Scientific Method vs Engineering Method

[August1991]

Engineers find methods that work.

Scientists test methods.

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True, correlation is not causation. But if it works, then it is good.

Engineers often use rules of thumb.

Scientists are curious to know why.

[bush_cheney2004]

Engineering is applied science, with extra margin for safety, reliability, etc.

Also, scientists usually don't get sued.

[August1991]

Richard Feynman described this far better in a lecture about the Mayans.

The Mayans could predict a solar eclipse - but they had no model of the solar system.

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Feynman also noted that we only have three writings of the Mayans - one is in Dresden, of all places. And as Feynman noted, "Imagine if all we know of our history is three books."  

 

[August1991]

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Engineering is applied science...

I disagree.

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Engineers find methods that work.

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Engineers find methods that work.

 

Depends on the discipline and application.   Engineers are constrained by more practical considerations than are scientists.

Engineering methods are born from experience/experiment in the real world as well.

[August1991]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Depends on the discipline and application.   Engineers are constrained by more practical considerations than are scientists.

Engineering methods are born from experience/experiment in the real world as well.

Discipline? Application?

I disagree.

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Current artificial Intelligence (even generative) is engineering. It seems to work now.

It is based on a rule-of-thumb - but a thumb that changes shape.

[bush_cheney2004]

58 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Discipline? Application?

I disagree.

 

There are many fields in science and engineering....theoretical and practical.  R&D push beyond limits and rules by design.

"Rules of thumb" are born of application experience.  

Quote

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Current artificial Intelligence (even generative) is engineering. It seems to work now.

It is based on a rule-of-thumb - but a thumb that changes shape.

 

Depends on the application...the underlying algorithms use processing (math), large data sets (experience), and learned error correction.

[Aristides]

Scientists come up with concepts, engineers make them work.

[August1991]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:31 AM, Contrarian said:

While the scientist was busy trying to reach new heights of knowledge, the engineer already brought a ladder and reached the top! ? 

ChatGPT is engineering. It is not science.

As Feynman described the Mayans, they could predict eclipses - but they could not explain them. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

Feynman also made a point that has always bothered me.

We only have three documents from the Mayans. (One is in Dresden, of all places.)

Imagine a society where all we know of it is three documents.

[August1991]

How do we discover the truth?

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Feynman also made this remark:

Birds have found a method to fly. We humans also fly - but we don't fly the way birds fly.

Edited July 22, 2023 by August1991

[herbie]

On 5/16/2023 at 8:11 AM, Aristides said:

Scientists come up with concepts, engineers try to make them work.

Toy train sets with 370 degrees of track in each kit
Kitchen utensils that break if you squeeze the handle
Cars that explode in flames if rear ended by a shopping cart.
Toy tanks with 5 1.5V motors and lights in them and only 4 batteries
Glues you can't use because they stick your fingers together before anything else.

We are, we are, we are the Engineers
We can, we can, we can drink 40 beers (UBC chant)
... and then go to work.

 

I forgot - fuel cells that can take men to the Moon but 55 years later are still a decade away from taking you down to the 7-11

[August1991]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:38 PM, herbie said:

...

Kitchen utensils that break if you squeeze the handle

...

Disagree..

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Birds fly. We humans now also fly - but differently. We use airplanes

Computers will think as humans - but differently 

Edited September 16, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

I am intrigued about this.

Some people observe/learn patterns: they are Engineers

Other people question patterns: they are Mathematicians

[August1991]

How did we learn?

By the engineering method - or the scientific method?

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If one year were 1 millimeter, then 100 millimeters would be a century - and my arm's length about 1000 years.

Dinosaurs? They'd be somewhere in Vermont   

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, August1991 said:

How did we learn?

By the engineering method - or the scientific method?

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You are touching on something that goes down to the differences and how people think, and maybe how they are constructed.  I studied with mathematicians and engineers, the former being more like philosophers and the latter being more like executives or builders.

And I think that a Hegelian mechanic makes a group with similar characteristics, such as the ability to do calculus, and give them personal characteristics that drives their discipline forward.

Similarly, with religion, he have the theologists and those that wonder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... versus the strong moralists who tell you that Friday is the day for eating fish, or the nuns that rap your knuckles with a ruler.

 

 

[Aristides]

On 7/23/2023 at 4:38 PM, herbie said:

Toy train sets with 370 degrees of track in each kit
Kitchen utensils that break if you squeeze the handle
Cars that explode in flames if rear ended by a shopping cart.
Toy tanks with 5 1.5V motors and lights in them and only 4 batteries
Glues you can't use because they stick your fingers together before anything else.

We are, we are, we are the Engineers
We can, we can, we can drink 40 beers (UBC chant)
... and then go to work.

 

I forgot - fuel cells that can take men to the Moon but 55 years later are still a decade away from taking you down to the 7-11

Fuel cells can easily take you down to the 7-11, if you can provide the fuel for them. The average car buyer doesn't have NASA's budget. 

[herbie]

Fuel cells for toys... once the engineers scale them down to fit and marketers realize they can sell those little CO2 cartridges full of hydrogen for $10 each!

Ones that need to be replaced before dinner on Christmas Day like the old zinc batteries when I was a kid.

[August1991]

Hey guys,

Interesting discussion.

Be thankful that we live in a country with a federal state/

[herbie]

On 11/18/2023 at 10:19 AM, Aristides said:

Fuel cells can easily take you down to the 7-11, if you can provide the fuel for them. The average car buyer doesn't have NASA's budget. 

Same was said about solar panels you can now find in the discount section at Crappy Tire and 48 packs of AA lithium batteries at Costco for what those old zinc ones cost for 2 when I was young. Those 9V square batteries that powered you transistor radio almost all day at the beach for about $20 in today money,

[Aristides]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:47 PM, herbie said:

Same was said about solar panels you can now find in the discount section at Crappy Tire and 48 packs of AA lithium batteries at Costco for what those old zinc ones cost for 2 when I was young. Those 9V square batteries that powered you transistor radio almost all day at the beach for about $20 in today money,

The issue with fuel cells isn't  the fuel cells, it's the economical production of enough green hydrogen to fuel them.

[August1991]

54 minutes ago, Aristides said:

The issue with fuel cells isn't  the fuel cells, it's the economical production of enough green hydrogen to fuel them.

Fuel Cells? Solar panels?

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Engineers -using rule of thumb- built aqueducts.

Scientists brought us to, uh, climate science.

[herbie]

17 hours ago, Aristides said:

The issue with fuel cells isn't  the fuel cells, it's the economical production of enough green hydrogen to fuel them.

So MAKE IT. That was exactly the point, stop with the "it ain't there Right F^cking Now so it never can be" argument with alternative energy solutions. Your Grandpa didn't have electricity or telephones, now you can't live without hydro and a phone in your pocket. He didn't have sidewalk, paved lighted streets or underground utilities, now they won't even let you build without those.

The economics works both ways: DEMAND also increases SUPPLY not just vice versa.