Just how pointless and stupid our climate reductions efforts are

[Aristides]

Just now, CdnFox said:

Because you claim the planet is going to be destroyed.

If that's the case then either you don't care about what's "Fair" or "allowing" anything.  You would need it to stop regardless.

If that's not the case then what are we talking about this for.

 

It's impossible to take this seriously when people say "You MUST comply or the world will be destroyed!!" Followed by "It would be unfair to ask them to comply".

Well if you are among the biggest emitters in the world and don't want to change anything, you aren't concerned about not destroying the planet. The planet doesn't give a shit about your concept of what is fair. Yes lets try to get them to comply but why should they listen to you if you have no intention of changing your own behaviour?

[eyeball]

31 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

And yet all your posts have been criticizing the right and their direction,

No most of them have been to mock the rights criticism of pretty much any direction other than denial. After all the effort that's been put into that I don't expect the right wing to do any more than the Liberals which is merely create the impression they're doing anything at all.

[Army Guy]

37 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So what if they outnumber us 100 to one. That justifies us emitting double they do percapita? What gives you or I the right to emit double the average Chinese? Why are we entitled? If the people who use the most and emit the most aren't willing to change anything, why should anyone listen to us?

Your missing the point, this is not about china...this is about Canadians thinking that we are tackling climate change with our current plan...and if you think we are keeping up with our signed agreements "to which we failed 8 years in a row".... then frankly your very gullible, our current plan is akin to doing nothing....it is not making a difference in climate change, nor will it....  but it is making a difference in Canadians pocket books...So the answer to the question, our actions are not producing any results...

You can use numbers to tell you anything you want, Canada is not even close to the amount of pollution and carbon China/ India emits in a year... And without their cooperation and direct action, nothing Canada does will effect global climate, making it not worth the effort or pain Canadians are feeling...So what gives me the right to complain, have you seen the price of fossil fuels, which has trickled down to everything else, food, services, all products... My hard earned money going down the drain becasue of a government that does not know or have a clue to tackle this issue, and while we struggle the Chinese/ Indians are giggling...

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

Your missing the point, this is not about china...this is about Canadians thinking that we are tackling climate change with our current plan...and if you think we are keeping up with our signed agreements "to which we failed 8 years in a row".... then frankly your very gullible, our current plan is akin to doing nothing....it is not making a difference in climate change, nor will it....  but it is making a difference in Canadians pocket books...So the answer to the question, our actions are not producing any results...

You can use numbers to tell you anything you want, Canada is not even close to the amount of pollution and carbon China/ India emits in a year... And without their cooperation and direct action, nothing Canada does will effect global climate, making it not worth the effort or pain Canadians are feeling...So what gives me the right to complain, have you seen the price of fossil fuels, which has trickled down to everything else, food, services, all products... My hard earned money going down the drain becasue of a government that does not know or have a clue to tackle this issue, and while we struggle the Chinese/ Indians are giggling...

We can only do what we are willing to do and if that is nothing, don't expect anything different from anyone else.  

[Army Guy]

Just now, eyeball said:

No most of them have been to mock the rights criticism of pretty much any direction other than denial. After all the effort that's been put into that I don't expect the right wing to do any more than the Liberals which is merely create the impression they're doing anything at all.

Bull shit , in every crowd your going to have wingnuts.. painting the entire conservative wing with one brush, plenty of people right here on this forum, have conservative views, but would disagree with the wingnut or fringe elements...

[Army Guy]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

We can only do what we are willing to do and if that is nothing, don't expect anything different from anyone else.  

What are you saying, that china is not doing anything becasue of Canadians policy... thats funney, China is doing China becasue it is what they want to do, not becasue of climate change...This is a "global" climate crises, and needs Global action...China/India is included in that... and without their cooperation, there is not fixing it... none, you could raise carbon taxes to 10 bucks a liter and we would not begin to solve this on our own... until what ever action we take is null and void all for nothing.... 

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Bull shit , in every crowd your going to have wingnuts.. painting the entire conservative wing with one brush, plenty of people right here on this forum, have conservative views, but would disagree with the wingnut or fringe elements...

I just painted the entire government with the same brush because it hasn't mattered who was in power and that shows no indication of changing. Not one bit.

[Aristides]

4 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

What are you saying, that china is not doing anything becasue of Canadians policy... thats funney, China is doing China becasue it is what they want to do, not becasue of climate change...This is a "global" climate crises, and needs Global action...China/India is included in that... and without their cooperation, there is not fixing it... none, you could raise carbon taxes to 10 bucks a liter and we would not begin to solve this on our own... until what ever action we take is null and void all for nothing.... 

In 2020, China was the world leader in solar and wind generation.  Over 2.5 times  more solar generated electricity than #2 USA and over double the wind generated electricity of #2 USA. I think taxes are the lazy man's attempt at a solution.

India was 5th in solar generation and 4th in wind generation.

[CdnFox]

50 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Well if you are among the biggest emitters in the world and don't want to change anything, you aren't concerned about not destroying the planet.

Well that's a problem.  China is the biggest emitter and worse, their emissions are increasing rapidly.

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The planet doesn't give a shit about your concept of what is fair.

Yes, that's my point. The argument that is not 'fair' to ask developing countries or china or india to get things under control suggests the planet will decide not to warm based on ethics    if we really believe the planet is in danger, we wouldn't care about fair.

Quote

Yes lets try to get them to comply but why should they listen to you if you have no intention of changing your own behaviour?

Because the planet will be destroyed otherwise.  If we do or dont' won't make a difference but china makes a difference. So either it's a real threat and they care or it isn't and they don't.

Hell i'd even be willing to look at binding targets  for both of us that were tough enough to solve the problem. But they aren't

But the fact is they won't do anything whether we do something or not,

So what's the point? We'd be better off focusing on adaption or creating true GHG friendly tech like capture or advanced power storage or generation.

I'm all for trying to upgrade our selves to cleaner tech as well, there's lots of good reasons to do that on top of climate change.  And while we can't make things better we don't have to  make it worse. 

But it's REALLY hard to take this seriously while most gov'ts around the world seem to think it's not worth getting too worked up about and the big polluters are actually ramping up.

Edited August 8, 2023 by CdnFox

[Aristides]

Canada is 9th in wind generated power and 27th in solar generated power. It isn't correct to say others are doing nothing.  9th doesn't sound too bad for wind generation until you realize it is 1/25th of what China produces. When it comes to solar,  China generates 89 times more than Canada.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Aristides

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But it's REALLY hard to take this seriously while most gov'ts around the world seem to think it's not worth getting too worked up about and the big polluters are actually ramping up.

What makes you impossible to take seriously is how deliberately disingenuous and ignorant you are. This business of fairness and ramping up and taking action was discussed and agreed to decades ago and you know it. Then most developed government's decided to ignore all that because the din of denial was as intolerable as it was difficult to overcome to justify the political risk of adhering to our agreements.

The international adaptation fund we agreed to help provide should have stood at $100 billion years ago it's still only a 10th of that in size. The action we agreed to take is likewise a whole lot of dollars and decades short.

You have no more of the ethical or moral grounding it takes to weigh in on this issue than our governments do.

[Aristides]

Does anyone seriously think all the stuff we buy from China is produced without emissions?

[CdnFox]

50 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Canada is 9th in wind generated power and 27th in solar generated power. It isn't correct to say others are doing nothing.  9th doesn't sound too bad for wind generation until you realize it is 1/25th of what China produces. When it comes to solar,  China generates 89 times more than Canada.

We live in the north.  We're never going to be number 1 for solar.  And we've got more hydro than anyone anywhere, so there

Sure - there's been some minor stuff done usually where it's cheaper.  Solar power is obviously not reliable enough to replace other power but where it is usable it's the cheapest power going. 

But nobody's serious about it. Certainly not here in canada - trudeau's let emissions go up every year and only ever considered 'political' solutions, not actual ones.

[I am Groot]

Another perspective on carbon emissions...

 

In a forest-rich large underpopulated country like Canada, there are 318 billion trees that use 7.6 billion tons of carbon dioxide as food each year. Canadians release 545 million tons of carbon dioxide each year from fossil-fuel burning, smelting and cement manufacture. Canada is already at net zero. Canadians pay tax for the carbon dioxide they release.

https://www.spectator.com.au/2023/06/earth-is-already-at-net-zero/

Edited August 8, 2023 by I am Groot

[Aristides]

11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Another perspective on carbon emissions...

 

In a forest-rich large underpopulated country like Canada, there are 318 billion trees that use 7.6 billion tons of carbon dioxide as food each year. Canadians release 545 million tons of carbon dioxide each year from fossil-fuel burning, smelting and cement manufacture. Canada is already at net zero. Canadians pay tax for the carbon dioxide they release.

https://www.spectator.com.au/2023/06/earth-is-already-at-net-zero/

What bullshit. Do you think there are no natural sources of CO2 those trees have to absorb like from dead vegetation? Can you honestly think human activity is the only source of CO2?  By the end of July we had burned over 12 million hectares of forest in BC alone. That's 12 billion hectares of trees that won't be absorbing much CO2 for years. 

Not only are we adding billions of tons of trapped carbon to the atmosphere, we are destroying the carbon sinks needed to absorb it.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Aristides

[Aristides]

35 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

We live in the north.  We're never going to be number 1 for solar.  And we've got more hydro than anyone anywhere, so there

Sure - there's been some minor stuff done usually where it's cheaper.  Solar power is obviously not reliable enough to replace other power but where it is usable it's the cheapest power going. 

But nobody's serious about it. Certainly not here in canada - trudeau's let emissions go up every year and only ever considered 'political' solutions, not actual ones.

We have no more rivers left to dam in BC plus drought and disappearing glaciers will reduce the amount of water available in our reservoirs. I agree when it comes to Trudeau but he isn't an excuse to do nothing either.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Aristides

[Aristides]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/marine-heat-wave-off-pacific-coast-could-prove-dangerous-for-wildlife-1.6930686

[CdnFox]

37 minutes ago, Aristides said:

We have no more rivers left to dam in BC plus drought and disappearing glaciers will reduce the amount of water available in our reservoirs. I agree when it comes to Trudeau but he isn't an excuse to do nothing either.

And what's your point? Aside from the fact that no, we have not even come close to exhausting the rivers we can dam (not ot mention run of river projects)  the point is that regardless of what we might do someday in the future we've been leaders in hydro power for ages.  And not just bc, quebec and the maritimes as well.

And yes, sorry - trudeau is an excuse to do nothing.  Those who said they cared about climate change got their chance and that's what they picked. And instead of worrying about climate change, (or crime, or the deficit, or unity, etc etc) he worried about other things.  LIke making sure people who didn't get vaxxed were punished.  Becasue that's the important thing.

So - you had your chance, now those of us who are concerned about some of those things he ignored are going to want THAT to be the focus.  You got your carbon tax, and your paris accord etc etc.   If you've wasted your time and peed away your opportunity there that's too bad - we have more urgent messes to deal with now and virtue signalling for climate change will have to wait. 

 

 

[Aristides]

19 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And what's your point? Aside from the fact that no, we have not even come close to exhausting the rivers we can dam (not ot mention run of river projects)  the point is that regardless of what we might do someday in the future we've been leaders in hydro power for ages.  And not just bc, quebec and the maritimes as well.

And yes, sorry - trudeau is an excuse to do nothing.  Those who said they cared about climate change got their chance and that's what they picked. And instead of worrying about climate change, (or crime, or the deficit, or unity, etc etc) he worried about other things.  LIke making sure people who didn't get vaxxed were punished.  Becasue that's the important thing.wSo - you had your chance, now those of us who are concerned about some of those things he ignored are going to want THAT to be the focus.  You got your carbon tax, and your paris accord etc etc.   If you've wasted your time and peed away your opportunity there that's too bad - we have more urgent messes to deal with now and virtue signalling for climate change will have to wait. 

 

 

Really, how  many more rivers can we dam and where are they?  As far as solar goes, Germany is #4 in the world. The most southern big city in Germany is Munich. Munich is over 500 Km north of Toronto.

What do you mean, I had my chance? I've already said taxes are a lazy man's solution. What do you suggest other than just bit ching and doing nothing?

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Really, how  many more rivers can we dam and where are they?  

 

Through the GIS-based Rapid Hydropower Assessment Model, KWL identified more than 8,000 sites in the province that could be developed as run-of-river power projects. It also predicted how power output could fluctuate throughout the year based on regional variability factors that might create changes in streamflows.

https://www.esri.com/about/newsroom/arcnews/unlocking-british-columbias-hydropower-potential/

That's JUST run of the river, and it's enough to meet our power needs for about 30 years.  There's other sites we can dam as well.  Oh and there's a map

Anything else that you could have looked up in 5 seconds that i can do for you?

Quote

As far as solar goes, Germany is #4 in the world. The most southern big city in Germany is Munich. Munich is over 500 Km north of Toronto.

Lets be clear - the have the 4th or 3rd largest number of solar cells installed.  BUT - their ACTUAL power generation is tiny.  About 8 percent of their power use. 

So - kinda proves my point doesn't it. They've put solar EVERYWHERE and it doesn't produce very much power.   California does better with less of an investment.

Quote

What do you mean, I had my chance? I've already said taxes are a lazy man's solution. What do you suggest other than just bit ching and doing nothing?

There's lots of things we could do and could have done.  but - "taxes" is what we went with. It's cost  a fortune.  Sorry - that's what we focused on and what we spent our money on - you had a sympathetic gov't in  power and did nothing but taxes and blocking projects.

So yeah - you had your chance. If you believed in climate change and the need to fight it then you should have picked a gov't that didn't focus on taxes as the solution and fake 'targets' that they did nothing to try to hit.  Now we're going to have to focus on other things. Climate is falling down the priority list pretty quickly for Canadians.

I'm no longer interested in spending a single ounce of energy on useless brain dead "climate change" solutions and i'm not interested in listening to the latest screwed up idea that the liberals come up with.

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Through the GIS-based Rapid Hydropower Assessment Model, KWL identified more than 8,000 sites in the province that could be developed as run-of-river power projects. It also predicted how power output could fluctuate throughout the year based on regional variability factors that might create changes in streamflows.

https://www.esri.com/about/newsroom/arcnews/unlocking-british-columbias-hydropower-potential/

That's JUST run of the river, and it's enough to meet our power needs for about 30 years.  There's other sites we can dam as well.  Oh and there's a map

Anything else that you could have looked up in 5 seconds that i can do for you?

Lets be clear - the have the 4th or 3rd largest number of solar cells installed.  BUT - their ACTUAL power generation is tiny.  About 8 percent of their power use. 

So - kinda proves my point doesn't it. They've put solar EVERYWHERE and it doesn't produce very much power.   California does better with less of an investment.

There's lots of things we could do and could have done.  but - "taxes" is what we went with. It's cost  a fortune.  Sorry - that's what we focused on and what we spent our money on - you had a sympathetic gov't in  power and did nothing but taxes and blocking projects.

So yeah - you had your chance. If you believed in climate change and the need to fight it then you should have picked a gov't that didn't focus on taxes as the solution and fake 'targets' that they did nothing to try to hit.  Now we're going to have to focus on other things. Climate is falling down the priority list pretty quickly for Canadians.

I'm no longer interested in spending a single ounce of energy on useless brain dead "climate change" solutions and i'm not interested in listening to the latest screwed up idea that the liberals come up with.

So nothing then.

The only rivers left to dam are the Skeena and Fraser, the two largest salmon bearing rivers in Canada. Mind you, high water temperatures and low water levels will probably end up killing most of the salmon anyway. As far as your run of river map goes, the hydro lines to tie them together will would look like a spider web and have to be built on largely vertical terrain.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Aristides

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So nothing then.

 

Tonnes - i'm sorrry  you've suddenly lost the ability to read. There are still hundreds of rivers that can be dammed in bc.  in fact they argued for quite some time if the site c was the best chocie or one of the others would be better.

THis is what i hate about your type - you ask a question, someone provides legit actual proof and corroborating evidence, and then you just pretend it doesn't exist because your teeny tiny little brain can't encompass anything beyond your own echo chamber talking points.  We have PLENTY of hydro capacity left.

There is TONNES of hydro potential still in bc.  We use hydro now. We are VASTLY more environment friendly than most jurisdictions. That's really the end of that discussion.

So how does canada rate so highly in emmissions? They count the oil that we produce that SOMEONE ELSE BURNS.

Thats right - some other country burns the oil and WE are 'credited' for it.  That's 25 percent of our ENTIRE GHG Production.  If that country burns oil from saudi arabia instead then the same fuel is burnt but somehow we've gotten cleaner. The fuel they burn ALSO counts in their country.

It's complete bullshit.  And this is why it's gotten to be impossible to take any of this seriously.

"bc doesnt' have any more hydro capacity".   Seriously how thick do you have to be to think that?

 

[Aristides]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Tonnes - i'm sorrry  you've suddenly lost the ability to read. There are still hundreds of rivers that can be dammed in bc.  in fact they argued for quite some time if the site c was the best chocie or one of the others would be better.

THis is what i hate about your type - you ask a question, someone provides legit actual proof and corroborating evidence, and then you just pretend it doesn't exist because your teeny tiny little brain can't encompass anything beyond your own echo chamber talking points.  We have PLENTY of hydro capacity left.

There is TONNES of hydro potential still in bc.  We use hydro now. We are VASTLY more environment friendly than most jurisdictions. That's really the end of that discussion.

So how does canada rate so highly in emmissions? They count the oil that we produce that SOMEONE ELSE BURNS.

Thats right - some other country burns the oil and WE are 'credited' for it.  That's 25 percent of our ENTIRE GHG Production.  If that country burns oil from saudi arabia instead then the same fuel is burnt but somehow we've gotten cleaner. The fuel they burn ALSO counts in their country.

 The  complete bullshit.  And this is why it's gotten to be impossible to take any of this seriously.

"bc doesnt' have any more hydro capacity".   Seriously how thick do you have to be to think that?

 

There are not hundreds of rivers that can be dammed, that's why it is called run of river. Multiple sites are needed because they depend on existing water flow which is seasonal, not stored water in reservoirs behind dams. 8000 sites were identified but only 121 were deemed cost effective.  Each will be subject to environmental and more intensive cost studies which will probably eliminate quite a few and then they will somehow have to be tied into the grid.

Quote

Through GIS, we were able to collect data on more than 10 million potential sites in a matter of hours—a process that traditionally would have taken years,” 

Useful but hardly an in depth study.

So yes, I can read.

They do not count the oil we produce that others burn but they do count the emissions produced by our oil industry to extract that oil, like the huge amounts of natural gas used to extract oil from the oil sands. Where did you get that nonsensical idea?

We rate highly because of our high degree of personal mobility, the long distances we travel both by land and air, the larger, less efficient vehicles we drive and our lack of public transportation infrastructure. We have many remote areas that rely totally on fossil fuels for power generation. We also live in larger homes than most other nations which consume more energy to operate.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Aristides

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

There are not hundreds of rivers that can be dammed, that's why it is called run of river.

There are hundreds of rivers that can be dammed.  There are THOUSANDS of rivers that can have a run of the river project. 

And either way there is MASSIVE untapped electrical potential.   Lying about it won't change that.  I gave you clear proof along with maps.

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

We rate highly because of our high degree of personal mobility,

25 percent -  25 mind you - is from oil we don't burn.

Take that away and suddenly we're not so far off a lot of other countries.

But sure -  go ahead and ignore hat fact and pretend it doesn't exist  just like you ignore every other fact that doesn't suit your echo chamber.

[Aristides]

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

There are hundreds of rivers that can be dammed.  There are THOUSANDS of rivers that can have a run of the river project. 

Name two rivers that can still be dammed. Even if we did you are talking about flooding millions of hectares of river valleys which are where most of our towns and agriculture are located. Site C will be the last major dam built in BC.

And either way there is MASSIVE untapped electrical potential.   Lying about it won't change that.  I gave you clear proof along with maps.

Quote

25 percent -  25 mind you - is from oil we don't burn.

Quote

 

Cite

 

Quote

But sure -  go ahead and ignore hat fact and pretend it doesn't exist  just like you ignore every other fact that doesn't suit your echo chamber.

Run of river will have it's place and is something we will need to do but you are kidding yourself if you think it is the solution.