On vaccines

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Please do.

Some democrats take on the lab leak theory?

Or some republicans take on the proven lab leak?? Doh.

My point in this discussion is not to validate either side but to say, the Americans seem to be the only ones that care anymore and that is probably (my opinion) to deflect from their insufferable internal problems.

Just because you don't care, now that the truth is coming out against you, doesn't mean rest of us don't.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by OftenWrong

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Just because you don't care, now that the truth is coming out against you, doesn't mean rest of us don't.

 

What truth?? There are only theories. No proof, just accusations and conjecture from Americans.

What I am saying , and said from the beginning, is that without corroboration from China, no one has anything concrete and I am pretty sure China will not incriminate itself.

As for caring, making this about me is a clear waste of effort. Then again, there are clearly a half dozen here on this forum obsessed with it but hey, y'all can live in your paranoid world wearing your tin foil hats.  LOL

Edited March 4, 2023 by ExFlyer

[myata]

We don't need corroborations beyond reasonable doubt here. This is not a Universal court of justice. A failure to show factual animal chain that produced virus with these characteristics in reality not some domain of probabilities combined with the known facts at the time of origin including now obvious coverup, make the lab version plausible, and in the absence of other physical possibilities, most likely. And that is enough already to make conclusions for policy, interactions, cooperation and so on.

[ExFlyer]

6 hours ago, myata said:

We don't need corroborations beyond reasonable doubt here. This is not a Universal court of justice. A failure to show factual animal chain that produced virus with these characteristics in reality not some domain of probabilities combined with the known facts at the time of origin including now obvious coverup, make the lab version plausible, and in the absence of other physical possibilities, most likely. And that is enough already to make conclusions for policy, interactions, cooperation and so on.

This is not an American court. There is no conviction for "beyond reasonable doubt" in world court.

Everything you have said is in the "domain of possibility" but none of it is established fact.

Anyone can "make conclusions" on suspicion or hearsay but none of it is positive proof enough for anything.

Like I said, l  am not in any way a friend of or defending China, as I see them a bigger threat that the USSR ever was but, I am also not one that throws accusations around before all evidence has established indisputable facts.

Remember the 2 Chinese scientists that were thrown out of Canada in 2019? The ones that worked in the infectious disease lab in Winnipeg? Maybe they carried the virus from Winnipeg to China??

[OftenWrong]

‘"The Energy Department’s conclusion is the result of new intelligence and is significant because the agency has considerable scientific expertise and oversees a network of U.S. national laboratories, some of which conduct advanced biological research,’ the Wall Street Journal report said."

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Remember the 2 Chinese scientists that were thrown out of Canada in 2019? The ones that worked in the infectious disease lab in Winnipeg? Maybe they carried the virus from Winnipeg to China??

It's not likely they carried the virus but they might have illegally shpped some samples to the Wuhan institute. Sorry, I should give the proper name "Wuhan Novel Respiratory Coronavirus Lab".

The reason why they were suddenly deported in August 2019 is being kept a secret. However the director of the WInnipeg lab was dismissed two months later after a federal investigation claiming "administrative errors". There is evidence it had to do with noncompliance in shipping of dangerous goods.

[myata]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Everything you have said is in the "domain of possibility" but none of it is established fact.

Anyone can "make conclusions" on suspicion or hearsay but none of it is positive proof enough for anything.

On top of these options, there's also reasonable conclusions based on known facts and principles of logic including Occam's razor. Do we need to invent unknown animal chains with zero evidence if and when known facts (including that new intelligence) point to a very realistic possibility that happened, not once and will happen again and again.

Just amusing how all of these great scientific principles poured on the freshmen enthusiastically fly out the window when it whiffs of political expedience and just possibly, nice cash grants. Great job, Professor. Make Galileo with Newton proud.

Edited March 5, 2023 by myata

[ExFlyer]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It's not likely they carried the virus but they might have illegally shpped some samples to the Wuhan institute. Sorry, I should give the proper name "Wuhan Novel Respiratory Coronavirus Lab".

The reason why they were suddenly deported in August 2019 is being kept a secret. However the director of the WInnipeg lab was dismissed two months later after a federal investigation claiming "administrative errors". There is evidence it had to do with noncompliance in shipping of dangerous goods.

Point was and is, my comment about the 2 Chinese scientists has as much conjecture and theory as the topic writers post.

Shipping corona virus??

I have no idea. I just made that up to point out one theory is as good as another and without proof, it is just a theory..

[ExFlyer]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

On top of these options, there's also reasonable conclusions based on known facts and principles of logic including Occam's razor. Do we need to invent unknown animal chains with zero evidence if and when known facts (including that new intelligence) point to a very realistic possibility that happened, not once and will happen again and again.

Just amusing how all of these great scientific principles poured on the freshmen enthusiastically fly out the window when it whiffs of political expedience and just possibly, nice cash grants. Great job, Professor. Make Galileo with Newton proud.

WTF???

Sit down, take several deep breaths, close your eyes, relax.

 

[OftenWrong]

15 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Point was and is, my comment about the 2 Chinese scientists has as much conjecture and theory as the topic writers post.

Shipping corona virus??

I have no idea. I just made that up to point out one theory is as good as another and without proof, it is just a theory..

That's nice, enjoy your conjectures. Me, I'm for the facts. As in factum.

[ExFlyer]

47 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

That's nice, enjoy your conjectures. Me, I'm for the facts. As in factum.

OK for sure, me to. It's all about the facts

That is why I am not fully buying into the Myata posts.

[myata]

You don't need to buy anything, but you can think for yourself never occurred?

A. There has to be an unknown animal chain, look it looks so pretty (in this paper) who cares that it hasn't been found.

B. A secret lab in a totalitarian state with zero transparency that has been working with similar agents with multiple indirect indications pointing at a possibility of a leak incident. Plus new undisclosed evidence. Plus the established fact of an attempt to cover it up.

Which one is more plausible here? Can't decide? Take it to a third grader.

What is amazing and seriously worrying here is not that these conclusions are coming to light now but how long the natural origin thing was allowed to dominate. How did it happen, in the world of supposedly rigorous and transparent modern science? A mystery more astounding than the origin of Covid. Authority doesn't matter, only facts and reason, the evidence? Sure. Just watch it.

[ExFlyer]

21 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

‘"The Energy Department’s conclusion is the result of new intelligence and is significant because the agency has considerable scientific expertise and oversees a network of U.S. national laboratories, some of which conduct advanced biological research,’ the Wall Street Journal report said."

Another US "department" with their "intelligence". 

 

[ExFlyer]

6 hours ago, myata said:

You don't need to buy anything, but you can think for yourself never occurred?

A. There has to be an unknown animal chain, look it looks so pretty (in this paper) who cares that it hasn't been found.

B. A secret lab in a totalitarian state with zero transparency that has been working with similar agents with multiple indirect indications pointing at a possibility of a leak incident. Plus new undisclosed evidence. Plus the established fact of an attempt to cover it up.

Which one is more plausible here? Can't decide? Take it to a third grader.

What is amazing and seriously worrying here is not that these conclusions are coming to light now but how long the natural origin thing was allowed to dominate. How did it happen, in the world of supposedly rigorous and transparent modern science? A mystery more astounding than the origin of Covid. Authority doesn't matter, only facts and reason, the evidence? Sure. Just watch it.

There has to be an "unknown animal chain"?  OK, is is known or unknown??

A secret lab?? Where is that? The one in Winnipeg that threw out 2 Chinese scientist and we still do not know why? What was going on in that "secret lab"?

"new undisclosed evidence"? OK, what is that? New? Undisclosed?

I will fully accept all "facts" and "evidence" presented but your comments about "secret", undisclosed" and "unknown" only indicates you have no facts or evidence..

 

[myata]

That's right. Only logic and facts and nothing unnecessary (that is Occam's razor):

- A leak from totalitarian lab: can happen any one day. Indirect indications and coincidences; plus undisclosed evidence.

- Animal transmission chain: may but does not exist (as yet).

Which of the two would you judge as more likely, based on available information? Wrong! ExSpert knows better!

[myata]

Reading the piece that's routinely quoted as convincing evidence for "animal origin" and can't help being amazed at the obvious logical gaps combined with overconfidence of the claims.

Gap 1: epicenter of a developing epidemics may not be the same as the origin

Cases used in the analysis are reported at the time when epidemics was already developing. All were of December 2019 (155) without, at a quick look distribution by the date. Yet the first cases were reported in very early December and even late November so the origin case has to be still earlier as it isn't not likely that the very first cases were detected given similarity with regular infections. The value of detailed description of various market features is negligible because the whole premise of the market being the origin as opposed to a natural transmission hub hinges on a single sample produced by Chinese authorities at a later time, clearly not an impartial agent in this story.

We know that incubation period of Covid is 5 to ten days yet all cases thrown onto the same map like they happened at the same time. Smart.

I cannot fathom why the data being so detailed in the market-related aspects lacks a simple distribution of cases by the time of report.

So we know the market has been an active point in spreading the infection, but very weak indication of the actual origin.

Gap 2: animal connection is so weak down to well ok nothing. How this passed peer review, another great modern mystery. Basically none, except that some live animals sold there that could have been potential carriers if identified as such that they were not. Great evidence, there. Overall, if there is, without more confident evidence, a better example of the famous correlation-causation fallacy it wouldn't be easy to find.

Look we have Covid here and animals are sold here so Covid has to be from animals, right? Wait. What if it's there because so many people come to buy animals? Just great.

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by myata

[Goddess]

7 hours ago, myata said:

How this passed peer review, another great modern mystery.

It's actually not a mystery.

Fauci was funding the GoF research on bat coronaviruses through EcoHealth with Daszak, the Chinese "bat lady" and Baric doing the work at the Wuhan lab.  The grant funding given to them, documents that they were doing the exact research that sounds a LOT like what became covid, right down to the funky furin cleavage site.

Fauci took the lead in covering this up in N. America, he go caught lying to Congress about it and Daszak made sure he was on BOTH committees appointed to investigate a possible lab leak.  Guess where those investigations led?  Go on.  Guess.

This is like finding your 2 year old with his hand in the cookie jar, crumbs all over his shirt and chocolate all over his face, asking him if he's been eating the cookies and him saying "No" and expecting you to believe him.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Goddess

[Goddess]

7 hours ago, myata said:

Gap 2: animal connection is so weak down to well ok nothing.

Coronaviruses do not become infectious to humans until they pass through several species.

After testing more than 80,000 species, there is still no evidence that it passed through any species, other than bats.

The problem here, is that scientists can do "passaging" of the viruses in a lab that speeds up the process of creating a more infectious (to humans) virus.  And it's virtually undetectable.

This happens to be the exact GoF research that Daszak, Baric and the Chinese "bat lady" were doing in Wuhan, 2 blocks from the market, funded by Fauci - who owns millions of dollars in shares of Moderna.

Anyone who doesn't smell the stink from all this, is lying to themselves.

[Goddess]

On 3/5/2023 at 8:49 AM, OftenWrong said:

‘"The Energy Department’s conclusion is the result of new intelligence and is significant because the agency has considerable scientific expertise and oversees a network of U.S. national laboratories, some of which conduct advanced biological research,’ the Wall Street Journal report said."

I'm interested in knowing what this "new evidence" is, because the evidence we already had, coupled with the obvious cover-up, was already pretty damning.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Goddess

[OftenWrong]

16 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Another US "department" with their "intelligence". 

 

It can be useful.

Should try it sometime.  

[myata]

6 hours ago, Goddess said:

Fauci took the lead in covering this up in N. America, he go caught lying to Congress about it and Daszak made sure he was on BOTH committees appointed to investigate a possible lab leak.  Guess where those investigations led?  Go on.  Guess.

Can't confirm any of these, but the piece itself paraded as some glorious achievement of modern science (naively or not so necessarily, not ready to conclude) makes me worried for its future. If it's so easy to compromise, suppress legitimate questions and pump out an unproven hypothesis with next to zero factual evidence as the leading theory, wouldn't you be?

Edited March 7, 2023 by myata

[myata]

Interesting. This is no conspiracies, a reputable edition Forbes: Lab theory timeline.

Look here:

"March 7, 2020

A group of scientists sign an open letter condemning the “conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin”; this letter is later scrutinized, as one of its signers, Peter Daszak, is the head of EcoHealth Alliance, a group that has does work in China at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which some saw as a conflict of interest".

To recall, in many countries Covid only began to develop into a serious epidemic in February - March time frame. And looks like they already knew something about its origin. Something that we don't know today.

And while at it, what Fauci said.

More interesting stuff here. Memorandum of US House on released emails, Dr. Fauci and others. References to possibility of genetic modification. Only reputable published information, no conspiracies.

Edited March 7, 2023 by myata

[Nationalist]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:23 AM, ExFlyer said:

Gave several links. Read them.  No need to fix anything.

Like I said, "clown-fella", "Science advances regularly, some minds and perceptions lag behind. ".

Science? It's been destroyed by Fauci and his lies. Only a complete lemming would believe anything they say anymore.

"Follow the science!"

Pfft...fck the liars.

[ExFlyer]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

It can be useful.

Should try it sometime.  

Not when the "departments" all have different takes on things.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Science? It's been destroyed by Fauci and his lies. Only a complete lemming would believe anything they say anymore.

"Follow the science!"

Pfft...fck the liars.

HA HA HA.

You actually are blaming one person for destroying science LOL  Because you don't agree?? Pretty full of yourself eh? LOL

Who are "they"?