the Confederation itself, unlike Afghanistan, defeat is not an option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Groot Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 22 hours ago, BeaverFever said: And drones and autonomous machines. Maybe we’ll see the invention a small and silent self-driving battery powered trench-clearing machine, barely knee-high, that looks like a heavily armoured footlocker on tracks with shotgun and a LMG barrels sticking out the front and back. It just quietly slips the into the trench and works its way through killing everything it sees then detonates a high fragmentation explosive if it determines it can’t return to base. The real life Terminator origin story! WB Dougie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: Yeah why did I say tracked? Dog-bots are definitely in style! One of those things, heavily armoured, walking in crouched position with close quarters weapon(s) on it would wreak havoc in one of those long trench lines!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 6 hours ago, Dougie93 said: indeed, the "arctic invasion" scenario is unrealistic to the absurd the number of troops which could be supported logistically in the arctic would be so few they would end up outnumbered, outgunned and surrounded, even by the Canadian military the threat to Canada is in the streets of the major urban centres primarily Islamic Jihadists launching mass casualty terrorist attacks thus, once again, the arm of decision for the Defence of Canada is not F-35's, nor warships, nor drones it's CANSOFCOM & the Militia boots on the ground in the streets in Aid to the Civil Power even if the Regular Force is taking the lead as Battalion Headquarters the Regular Force Battalions are so under strength half the mobilized force would have to be Militia Augmentees Saying it is impossible or absurd fly's in the face of history, And yet it has happened, many times in WWII, and it did not take masses of men and equipment, but rather a few thousand, which ended up taking 34,000 allied troops to solve in 3 1/2 months ...Our Canadian north is a soft target...which is why the US military wants Canada to invest bils in updating our BMD defensives and establish fobs with military presence...Why does the US have so many Mil pers in Alaska...becasue there is a threat and they take it serious... We are talking about the Canadian military here the same military that closed an artic exercise down for days becasue they lost an air men on the airfield and could not find him in the fog...or the fact that Canada has delegated the defense of the artic to the reserves, who severely lack equipment or training to complete all aspects of the mission, Thats the kind of priorty that our nations puts on artic defense....not that the reg force could do any better...Bv206 only provide so much mobility, then its skidoos and skis...inuit and military force already complete long range patrols with Skidoos close to 1000 KM in length, i'm sure that could be doubled with addition assets, like a GPS cargo/ Lapse drop from a aircraft some where on the tundra...and don't need a shit load of supplies to do it...Shit RCR did a mock attack on CFS ALert, 30 infantry guys took the station in under 30 mins...and they came in by herc, with the station knowing they were coming...and there was no Para's involved, and security has not improved that much over the years...once the weapons room was captured, all they had was snowballs and shovels... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 3 hours ago, BeaverFever said: Yeah Cdn Army podcast did a piece on counter-drone not too long ago They we’re talking about how difficult it is because drones cane be designed/made/modified to operate so differently from each other that there’s no one defence that will stop them all and you’ll likely face a bunch of different kinds. You need an array of different laser dazzlers, jammers etc plus kinetic kill options (missiles guns etc). They also said that a lot of the systems that showed promise detecting and killing small drones in test ls unfortunately also had a tendency to to get triggered by birds, which to me is not only was an unwanted environmental effect but to the extent it reveals the system’s position or depletes its ammo, energy, generates complacency from false alarms, etc has tactical consequences as well. I think the drone threat will remain very much unsolved for several years to come at least small low-flying ones. Most modern SHORAD systems right now have guns plus missiles for defense, plus a variety of sensors which can detect heat, infra red, plus operator can tell if it is a drone or flock of birds...most systems do have an automatic tracking and kill option but for the most part the final sensor is the operator for that case...nothing like firing off a long burst of 35 mm over the town next to your airstrip or AO...although it would make for some good headlines. Ukrainians have having some very good success rates with the old gepard, for UAV's drones, even cruise missiles etc...Germany has also put out a fairly new SKYNET system which links in many stationary or mobile platforms or 30 mm guns...capable of taking out entire swarms but it is all gun based... There are also other kill systems such as micro wave, or lazer as you mentioned, or just plain jamming a whole series of frequencies..all proven effective at single targets but not swarms ...thats when you would turn to the guns... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: Most modern SHORAD systems right now have guns plus missiles for defense, plus a variety of sensors which can detect heat, infra red, plus operator can tell if it is a drone or flock of birds...most systems do have an automatic tracking and kill option but for the most part the final sensor is the operator for that case...nothing like firing off a long burst of 35 mm over the town next to your airstrip or AO...although it would make for some good headlines. Ukrainians have having some very good success rates with the old gepard, for UAV's drones, even cruise missiles etc...Germany has also put out a fairly new SKYNET system which links in many stationary or mobile platforms or 30 mm guns...capable of taking out entire swarms but it is all gun based... There are also other kill systems such as micro wave, or lazer as you mentioned, or just plain jamming a whole series of frequencies..all proven effective at single targets but not swarms ...thats when you would turn to the guns... Yeah but there’s no one system currently that does it all and many of the more versatile ones are semi-stationary or move on heavy flatbed trucks so have limited use in the field The US army’s SHORAD Stryker is the only combat vehicle platform that I’m aware of that has multiple effects available (stinger, 30mm and EW). I’m aware that there are similar vehicle options in development or possibly even operational mounted on tactical vehicles like the new JLTV Humvee replacement and I think I even saw ATV/off-road versions but for all of these smaller platforms tge system is multiple vehicles working together. Even so, these systems alone still don’t cover the entire spectrum of threats so you need multiple systems somehow integrated. Plus when you identify a threat you have to have a way to know which solution to use. Given that many drones can be homemade or modified in the field or a hobbyist’s garage, you might often have no way of knowing how it’s being controlled or guided and what response to deliver.l amd have a very short time to decide. And finally while the electronic/ laser defence options might blind the drone’s sensors, fry its onboard electronics or jam its communications, that doesn’t necessarily make it fall from the sky like a rock, it might still fly or glide on its existing trajectory and either still hit its target or come down on some other part of your base or position. Edited January 20 by BeaverFever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 32 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Yeah but there’s no one system currently that does it all and many of the more versatile ones are semi-stationary or move on heavy flatbed trucks so have limited use in the field The US army’s SHORAD Stryker is the only combat vehicle platform that I’m aware of that has multiple effects available (stinger, 30mm and EW). I’m aware that there are similar vehicle options in development or possibly even operational mounted on tactical vehicles like the new JLTV Humvee replacement and I think I even saw ATV/off-road versions but for all of these smaller platforms tge system is multiple vehicles working together. Even so, these systems alone still don’t cover the entire spectrum of threats so you need multiple systems somehow integrated. Plus when you identify a threat you have to have a way to know which solution to use. Given that many drones can be homemade or modified in the field or a hobbyist’s garage, you might often have no way of knowing how it’s being controlled or guided and what response to deliver.l amd have a very short time to decide. And finally while the electronic/ laser defence options might blind the drone’s sensors, fry its onboard electronics or jam its communications, that doesn’t necessarily make it fall from the sky like a rock, it might still fly or glide on its existing trajectory and either still hit its target or come down on some other part of your base or position. Germany has these same systems on 8 x 8 on boxers, which can also be put on other tracked vehicles, they are also looking at a high power lazer that is close to coming out...I think you'll find that there are many SHORAD systems that combine all 4 levels of air defense to protect a target like air field or high value target like a nuke power plant etc...for forces on the move there are many solutions to SHORAD or med air defense systems that are vehicle based...that are capable of protect out to 40 kms....for example the German SKYNET ties in all 4 different systems from Stinger vehs to Patriot systems or MEAD systems which defended areas as large as 100's sq KMs....it protects from small bird size drones to jets and other missiles... Small drones are easily handled by guns...including swarms, firing 1000 rounds a minute out to 3.5 kms with rounds that contain 100's of tungsten pellets, we use to have the sky guard twin 35 mm here in Canada but they were warehoused or sold... the lazers are capable of burning the drone out of the sky,...where they fall is a problem, but they are identified many kms away...these systems like sky net do all of this in milliseconds...including firing automatically if needed, but it is normal practice to have a human make that firing decision. it takes seconds and then it's done...the gun will fire until the targets are destroyed, or the operator shuts it down...lots of U tubes on it... https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=skynet+airdefense+system&type=E210CA1494G0#id=8&vid=611bace8297629eb5c2812cee24520d4&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=skynet+airdefense+system&type=E210CA1494G0#id=10&vid=f1aacc1c3c618410c5be39f9f0d8d40f&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwriiH7sPatlSvEZVBAWFQx.;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkAw--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcyMTA0NgRfcgMyBGZyA21jYWZlZQRmcjIDcDpzLHY6dixtOnNiLHJnbjp0b3AEZ3ByaWQDQU5hMFMzN2pSR2VVUVZmRGQ0akVBQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDOQRvcmlnaW4DY2EudmlkZW8uc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAzAEcXN0cmwDMzkEcXVlcnkDZ2VybWFueSUyMG1lZHVpbSUyMHJhbmdlJTIwYWlyZGVmZW5zZSUyMHN5c3RlbXMEdF9zdG1wAzE3MDU3MjE1NDE-?p=germany+meduim+range+airdefense+systems&ei=UTF-8&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asb%2Crgn%3Atop&fr=mcafee&type=E210CA1494G0#id=23&vid=ce79e91aba477f6831c684fa0ae2ed1d&action=view Sky guard old system. https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=skynet+airdefense+system&type=E210CA1494G0#id=4&vid=afb56ca47bf14c49307c1ff2a46e5bcb&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwriiH7sPatlSvEZVBAWFQx.;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkAw--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcyMTA0NgRfcgMyBGZyA21jYWZlZQRmcjIDcDpzLHY6dixtOnNiLHJnbjp0b3AEZ3ByaWQDQU5hMFMzN2pSR2VVUVZmRGQ0akVBQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDOQRvcmlnaW4DY2EudmlkZW8uc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAzAEcXN0cmwDMzkEcXVlcnkDZ2VybWFueSUyMG1lZHVpbSUyMHJhbmdlJTIwYWlyZGVmZW5zZSUyMHN5c3RlbXMEdF9zdG1wAzE3MDU3MjE1NDE-?p=germany+meduim+range+airdefense+systems&ei=UTF-8&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asb%2Crgn%3Atop&fr=mcafee&type=E210CA1494G0#id=2&vid=44348bcdb2c89a3a0409e7f4ce3b2e97&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwriiH7sPatlSvEZVBAWFQx.;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkAw--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcyMTA0NgRfcgMyBGZyA21jYWZlZQRmcjIDcDpzLHY6dixtOnNiLHJnbjp0b3AEZ3ByaWQDQU5hMFMzN2pSR2VVUVZmRGQ0akVBQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDOQRvcmlnaW4DY2EudmlkZW8uc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAzAEcXN0cmwDMzkEcXVlcnkDZ2VybWFueSUyMG1lZHVpbSUyMHJhbmdlJTIwYWlyZGVmZW5zZSUyMHN5c3RlbXMEdF9zdG1wAzE3MDU3MjE1NDE-?p=germany+meduim+range+airdefense+systems&ei=UTF-8&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asb%2Crgn%3Atop&fr=mcafee&type=E210CA1494G0#id=3&vid=7cc7f52b641438add2f0dddfafb637fa&action=view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) 10 hours ago, Army Guy said: Germany has these same systems on 8 x 8 on boxers, which can also be put on other tracked vehicles, they are also looking at a high power lazer that is close to coming out...I think you'll find that there are many SHORAD systems that combine all 4 levels of air defense to protect a target like air field or high value target like a nuke power plant etc...for forces on the move there are many solutions to SHORAD or med air defense systems that are vehicle based...that are capable of protect out to 40 kms....for example the German SKYNET ties in all 4 different systems from Stinger vehs to Patriot systems or MEAD systems which defended areas as large as 100's sq KMs....it protects from small bird size drones to jets and other missiles... Small drones are easily handled by guns...including swarms, firing 1000 rounds a minute out to 3.5 kms with rounds that contain 100's of tungsten pellets, we use to have the sky guard twin 35 mm here in Canada but they were warehoused or sold... the lazers are capable of burning the drone out of the sky,...where they fall is a problem, but they are identified many kms away...these systems like sky net do all of this in milliseconds...including firing automatically if needed, but it is normal practice to have a human make that firing decision. it takes seconds and then it's done...the gun will fire until the targets are destroyed, or the operator shuts it down...lots of U tubes on it... https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=skynet+airdefense+system&type=E210CA1494G0#id=8&vid=611bace8297629eb5c2812cee24520d4&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=skynet+airdefense+system&type=E210CA1494G0#id=10&vid=f1aacc1c3c618410c5be39f9f0d8d40f&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwriiH7sPatlSvEZVBAWFQx.;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkAw--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcyMTA0NgRfcgMyBGZyA21jYWZlZQRmcjIDcDpzLHY6dixtOnNiLHJnbjp0b3AEZ3ByaWQDQU5hMFMzN2pSR2VVUVZmRGQ0akVBQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDOQRvcmlnaW4DY2EudmlkZW8uc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAzAEcXN0cmwDMzkEcXVlcnkDZ2VybWFueSUyMG1lZHVpbSUyMHJhbmdlJTIwYWlyZGVmZW5zZSUyMHN5c3RlbXMEdF9zdG1wAzE3MDU3MjE1NDE-?p=germany+meduim+range+airdefense+systems&ei=UTF-8&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asb%2Crgn%3Atop&fr=mcafee&type=E210CA1494G0#id=23&vid=ce79e91aba477f6831c684fa0ae2ed1d&action=view Sky guard old system. https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&ei=UTF-8&p=skynet+airdefense+system&type=E210CA1494G0#id=4&vid=afb56ca47bf14c49307c1ff2a46e5bcb&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwriiH7sPatlSvEZVBAWFQx.;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkAw--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcyMTA0NgRfcgMyBGZyA21jYWZlZQRmcjIDcDpzLHY6dixtOnNiLHJnbjp0b3AEZ3ByaWQDQU5hMFMzN2pSR2VVUVZmRGQ0akVBQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDOQRvcmlnaW4DY2EudmlkZW8uc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAzAEcXN0cmwDMzkEcXVlcnkDZ2VybWFueSUyMG1lZHVpbSUyMHJhbmdlJTIwYWlyZGVmZW5zZSUyMHN5c3RlbXMEdF9zdG1wAzE3MDU3MjE1NDE-?p=germany+meduim+range+airdefense+systems&ei=UTF-8&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asb%2Crgn%3Atop&fr=mcafee&type=E210CA1494G0#id=2&vid=44348bcdb2c89a3a0409e7f4ce3b2e97&action=view https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwriiH7sPatlSvEZVBAWFQx.;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkAw--;_ylc=X1MDMjExNDcyMTA0NgRfcgMyBGZyA21jYWZlZQRmcjIDcDpzLHY6dixtOnNiLHJnbjp0b3AEZ3ByaWQDQU5hMFMzN2pSR2VVUVZmRGQ0akVBQQRuX3JzbHQDMARuX3N1Z2cDOQRvcmlnaW4DY2EudmlkZW8uc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAzAEcXN0cmwDMzkEcXVlcnkDZ2VybWFueSUyMG1lZHVpbSUyMHJhbmdlJTIwYWlyZGVmZW5zZSUyMHN5c3RlbXMEdF9zdG1wAzE3MDU3MjE1NDE-?p=germany+meduim+range+airdefense+systems&ei=UTF-8&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asb%2Crgn%3Atop&fr=mcafee&type=E210CA1494G0#id=3&vid=7cc7f52b641438add2f0dddfafb637fa&action=view Yeah i’ve seen many/most of those vids. Not sure which of those systems have achieved full operational capability as opposed to being prototypes - I would guess few. Those systems are all pieces of the puzzle but nome perfectly solves it and again I believe some of these are not yet in production or field-proven. Fun fact: Canada had the SkyGuard system 1989-2005 but like all our other air defence systems it was scrapped RE: Lasers that can allegedly burn through a drone I wonder about the practicalities of that if true …sounds like it would take a lot of power especially if over any especially long distance Edited January 20 by BeaverFever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) More news about Canada's military, even if half of it is true there is a crises....and it is only going to get worse as it is going to be to costly to repair, let alone fix....It's time to ask Canadians if it is all worth it....we owe it to those that are serving, and to those tax payers that pay the bills. BEZAN: Feds failing to support the military in trying times (msn.com) Edited January 21 by Army Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 25 Author Report Share Posted January 25 Canada set to participate in NATO Exercise Steadfast Defender 2024 Department of National Defence Press Release | January 25, 2024 Estimated reading time 6 minutes, 3 seconds. An RCAF CH-148 Cyclone helicopter over water. Cpl Jessica Fox/12 Wing Imaging Services Photo The Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) is set to participate in the largest NATO exercise in decades that will serve to rehearse NATO’s Deterrence and Defence plans to counter threats to the Euro-Atlantic area. Approximately 1,000 CAF sailors, soldiers, aviators, and special forces members, will demonstrate NATO’s ability to conduct sustained, multi-domain defensive operations over a period of several months, simulating an Article 5 attack by an adversary with similar capabilities. The exercise will run from the end of January until the end of May 2024, and is divided into two main parts. The first part will be largely maritime based and will focus on defence of the North Atlantic and Arctic waters, while the second part will test NATO’s ability to rapidly deploy reinforcements across all domains in defence of Central and Eastern Europe. CAF assets that will be participating include Canadian patrol frigate HMCS Charlottetown with an embarked CH-148 Cyclone helicopter, and the Canadian-led enhanced Forward Presence Battle Group in Latvia, including for the first time, a Canadian Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank squadron. The exercise will also serve as an important milestone for the Canadian Army’s future Forward Land Forces Multinational Brigade Latvia, as the second part of the exercise will see the future command team integrate with their higher NATO command in the planning and execution of defensive combat operations. NATO is a cornerstone of Canada’s Defence Policy, and Canada has been contributing to NATO’s enhanced defence and deterrence measures in Europe since the invasion of Crimea in 2014. This exercise will provide a valuable opportunity to strengthen the CAF’s ability to project, integrate, and sustain operations within the NATO command and control structure. “Canada’s participation in Exercise Steadfast Defender sends a strong message about our ability to operate with NATO Allies and our continued contribution to the defence of Europe. Canada remains unwavering in its commitments to defend our shared values and interests, and to be a reliable partner in peace and security,” said Bill Blair, Canada’s minister of national defensce. “The deployment of CAF personnel and assets alongside NATO and Allied forces in Alliance territory serves as a powerful and unmistakable message of deterrence to potential adversaries and reassurance to Allies. This collective display of strength and readiness reinforces our commitment to safeguarding the security and stability of the region, sending a clear signal that any threat to our shared values and interests will be met with a unified and resolute response,” said Gen Wayne Eyre, chief of the defence staff. “The next few months will see our sailors, soldiers, and aviators engage in rigorous training and operational activities in diverse and challenging environments. This period will not only test their skills and capabilities but also provide an opportunity to forge strong and valuable partnerships with our NATO allies and partners, further enhancing our collective readiness and interoperability,’ said vice-admiral Bob Auchterlonie, commander of Canadian Joint Operations Command. Quick Facts In development for over three years, Steadfast Defender 24 will see over 90,000 military personnel, as well as more than 50 naval assets, over 80 aircraft, and over 1,100 combat vehicles, exercised across multiple domains (maritime, land, air space, and cyber) through a series of integrated plans, overseen by an enhanced command structure. Canadian Army personnel will participate to exercise Crystal Arrow in Latvia in March, as well as exercise Spring Storm in Estonia in May. Additionally, Canadian Special Operation Forces Command members will participate in exercise Nordic Response in Norway in March. These exercises fall under the wider umbrella of Steadfast Defender 24 and are opportunities for soldiers to closely work with our NATO allies. In Summer 2024, Canada will also deploy four CH-146 Griffon helicopters to Latvia and periodically deploy CH-147 Chinooks as well, starting in the Fall of 2025. Op Reassurance is Canada’s contribution to NATO deterrence and defence measures in Central and Eastern Europe and is Canada’s largest overseas mission with approximately 1,000 personnel deployed. The mission is set to grow to up to 2,200 persistently deployed by 2026.This press release was prepared and distributed by Canada’s Department of National Defence https://skiesmag.com/press-releases/canada-set-to-participate-in-nato-exercise-steadfast-defender-2024/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-todays-news&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=todays-news&utm_content=V1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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