Document 19 Will Send Trump to Prison

[Rebound]

The Trump indictment document, which you can read for yourself, lists one unique item: Document 19. Here it is in the list of the 31 documents which he possessed in violation of Title 18 USC Sec 793(e); I attached a screenshot straight out of the indictment document. 

Notice the classification marking: "SECRET/FORMERLY RESTRICTED DATA, Undated document concerning nuclear weaponry of the United States."

The description is bad enough: "Nuclear weaponry of the United States." But its classification is different from all the others, "Formerly Restricted."  It turns out that "Restricted" is not Classified. It is completely different: Restricted comes from the US Department of Energy, which overseas the nuclear weapons programs. The Pentagon does not. A "Restricted" item is so top secret that the President CANNOT see it. The only way for the President to see it is for its classification to be downgraded for the purpose of allowing the President or permitted DoD officials to see it. THAT is how the nuclear secrets are guarded. 

This makes Document 19 unique, because it is a nuclear weapons secret, which is covered under a different federal law. Under Federal Law, the President of the United States does not have the authority to declassify nuclear secrets. He cannot magically do it, he can't even command it. Under Federal Law, the only way to declassify nuclear secrets is if the heads of the DoD and the DoE agree in writing, through a special review process. 

So, next time you hear Trump or his cronies claim that he can declassify information "in his head," well... no this document. And his unlawful, willful possession of this particular document carries a maximum prison sentence of twenty years in Federal prison. Trump had this document at Mar-a-Lago, he was asked to return it, then he was ordered to return it, then it was discovered at his home after a search warrant was executed. Guilty, your honor!

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Rebound

[Guest]

No guarantee he sees a single day in jail.

[Rebound]

Just now, Perspektiv said:

No guarantee he sees a single day in jail.

People who steal America’s nuclear weapons secrets belong in jail. That’s what Federal Law says. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Rebound

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Rebound said:

belong in jail.

A lot of people belong in jail, and haven't seen a day in one, for far more serious crimes.

You do not have a slam dunk case.

Putting a political opponent in jail sets a bad precedent.

If you feel it does not, then the law must be applied firmly and evenly moving forwards at any indictment worthy charges. Regardless of the party.

[Rebound]

1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

A lot of people belong in jail, and haven't seen a day in one, for far more serious crimes.

You do not have a slam dunk case.

Putting a political opponent in jail sets a bad precedent.

If you feel it does not, then the law must be applied firmly and evenly moving forwards at any indictment worthy charges. Regardless of the party.

What is a more serious crime than stealing America’s nuclear secrets? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Rebound said:

What is a more serious crime than stealing America’s nuclear secrets? 

War crimes?

[Rebound]

Just now, Perspektiv said:

War crimes?

Nuclear secrets kill even more.  

[TreeBeard]

Granted, I don’t follow Trump/American politics all that closely….  But from what I’ve read, he has admitted in public to having the documents that he shouldn’t have had.  
 

I think his defence strategy is “I hope the next president is a Republican who will pardon me”.  

29 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Putting a political opponent in jail sets a bad precedent.

Political opponents should be allowed to commit crimes?  Makes no sense. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by TreeBeard

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Nuclear secrets kill even more.  

How many people have died?

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

The Trump indictment document, which you can read for yourself, lists one unique item: Document 19. Here it is in the list of the 31 documents which he possessed in violation of Title 18 USC Sec 793(e); I attached a screenshot straight out of the indictment document. 

Notice the classification marking: "SECRET/FORMERLY RESTRICTED DATA, Undated document concerning nuclear weaponry of the United States."

The description is bad enough: "Nuclear weaponry of the United States." But its classification is different from all the others, "Formerly Restricted."  It turns out that "Restricted" is not Classified. It is completely different: Restricted comes from the US Department of Energy, which overseas the nuclear weapons programs. The Pentagon does not. A "Restricted" item is so top secret that the President CANNOT see it. The only way for the President to see it is for its classification to be downgraded for the purpose of allowing the President or permitted DoD officials to see it. THAT is how the nuclear secrets are guarded. 

This makes Document 19 unique, because it is a nuclear weapons secret, which is covered under a different federal law. Under Federal Law, the President of the United States does not have the authority to declassify nuclear secrets. He cannot magically do it, he can't even command it. Under Federal Law, the only way to declassify nuclear secrets is if the heads of the DoD and the DoE agree in writing, through a special review process. 

So, next time you hear Trump or his cronies claim that he can declassify information "in his head," well... no this document. And his unlawful, willful possession of this particular document carries a maximum prison sentence of twenty years in Federal prison. Trump had this document at Mar-a-Lago, he was asked to return it, then he was ordered to return it, then it was discovered at his home after a search warrant was executed. Guilty, your honor!

 

Just out of curiosity, what do you think "formerly" means? 

[Rebound]

5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you think "formerly" means? 

It means the classification was reduced to a DoE level which is just beneath, "Too Secret for even the President to see." 

[WestCanMan]

3 minutes ago, Rebound said:

It means the classification was reduced to a DoE level which is just beneath, "Too Secret for even the President to see." 

Formerly means "used to be".

Secret/Formerly Restricted" seems like it was "SECRET" at the time the document was created but it contains information that was FORMERLY "restricted"...

I'm honestly not familiar with the declassification process, but the word formerly only has one meaning and it's weird that you blow right past it when it's bolded, in all caps....

If it is (actually was at the time it was printed) secret, that's not a really big deal at all. I had a secret security security clearance when I was in the navy and I was just a gunner (Weapons Tech) which isn't a big deal. The navy didn't even run background checks on me at my school, former places of work, etc. 

The way that security clearances work is that everything is compartmentalized into things that people within your field can see but others can't. You could have one clearance higher than a classified doc but if it's not related to your own area of work then you're still not allowed to access it. 

There is an exception to that rule among the lower branches of the military: naval signalmen and others who receive and relay messages get a "Top Secret" clearance so that they're allowed to briefly access whatever info they need to regardless of what group that info is related to. 

The president's clearance is way higher than anything that most people would ever be considered for. He actually is allowed to access information that's compartmentalized. He can access basically anything while he's POTUS. 

 

TBH doc 20 looks like a much bigger deal imo.

1) It was still Top Secret at the time it was printed

2) It's about "The timeline and details of an attack in a foreign country"...? That's like "sources and methods" info about a military attack, and it would say a lot about the specific capabilities and level of effectiveness of the troops involved, which would go along way towards helping enemies defend against that kind of attack. 

3) I had to look up ORCON and NOFORN, they both have huge implications. ORCON means "originator control", ie only the people who created the doc can give other people access to it. So if, for example, it came from the Navy Seals, no one can even share that info with Green Berets, Delta Force, etc unless they get permission directly from the people who made it. NOFORN means that no foreigners are allowed to see it, which seems pretty normal, but it means that it can't even be shared with the British, Canadians, French, etc. We share a lot of secrets with the US, but no Canadian would ever be allowed to see that document. 

 

This all sounds pretty ominous, but for all we know Biden had the same kind of info in his garage. 

[Rebound]

36 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Formerly means "used to be".

Secret/Formerly Restricted" seems like it was "SECRET" at the time the document was created but it contains information that was FORMERLY "restricted"...

I'm honestly not familiar with the declassification process, but the word formerly only has one meaning and it's weird that you blow right past it when it's bolded, in all caps....

If it is (actually was at the time it was printed) secret, that's not a really big deal at all. I had a secret security security clearance when I was in the navy and I was just a gunner (Weapons Tech) which isn't a big deal. The navy didn't even run background checks on me at my school, former places of work, etc. 

The way that security clearances work is that everything is compartmentalized into things that people within your field can see but others can't. You could have one clearance higher than a classified doc but if it's not related to your own area of work then you're still not allowed to access it. 

There is an exception to that rule among the lower branches of the military: naval signalmen and others who receive and relay messages get a "Top Secret" clearance so that they're allowed to briefly access whatever info they need to regardless of what group that info is related to. 

The president's clearance is way higher than anything that most people would ever be considered for. He actually is allowed to access information that's compartmentalized. He can access basically anything while he's POTUS. 

 

TBH doc 20 looks like a much bigger deal imo.

1) It was still Top Secret at the time it was printed

2) It's about "The timeline and details of an attack in a foreign country"...? That's like "sources and methods" info about a military attack, and it would say a lot about the specific capabilities and level of effectiveness of the troops involved, which would go along way towards helping enemies defend against that kind of attack. 

3) I had to look up ORCON and NOFORN, they both have huge implications. ORCON means "originator control", ie only the people who created the doc can give other people access to it. So if, for example, it came from the Navy Seals, no one can even share that info with Green Berets, Delta Force, etc unless they get permission directly from the people who made it. NOFORN means that no foreigners are allowed to see it, which seems pretty normal, but it means that it can't even be shared with the British, Canadians, French, etc. We share a lot of secrets with the US, but no Canadian would ever be allowed to see that document. 

 

This all sounds pretty ominous, but for all we know Biden had the same kind of info in his garage. 

You’re making things up. You don’t go to court and invent this stuff. 
You can visit the DoE’s website and read about their classification procedures.  
It was NOT an unclassified document. It is a nuclear weapons secret document. The President, by law, cannot declassify a nuclear weapons secret. It was previously so secret that even the President didn’t have access to it.  It had its classification reduced to DoE Secret, so that it could be shown to the President. 
 

Face it, Donald Trump broke some very serious laws.  

Edited June 20, 2023 by Rebound

[reason10]

3 hours ago, Rebound said:

The Trump indictment document, which you can read for yourself, lists one unique item: Document 19. Here it is in the list of the 31 documents which he possessed in violation of Title 18 USC Sec 793(e); I attached a screenshot straight out of the indictment document. 

Notice the classification marking: "SECRET/FORMERLY RESTRICTED DATA, Undated document concerning nuclear weaponry of the United States."

The description is bad enough: "Nuclear weaponry of the United States." But its classification is different from all the others, "Formerly Restricted."  It turns out that "Restricted" is not Classified. It is completely different: Restricted comes from the US Department of Energy, which overseas the nuclear weapons programs. The Pentagon does not. A "Restricted" item is so top secret that the President CANNOT see it. The only way for the President to see it is for its classification to be downgraded for the purpose of allowing the President or permitted DoD officials to see it. THAT is how the nuclear secrets are guarded. 

This makes Document 19 unique, because it is a nuclear weapons secret, which is covered under a different federal law. Under Federal Law, the President of the United States does not have the authority to declassify nuclear secrets. He cannot magically do it, he can't even command it. Under Federal Law, the only way to declassify nuclear secrets is if the heads of the DoD and the DoE agree in writing, through a special review process. 

So, next time you hear Trump or his cronies claim that he can declassify information "in his head," well... no this document. And his unlawful, willful possession of this particular document carries a maximum prison sentence of twenty years in Federal prison. Trump had this document at Mar-a-Lago, he was asked to return it, then he was ordered to return it, then it was discovered at his home after a search warrant was executed. Guilty, your honor!

 

Nope. If this were worth the paper it was printed on, LEGALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT TRUMP would have several cell blocks of CONVICTED DEMOCRATS waiting in  prison for the same crime.

You can continue to masturbate to this non story (or maybe dance around a burning cross while goose stepping) but these bogus charges are going to accomplish only ONE thing:  Get TRUMP reelected in a landslide and getting KKKlinton, Obama, Biden, and other Demonazis arrested and charged.

[WestCanMan]

29 minutes ago, Rebound said:

You’re making things up. You don’t go to court and invent this stuff. 

I'm not making things up at all. They don't entirely change the meaning of unique words in the English language like "formerly" for legalese or in military jargon. 

Formerly means formerly just like sedition means sedition. 

Do you wanna know what they do make up in court? The seriousness of charges against people whom they hate enough to run a witch hunt on them. Stop taking things personally ffs, this is an adult forum. 

Quote

You can visit the DoE’s website and read about their classification procedures.

You've presented no evidence that I need to...

Quote

 It was NOT an unclassified document.

Who said it was unclassified? Do you not speak English? Do you think that "SECRET" means "UNCLASSIFIED"? 

Quote

It is a nuclear weapons secret document.

Secret from when? 2020? 1954? 

FYI something that was RESTRICTED in 1954 could very easily have been downgraded to SECRET in 2020. Almost every country that the US is worried about knows all that they need to about America's 1954 nukes. 

If it was about the location and capabilities of every American nuclear weapon stationed everywhere on earth Trump would just be missing right now. 

Quote

The President, by law, cannot declassify a nuclear weapons secret. It was previously so secret that even the President didn’t have access to it.  It had its classification reduced to DoE Secret, so that it could be shown to the President. 

Also you...

Quote

Trump had this document at Mar-a-Lago, he was asked to return it, then he was ordered to return it, then it was discovered at his home after a search warrant was executed.

So by your own understanding of it, the authorities responsible for the handling of these documents already knew that Trump had doc 19 at Mar-a-Lago. 

Do you understand the significant difference between that and what you've been insinuating.... You're trying to pretend that Trump had documents that are so secret that he never had authority to take them home, but it seems like he actually had every right to take them home, they were just overdue, like library books, when the FBI seized them.

Now, it's quite possible that you have that entirely wrong, and no one knew or even suspected that Trump had doc19 at home, so it could still be a big deal, but right now it's not a big deal. It's an overdue library book with a pedigree. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

3 minutes ago, reason10 said:

Nope. If this were worth the paper it was printed on, LEGALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT TRUMP would have several cell blocks of CONVICTED DEMOCRATS waiting in  prison for the same crime.

You can continue to masturbate to this non story (or maybe dance around a burning cross while goose stepping) 

Ten years ago that level of rhetoric would have seemed ridiculous and juvenile, but in 2023 it's right on point. Leftists basically do "goose-step around a burning cross". 

[Americana Antifa]

Whenever people point to one of Trump's thousands of crimes and say that he's finished, I always disagree. In America, the rich and powerful are above the law. And conservatives love that Trump is a criminal, so it's not like any of this will cause him to lose support.

However, what Trump did with these classified documents was so bad, that for the first time ever, I'm actually thinking this might be it for Trump. The FBI and CIA don't care about corruption and crime, but they do care about national security.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, reason10 said:

Nope. If this were worth the paper it was printed on, LEGALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT TRUMP would have several cell blocks of CONVICTED DEMOCRATS waiting in  prison for the same crime.

You can continue to masturbate to this non story (or maybe dance around a burning cross while goose stepping) but these bogus charges are going to accomplish only ONE thing:  Get TRUMP reelected in a landslide and getting KKKlinton, Obama, Biden, and other Demonazis arrested and charged.

As a substitute school teacher, you OBVIOUSLY have NO EXPERIENCE with classified documents so ^this was NOT WORTH your time to SPECULATE ABOUT. Duh.

FWIW, nuclear secrets from the DoE are a completely DIFFERENT classification than ANY others.

[robosmith]

12 minutes ago, Americana Antifa said:

Whenever people point to one of Trump's thousands of crimes and say that he's finished, I always disagree. In America, the rich and powerful are above the law. And conservatives love that Trump is a criminal, so it's not like any of this will cause him to lose support.

However, what Trump did with these classified documents was so bad, that for the first time ever, I'm actually thinking this might be it for Trump. The FBI and CIA don't care about corruption and crime, but they do care about national security.

True conservatives care about the law. It is Republicans that have abandoned that pretense in their pursuit of RAW POWER.

[Americana Antifa]

3 minutes ago, robosmith said:

True conservatives care about the law. It is Republicans that have abandoned that pretense in their pursuit of RAW POWER.

The "true conservatives" you're talking about make up like less than 5% of the Right. Groups are defined by the majority, not the fringe.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

So by your own understanding of it, the authorities responsible for the handling of these documents already knew that Trump had doc 19 at Mar-a-Lago. 

....

Now, it's quite possible that you have that entirely wrong, and no one knew or even suspected that Trump had doc19 at home, so it could still be a big deal, but right now it's not a big deal. It's an overdue library book with a pedigree. 

It's entirely PROBABLE that you got it wrong, and they ONLY DISCOVERED that document during a search of locations from which they didn't have a warrant to retrieve it; which is why they demanded it to be returned instead of confiscating it on the spot. 

Just like your SPECULATION that "formerly" means what YOU BELIEVE, when it's used to describe classified docs.

[robosmith]

Just now, Americana Antifa said:

The "true conservatives" you're talking about make up like less than 5% of the Right. Groups are defined by the majority, not the fringe.

True conservatives make up 100% of the true conservatives on the right, which are different from the Republicans who have abandoned the pretense of caring about the law.

[Americana Antifa]

7 minutes ago, robosmith said:

True conservatives make up 100% of the true conservatives on the right, which are different from the Republicans who have abandoned the pretense of caring about the law.

If that's how you're defining the term, then conservatives are such a tiny minority, that they're less politically significant than tankies and anarchists.

Though my view is that conservatives have always been authoritarian.

[Rebound]

4 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Formerly means "used to be".

Secret/Formerly Restricted" seems like it was "SECRET" at the time the document was created but it contains information that was FORMERLY "restricted"...

I'm honestly not familiar with the declassification process, but the word formerly only has one meaning and it's weird that you blow right past it when it's bolded, in all caps....

If it is (actually was at the time it was printed) secret, that's not a really big deal at all. I had a secret security security clearance when I was in the navy and I was just a gunner (Weapons Tech) which isn't a big deal. The navy didn't even run background checks on me at my school, former places of work, etc. 

The way that security clearances work is that everything is compartmentalized into things that people within your field can see but others can't. You could have one clearance higher than a classified doc but if it's not related to your own area of work then you're still not allowed to access it. 

There is an exception to that rule among the lower branches of the military: naval signalmen and others who receive and relay messages get a "Top Secret" clearance so that they're allowed to briefly access whatever info they need to regardless of what group that info is related to. 

The president's clearance is way higher than anything that most people would ever be considered for. He actually is allowed to access information that's compartmentalized. He can access basically anything while he's POTUS. 

 

TBH doc 20 looks like a much bigger deal imo.

1) It was still Top Secret at the time it was printed

2) It's about "The timeline and details of an attack in a foreign country"...? That's like "sources and methods" info about a military attack, and it would say a lot about the specific capabilities and level of effectiveness of the troops involved, which would go along way towards helping enemies defend against that kind of attack. 

3) I had to look up ORCON and NOFORN, they both have huge implications. ORCON means "originator control", ie only the people who created the doc can give other people access to it. So if, for example, it came from the Navy Seals, no one can even share that info with Green Berets, Delta Force, etc unless they get permission directly from the people who made it. NOFORN means that no foreigners are allowed to see it, which seems pretty normal, but it means that it can't even be shared with the British, Canadians, French, etc. We share a lot of secrets with the US, but no Canadian would ever be allowed to see that document. 

 

This all sounds pretty ominous, but for all we know Biden had the same kind of info in his garage. 

You can’t just invent what the terms mean and then declare Trump innocent.  FRD information is equivalent to “Top Secret,” except that the Nuclear Regulatory Act applies. The President by law cannot declassify FRD data.
 

Formerly Restricted Data (FRD) is information removed from the Restricted Data category upon a joint determination by the Department of Energy (or antecedent agencies) and the Department of Defense that such information relates primarily to the military utilization of atomic weapons and that such information can be safeguarded adequately as classified National Security Information in the United States. For purposes of foreign dissemination, however, such information is treated in the same manner as Restricted Data.

Restricted Data is all data concerning design, manufacture or utilization of atomic weapons; the production of special nuclear material, or the use of special nuclear material in the production of energy.

 

Restricted Data (RD) is one of the most stringently protected categories of classified information. The Atomic Energy Act of 1954 states that RD can be declassified if it can be published without undue risk to the common defense and security. FRD is the next most stringently protected classified information. FRD is not protected as stringently as is RD but is better protected than NSI. FRD can be declassified when it may be published without constituting an unreasonable risk to the common defense and security. Accepting a less-than-unreasonable risk (i.e., accepting a reasonable risk) presumably means accepting more damage than from an undue risk.

https://sgp.fas.org/classdoe.htm

Edited June 20, 2023 by Rebound

[reason10]

8 hours ago, robosmith said:

As a substitute school teacher, you OBVIOUSLY have NO EXPERIENCE with classified documents so ^this was NOT WORTH your time to SPECULATE ABOUT. Duh.

FWIW, nuclear secrets from the DoE are a completely DIFFERENT classification than ANY others.

As a substitute teacher, I occasionally have to deal with Special Ed students, all of which are smarter and more intelligent than you and the rest of your goose steppers.

This witch hunt will get Trump to a second term.