Abortion should be banned in the United States (my first topic).

[robosmith]

4 hours ago, Iteration said:

That is fine, I just want to debate our positions and see if there are actually any good pro choice arguments. It seems as if the responses I am getting lead to insane conclusions. For example, someone above said citizenship should determine whether or not one has rights, entailing that he believes you should be able to stab all illegal immigrants to death, or even enslave them. 

Do you have any pro choice argument? This goes for everyone as well, or is the goal just to talk with no purpose. 

Read it again. You've made a FAULTY INTERPRETATION. Nowhere did I state YOUR INTERPRETATION.

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, Iteration said:

I don't understand why people would be so scared just to give an argument for the legality of abortion. 

The argument is simple. The woman has the right to choose abortion before birth because otherwise her rights are abridged.

After birth, the new born no longer depends solely on the mother for support.

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why does a pro-choice person get to impose their views on unborn babies?

They ARE NOT. They are giving the woman the RIGHT TO CHOOSE, since that is the one who bears the sacrifice and BURDEN.

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

the SCOTUS has determined that it is not written into the Bill of Rights

thus it falls to the states to decide

when you invoke "Inalienable rights endowed by the Creator"

that is not actually federal

those are states rights

The SCOTUS is cherry picking which rights are covered by the 9th amendment.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, robosmith said:

The SCOTUS is cherry picking which rights are covered by the 9th amendment.

no, Roe v. Wade was asserted by the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment

asserting that the amendment included a fundamental "right to privacy" therein

and somehow that amounted to a fundamental right to abortion

the SCOTUS has simply ruled that there is no fundamental right to abortion in the amendment after all

thus automatically sending it back to the states to rule upon, by the Tenth Amendment

 

[Dougie93]

bear in mind that the SCOTUS has not ruled that there could not be a fundamental right to abortion

all they have said is that you will have to follow the process and pass a constitutional amendment to do it

could be done, with a two thirds veto proof supermajority in both houses of Congress

ratified by three fourths of the state legislatures

[Iteration]

@robosmith

You stated that citizenship determines whether or not someone has rights. Therefore, under your view, illegal immigrants, who are not citizens, would not have rights. Thus, you would have to commit yourself to saying it would be ethical to rape/enslave them. Where do you object, because your statements are publicly visible in this chat. 

Quote

The woman has the right to choose abortion before birth because otherwise her rights are abridged.

What rights? 

Conclusions
1. Your positions entails that it is ethical to commit a holocaust against illegal immigrants. I want this addressed. 

[West]

17 minutes ago, robosmith said:

They ARE NOT. They are giving the woman the RIGHT TO CHOOSE, since that is the one who bears the sacrifice and BURDEN.

They are because they get to choose which lives are valuable and which are not...

[Iteration]

Quote

No, I said DIFFERENT RIGHTS. Fetus have different rights than born humans. Duh

Okay, so what rights do citizens have and which rights do they not have, and what is the argument for your criteria? Secondly, do they have the right to life?

Edited October 9, 2022 by Iteration
punctuation

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Iteration said:

@robosmith

You stated that citizenship determines whether or not someone has rights.

that's not the case in America

anyone on American soil is protected by the constitution

illegal immigrants are still subject to deportation however, after receiving due process

[Iteration]

This is exactly why I stated that the pro choice position is silly to me. These people can't even make good arguments, or any argument for that matter. 

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Iteration said:

This is exactly why I stated that the pro choice position is silly to me. These people can't even make good arguments, or any argument for that matter. 

a federal law banning abortion however, could be easily repealed

for an entrenched federal ban on abortion,

you would need a prohibitory constitutional amendment like the 18th Amendment of 1919

 

[Iteration]

@Dougie93

Do not quote me again if you are going to weasel away from the actual conversation. I am done with you. 

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Iteration said:

@Dougie93

Do not quote me again if you are going to weasel away from the actual conversation. I am done with you. 

regardless, with over 60% of Americans supporting legalization,  I don't foresee a federal ban on abortion

smartly, the Pro-Life movement is not even pursuing that, knowing full well that states rights is the better option

[Iteration]

So, does anyone have an argument for abortion, preferably in a syllogism? 

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

There was NO CONFLICT of human RIGHTS for slave owners to own slaves.

Lol wut?

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Because until it is BORN, it is DEPENDENT on the sacrifices of the woman.

No, after it is born is it also dependent on the sacrifices of the woman (and parents).

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Being male, you have NO STANDING to advocate the sacrifice of rights for a female cause you have NO SKIN in that game.

This is exactly like saying "being a non-slave owner, you have NO STANDING to advocate for the rights of a slave cause you have NO SKIN in that game."

And exactly the same as saying "being a non-German, you have NO STANDING to advocate for the rights of Jews in Germany cause you have NO SKIN in that game."

 

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

no, Roe v. Wade was asserted by the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment

asserting that the amendment included a fundamental "right to privacy" therein

and somehow that amounted to a fundamental right to abortion

the SCOTUS has simply ruled that there is no fundamental right to abortion in the amendment after all

thus automatically sending it back to the states to rule upon, by the Tenth Amendment

 

The 9th amendment specifically states that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The SCOTUS rescinded Roe based on the allegation it was not written in the Constitution, but the 9th amendment specifically states that rights NEED NOT be mentioned AT ALL.

Or course the rest of that opinion was complete garbage in the way it cited 16th century legal opinions from Britain when women were executed for being witches AND the lame "deeply rooted" justification.  

 

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, West said:

They are because they get to choose which lives are valuable and which are not...

Right. Cause it's ONLY a matter of OPINION that fetus or earlier deserve human rights comparable to the woman who OBVIOUSLY DOES.

IT IS A CONFLICT OF RIGHTS. I say the woman's rights are superior because she is born and a citizen.

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, Iteration said:

Okay, so what rights do citizens have and which rights do they not have, and what is the argument for your criteria? Secondly, do they have the right to life?

Do your own research. I am NOT your research assistant.

Born humans always have the right to life unless they threaten the life of other born humans and then only to stop that crime.

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

that's not the case in America

anyone on American soil is protected by the constitution

illegal immigrants are still subject to deportation however, after receiving due process

Citizens have MORE RIGHTS and therefore DIFFERENT.

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, Iteration said:

This is exactly why I stated that the pro choice position is silly to me. These people can't even make good arguments, or any argument for that matter. 

Apparently you are BLIND to any arguments with which you disagree. LMAO

[robosmith]

2 hours ago, Iteration said:

So, does anyone have an argument for abortion, preferably in a syllogism? 

I'll bet you are TOO YOUNG to know what abortion was like back when it was illegal.

But you still believe you have all the answers. ?

Many desperate women DIED from unsafe abortions, and Roe SOLVED that problem.

Too bad it didn't solve the problem of kids not learning HISTORY.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Lol wut?

There is no conflict of rights for slave owners because owning humans is NOT a basic human right.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

No, after it is born is it also dependent on the sacrifices of the woman (and parents).

Sorry you are wrong. After birth, ANYONE so inclined can perform that role.

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

This is exactly like saying "being a non-slave owner, you have NO STANDING to advocate for the rights of a slave cause you have NO SKIN in that game."

Sorry, wrong again. Back then ANYONE could own a slave. As a male you will never be pregnant.

Do you think before you type?

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

And exactly the same as saying "being a non-German, you have NO STANDING to advocate for the rights of Jews in Germany cause you have NO SKIN in that game."

 

Except you are NOT advocating for the rights of women whose rights are in CONFLICT with any POTENTIAL HUMAN life they bear.

[West]

35 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Right. Cause it's ONLY a matter of OPINION that fetus or earlier deserve human rights comparable to the woman who OBVIOUSLY DOES.

IT IS A CONFLICT OF RIGHTS. I say the woman's rights are superior because she is born and a citizen.

I say life trumps all. Your rights end where you are trying to take a life. 

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, West said:

I say life trumps all. Your rights end where you are trying to take a life. 

You're entitled to ^this opinion. Just don't try to force it on OTHERS when it will never affect your rights but will DENY theirs.