God created evil for his pleasure. Do you recognize the pleasure of creating and doing evil?

[Marocc]

42 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

You denied that it was evil for god while saying it is evil for man.

I don't remeber  what you're referring to but as you must already understand, whatever God does, everyone will get what they deserve. So if God causes someone a certain hardship, they will never be wronged by God. Man is not like that.

43 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

You show how big of a hypocrite you are. I have no time for your vile ilk.

I know you're running out of arguments. You should study the scripture before you debate it.

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, Marocc said:

You should study the scripture before you debate it.

Debate is more successful if all the debaters have some grasp of logic.  Religious people rarely do, as their entire goal is to protect God and that requires a great deal of illogical and sometimes even delusional thinking.  

[French Patriot]

24 minutes ago, Marocc said:

—as a whole. You cannot try to measure and define the justice

 

Your bible calls you a liar.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Back at you, given that I have read more of the bible than you have.

"I know you're running out of arguments. You should study the scripture before you debate it."

Care to debate against my view that a god who kills when he can cure is an evil prick of a god? 

I did not thing so because you are a moral coward with a corrupted moral sense that forgive god for the same infraction that you condemn for humans.

Typical hypocrite, you are.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Regards

DL

Edited April 18, 2020 by French Patriot

[French Patriot]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Debate is more successful if all the debaters have some grasp of logic.  Religious people rarely do, as their entire goal is to protect God and that requires a great deal of illogical and sometimes even delusional thinking.  

Not to mention a corrupted moral sense.

Regards

DL

[pinky tuscadero]

49 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Debate is more successful if all the debaters have some grasp of logic.  Religious people rarely do, as their entire goal is to protect God and that requires a great deal of illogical and sometimes even delusional thinking.  

Can you re-read what you have wrote and just ponder it.

You are actually saying 96% of the population is not allowed to debate matters, but the religious are the illogical and delusional ones?

[dialamah]

37 minutes ago, pinky tuscadero said:

You are actually saying 96% of the population is not allowed to debate matters, 

Didn't say they weren't "allowed" to debate. 

40 minutes ago, pinky tuscadero said:

but the religious are the illogical and delusional ones?

But I ought to have specified "about religion/God" for the context-challenged among us ...

[Marocc]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Debate is more successful if all the debaters have some grasp of logic

In case of scripture, for one, I'm pretty sure having studied the scripture of which one initiates a debate comes before any attempts at developing identical thought patterns with the opposing party - or do you mean facts rather than logic? Or would you say all past and present religious philosophers also have no grasp of logic – At least not to the same extent as you.

[Marocc]

2 hours ago, French Patriot said:

Your bible calls you a liar.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Back at you, given that I have read more of the bible than you have.

"I know you're running out of arguments. You should study the scripture before you debate it."

Care to debate against my view that a god who kills when he can cure is an evil prick of a god? 

I did not thing so because you are a moral coward with a corrupted moral sense that forgive god for the same infraction that you condemn for humans.

Typical hypocrite, you are.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

I don't believe in the Bible.

I have no idea what you intend with the quotation.

Which part of the Bible have you been studying? Reading isn't enough - it needs to be studied with an effort to understand.

I have said enough with many others about the fault in your lies.

God is not subject to man's judgment.

What is the context for that famous quotation?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Marocc said:

God is not subject to man's judgment.

Rightly or wrongly, those doing the judging decide who is subject to their judgement.  Not those being judged.

[Marocc]

41 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Rightly or wrongly, those doing the judging decide who is subject to their judgement.  Not those being judged.

Psychologically, yes -

[Tdot]

7 hours ago, French Patriot said:

 

Your bible calls you a liar.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Back at you, given that I have read more of the bible than you have.

"I know you're running out of arguments. You should study the scripture before you debate it."

Care to debate against my view that a god who kills when he can cure is an evil prick of a god? 

I did not thing so because you are a moral coward with a corrupted moral sense that forgive god for the same infraction that you condemn for humans.

Typical hypocrite, you are.

Faith is not wanting to know the truth.

Regards

DL

This is pretty sad and pathetic to read, that you feel like you have to post trifling insults at peaceful people who post respectfully to you. Although you are sent here by, Satan, and I am glad to read that members love you.

Here, check out more truths that help clear up your blurry vision:

...

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/god/does-god-punish-us-for-our-sins.html

Do bad things still happen because we sin?

If through Jesus we are forgiven of all sin, does that mean we can now sin with impunity?

Not quite.

The Bible refers to the discipline of the Lord multiple times. Proverbs 3:11-12says, “My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.”

Hebrews 12 explains this in greater depth. Sometimes, it says, bad things that happen to us are a result of God’s discipline. They are not a retribution or punishment for sin; rather, they are a correction, as a parent would correct a child. They are not intended to break down, but rather to increase holiness in the believer (Hebrews 12:10).

There are also societal or earthly consequences of sin. Just because God forgives us of murder doesn’t mean a murderer doesn’t have to serve jail time. Some negative experiences will flow naturally out of poor choices, such as financial hardship after gambling away money. These are not God’s “punishment;” they are natural results of our actions.

Is everything bad that happens to me because God is “disciplining” me?

There are several reasons people might suffer that have nothing to do with discipline.

1. Show God’s Glory

In John 9, Jesus and his disciples encounter a man who has been blind from birth. The disciples ask Jesus, “Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?” (John 9:2)

“‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him’” (John 9:3).

The disciples were operating under a common assumption of the time that any suffering one experienced was the result of sin that had not been confessed and atoned for. Jesus gave an alternate reason: a person might suffer so that God would be glorified. A person might suffer for a time so that they might experience an even greater good in the future.

2. Improve Us and Bring Us Closer to God

When times are good, it’s easy to forget about our need for God, even though He is the one sustaining the very world we live in. It’s easy to become complacent in our relationship with Him.

Thus, Paul writes, “Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope” (Romans 5:3-4).

Suffering helps us to lean on God and improves our character. Thus, sometimes suffering is for this reason rather than as the result of any poor choices.

3. A Result of Following Christ

In John 15:18, Jesus says, “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.” Christians face discrimination, persecution, and even death for their faith. In this case, the bad things that happen are because the Christian is doing something right. Jesus warned that a sinful world would hate those who were “not of the world” (John 17:16).

Paul encourages us to rejoice in these sufferings (as noted above in Romans 5:3-4).

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Tdot

[pinky tuscadero]

7 hours ago, dialamah said:

Didn't say they weren't "allowed" to debate. 

But I ought to have specified "about religion/God" for the context-challenged among us ...

Here it is again for you:

Debate is more successful if all the debaters have some grasp of logic.  Religious people rarely do, as their entire goal is to protect God and that requires a great deal of illogical and sometimes even delusional thinking.  

 

Ok, I gotcha.

Any debate about God/religion is an abject failure unless both parties are atheists.

Now it makes perfect sense, thanks for the clarification.

[betsy]

19 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I forgot to answer this point in my last response to you.  If you still want to forget it, I'll understand, but, we weren't talking about doctrine in this case.  We we were talking about whether or not having religion would prevent one from doing evil more than someone who has no religious beliefs.

Well, I  can say I belong to a religious group, but if I don't really practice it (or if I don't really believe in it) - that definitely wouldn't deter me from doing anything I please (and that includes evil)!   Self-identification doesn't really matter - we can identify ourselves all we want.  We can even delude ourselves to think that we are what we've called ourselves to be! 

You've seen the movie The Godfather Trilogy, right?   Many times?  Well - they are "religious," aren't they?

 

This is what you're not getting:

  WITHOUT FEAR OF GOD (doesn't matter whether you identify as religious or not) - nothing will deter you from doing evil!

 

 

 

Quote

I still maintain the answer is no, and I would postulate that, given religion's intolerance, in many cases,  of those who veer from the rules and regulations of their various manifestations around the world,

 

Well, if you put it that way  - you're practicing intolerance too! 

You're intolerant to those who break our criminal laws - like rapists and murderers! They know the rules!

 

Lol....you're more intolerant and unjust than the God you criticize, if you support................................... ME TOO! 

All it takes for you guys is for a woman to accuse someone of groping her 20 years ago, and you're all for crucifying the guy without any due process! He's automatically guilty!  No one even cares about the family of the guy who end up suffering too -  not even the children - they're guilty of "association!"  Too bad for them to have had him for their dad!  

Perhaps, your intolerance now extends to white people, who are automatically bigot until proven otherwise!   White people are being made to feel guilty for being what they are - WHITE!   

I suppose making one's self look black will not go very well, either!

 

 

 

Quote

the chances of finding nastiness in the name of some God or other are up there with any other motivation. 

 

And that "nastinest" (to put it mildly)  - is done in the name of ......political correctness!  It's the "god" these days!

Lol.  You guys don't even blink about killing a human in his earliest stage of development -

like as if being a fetus isn't a stage of development for all human beings!  You're like cheering spectators in the colliseum - cheering for more blood!

 

How many unborn humans have you guys tortured and  murdered?

 

Don't talk to me about evil, unless you're talking about them!  Pro-choice people are up to their eyeballs in blood!

 

 

And yet here you are - all outraged and spouting off about evil - because believers say the doctrine teaches homosexuality as a sin!  Gimme a break!

What gives you the right to speak for any  sectors of humanity?   That'd be  like Stalin and Hitler  teaching about human rights, and equality and value of human life!  Lol.  It only shows you folks are so shallow - and, you don't even understand what you're on about!

 

At least I know the fetus is a human being - but really, reading some of the cruel and quite cold posts about the unborn in forums - I can't really tell if those posters are human at all.

 

Being dehumanized and oppressed.  It happened to the Jews, and to Blacks.    Think....what if it happens to you?  GOLDEN RULE rings a bell? 

 

So, there, POT.  Stop trying to make  the kettle black when you're up to your lid in soot!  FYI, not all kettles turn black!

 

At least, Christians can say the doctrine teaches us not to slander, not to murder anyone.......................and to be just!

Edited April 19, 2020 by betsy

[betsy]

12 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Rightly or wrongly, those doing the judging decide who is subject to their judgement.  Not those being judged.

 

Lol.   The Creator can do as He pleases with His creation.  No explanation necessary!

An analogy would be an artist!  He can throw away his art in the garbage, who's there to say it's wrong  - that's his prerogative! 

You can scream and curse all you want - but, His Will, will be done.

Edited April 19, 2020 by betsy

[betsy]

19 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I haven't been keeping up, (no time, the line up at Costco yesterday!) but the way I see it, in the same way no-one has any right to try to force a homosexual relationship on someone who doesn't want one, no one has any right to try to prevent a homosexual relationship between two people (or more) who want one.  And if they want to get married, have kids, etc, well, it's the same as anyone else. Why not?

Hating it all, on the other hand, is allowed.

It really is quite irrelevant what Jesus or Allah is reported to have said about it, unless one wants to make it relevant to their own behaviour.

It's so simple.   I guesss it's the simplicity of the notion that bothers some people.

Edit>  If I missed the bit where we all agreed there was nothing wrong with homosexual relations, gay marriage, adoption, etc, and had moved on to a simple theological discussion of the idea, from a historical perspective, I apologise.  Like I said, I didn't have time to read back.

If you live in a democracy, the system allows us to choose the social platforms the candidates offer.  We can choose the candidate that represents our values.  

In that sense, yes we do have the right to enforce our values (through people we elect as leaders) ......same as you have your right to do the same.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by betsy

[Guest]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

If you live in a democracy, the system allows us to choose the social platforms the candidates offer.  We can choose the candidate that represents our values.  

In that sense, yes we do have the right to enforce our values (through people we elect as leaders) ......same as you have your right to do the same.

 

 

I agree with this entirely.  Sometimes we find ourselves disagreeing with laws enacted by our elected governments, and we can work to change them.  We can also describe them how we see them.  For instance, Pakistan is a democracy(shaky, but there at the moment, I think) , but has a law on the books allowing for the death penalty for blasphemy.  I can't see anyone thinking that anything other than an insane, cruel, barbaric law.  You might agree.  I would think the same about the law in Alabama allowing for 99 years in jail for a doctor performing an abortion.  You might disagree.  I would fully support as sane, progressive and compassionate any law that allows me to die with dignity when I want to.  You would almost certainly disagree.

We don't argue about whether or not something is allowed by law.  We can check that on Wikipedia.  We argue about whether it is right or wrong to allow it by law, or by our own moral code.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

 

Lol.   The Creator can do as He pleases with His creation.  No explanation necessary!

An analogy would be an artist!  He can throw away his art in the garbage, who's there to say it's wrong  - that's his prerogative! 

You can scream and curse all you want - but, His Will, will be done.

If there is a creator, he can certainly do as he pleases.  The issue was whether or not he can be judged by humans.  I pretended there was one and I judged him on few upsetting periods in history before I started this sentence.  He didn't come off well, I'm afraid.

Edited April 19, 2020 by bcsapper

[French Patriot]

19 hours ago, Marocc said:

What is the context for that famous quotation?

You do not answer my questions so why should I answer yours?

Is reciprocity not fair play where you come from?

Do mine and I will do yours.

Regards

DL

[French Patriot]

19 hours ago, Marocc said:

God is not subject to man's judgment.

Interesting.

Have you not judged your god to be good and worthy of your wordhip?

If not, why would you follow a bad god?

Regards

DL

[French Patriot]

14 hours ago, Tdot said:

2. Improve Us and Bring Us Closer to God

Now why on earth would you like to get closer to a genocidal moral monster like Yahweh?

Is Hitler your next favorite character?

Regards

DL

[French Patriot]

5 hours ago, betsy said:

WITHOUT FEAR OF GOD (doesn't matter whether you identify as religious or not) - nothing will deter you from doing evil!

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, betsy said:

Well, I  can say I belong to a religious group, but if I don't really practice it (or if I don't really believe in it) - that definitely wouldn't deter me from doing anything I please (and that includes evil)!   Self-identification doesn't really matter - we can identify ourselves all we want.  We can even delude ourselves to think that we are what we've called ourselves to be! 

You've seen the movie The Godfather Trilogy, right?   Many times?  Well - they are "religious," aren't they?

 

This is what you're not getting:

  WITHOUT FEAR OF GOD (doesn't matter whether you identify as religious or not) - nothing will deter you from doing evil!

If you are of the position that you are the only one who can decide whether or not a person is religious, and you make that decision based solely on their actions, such that evil is inversely proportional to religiosity in all cases, judged by you, then I have no argument other than to simply disagree.  You've set it up so you can't lose.

That said, to my mind, there are a lot of evil religious people, a lot of thoroughly decent atheists, and a lot of in-betweeners out there.  I have no numbers, no names and addresses.  One doesn't need religion to be good.

5 hours ago, betsy said:

Well, if you put it that way  - you're practicing intolerance too! 

You're intolerant to those who break our criminal laws - like rapists and murderers! They know the rules!

 

Lol....you're more intolerant and unjust than the God you criticize, if you support................................... ME TOO! 

All it takes for you guys is for a woman to accuse someone of groping her 20 years ago, and you're all for crucifying the guy without any due process! He's automatically guilty!  No one even cares about the family of the guy who end up suffering too -  not even the children - they're guilty of "association!"  Too bad for them to have had him for their dad!  

Perhaps, your intolerance now extends to white people, who are automatically bigot until proven otherwise!   White people are being made to feel guilty for being what they are - WHITE!   

I suppose making one's self look black will not go very well, either!

Absolutely.  I'm talking about intolerance of those who veer from religion's rules, not the law of the land.  Nobody who is not of a religion has any obligation to follow any of its rules.  We all have an obligation to follow the law. (in a democracy, as we discuss in another post)  Even if it's dumb.  We can work to change it, if it's dumb, or we can break it, as civil disobedience.  We have to be willing to pay the price in that case.  Still, we can call them what they are.  As for your examples, I don't disagree.  There is injustice everywhere.  I would just say it happens. 

 

5 hours ago, betsy said:

And that "nastinest" (to put it mildly)  - is done in the name of ......political correctness!  It's the "god" these days!

Lol.  You guys don't even blink about killing a human in his earliest stage of development -

like as if being a fetus isn't a stage of development for all human beings!  You're like cheering spectators in the colliseum - cheering for more blood!

 

How many unborn humans have you guys tortured and  murdered?

 

Don't talk to me about evil, unless you're talking about them!  Pro-choice people are up to their eyeballs in blood!

Basic difference of opinion here.  Evil to me is forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term.  It's her body, not mine or yours.

 

5 hours ago, betsy said:

And yet here you are - all outraged and spouting off about evil - because believers say the doctrine teaches homosexuality as a sin!  Gimme a break!

I don't care if you teach that homosexuality is a sin.  Teach it, and then don't be a homosexual.  Just don't expect anyone else to adhere to such beliefs, if they don't want to.

Both Christians and homosexuals should be allowed to go about their business, each unmolested by the other.  I don't know about Christian homosexuals.  I'm sure they exist.  I just don't know how they deal with it.  I think there are certain Anglican churches that have taken steps to welcome and accommodate homosexual members, but there is a way to go for some.  I know the Church of England is struggling with it at the moment.  (I know some Christians in that church)

 

5 hours ago, betsy said:

At least, Christians can say the doctrine teaches us not to slander, not to murder anyone.......................and to be just!

And were back to my first response here.  If they do, are they bad Christians, or are they not Christians at all? 

Edited April 19, 2020 by bcsapper

[French Patriot]

5 hours ago, betsy said:

How many unborn humans have you guys tortured and  murdered?

How many did your god murder?

What about his torture of King David's baby? Was that justified?

Do you even know the story?

Strange how you have a double moral standard that forgives god for doing the same thing that you condemn man for doing.

If I had a double moral standard like you or even going the other way, you would think me quite immoral would you not?

Regards

DL

 

[French Patriot]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

His Will, will be done.

I do not expect an answer, but what the hell. 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If His Will, will be done. as you claim, that means that none of us will perish as we will all be saved and know the truth.

Right?

Regards

DL

[French Patriot]

36 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

If there is a creator, he can certainly do as he pleases.  The issue was whether or not they can be judged by humans.  I pretended there was one and I judged him on few upsetting periods in history before I started this sentence.  He didn't come off well, I'm afraid.

You cannot judge god if you judge him as evil.

Our friend judged god to be good and that is the only judging allowed.

Her way or the highway.

Typical Christian double moral standard as witnessed and exemplified in real life with this link.

The Christians here have that affliction.

Regards

DL