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Is the world polluting the minds of young people with a false narrative of the origin and meaning of life?


blackbird

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36 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I debated whether to even answer you because you have a serious attitude problem. 

If you are referring to my objection to your silly beliefs, it could be called exposing facts but certainly not attitude. Yours is a normal reply when your argument is exhausted. 

Maybe you have serious personal problems; I don't know. 

Not at all. My problem is you suggest you have evidence of your  silly God and clearly you dont and never will. You need to stop lying. 

But God does care about you.  God (Jesus) is there for you if you ever change your mind. 

God doesn't know me so don't give me that rubbish.  

Will pray for you.  We must love our neighbours as God says.  Hate is not the answer.  God is merciful and can help you.

There is no God and you know it. You have never seen, heard, or interacted with it. Don't patronize me by suggesting you will pray for me as if your mumbo jumbo prayers have ever achieved anything. Pray for those starving kids in Africa who were unnecessarily born because religion refused their mothers contraception. 

Don't be so arrogant to condemn me to eternal fire for my recalcitrance. You don't have the power to do anything except be conned by the oldest trick known to man. You and your religion are complete frauds. Teaching that rubbish children should be outlawed as child abuse and you do that, you are a despicable human being. 

Every time you reply I get another  swing at you. Do you want to him in with this. 

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15 minutes ago, Colin Norris said:

There is no God and you know it. You have never seen, heard, or interacted with it. Don't patronize me by suggesting you will pray for me as if your mumbo jumbo prayers have ever achieved anything. Pray for those starving kids in Africa who were unnecessarily born because religion refused their mothers contraception. 

Don't be so arrogant to condemn me to eternal fire for my recalcitrance. You don't have the power to do anything except be conned by the oldest trick known to man. You and your religion are complete frauds. Teaching that rubbish children should be outlawed as child abuse and you do that, you are a despicable human being. 

Every time you reply I get another  swing at you. Do you want to him in with this. 

I won't bite.  Jesus is LOrd and the Bible is authentic.  Says nothing about mother's contraception in the Bible.  I am not Roman Catholic. 

I believe the Bible  You make a lot of assumptions.  But if you were honest you would look into it before condemning everything.  I never condemned you to anything.  I have hope for you and prefer civilized conversation without the name calling. 

Here is a site that gives a lot of information about the authenticity of the Bible.  

Compelling Evidence of the Authenticity of the Bible – peterpilt

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1 minute ago, blackbird said:

I won't bite.  Jesus is LOrd and the Bible is authentic.  Says nothing about mother's contraception in the Bible.  I am not Roman Catholic. 

I believe the Bible  You make a lot of assumptions.  But if you were honest you would look into it before condemning everything.  I never condemned you to anything.  I have hope for you and prefer civilized conversation without the name calling. 

Here is a site that gives a lot of information about the authenticity of the Bible.  

Compelling Evidence of the Authenticity of the Bible – peterpilt

You can call your silly Jesus what you like but he IS NOT the son of any ridiculous God. Thisevmealy mouthed words won't work on me. 

You make me laugh when you suggest I need to be honest. How about you doing the same. You quote some authentication as if it is law. What rubbish.  

The name calling is simply stating a fact. I'm sorry you have only that to focus on when so much more is at stake. 

I don't care what foolish gullible godbotherers think. I base my whole argument in evidence which you do not have and never will. The whole hypocritical nature of religion should be condemned. 

 

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40 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Here is a site that gives a lot of information about the authenticity of the Bible.  

The site indicates that Prophetic Accuracy is a reason, but its a prophecy within the bible. Do the academics of the site not understand the circular logic, the bible predicted the bible events. This is not impressive or evidence of authenticity.

If the bible predicted with specificity an event going to happen in the future, like first working silicon transistor was developed at Bell Labs on January 26, 1954, by Morris Tanenbaum, that would be a prophecy and impressive. 

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7 minutes ago, Winston said:

The site indicates that Prophetic Accuracy is a reason, but its a prophecy within the bible. Do the academics of the site not understand the circular logic, the bible predicted the bible events. This is not impressive or evidence of authenticity.

If the bible predicted with specificity an event going to happen in the future, like first working silicon transistor was developed at Bell Labs on January 26, 1954, by Morris Tanenbaum, that would be a prophecy and impressive. 

Many prophecies were written down by the Hebrew prophets who lived many centuries before Christ came into the world.  They were written down in the Hebrew Scriptures centuries before they were fulfilled.   Their fulfillment was recorded in the gospels which was written down after Christ lived on earth.  The Hebrew Scriptures became known as the Old Testament in the Bible we have today.  The books in the Bible were written by 40 different authors.  The authors in Old Testament times were not the same authors of the New Testament.  So these prophecies are evidence of the supernatural working of God.  

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3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Many prophecies were predicted many centuries before Christ came into the world and they were written down in the Hebrew Scriptures centuries before they were fulfilled.   The Hebrew Scriptures then became known as the Old Testament in the Bible we have today.  So these prophecies are evidence of the supernatural working of God.  

Can you give an example? Specific prophecies.

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1 minute ago, Winston said:

Can you give an example? Specific prophecies.

quote

Over 300 direct prophecies in question, like,

  • Is. 7:14 He would be born of a virgin Lk. 1:7 it happened!
  • Micah 5:2 born in Bethlehem Lk. 2:4 that happened!
  • Gen. 49:10 born of tribe of Judah Mt. 3:3 that happened!
  • Psalm 78:2 speak in parables Mt. 13:34 that happened!
  • Zech. 9:9 ride on colt of a donkey Mt. 21 that happened!
  • Is. 61 heal broken-hearted Lk. 4:18 that happened!
  • Is. 53:3 rejected by own Jn. 1:11 that happened!
  • Is. 53:7 stand silent before accusers Mk. 15:5 that happened!’
  • Ps. 22:18 cast lots for His robe Jn. 19:23 that happened!
  • Ps. 22 (hundreds of years before crucifixion ever invented or thought of) prophets said they would pierce His hands and feet, and it happened!
  • Ps. 22:1 “my God, why forsaken me?” Mt. 27:46 that happened!
    v. 5 tongue cleave to jaw Mt. 26:15 that happened!
  • Zech. 11:2 sold by enemies for 30 silver Mt. 26:15 that happened!
  • Is. 53:9 buried w/ rich Mt. 27 that happened!   Unquote
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Just now, blackbird said:

quote

Over 300 direct prophecies in question, like,

  • Is. 7:14 He would be born of a virgin Lk. 1:7 it happened!
  • Micah 5:2 born in Bethlehem Lk. 2:4 that happened!
  • Gen. 49:10 born of tribe of Judah Mt. 3:3 that happened!
  • Psalm 78:2 speak in parables Mt. 13:34 that happened!
  • Zech. 9:9 ride on colt of a donkey Mt. 21 that happened!
  • Is. 61 heal broken-hearted Lk. 4:18 that happened!
  • Is. 53:3 rejected by own Jn. 1:11 that happened!
  • Is. 53:7 stand silent before accusers Mk. 15:5 that happened!’
  • Ps. 22:18 cast lots for His robe Jn. 19:23 that happened!
  • Ps. 22 (hundreds of years before crucifixion ever invented or thought of) prophets said they would pierce His hands and feet, and it happened!
  • Ps. 22:1 “my God, why forsaken me?” Mt. 27:46 that happened!
    v. 5 tongue cleave to jaw Mt. 26:15 that happened!
  • Zech. 11:2 sold by enemies for 30 silver Mt. 26:15 that happened!
  • Is. 53:9 buried w/ rich Mt. 27 that happened!   Unquote

These are not specific prophecies, also they are biblically referenced. This is circular as I mentioned above, not evidence. 

Give me an example in the bible that is verified outside of the bible, a specific prophecy. 

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18 minutes ago, Winston said:

These are not specific prophecies, also they are biblically referenced. This is circular as I mentioned above, not evidence. 

Give me an example in the bible that is verified outside of the bible, a specific prophecy. 

" 12  And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. {If ye…: Heb. If it be good in your eyes} 13  And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. " Zechariah 11:12, 13 KJV

This was written by the prophet Zechariah centuries before Christ.

"15  And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. 16  And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him. "  Matthew 26:15, 16 KJV  

This fulfillment of this prophecy was written centuries later by the author of the gospel of Matthew.

Judas betrayed Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

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6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

" 12  And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. {If ye…: Heb. If it be good in your eyes} 13  And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. " Zechariah 11:12, 13 KJV

This was written by the prophet Zechariah centuries before Christ.

"15  And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. 16  And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him. "  Matthew 26:15, 16 KJV  

This fulfillment of this prophecy was written centuries later by the author of the gospel of Matthew.

Judas betrayed Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

You just used the bible to prove the bible, that is circular. 

Its like if i wrote a book saying, " Mike would buy a goat for 30 silver coins" then someone added to my book 30 years later " Mike did buy a goat for 30 silver coins". If someone read it and the assume it was prophesy they would be incorrect, it is not prophetic because it is from the same source and it is not exact.  

In order to prove the bible you would need something outside the bible. 

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2 hours ago, Winston said:

You just used the bible to prove the bible, that is circular. 

Its like if i wrote a book saying, " Mike would buy a goat for 30 silver coins" then someone added to my book 30 years later " Mike did buy a goat for 30 silver coins". If someone read it and the assume it was prophesy they would be incorrect, it is not prophetic because it is from the same source and it is not exact.  

In order to prove the bible you would need something outside the bible. 

No.  The Bible is made of 66 books written by 40 different authors over 1500 years.  So the prophecy I quoted from Zechariah was written by a prophet who lived centuries before Christ.  It was fulfilled during the life of Christ on earth as recorded in the gospel of Matthew in the New Testament.  Two different books;  one records the prophecy (Zechariah) and a different book maybe 400 years later or more record the fulfillment (Matthew).   So I'm not sure why you say it would need something outside the Bible.  That doesn't make sense.  These are not made up stories. 

The fact that a number of the apostles were martyred for what they believed is strong evidence that what they believed was true.  People do not die for a lie.  Some of them were tortured and died brutal deaths.  The four gospels record different things in some cases about Jesus and what happened.  There would be no point in them deliberately creating a false story.  So when Matthew records that Judas was paid 30 pieces of silver that makes sense.  The fact that Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus is also recorded in all four gospels although they may not all give the exact same details in the same way.

The prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 KJV  "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."  This is recorded as fulfilled in Matthew and Luke.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Religious folk who claim that there's evidence of the God are unknowingly breaking the covenant of faith.

 

If you were really religious, you would believe without proof.

I don't think so.   "1  <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2  Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3  There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. {where…: or, without these their voice is heard: Heb. without their voice heard} 4  Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, {line: or, rule, or, direction} 5  Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6  His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. "   Psalm 19:1-6 KJV  The Bible clearly says the creation declares God.  That is strong evidence.

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36 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 These are not made up stories. 

How are you so sure without external physical references? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

37 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The fact that a number of the apostles were martyred for what they believed is strong evidence that what they believed was true.  People do not die for a lie.  Some of them were tortured and died brutal deaths.

Absolutely it is strong evidence that what they believed was true to them, but no evidence that what they believed was actually true, moral or right. For example many Germans in 1940s believed in national socialism, they even were tortured and died brutal deaths for their beliefs. It does not make their beliefs true. Furthermore other religions believe in different Gods, are tortured and died brutal deaths under other religious ideologies, it still does not make them true. 

 

49 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 KJV  "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."  This is recorded as fulfilled in Matthew and Luke.

There are a few issues with this, explain how a virgin is impregnated biologically? Explain how they verified that this individual (Mary) was a virgin, after this whole event occurred?  Explain who this Immanuel person is, because as soon as you mention its Jesus the prophecy is highly inaccurate just based on the name alone.

For a prophecy to be given evidential weight specifics must be known and accurate, not assumed or presumed. Date, time, place, who, what, where and when. Very specific. 

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4 hours ago, blackbird said:

I won't bite.  Jesus is LOrd and the Bible is authentic.  Says nothing about mother's contraception in the Bible.  I am not Roman Catholic. 

I believe the Bible  You make a lot of assumptions.  But if you were honest you would look into it before condemning everything.  I never condemned you to anything.  I have hope for you and prefer civilized conversation without the name calling. 

Here is a site that gives a lot of information about the authenticity of the Bible.  

Compelling Evidence of the Authenticity of the Bible – peterpilt

You seem to have capitulated now.  You were full of gas a while ago. If you're certain there is a god to produce the evidence would be easy. I know you can't so I expect you will remain silent. 

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2 hours ago, Winston said:

How are you so sure without external physical references? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

Absolutely it is strong evidence that what they believed was true to them, but no evidence that what they believed was actually true, moral or right. For example many Germans in 1940s believed in national socialism, they even were tortured and died brutal deaths for their beliefs. It does not make their beliefs true. Furthermore other religions believe in different Gods, are tortured and died brutal deaths under other religious ideologies, it still does not make them true. 

 

There are a few issues with this, explain how a virgin is impregnated biologically? Explain how they verified that this individual (Mary) was a virgin, after this whole event occurred?  Explain who this Immanuel person is, because as soon as you mention its Jesus the prophecy is highly inaccurate just based on the name alone.

For a prophecy to be given evidential weight specifics must be known and accurate, not assumed or presumed. Date, time, place, who, what, where and when. Very specific. 

The virgin birth was a supernatural event just like the creation.  There is no biological explanation.  

Here is an article I found that might give some answers.  I haven't had the chance to read it yet as I've been busy today, but will have a look at it.

The Historical Reliability of the Gospels | Bible.org

Just finished reading it.

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4 hours ago, blackbird said:

The virgin birth was a supernatural event just like the creation.  There is no biological explanation.  

Since no biological explanation is possible, how does one verify a supernatural event occurred? What supernatural evidence is required?

4 hours ago, blackbird said:

Here is an article I found that might give some answers.  I haven't had the chance to read it yet as I've been busy today, but will have a look at it.

We can have a discussion but citing articles is just going to be a discussion by links, not worth anyone's time. If you want to point to a specific part in the article or summarize the article as supporting discussion point that would be appreciated. 

With regards to the article, a prophesy can not change over time, otherwise it would not be a prophesy. For example Jesus can not be Immanuel because it would be inaccurate and unreliable as a prophesy of Jesus. 

I do question the legitimacy of text especially when text can be altered with no mention over time by a dominant party. For example only those that win a war write history.

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9 hours ago, Winston said:

Since no biological explanation is possible, how does one verify a supernatural event occurred? What supernatural evidence is required?

We can have a discussion but citing articles is just going to be a discussion by links, not worth anyone's time. If you want to point to a specific part in the article or summarize the article as supporting discussion point that would be appreciated. 

With regards to the article, a prophesy can not change over time, otherwise it would not be a prophesy. For example Jesus can not be Immanuel because it would be inaccurate and unreliable as a prophesy of Jesus. 

I do question the legitimacy of text especially when text can be altered with no mention over time by a dominant party. For example only those that win a war write history.

1.  The Bible has many supernatural events.  We accept it on faith.  Again it gets back to believing in the supernatural which is what the Bible is all about.

2.  OK if you don't want links or more backup material, it really limits the conversation to very basic, bare comments.  I am not sure that is the best way to discuss something which has large amounts of explanations and backup information behind it.  Also, I am not an encyclopedia, not a professor, and not a trained scholar.  Yet you ask deep questions as if you expect scholars answers.

3.  I am not sure what you mean in saying Jesus cannot be Immanuel.  Immanuel simply means "God with us".  Since Jesus claimed to be the Son of God (or God, as part of the trinity of God), then Immanuel seems to be an appropriate title.  I am not sure what you are referring to with regard to prophecy changing.  My understanding that a prophecy is simply a statement about something in the future and then later it is fulfilled.

4.  The Old Testament came from the Hebrew Holy Scriptures.  The Hebrews scribes were reportedly extremely scrupulous in making copies of the Holy Scriptures and had to very carefully copy every jot and tittle and if they made a mistake, they had to redo the whole section.  There is no reason to think they altered the Scriptures.  As for the New Testament there are apparently over 5,000 ancient manuscripts or copies of manuscripts that support the Greek Received Text that was used to produce the King James Version.  So is is unlikely that anything of any significance was altered in the New Testament either.

5.  There are many prophecies in various books of the Old Testament such as in Isaiah, Zechariah, and the Psalms.

Example:

quote

4  Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. {wounded: or, tormented} {stripes: Heb. bruise} 6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. {laid…: Heb. made the iniquity of us all to meet on him} 7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. {from prison…: or, away by distress and judgment: but, etc} {was he…: Heb. was the stroke upon him} 9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. {death: Heb. deaths}  Unquote Isaiah 53:4-9 KJV

This prophecy tells how Christ suffered vicariously.

This was fulfilled about 700 years later and the accounts are given in the gospels.

 

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

1.  The Bible has many supernatural events.  We accept it on faith.  Again it gets back to believing in the supernatural which is what the Bible is all about

How is it verified? Ie what prevents someone from making a supernatural event up? You just accept on faith that it's real?

God told me that homosexuality is good and that the bible was altered to say it was bad. There is an example of a supernatural event.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

  Yet you ask deep questions as if you expect scholars answers.

I expect answers that are logical and obey the laws of the universe. I also expect non circular reasoning. The reason we are delving into the bible is because you have no scientific evidence of God. 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I am not sure what you mean in saying Jesus cannot be Immanuel.  Immanuel simply means "God with us".  Since Jesus claimed to be the Son of God (or God, as part of the trinity of God), then Immanuel seems to be an appropriate title.  I am not sure what you are referring to with regard to prophecy changing.  

It is either Jesus or Immanuel, but the prophecy can not claim both. If the prophecy claimed Immanuel, but the name of the individual is Jesus, the prophecy fails.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

My understanding that a prophecy is simply a statement about something in the future and then later it is fulfilled.

Maybe this is the fundamental issue. For a prophecy to be given evidential weight, specifics must be known and accurate, not assumed or presumed. Date, time, place, who, what, where and when. Very specific and accurate.  

For example if I prophesied “ there will be a stock Based in the USA that doubles in value, that it will be a technology stock with a great number of sales but few employees” I will be right, not because I know the future, but because it's too generic and not exact.

 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

  So is is unlikely that anything of any significance was altered in the New Testament either.

Fundamentally what prevents someone in power from requesting an alteration to the text? It would be quite easy as you mentioned, a supernatural event occurs to the person in power, where they claim superiority over the text right from god. Everyone has faith, thus everyone must believe, thus the text is changed in interpretation.

 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

This was fulfilled about 700 years later and the accounts are given in the gospels.

No this is circular, you need something outside the bible to verify such events occurred, I am not going to take biblical references to prove the bible has accurate historical biblical references.

For example, in this book chapter 1 it states “ I will fly to the moon during a full moon and then I will come back to earth” when you ask who can verify this, I say “ my friend wrote about it here in chapter 6, see that is the proof”, but you have no ability to interview him or figure out if what he wrote was altered or that he even wrote it. By the same logic, you must believe I flew to the moon and came back because both were written in the same book. 

 

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On 1/11/2022 at 10:50 AM, blackbird said:

The virgin birth was a supernatural event just like the creation.  There is no biological explanation.  

Here is an article I found that might give some answers.  I haven't had the chance to read it yet as I've been busy today, but will have a look at it.

The Historical Reliability of the Gospels | Bible.org

Just finished reading it.

The virgin birth is a complete fallacy. Pathenogenisis is impossible in mammals. The so called witnesses, like all the other illiterate fools, believed what they were told. 

Not one word written about it has any degree of accuracy. In fact, Mary had six children and two before that idiot, where's you virginity there? 

Have you ever wondered why all these what we know now impossible events took place in a little  area in the middle East which just so happened to be where some nut got himself killed?

We KNOW these events cannot possibly have happened. Why continue peddling lies. 

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1 hour ago, Colin Norris said:

The virgin birth is a complete fallacy. Pathenogenisis is impossible in mammals. The so called witnesses, like all the other illiterate fools, believed what they were told. 

Not one word written about it has any degree of accuracy. In fact, Mary had six children and two before that idiot, where's you virginity there? 

Have you ever wondered why all these what we know now impossible events took place in a little  area in the middle East which just so happened to be where some nut got himself killed?

We KNOW these events cannot possibly have happened. Why continue peddling lies. 

We are not talking about scientific or biological events.  These are supernatural events recorded in Holy Scripture.  The Bible is full of supernatural events.  Jesus performed many miracles and was raised from the dead.    The reason these things took place in an area in the middle east called Israel is because God chose Abraham and made him the father of Israel.  It all began when Adam and Eve rebelled against God and ate the forbidden fruit.  Since that time all men inherited a corrupt, fallen nature.  The Old Testament is all about how Israel was chosen by God to be God's instrument to bring Jesus, a Jew, into the world to save mankind, to redeem lost who believe in Jesus. Without believing in God and Jesus, there is no salvation, just a lost eternity in hell. See John 3:16 and John 3:36 KJV.  There is forgiveness for those who repent and believe the gospel.  The offer is there, but it doesn't last forever. Now is the day of salvation as the Bible says.  We never know what will happen tomorrow.

The first chapter of the Bible, in Genesis, describes how God created the world and life.  Those who don't believe in God have a serious problem.  See Psalm 14:1 KJV.  It is logical and reasonable to believe the universe required an intelligent designer and Creator.  It is logical that God created mankind for a reason.  The alternative is everything was just some sort of cosmic accident that happened and we are all here through some kind of accident.  Totally illogical.

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In response to the initial topic before it drifted off into religion. Yes the world is trying to pollute the minds of young people with false narratives of the origin and meaning of life. From religious beliefs, commercialism to political ideologies narratives are everywhere. But it does not mean young people are actually falling for baseless ideologies, young people today have more access to information and still have ability to critically think. 

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1 hour ago, Winston said:

Not an accident, maybe learn the science behind it. 

 

There is no science behind it.  Pure speculation by people who don't believe in God's revelation.  So they come up with theories which cannot be proven and based on the false claim that something of infinite complexity can come from nothing.  It is far more reasonable to believe everything had to have a beginning and could not create itself.

What young person in the public school system believes anything but what they've been told by proponents of a big bang or evolution?  What critical thinking is involved in believing that?  None.  It is just accepted as dogma.

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