First a trickle....Now a flood

[User]

Just now, Goddess said:

You asked for a court case.

I did not ask for any court case; I asked you to back up your claim that there was one that used your logic to win. Let's see it. 

 

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, User said:

I have corrected you twice before now.

Yes.  You keep insisting that after mass vaccination, deaths ARE SUPPOSED TO GO UP.

I'm saying they are SUPPOSED TO GO DOWN.

[User]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Yes.  You keep insisting that after mass vaccination, deaths ARE SUPPOSED TO GO UP.

I'm saying they are SUPPOSED TO GO DOWN.

No, I do not, I have said no such thing. 

Show me the quote of where I said that. You can't. You keep making it up. 

What I said was:

Depends on how deadly and harmful the disease is, how contagious, how many are infected... 

My argument is that it is illogical for you to claim that just because people are vaccinated, overall deaths should go down to the same rates as before the Pandemic. COVID was a very contagious and deadly disease and vaccination did not happen overnight, it took a campaign to achieve high levels and STILL the unvaccinated continued to die and the vaccine was not a magic shield, it reduced risk of death and serious illness, it did not stop it. 

So why would deaths be presumed to go down to pre-pandemic levels when unvaccinated were still getting sick and dying as well as fewer people who got vaccinated? 

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, User said:

I did not ask for any court case; I asked you to back up your claim that there was one that used your logic to win. Let's see it. 

 

No.  Your claim is that deaths are SUPPOSED TO GO UP.

You prove it.

Use lots of medical studies that show deaths going UP after mass vaccinating for a disease.

Explain the mechanisms for how that happens.  Show the experiments, show the trials.  Show the data.  Show the stats.

 

[User]

Just now, Goddess said:

No.  Your claim is that deaths are SUPPOSED TO GO UP.

You prove it.

Use lots of medical studies that show deaths going UP after mass vaccinating for a disease.

Explain the mechanisms for how that happens.  Show the experiments, show the trials.  Show the data.  Show the stats.

 

No, I said:

Depends on how deadly and harmful the disease is, how contagious, how many are infected... 

My argument is that it is illogical for you to claim that just because people are vaccinated, overall deaths should go down to the same rates as before the Pandemic. COVID was a very contagious and deadly disease and vaccination did not happen overnight, it took a campaign to achieve high levels and STILL the unvaccinated continued to die and the vaccine was not a magic shield, it reduced risk of death and serious illness, it did not stop it. 

So why would deaths be presumed to go down to pre-pandemic levels when unvaccinated were still getting sick and dying as well as fewer people who got vaccinated? 

[Goddess]

Just now, User said:

What I said was:

Depends on how deadly and harmful the disease is, how contagious, how many are infected... 

Yes, you qualified your first statement by now claiming that "sometimes", depending on those factors, we should expect deaths to go UP after mass vaccinating.

Show it.

Show your work.

1 minute ago, User said:

just because people are vaccinated, overall deaths should go down to the same rates as before the Pandemic.

I showed the reasons why we should expect them to go DOWN.

Now you show why they should go UP.

[User]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, you qualified your first statement by now claiming that "sometimes", depending on those factors, we should expect deaths to go UP after mass vaccinating.

Show it.

Show your work.

Show my work on what? It is not a math problem. It was a logical statement based on the facts. 

I am glad you are finally relenting from your repeated made-up crap that I never said. 

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I showed the reasons why we should expect them to go DOWN.

Now you show why they should go UP.

I did:

Depends on how deadly and harmful the disease is, how contagious, how many are infected... 

My argument is that it is illogical for you to claim that just because people are vaccinated, overall deaths should go down to the same rates as before the Pandemic. COVID was a very contagious and deadly disease and vaccination did not happen overnight, it took a campaign to achieve high levels and STILL the unvaccinated continued to die and the vaccine was not a magic shield, it reduced risk of death and serious illness, it did not stop it. 

So why would deaths be presumed to go down to pre-pandemic levels when unvaccinated were still getting sick and dying as well as fewer people who got vaccinated? 

I also responded to your reasons:

 

[Goddess]

Deaths went UP.

In spite of mass vaccination, natural immunity and the death of the vulnerable early on.

There will only be a very small number of unvaccinated left.  And the majority of them survived covid and have natural immunity.  Nearly everyone has had it.

You are saying that years later, that small number of people are the reason why deaths are going UP every year - in spite of mass vaxxing, natural immunity AND early deaths in the vulnerable population AND a virus that is far less deadly.

Put up or shut up, baby.  Let's see your work.

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, User said:

I did:

Depends on how deadly and harmful the disease is, how contagious, how many are infected... 

That's it?

That's your whole argument?

No studies that show this happening - the effect of how deadly a disease is, how many infected?

No studies that show the mechanisms of why it would happen?

No data?  No stats?

That's it?  

Just a statement.

Huh.

 

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, User said:

It was a logical statement based on the facts. 

Where did you get these "facts" from?  You made a statement that flies in the face of epidemiology, vaccinology and immunology.

And you think that's sufficient?  🤣

[User]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Deaths went UP.

In spite of mass vaccination, natural immunity and the death of the vulnerable early on.

There will only be a very small number of unvaccinated left.  And the majority of them survived covid and have natural immunity.  Nearly everyone has had it.

You are saying that years later, that small number of people are the reason why deaths are going UP every year - in spite of mass vaxxing, natural immunity AND early deaths in the vulnerable population AND a virus that is far less deadly.

Put up or shut up, baby.  Let's see your work.

Yes, deaths went up. 

The unvaccinated continued to die. The pandemic and COVID continued as the virus mutated. Mass vaccination was not achieved overnight; it took time. 

Covid deaths went up and down with waves of the virus, but they did not increase year over year, deaths did start to decline. In Canada they were down in 2023 and in the US they were down in 2022. 

I am saying nothing about "years" later until now, just above, that shows deaths were gown down by 2023. 

I have shown just as much "work" here as you have. 

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

That's it?

That's your whole argument?

No studies that show this happening - the effect of how deadly a disease is, how many infected?

No studies that show the mechanisms of why it would happen?

No data?  No stats?

That's it?  

Just a statement.

Huh.

 

No, you keep ignoring the whole argument, notice how you put the ... there. 

Yes, this is a battle of logic. You offered nothing more than an illogical statement and I countered it. 

 

[User]

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Where did you get these "facts" from?  You made a statement that flies in the face of epidemiology, vaccinology and immunology.

And you think that's sufficient?  🤣

I made a statement based on the facts. You saying it goes against epidemiology, vaccinology and immunology doesn't make it so. 

I have provided just as much, if not more, than you have in this discussion so far. 

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, User said:

in the US they were down in 2022. 

Excess deaths in the US continue to rise year after year.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, User said:

I made a statement based on the facts

You say it's a fact that a very tiny # of unvaccinated people, who also never got covid so have no natural immunity, are causing millions of excess deaths every year.

Show the data.

What percentage of deaths from covid now are the unvaccinated compared to the vaccinated.

You say it's a fact.  Show me.

[User]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Excess deaths in the US continue to rise year after year.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

COVID-19 Mortality Update — United States, 2022

COVID-19 was associated with approximately 244,000 deaths in the United States during January–December 2022.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7218a4.htm

 

The age-adjusted COVID-19 death rate declined 47% compared with 2021. As in 2020 and 2021, most COVID-19 deaths occurred in a hospital inpatient setting, but an increasing percentage occurred in the decedent’s home or a nursing home or long-term care facility.

[User]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

You say it's a fact that a very tiny # of unvaccinated people, who also never got covid so have no natural immunity, are causing millions of excess deaths every year.

Show the data.

What percentage of deaths from covid now are the unvaccinated compared to the vaccinated.

You say it's a fact.  Show me.

Now you are playing the dumb percentage vs total game that I repeatedly had to call out West for. 

How many total deaths in Canada were there each year? 

And how does that compare to that "tiny %" of unvaccinated people?

Only 20,000 died in 2022 in Canada. There were still millions unvaccinated. 

So yeah, they can still account for that many deaths. 

 

[Goddess]

10 minutes ago, User said:

You offered nothing more than an illogical statement

What is illogical about my statement?

Mass vaccination.

Most now have either natural immunity or vaccine induced immunity.

The virus is less deadly.

The majority of vulnerable have died off.

 

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, User said:

COVID-19 Mortality Update — United States, 2022

COVID-19 was associated with approximately 244,000 deaths in the United States during January–December 2022.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7218a4.htm

 

The age-adjusted COVID-19 death rate declined 47% compared with 2021. As in 2020 and 2021, most COVID-19 deaths occurred in a hospital inpatient setting, but an increasing percentage occurred in the decedent’s home or a nursing home or long-term care facility.

OK, either you don't know what you're talking about or you didn't read my post.

We're talking over-all deaths in order to reduce confounders.

This stat, is not that.

Plus, your argument is that we should not expect deaths to go DOWN.  We should expect them to go UP.  But only sometimes.

[User]

11 minutes ago, Goddess said:

What is illogical about my statement?

I already pointed this out several times now, you keep ignoring it. 

Depends on how deadly and harmful the disease is, how contagious, how many are infected... 

My argument is that it is illogical for you to claim that just because people are vaccinated, overall deaths should go down to the same rates as before the Pandemic. COVID was a very contagious and deadly disease and vaccination did not happen overnight, it took a campaign to achieve high levels and STILL the unvaccinated continued to die and the vaccine was not a magic shield, it reduced risk of death and serious illness, it did not stop it. 

So why would deaths be presumed to go down to pre-pandemic levels when unvaccinated were still getting sick and dying as well as fewer people who got vaccinated? 

11 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Mass vaccination.

Yes, and millions were still unvaccinated. A large chunk. That mass vaccination did not happen overnight either. 

12 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Most now have either natural immunity or vaccine induced immunity.

Now? Yes... and now COVID is hardly a concern at all anymore. 

13 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The virus is less deadly.

The majority of vulnerable have died off.

They had not in 2021 - 2023. 

They still have not. 

 

11 minutes ago, Goddess said:

OK, either you don't know what you're talking about or you didn't read my post.

We're talking over-all deaths in order to reduce confounders.

This stat, is not that.

Plus, your argument is that we should not expect deaths to go DOWN.  We should expect them to go UP.  But only sometimes.

Again, you keep making up crap I did not say. I never said anything about "we should not expect deaths to go down" or that "we should expect them to go up"

I merely explained why they went up and how it is not logical to simply presume they would go down, or should have, as you argued. 

 

[Goddess]

7 minutes ago, User said:

I already pointed this out several times now, you keep ignoring it. 

Depends on how deadly and harmful the disease is, how contagious, how many are infected... 

I'm not ignoring it.  I've asked you repeatedly to show HOW your confounders above (how deadly, how many infected) impact excess deaths and WHY those confounders override mine (mass vaxxing, natural immunity achievement, dry tinder dying off).

Why are my confounders completely Illogical and yours are logical?

Because you say so?  I'm just supposed to accept that?

Who are you?  A secret epidemiological expert?  A closet immunologist?

Seriously, you need to inform the CDC at once.  They are losing cases to Mr. Siri at an astonishing rate.

[Goddess]

19 minutes ago, User said:

I merely explained why they went up and how it is not logical to simply presume they would go down, or should have, as you argued. 

Ya, I get it.

A tiny number of unvaccinated who  likely have natural immunity are causing millions of deaths and the millions of excess deaths are all in the unvaccinated.

This is logical to you?

But mass vaxxing, most people having natural or vaccine-induced immunity by now and the early die off of the dry tinder......that's all ILLOGICAL to you?  Makes no sense to you?   At all?  Totally illogical to you.

Hmmmm.

Very odd beliefs you have.

Because all of those confounders are considered in determining excess deaths by expert vaccinologist, epidemiologists, immunologist and biologists.

But you're saying they are all ILLOGICAL factors that mean nothing.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm gonna go with the experts on this one.  No offense.

 

Edited March 18 by Goddess

[User]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

I'm not ignoring it.  I've asked you repeatedly to show HOW your confounders above (how deadly, how many infected) impact excess deaths and WHY those confounders override mine (mass vaxxing, natural immunity achievement, dry tinder dying off).

Why are my confounders completely Illogical and yours are logical?

Because you say so?  I'm just supposed to accept that?

Who are you?  A secret epidemiological expert?  A closet immunologist?

Seriously, you need to inform the CDC at once.  They are losing cases to Mr. Siri at an astonishing rate.

Yes, you are ignoring it. I responded to your points and they have just as much weight in my saying so as yours did with you just saying so. 

You can't actually engage on the facts, so instead you want to play another logical fallacy game of trying to impugn my authority. Facts are facts, logic is logic, good argument is good argument. I don't have to be anyone special. Besides, you have already shown here you completely disregard what experts say anyhow. 

Here you go, again:

 

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, User said:

you completely disregard what experts say anyhow. 

Nope, seems to me it's you that disregards the experts.

All of the confounding factors I mentioned are used by experts to explain why deaths should go DOWN.

You are saying they are illogical factors.

And that your confounding factors explain why we should expect deaths to go UP.

I'm saying flat out - you are wrong.

6 minutes ago, User said:

they have just as much weight in my saying so

No.  Not all arguments carry the same weight.

[Goddess]

I'm going to end this now, since you reject all the confounders accepted by science and believe that excess deaths are now all caused by the unvaccinated and that it's mainly unvaccinated dying, although you cannot produce any evidence that this is so.  You believe deaths in a particular disease can and should go UP after mass vaccinating and that this is normal.  No reason.  Just your belief.

Anyone reading this can judge for themselves, I think we've both presented our case.

[User]

Just now, Goddess said:

Ya, I get it.

A tiny number of unvaccinated who  likely have natural immunity are causing millions of deaths and the millions of excess deaths are all in the unvaccinated.

This is logical to you?

Once again, you keep hiding behind this "tiny number of unvaccinated" when that number was roughly 10-20% of the entire population which amounts to MILLIONS of people. 

We are talking about 20,000 dead, the worst year in Canada. 

There were no millions of deaths or millions of excess deaths in Canada. 

It is perfectly reasonable to say that MILLIONS of unvaccinated would still continue to die to the tune of 20,000 dead. 

Just now, Goddess said:

I'm going to end this now, since you reject all the confounders accepted by science and believe that excess deaths are now all caused by the unvaccinated and that it's mainly unvaccinated dying, although you cannot produce any evidence that this is so.  You believe deaths in a particular disease can and should go UP after mass vaccinating and that this is normal.  No reason.  Just your belief.

Anyone reading this can judge for themselves, I think we've both presented our case.

It is a simple fact that the unvaccinated were a majority of the COVID deaths. 

The highest proportions of hospitalized cases and deaths were reported among those who were unvaccinated, followed by those who completed a primary series.

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/reports-publications/canada-communicable-disease-report-ccdr/monthly-issue/2024-50/issue-1-2-january-february-2024/covid-19-outcome-trends-vaccination-status-canada.html