The Opioid Toll that Alberta Tried to Hide

[herbie]

Okay, you pointed the blame.

So WTF are you gonna do about it?

Reminds me of the early days of Covid when the trollers were only interested in who to blame rather than doing anything about it. And again how they ridiculed anyone or any agency that even tried.

Almost no one is dying from pure drugs. No one is dying at all in safe sites. SO how does doing SFA gonna stop people dying? That's the problem everyone is trying to address.

[ExFlyer]

14 hours ago, herbie said:

Okay, you pointed the blame.

So WTF are you gonna do about it?

Reminds me of the early days of Covid when the trollers were only interested in who to blame rather than doing anything about it. And again how they ridiculed anyone or any agency that even tried.

Almost no one is dying from pure drugs. No one is dying at all in safe sites. SO how does doing SFA gonna stop people dying? That's the problem everyone is trying to address.

Who are you asking??

Finding the cause and origins and laying blame are 2 different things. Finding root cause is the beginning of doing something about it.

I disagree with your statement that no one is dying at safe injection sites. In my city there are deaths there from overdose frequently.

No one is dying from "pure drugs"? Meaning what? Get drugs tested before injection? It is all illegal activity from manufacture, to distribution to usage. Are you somehow insinuating government should get in the manufacture and distribution business like with pot?

What was done before safe injection sites? Seems to me that statistically, deaths are much worse now than before. Making it easier and "safer" does not seem to discourage drug use and the terrible consequences. Saying it would be worse without the safe sites is as undefendlable as me saying the safe sites have caused more deaths and addicts.

 

 

 

 

[herbie]

Once again you repeat who to blame rather than offer any solution. In BC overdose deaths were outpacing deaths from Covid, people died because ambulances were tied up with overdoses and the cost of dealing with addiction, associated crime, added emergency care are rising. Try a nice stroll around Hastings and main and avoid the discarded needles and passed out addicts in every other doorway.

It's more than obvious that using the LAW hasn't worked, doesn't work and never will work so pointing out the law itself is doubling down on a proven failure. These people need help, not punishment.

Another fallacy you pointed to is that a few people still overdose despite clinics and safe sites, therefore it proves failure because it's not 100% effective. The same argument Covidiots use to insist vaccines are useless. Because if you get hit head on by a dump truck, a seatbelt won't help you. That you can keep smoking because some non-smokers still get lung cancer.

My kid didn't OD because there were clinics and safe sites, he died because he wouldn't use them. He denied to the very end he had a problem - the stigma of entering one was too much - because the majority of us have shitty judgemental attitudes that contribute to the problem.

[ExFlyer]

20 hours ago, herbie said:

Once again you repeat who to blame rather than offer any solution. In BC overdose deaths were outpacing deaths from Covid, people died because ambulances were tied up with overdoses and the cost of dealing with addiction, associated crime, added emergency care are rising. Try a nice stroll around Hastings and main and avoid the discarded needles and passed out addicts in every other doorway.

It's more than obvious that using the LAW hasn't worked, doesn't work and never will work so pointing out the law itself is doubling down on a proven failure. These people need help, not punishment.

Another fallacy you pointed to is that a few people still overdose despite clinics and safe sites, therefore it proves failure because it's not 100% effective. The same argument Covidiots use to insist vaccines are useless. Because if you get hit head on by a dump truck, a seatbelt won't help you. That you can keep smoking because some non-smokers still get lung cancer.

My kid didn't OD because there were clinics and safe sites, he died because he wouldn't use them. He denied to the very end he had a problem - the stigma of entering one was too much - because the majority of us have shitty judgemental attitudes that contribute to the problem.

Making observations and stating facts is not blaming, it is juts stating what it is.

My solution is not to lessen or change the laws, it is to enforce the existing laws with vigour.

Your comment about your child overdosing because he would not go to the safe sites is kind of strange. if he did not seek help, maybe forcing help is required. Is that punishment or help?

Again, sorry for your loss and sorrow but to critisize others for no solution while you have non yourself is a bit rich.

[herbie]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

My solution is not to lessen or change the laws, it is to enforce the existing laws with vigour.

Which does not work!

Look at almost 100 years of evidence when forming your opinion. Countries with the death penalty still have the same problem, or you wouldn't read about the executions all the time. States with 3 strikes laws have even more prisoners than we do. Countries like Portugal have actually seen progress.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Which does not work!

Look at almost 100 years of evidence when forming your opinion. Countries with the death penalty still have the same problem, or you wouldn't read about the executions all the time. States with 3 strikes laws have even more prisoners than we do. Countries like Portugal have actually seen progress.

You asked and I offered. I asked you and you offered nothing.

Well, look at the evidence from the past few years when things were made easier. Record deaths every year so that is not helping either.

Portugal also only has 10 million people, less than Ontario alone. So, statically alone, drug use is a very small problem in Portugal. Portugal still penalizes drug distributors and users and if caught, users are forced to go into programs.

[herbie]

You heard what I offer as a better solution.

1. Decriminalize possession of small amounts in all Canada

2. Allow Doctors to prescribe and monitor alternatives

3. Increase support for mental health services

4. Lock up dealers for a LONG TIME.

Forcing people into rehab doesn't work. Shit my kid checked out within 24 hrs several times, he literally dragged  his ass out of hospitals bleeding, stroked out, broken bones and gave the usual litany about stoopid doctors, all a plot, etc. etc. because he was Jonesing for a hit.

The Band Office runs a few centres here deep in the bush and ppl have still died trying to walk back to town. Some addicts just go into rehab or jail just to get fed and gain strength so they can go right back to it again.

 

[ExFlyer]

11 hours ago, herbie said:

You heard what I offer as a better solution.

1. Decriminalize possession of small amounts in all Canada

2. Allow Doctors to prescribe and monitor alternatives

3. Increase support for mental health services

4. Lock up dealers for a LONG TIME.

Forcing people into rehab doesn't work. Shit my kid checked out within 24 hrs several times, he literally dragged  his ass out of hospitals bleeding, stroked out, broken bones and gave the usual litany about stoopid doctors, all a plot, etc. etc. because he was Jonesing for a hit.

The Band Office runs a few centres here deep in the bush and ppl have still died trying to walk back to town. Some addicts just go into rehab or jail just to get fed and gain strength so they can go right back to it again.

 

1. So let addicts have their fun?

2. Doctors to prescribe heroin? Cocaine?

3. There are already programs, many of them.... they go unused as your son decided not to use or walk away. Do not let them walk away or is that too much like imprisonment?

4. There we agree. But how does it work? If there are fewer users, there would be fewer traffickers. Who is the dog and who is wagging the tail?

As for your Band in the deep bush, well controlling deep bush activities is your band responsibility. Your small community knows exactly who brings it in and who is on it.

[ExFlyer]

On 7/17/2022 at 9:56 PM, herbie said:

You heard what I offer as a better solution.

1. Decriminalize possession of small amounts in all Canada

2. Allow Doctors to prescribe and monitor alternatives

3. Increase support for mental health services

4. Lock up dealers for a LONG TIME.

Forcing people into rehab doesn't work. Shit my kid checked out within 24 hrs several times, he literally dragged  his ass out of hospitals bleeding, stroked out, broken bones and gave the usual litany about stoopid doctors, all a plot, etc. etc. because he was Jonesing for a hit.

The Band Office runs a few centres here deep in the bush and ppl have still died trying to walk back to town. Some addicts just go into rehab or jail just to get fed and gain strength so they can go right back to it again.

 

I just read something that makes sense. Following your train of thought.

 

"People are going to take drugs, whether is it prescription, pure heroin or synthetics. Legalizing like with marijuana or decriminalizing will have consequences.

There will be a surge in overdoses. A much higher percentage of the population that does not contribute anything to society will indulge. Also then, the bunches of drug dealers will be looking for different crimes to commit  because the government has taken over their jobs.

So, who really knows what will happen but letting it happen and then realizing it was mistake will be impossible to reverse."

 

 

[herbie]

I thought for years that the overdose crisis was a self-solving problem. Surely after several years they'd all OD and die off, Darwinian style.

But both of us were wrong, there's a hell of a lot more drug users than I ever estimated and I was a full blown 1960s-70s pothead. Now they're doing meth and opioids like we smoked joints. Goddam house down the street just had 2 hauled away by the Coroner - ppl in their 40s.

A friend is moving back to Albera, supposedly because of the shitty level of health care in this small town. Truthfully, because no doctor here will ever give a prescription fore more than a few oxys. The guy goes back to AB all the time as a doctor there give him 6 month scrips. He even popped a couple over dinner the other night because "his foot was feeling numb". He had his major surgery over a dozen years ago and his been on them since.

Like the whole guy is numb. I'm one of his few friends as no one else has the patience for him to spit out a complete sentence. He's 64 and he's an addict, but would never admit it.

[ExFlyer]

14 hours ago, herbie said:

I thought for years that the overdose crisis was a self-solving problem. Surely after several years they'd all OD and die off, Darwinian style.

But both of us were wrong, there's a hell of a lot more drug users than I ever estimated and I was a full blown 1960s-70s pothead. Now they're doing meth and opioids like we smoked joints. Goddam house down the street just had 2 hauled away by the Coroner - ppl in their 40s.

A friend is moving back to Albera, supposedly because of the shitty level of health care in this small town. Truthfully, because no doctor here will ever give a prescription fore more than a few oxys. The guy goes back to AB all the time as a doctor there give him 6 month scrips. He even popped a couple over dinner the other night because "his foot was feeling numb". He had his major surgery over a dozen years ago and his been on them since.

Like the whole guy is numb. I'm one of his few friends as no one else has the patience for him to spit out a complete sentence. He's 64 and he's an addict, but would never admit it.

Yes there is more now than ever.

What is the root cause though?

Cheaper drugs? Easier access? Or your area and the people in it?

Or, maybe no consequences to selling, buying and using? Cannot put all the blame on doctors as I am sure there is more illicit drug use than prescribed and many,if not most, drug users begin with illicit drugs.

[herbie]

Big Pharma caused a lot of it by stating minimal risks and pushing doctors to prescribe opioids. BC just won a huge settlement against one.

My buddy had a problem years ago... he's still using them. I have no doubt if he didn't have the fall back of that unethical doctor in Alberta, he'd either be in rehab or looking for street replacements. His old lady had knee surgery a year ago and still pissing and moaning about pain. Candidate in the waiting.

Another friend took a bullet in VietNam and decided morphine made him dul and stupid. He lost a leg a couple years ago and told his doctor to shove the morphine after a couple weeks and uses gummies if the pain really upsets him.

When I had severe arthritis in my back my doctor told me no oxys. How could I maintain their computers if I was zonked out of my head. Exactly what I thought! But many of us aren't like that. The slightest discomfort or stress and off they go popping pills. I was married to one for 20 years. Skip work, pop Valium and chug a six pack while she was 'studying', ignore the kids and tell them they were the cause of it if they pointed out her habits...

Like I said, a lot of people are like that, Way more than most of us suspect. They're hidden out of sight in their homes and apartments, or just functional enough we don't look too hard.

[eyeball]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:12 AM, ExFlyer said:

No one is dying from "pure drugs"? Meaning what? Get drugs tested before injection? It is all illegal activity from manufacture, to distribution to usage. Are you somehow insinuating government should get in the manufacture and distribution business like with pot?

More like alcohol, no one ever died from pot.  Doing something about people dying from bootlegged booze laced with dangerous additives intended to make it stronger was one amongst many arguments for ending prohibition. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by eyeball

[ExFlyer]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

More like alcohol, no one ever died from pot.  Doing something about people dying from bootlegged booze laced with dangerous additives intended to make it stronger was one amongst many arguments for ending prohibition. 

So you are insinuating government sells drugs like they do liquor?

 

Did government cannabis stores shut down the illicit pot dealers?

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

So you are insinuating government sells drugs like they do liquor?

No I'm insinuating that it should.

Quote

Did government cannabis stores shut down the illicit pot dealers?

No. Were thousands of people dying from smoking poisoned pot?

Edited July 30, 2022 by eyeball

[ExFlyer]

23 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No I'm insinuating that it should.

No. Were thousands of people dying from smoking poisoned pot?

At one time when pot was laced with meth, PCP, Ketamine, even heroin among other things, yes.

[eyeball]

54 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

At one time when pot was laced with meth, PCP, Ketamine, even heroin among other things, yes.

Thousands died?

Bullshit.

 

[ExFlyer]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Thousands died?

Bullshit.

 

OK, have it your way.

[eyeball]

16 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

OK, have it your way.

Ok, looks like I just did.

[ExFlyer]

21 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Ok, looks like I just did.

No, just not worth it.

[herbie]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:34 AM, ExFlyer said:

At one time when pot was laced with meth, PCP, Ketamine, even heroin among other things, yes.

That time in your imagination? Like when they mixed 50 yr old Scotch in your Budweiser?
"They" don't mix more expensive stuff into the cheap stuff FFS. That's why fentanyl - cheaper, easier to get, and over 5X stronger. Bigger profit margin.

[ExFlyer]

11 hours ago, herbie said:

That time in your imagination? Like when they mixed 50 yr old Scotch in your Budweiser?
"They" don't mix more expensive stuff into the cheap stuff FFS. That's why fentanyl - cheaper, easier to get, and over 5X stronger. Bigger profit margin.

I think you need to open your eyes.

Lacing with fentanyl is bad for business, they lose customers.

Lacing marijuana with other drugs is an old way for traffickers getting people hooked on other things. They have been lacing marijuana for decades, even with codeine and embalming fluid..

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/marijuana-rehab/what-can-marijuana-be-laced-with

https://keytransitions.com/is-marijuana-laced-with-other-drugs/

Edited September 2, 2022 by ExFlyer

[TreeBeard]

5 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Lacing marijuana with other drugs is an old way for traffickers getting people hooked on other things.

I find arguments like this to support the idea of government supply of illicit drugs, not as a counter to it.  Let’s ensure the lacing by drug dealers can’t happen. 

[ExFlyer]

39 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

I find arguments like this to support the idea of government supply of illicit drugs, not as a counter to it.  Let’s ensure the lacing by drug dealers can’t happen. 

Man, that is a stretch.

Just proving that you were unaware about lacing marijuana.

Providing evidence of a comment that you deny makes you think that???

 

OK, we will tell the drug dealers not to do that. LOL

[herbie]

Well sorry bud but that 'lacing' shit is just that. WE did that ourselves way back in the 1970s, not the dealers, to get a kick not to get addicted. None of my friends did. What THEY did do is try to sell off weed the US gov;t sprayed with paraquot weed killer, which is why little out of country weed was popular and BC bud happened. No one needs to 'lace' the shit they sell now, it's so strong I don't use it. More like getting the flu than getting high these days.

100% of the reason I support gov't sales and controls. Just like you aren't gonna get wood alcohol in the vodka you get from the Liquor store. And why you won't get fentanyl if you buy heroin at a pharmacy.

The goal is to prevent overdose deaths and move addiction to a medical problem, not a criminal problem. Which is why you won't get arrested for personal amounts here anymore. Tying up the legal system with petty bullshit, same as the pre-legalisation of weed used to.

So drop the Nancy Reagan/1960s your pot is laced with LSD bullshit arguments. There's not gonna be heroin stores, it will be just like other prescription medicines, doctors decide.