How Chrétien’s gutsy call on Iraq put him on the right side of history

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I see, so now we are back on the thread. Excellent.

you are the one who derailed the thread to engage in defamatory libel with malicious internt

I was only talking about Jean Chretien's duplicity before you did that

[Dougie93]

Just now, Contrarian said:

Ok, so first, I will respond to your respectful message then we will rewind how I made a simple joke about sports and you told me to come to Jesus + posted 3 consecutive posts with no reason, only one message could have done and said: "Contrarian, don't talk about sports".

that was in another thread

the British heritage thread where I invoked my British heritage of God, King, Country

in terms of encouraging you to come to Christ

you are slowly killing yourself with alcohol

I only want you to come to Jesus because I believe that He can save you from that

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

That is my choice, about the Whiskey, as long as I pay for it, who are you to tell me otherwise?

I am not telling you to do anything

i simply invited you to come to the Lord for your salvation

it's no reason to get angry with me, I meant no offence 

you are my enemy

but love thine enemies, Jesus of Nazareth said

[Dougie93]

27 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

Do you understand this kind of stuff helps me.

yes, I know

which is why I am keeping you company in the dark

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

It was an excellent decision by Chrétien, correct and consequential. Politicians don’t get enough praise for the disasters they avoid. By contrast, Tony Blair’s reputation has never recovered among Labour voters in the UK - for that and a few other reasons. 

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It was an excellent decision by Chrétien, correct and consequential. Politicians don’t get enough praise for the disasters they avoid. By contrast, Tony Blair’s reputation has never recovered among Labour voters in the UK - for that and a few other reasons. 

see, I think history will absolve George W. Bush

as Iraq is already the only functioning democracy in the Arabian Peninsula

Iraq will over time become the South Korea of the Middle East

and Canada will look foolish for siding with Saddam Hussein instead

[Dougie93]

Just now, Contrarian said:

New page, on ideas. I am keeping my word to respond, after which I am having my french fries with egg on top, is a great meal for energy. 

Thank you for sharing your opinion about Jean Chretien's actions regarding international conflicts. While I agree that consistency is an essential trait for leaders, it's also important to consider the context and potential justifications for their actions.

In the case of the bombing of Kosovo, it's worth noting that Chretien and other leaders believed that there was a humanitarian crisis that required immediate action. The absence of a UNSC resolution was due to the refusal of Russia and China to support it. In contrast, Chretien demanded a UNSC resolution for the Iraq War, where the situation was more complex and the evidence for military intervention was more contested.

I know you disagree, and that's ok. I maintain my position on this one. 

Iraq was a running humanitarian crisis which made Kosovo look like a picnic

Saddam Hussein mass murdering his own people

the Serbs did not gas the Kosovars like Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Contrarian said:

One more before the fries -> While I appreciate your perspective on the situation, I believe that it's unfair to downplay the severity of the crisis in Kosovo. It included widespread atrocities, and it was clear that immediate action was necessary to protect innocent civilian lives. The intervention by Canada and other countries was not only justified but also essential in ending the conflict and preventing further bloodshed.

I agree, while Saddam Hussein's regime was undoubtedly brutal, the situation in Iraq was not a clear-cut case of humanitarian intervention. The evidence for weapons of mass destruction was later discredited. I will have that documentary this weekend on my thread on how Dick Cheney, a man that ran away from the Vietnam war (he was afraid to join the military in my view), went against CIA analysts because either he had an interest, an old fight of the Bush family or he just despised the CIA for whatever reason, even though it was the CIA which protects him and his country. A mediocre politician who sent people to war and humiliated the intelligence agency because he was a coward, in my estimation. 

Canada is the country which wrote the R2P law

if that didn't apply to Iraq, then it didn't apply anywhere

[Dougie93]

like In Yugolslaveia

the Croats were often the aggressors

take for example the Medak Pocket

that was CANBAT 1 trying to stop the Croats from ethnically cleansing the Serbs

but in Iraq, it was straight up genocidal mass murder against Kurds & Shia

and it was entirely Saddam Hussein perpetrating that, there wasn't two sides in Iraq

[Dougie93]

at the end of the day, George W. Bush was following Canadian doctrine

Canada is the one who invokes all these humanitarian rubrics for intervention

but when it comes time to pony up

Canada invents all these cynical reasons why Canada will not participate

it's like at the Medak Pocket

Canada could have stopped that cold in its tracks

the PPCLI was stopping it

then Canada comes along and tells them to get out of the way

so that the Croats could mass murder the Serbs

and the Canadian troops just had to stand aside and watch it

Canada is not more noble than America

Canada is just as if not more cynical

Canada will throw everybody under the bus, Canada's own troops included

Edited May 4, 2023 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

18 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I disagree, I think is inaccurate to portray any one group as uniformly the aggressor. While it is true that Croatian forces were accused of committing war crimes and ethnic cleansing during the conflict, it is also true that other groups, including Bosnian Serbs and other forces, were also accused of committing atrocities. For example, the Srebrenica massacre, in which Bosnian Serb forces killed thousands of Bosnian Muslim men, is widely recognized as an act of genocide.

It is important to recognize that the Yugoslav Wars were not just a series of isolated incidents of violence, but rather a complex and interconnected conflict involving multiple parties with their own goals and agendas. Tribalism, every group did it in that region is my take. 

I agree 100 % , all sides were guilty of war crimes, and committing ethic cleansing, but in my experience over there no one as bad as the Serbs, who were also doing it in Kosovo as well...But a lot of this could have been prevented if the UN used it military forces to intervene instead of just watching and recording for future war crimes tribunals which really did not produce any meaningful arrests.

Canadian forces faced almost the same thing as Srebrenica, when we were investigating the sudden appearance of dead bodies floating by in the river that ran by our camp. a few KM's up the road  Serbs were killing military age males by the bus loads, when we discovered this they had civilians lined up next to the river, and one by one they would be marched out to thigh high water, were a Serb soldier would smack them on the top of the head with a hugh wooden hammer the bodies would be taken by the current a floated down stream...

Our orders came back for NY HQ were to record on video them killing these civilians...for future criminal trails...not one of those Mother F****ers faced any charges...we would find out later that this type of killing was normal, and was reported all around our area...That was the first time i was disgusted to wear my uniform, it was also the last UN mission i went on. I did complete 2 other tours in Bosnia but under NATO, and none of that stuff went on during the time NATO was in change, NATO did not put up with any shit, and it was armed to the teeth and very willing to use them, once peace came to the region the conflict changed to more of a policing theme, fighting organized crime activities, mafia crime families played a huge role during the later days of the mission...

Most of the problem with that conflict was the fact the UN was a toothless organization, civilians running a military operation has never worked... just look at their successes, and failures, most are failures... because of this all sides in this conflict knew we could do nothing they pleased... not sure how the Medak pocket came about to be, but i'm sure the UN had very little to do with it... 

[SpankyMcFarland]

21 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

see, I think history will absolve George W. Bush

as Iraq is already the only functioning democracy in the Arabian Peninsula

Iraq will over time become the South Korea of the Middle East

and Canada will look foolish for siding with Saddam Hussein instead

To whom exactly will ‘we look’ foolish for sitting this hare-brained disaster out? To the thousands of Iraqi families whose loved ones were killed or maimed in the invasion or in the chaos since? Will Canadian soldiers protest that they should have had the chance to lose their lives over there? Even US Republicans have turned their backs on the neoconservatives.
 

BTW that comparison with the kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula is a stretch for multiple reasons. Most of Iraq is not part of the peninsula. 

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

To whom exactly will ‘we look’ foolish for sitting this hare-brained disaster out?

well except Canada didn't sit it out

Canada deployed troops & CF-18's to Iraq in the end

Canada abandoned America for political expediency

then flip flopped

so Canada ends up talking out of both sides of its mouth

[SpankyMcFarland]

52 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

well except Canada didn't sit it out

Canada deployed troops & CF-18's to Iraq in the end

Canada abandoned America for political expediency

then flip flopped

so Canada ends up talking out of both sides of its mouth

A very small number of soldiers were risked, thank God. With Harper in charge we’d have seen lots of body bags coming back. 

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

A very small number of soldiers were risked, thank God.

it was a CANSOFCOM tasking

only one KIA

Sergeant Andrew Doiron of the Canadian Special Operations Regiment

at the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them