Globalism - Is it a threat or a benefit to Western Civilization?

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. Did you purposely leave out the following sentence from my quote?

2. Open season?

3. The FTA was not "open season".

4. If you believe that, then I'm sure glad you don't have the power to declare "open season".

5. Impractical? How?

6. Services? We make very little here now. We have created an economy without any realistic base. A house of cards.

7. There was originally a mask shortage, then a vaccine shortage and now a microchip shortage and of course...the self inflicted oil shortage.

8. I disagree. Building back up our manufacturing would make us less dependant of other nations and greatly improve our economy.

I'd rather my tax monies go to building new manufacturing plants, than to these self-destructive green taxes.

1. No
2. Yes, in that you have minimal paperwork to import or contract out to that country.  You said "I believe there are already laws in place to govern this."  and you are right, but depending on the country.
3. It mostly was.  There were exceptions with "media" which have since been lifted with post-FTA trade negotiations such as NAFTA.
4. Well, you shouldn't be 'glad' at all because our elected leaders (Mulroney, Chretien, Martin, Harper, Trudeau) all believe it to a man.
5. Trump for example used an instinctive approach to economic policy and famously pushed for manufacturing and coal jobs, but the political value of such things outweighs the economic value.  There are accounts of Trump refusing to listen to the arguments that manufacturing jobs were too expensive and not competitive and that more people work at Arby's Restaurants than in coal.
6. Not manufacturing but services - domestic and for export.  Like consulting, IT, or domestically - home services, medical services etc.  Our base for export is resources, which is very realistic.  
7. Yes, and it remains to be seen how having tariffs in place would have made these situations better.  If we had a domestic mask industry would they have been able to ramp up ?  Would it be worth us paying more for all these things at 'normal' times ?
8. You want 'tax money' to fund the building of domestic industry ?  Well you are back into an Albanian model of sorts, which is actually fine but you are talking about a far-left model here.

[eyeball]

On 3/17/2022 at 1:25 PM, Michael Hardner said:

1.  Well ... a primary concern that you have expressed here is 'loss of jobs'.  

Why is this a primary concern though? I don't think you have to dig very deep to see that the real concern is loss of nationalism in place of the national geopolitical policy in which the entire world is regarded as the appropriate sphere for a state's influence. To wit...a one world government...Star Trek... that's been defined in the original post.

Unless I'm mistaken globalization is mostly economic and capitalistic in nature and globalism isn't. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

35 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Unless I'm mistaken globalization is mostly economic and capitalistic in nature and globalism isn't. 

Another thing that I've realized is the WEF that we're all whinging about, is the natural outcome of outsourcing and privatization which came from... Guess where?

 

They are lobbying for those government dollars.

[Nationalist]

16 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No
2. Yes, in that you have minimal paperwork to import or contract out to that country.  You said "I believe there are already laws in place to govern this."  and you are right, but depending on the country.
3. It mostly was.  There were exceptions with "media" which have since been lifted with post-FTA trade negotiations such as NAFTA.
4. Well, you shouldn't be 'glad' at all because our elected leaders (Mulroney, Chretien, Martin, Harper, Trudeau) all believe it to a man.
5. Trump for example used an instinctive approach to economic policy and famously pushed for manufacturing and coal jobs, but the political value of such things outweighs the economic value.  There are accounts of Trump refusing to listen to the arguments that manufacturing jobs were too expensive and not competitive and that more people work at Arby's Restaurants than in coal.
6. Not manufacturing but services - domestic and for export.  Like consulting, IT, or domestically - home services, medical services etc.  Our base for export is resources, which is very realistic.  
7. Yes, and it remains to be seen how having tariffs in place would have made these situations better.  If we had a domestic mask industry would they have been able to ramp up ?  Would it be worth us paying more for all these things at 'normal' times ?
8. You want 'tax money' to fund the building of domestic industry ?  Well you are back into an Albanian model of sorts, which is actually fine but you are talking about a far-left model here.

1. Fine I'll repost it for you.

Quote

Automation will and is making many jobs redundant. So what? We should help the process along with self-inflicted wounds?

2. Yes. Again...I'm not against trade. I'm against UNFAIR trade. We have ~50 BILLION dollar trade deficit with China. Frankly...I would rather not trade with China at all.

3. It was not a good decision for the Canadian labour markets.

4. All our elected leaders are bought and paid for.

5, 6, 7, 8. Selling out the Canadian labour markets is in no way a good thing.!

[Michael Hardner]

20 hours ago, Nationalist said:

1. "Automation will and is making many jobs redundant. So what? We should help the process along with self-inflicted wounds?"

2. Yes. Again...I'm not against trade. I'm against UNFAIR trade. We have ~50 BILLION dollar trade deficit with China. Frankly...I would rather not trade with China at all.

3. It was not a good decision for the Canadian labour markets.

4. All our elected leaders are bought and paid for.

5, 6, 7, 8. Selling out the Canadian labour markets is in no way a good thing.!

1. "Jobs" alone are not an economic goal, otherwise the government would just hire every unemployed person.  Manufacturing jobs are going away, so to invest in that is a poor use of resources.  You are chasing automation, and engaging in the equivalent of paying people to hoe the fields instead of using trators.
2. 'Unfair" is subjective. Have a look at what happened to the US deficit during their ill-fated trade war.  It just went elsewhere, it didn't make them more competitive.  Consumers aren't going to pay significantly more for goods, just because they want to help the economy.
3. And yet unemployment is much lower than in the 1970s 

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/71-222-x/2008001/sectiona/a-unemployment-chomage-eng.htm

Manufacturing jobs are down but we have many more jobs in healthcare, IT, home services than we did then.
4. Not really.  You are aware of Canada's campaign contribution limits ?
5. 6. 7. 8. We are still discussing this "sell out".  There is no country that can survive without imports and exports.

[Nationalist]

19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. "Jobs" alone are not an economic goal, otherwise the government would just hire every unemployed person.  Manufacturing jobs are going away, so to invest in that is a poor use of resources.  You are chasing automation, and engaging in the equivalent of paying people to hoe the fields instead of using trators.
2. 'Unfair" is subjective. Have a look at what happened to the US deficit during their ill-fated trade war.  It just went elsewhere, it didn't make them more competitive.  Consumers aren't going to pay significantly more for goods, just because they want to help the economy.
3. And yet unemployment is much lower than in the 1970s 

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/71-222-x/2008001/sectiona/a-unemployment-chomage-eng.htm

Manufacturing jobs are down but we have many more jobs in healthcare, IT, home services than we did then.
4. Not really.  You are aware of Canada's campaign contribution limits ?
5. 6. 7. 8. We are still discussing this "sell out".  There is no country that can survive without imports and exports.

I know you will argue till hell freezes over, that Globalism is a "good" economic track to take. But you are wrong. We have created such a mess that now people consider adults working in fast food joints and food delivery drivers, to be "good jobs".

It is most certainly one of the primary concerns of any government, to create an environment where jobs are plentiful and gainful. Flipping burgers at McDonald's is not gainful employment. Its a summer job for high school students. Such crap demeans people and pushes them towards crime.

I have never said we should not have imports and exports. But nice try.

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. I know you will argue till hell freezes over, that Globalism is a "good" economic track to take.

2. But you are wrong. We have created such a mess that now people consider adults working in fast food joints and food delivery drivers, to be "good jobs".

3. It is most certainly one of the primary concerns of any government, to create an environment where jobs are plentiful and gainful. Flipping burgers at McDonald's is not gainful employment. Its a summer job for high school students. Such crap demeans people and pushes them towards crime.

4. I have never said we should not have imports and exports. But nice try.

1.  I actually don't think I said that.  There are always trade-offs with economics and even Cuba can claim that their isolationism and pastoral existence is better than the imagined alternative.  But I get why you say this as I am really just throwing stones at some suggestions.  You have, of course, very good points to make.  They're even better if I read between the lines, which I have tried to do - positively.

2. Yes, people with no post-secondary education and few skills have MUCH worse options for "good jobs".  There is no doubt there.  You no longer can walk out of high school and get a job in manufacturing to buy a house and succeed economically.  The imagined universe where we don't trade with China and those jobs come back doesn't really exist in reality though.

3.  I'm not sure what % of jobs is in that area.  I couldn't find a source to substantiate this.  "Flipping Burgers" is a job though, and looking down on it isn't something that a person advocating for so-called unskilled labour usually does.  There are plenty of Fast Food unions starting up now.

4. I know.  But tariffs is just baby steps down that road is my point.

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  I actually don't think I said that.  There are always trade-offs with economics and even Cuba can claim that their isolationism and pastoral existence is better than the imagined alternative.  But I get why you say this as I am really just throwing stones at some suggestions.  You have, of course, very good points to make.  They're even better if I read between the lines, which I have tried to do - positively.

2. Yes, people with no post-secondary education and few skills have MUCH worse options for "good jobs".  There is no doubt there.  You no longer can walk out of high school and get a job in manufacturing to buy a house and succeed economically.  The imagined universe where we don't trade with China and those jobs come back doesn't really exist in reality though.

3.  I'm not sure what % of jobs is in that area.  I couldn't find a source to substantiate this.  "Flipping Burgers" is a job though, and looking down on it isn't something that a person advocating for so-called unskilled labour usually does.  There are plenty of Fast Food unions starting up now.

4. I know.  But tariffs is just baby steps down that road is my point.

1. I appreciate that. But we're not talking of "isolationism". We're talking about international trade that does not destroy the jobs of our own citizenry. International commerce that does not destroy entire industries. Case in point, Apple. Many years ago...about 20 I would say...Apple moved its line production to China. This made the manufacturing jobs in the US redundant and they were cut. Hundreds, if not thousands of employees...cut loose. Future manufacturing jobs eliminated. It also made the cost of manufacturing many times cheaper and provided Apple with a huge increase in profit margin. Yet Apple didn't lower the price of their products. Instead, they've steadily increased consumer costs and have been literally raking in profits. This is an American corporation, screwing Americans...and everyone else except...the Chinese. It is a natural progression of raw Capitalism. Yet raw Capitalism is not an ideal state for any economy. Just as in politics, there must be equal and opposite forces at play, in order to properly harness Capitalism for the benefit of the populace. The visa versa scenario also being equally true.

2. Agreed. Without a college education, it is harder to get to many higher paying careers. However, today a plumber makes a very good wage. Electricians and carpenters as well. Cops and Firemen don't need a degree. Along with selling out our manufacturing industry, we also made it easy for foreign interests to purchase our own land. This has driven housing and land prices to dizzying heights. My own daughter complains that she simply can't afford to buy a house. Its not that she can't raise the down payment, but that she could never afford the insane size of the mortgage. "Reality" is what we make it. If we make a "reality" where Canadian citizens and their well-being are considered ABOVE those of other nations, and in said "reality" Canada decides to re-make the manufacturing industry, that "reality" would exist.

3. Fast food, along with a surprising number of other industries, have opted for near all part-time employment. No benefits. This is also Capitalism unregulated and should not be tolerated.

4. Baby steps in the right direction for a change.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Nationalist

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

1. I appreciate that. But we're not talking of "isolationism". We're talking about international trade that does not destroy the jobs of our own citizenry.  

2. Agreed. Without a college education, it is harder to get to many higher paying careers. However, today a plumber makes a very good wage. Electricians and carpenters as well.

3. Cops and Firemen don't need a degree.

4. Along with selling out our manufacturing industry, we also made it easy for foreign interests to purchase our own land.

5. This has driven housing and land prices to dizzying heights.

6. If we make a "reality" where Canadian citizens and their well-being are considered ABOVE those of other nations, and in said "reality" Canada decides to re-make the manufacturing industry, that "reality" would exist.

7. This is also Capitalism unregulated and should not be tolerated.

 

 

1. Looking at the big picture is what's necessary here.  You can't assume manufacturing jobs can come back without impacting the rest of the economy - that is what I have been telling you.

2. Entrepreneurs and especially home services are doing well, but that could be linked to an overall economy that is booming due to trade.  

3. True - civil service is still a good option for good $.

4. Making lots of $ for hardware stores, real estate agents, plumbers and electricians.

5.  Maybe - maybe not.  Real estate really only went crazy a little while ago and many countries are seeing this issue.

6. Canadian upper middle and especially wealthy are doing fine so relax.

7. Wait... what ?  Capitalism ?!?


 

[Nationalist]

15 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Looking at the big picture is what's necessary here.  You can't assume manufacturing jobs can come back without impacting the rest of the economy - that is what I have been telling you.

2. Entrepreneurs and especially home services are doing well, but that could be linked to an overall economy that is booming due to trade.  

3. True - civil service is still a good option for good $.

4. Making lots of $ for hardware stores, real estate agents, plumbers and electricians.

5.  Maybe - maybe not.  Real estate really only went crazy a little while ago and many countries are seeing this issue.

6. Canadian upper middle and especially wealthy are doing fine so relax.

7. Wait... what ?  Capitalism ?!?


 

1. Big picture? In the big picture, were Canada to practice "fair trade" and unleash its wealth in natural resources...including all fossil fuels...we be doing wonderfully.

2. The economy is not booming and especially not because of trade. Have you gone shopping lately? Bought gas or paid a heating bill lately?

3. Yes it is.

4. Mike...a middle class family can no longer purchase a home.

5. Yes. Many countries are seeing this. Gee...why do you think that might be?

6. Huh...relax eh? I have enough so, I shouldn't be concerned about the vast majority of Canadians? Interesting.

7. Yes Capitalism. It...like Communism, require monitoring and regulation. What part of that don't you understand?

[Michael Hardner]

57 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. Big picture? In the big picture, were Canada to practice "fair trade" and unleash its wealth in natural resources...including all fossil fuels...we be doing wonderfully.

2. The economy is not booming and especially not because of trade. Have you gone shopping lately? Bought gas or paid a heating bill lately?

3. Mike...a middle class family can no longer purchase a home.

4. Yes. Many countries are seeing this. Gee...why do you think that might be?

5. Huh...relax eh? I have enough so, I shouldn't be concerned about the vast majority of Canadians? Interesting.

6. Yes Capitalism. It...like Communism, require monitoring and regulation. What part of that don't you understand?

1. "Resources" including minerals, coal etc.  Those are doing well including fossil fuel in the long term.  Also services export:

https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-commerce/assets/images/publications/economist-economiste/sot-ci/special-2018/ 

 2.   Yes inflation and fuel prices are punishingly high right now - but you're comparing a recent trend with a multi-decade one.  Trade has been slowing changing since 1989 and the fuel and inflation spikes are over the last few years.

3.   I agree - but as I already said economics is about trade-offs.  Take any terrible economic idea, like central planning for example, and you can find one good thing in it as well.   Foreign investment is generally a good thing thing for example, even if money-laundering and Air B&B are making life difficult.  

4.  Global wealth is fuelling real estate speculation from the moneyed classes.  Also, there are cCommon challenges: Covid, the war triggering fuel speculation.  Those are some causes

5. You missed the wink.  I was being darkly cynical and ironic.

6. I get it.

[Nationalist]

22 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. "Resources" including minerals, coal etc.  Those are doing well including fossil fuel in the long term.  Also services export:

https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-commerce/assets/images/publications/economist-economiste/sot-ci/special-2018/ 

 2.   Yes inflation and fuel prices are punishingly high right now - but you're comparing a recent trend with a multi-decade one.  Trade has been slowing changing since 1989 and the fuel and inflation spikes are over the last few years.

3.   I agree - but as I already said economics is about trade-offs.  Take any terrible economic idea, like central planning for example, and you can find one good thing in it as well.   Foreign investment is generally a good thing thing for example, even if money-laundering and Air B&B are making life difficult.  

4.  Global wealth is fuelling real estate speculation from the moneyed classes.  Also, there are cCommon challenges: Covid, the war triggering fuel speculation.  Those are some causes

5. You missed the wink.  I was being darkly cynical and ironic.

6. I get it.

1. Nice graph. Does it take into consideration what things would look like should all this Greenie crapola were to be dispensed with?

2. We live today. Today we're punishing the fossil fuel industry and stunting our potential. That would be a "bad" thing.

3. I have no issues with foreign investment as long as Canadians are employed to work instead of Indians or Chinese.

4. The Rona. The "pandemic" that wasn't. The skirt Libbies love to hide behind. "IT WAS COVID! WE ALL GONNA DIIIEEE!!!" Its over friend. The facts are out. None of this horseshit should ever have happened since the actual numbers never justified it. As for that damnable war in Ukraine...self-made by stupid people who...all of the sudden think Ukraine is a place worth defending. Where were they a year ago? If Ukraine was/is too corrupt to be part of NATO, then why make such a big deal out of Russian invasions into a corrupt nation that's only really existed for 20 years? There's real live unbridled genocide going on right this minute in nations MUCH older and more established than is Ukraine. Where's the air cover for them? Its like watching a Shakespearean tragic comedy.

5. OK my bad.

6. Good.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Nationalist

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

1. Nice graph. Does it take into consideration what things would look like should all this Greenie crapola were to be dispensed with?

2. We live today. Today we're punishing the fossil fuel industry and stunting our potential. That would be a "bad" thing.

3. I have no issues with foreign investment as long as Canadians are employed to work instead of Indians or Chinese.

4. The Rona. The "pandemic" that wasn't. The skirt Libbies love to hide behind. "IT WAS COVID! WE ALL GONNA DIIIEEE!!!" Its over friend. The facts are out. None of this horseshit should ever have happened since the actual numbers never justified it. As for that damnable war in Ukraine...self-made by stupid people who...all of the sudden think Ukraine is a place worth defending. Where were they a year ago? If Ukraine was/is too corrupt to be part of NATO, then why make such a big deal out of Russian invasions into a corrupt nation that's only really existed for 20 years? There's real live unbridled genocide going on right this minute in nations MUCH older and more established than is Ukraine. Where's the air cover for them? It like watching a Shakespearean tragic comedy.

1. No, but are you asserting that services are somehow boosted (or dampered) by Green energy initiatives ?
2. I posted a criticism of your point, and you are pivoting to something about the fossil fuel industry.  We can talk about that but are you planning to just make points forever, even as I point out flaws in them ?  This conversation won't be anything other than a square dance if so.
3. Ok.
4. Another example of you pivoting.  Whether or not the virus was as much of a risk as you say, it had definite and measurable financial impacts.   To talk about whether the lockdown, as executed by almost every G7 government, was justified is a separate conversation.  And whether the war is justified... another separate conversation.

Maybe we can just acknowledge points and then start a new post with @ to ask each other opinions on new things.  If you say "You are wrong about X" then I should either acknowledge or continue to refute.  I shouldn't say well "Y".  That should be a new thread or at least post IMO.

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No, but are you asserting that services are somehow boosted (or dampered) by Green energy initiatives ?
2. I posted a criticism of your point, and you are pivoting to something about the fossil fuel industry.  We can talk about that but are you planning to just make points forever, even as I point out flaws in them ?  This conversation won't be anything other than a square dance if so.
3. Ok.
4. Another example of you pivoting.  Whether or not the virus was as much of a risk as you say, it had definite and measurable financial impacts.   To talk about whether the lockdown, as executed by almost every G7 government, was justified is a separate conversation.  And whether the war is justified... another separate conversation.

Maybe we can just acknowledge points and then start a new post with @ to ask each other opinions on new things.  If you say "You are wrong about X" then I should either acknowledge or continue to refute.  I shouldn't say well "Y".  That should be a new thread or at least post IMO.

1. Yes. Because they are. Everyone is. Look...you take all of the Canadian political parties, have them all sing the same song of doom and gloom for the oil and gas industries, impose taxes of fucking exhaust and usage, and a number of things happen;

- Investment in the oil and gas industries begins to fade.

- Oil and gas prices begin to rise.

- General inflation ensues.

- Shortages begin happening.

- Every single Canadian pays the price.

2. Climate Change activism is, IMO, a TOOL of the Globalists. A hammer to hit people with. Another method for scaring the populous into willingly taking actions that in fact are self-destructive. We're literally killing Mother Earth! Haven't you heard? We have to be willing to suffer for the greater good. In order to convince the populous to act in self-destructive ways, you need to make them believe the contradiction is excusable because...its in their own self interest to do so. For their good...and the "greater good". The Rona too...just another example of human conditioning using...FEAR. The outcome? Hundreds of millions of people who honestly believe that the entirety of civilization...especially in The Western Nations...is rotten to the core and must be destroyed and...what's the saying?...oh ya..."Build Back Better". And so far...its turning out magnificently right?

4. You brought The Rona and the war up...not me. But if you look closely...you see the connections. The common direction they are headed in and the methods they all use to get there.

I disagree with your last point. I think these issues are interwoven and should all be explored in the same conversation. For instance: When I build a large IT system, I get down and dirty with the minutia and map out all potential links the new system will have and the effects they'll have on each other and the entirety of the Enterprise. THAT is how one gets things right the first time.

But if I were to simply build the systems and get them working, I'd be back in a week explaining why, all of the sudden, other systems are failing.

This is a daunting subject to dive into so, if you'd rather leave it at this, I understand.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Nationalist

[Michael Hardner]

A good basic primer on trade

 

https://www.theschooloflife.com/article/free-trade-or-protectionism/

[West]

Globalism is good in the sense that you need reciprocal trade. We don't have it all here and have to rely on other nations to meet our demand. 

The issues are more related to tossing away national sovereignty.